Who likes the Cipher characters?

[TheVinceKnight]

25 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

It's been terribly frustrating to try and get people to be excited about Cipher having OCs because said OCs are just so bad, though part of that is because they have to try and give the Lord characters the good cards(which they fail at sometimes - coughSeries5Roycough). Thankfully Yuzu makes a decent Main Character for a Whitewings budget deck.

OCs in cipher still bad to this day unfortunately (Only Emma is fine). Yuzu is definitely not decent though... I can tell you that much heh.

I think the better question that should be asked is - Who doesn't like the Cipher characters?

I mean I love em, but I haven't gone round to buying the DLC any time soon due to lack of motivation to do anything in-game. Beat Thabes already and I don't feel it's worth another run at the moment because of the 'bad' gameplay (mostly for maps) in Echoes.

[SoulWeaver]

21 hours ago, TheVinceKnight said:

Yuzu is definitely not decent though... I can tell you that much heh.

I did mention that it was for a budget deck, and as far as budget decks go Yuzu-Whitewings is really good for the price considering the S1 3/2s for the Whitewings are like a buck a card and you can get a 4-4-2 Yuzu set(4 Hero, 4 Sniper, 2 Cost 1) for like $2-3. Admittedly, it would be better with Minerva MC but I built the deck before I could afford to get Minerva and I actually like that I can use Yuzu for something and she can still do fairly well against my friends who play decks like Ike, Anankos, or Soleil, all of which are good.

Other than that, though, I agree wholeheartedly - I've been trying to make Shade do something for a year and a half easy, and RandalLando barely has enough cards to have enough Evades to really even be considered for an MC, though you can do some pretty neat shenanigans with him thanks to Purple everything, like double Manakete Emblem on Turn 2-3 thanks to his 3/2.

[B.Leu]

Eh l'll like them.

Design wise, they so cool, except Yuzu, she is boring.
I particulary like Shade. her black saint clothes are so cool !

Though, I trained them with the Star Ja-whatever until level 20, and they they are horribly average stat-wise, except for Randal. the dude maxed his ATK, SKL and SPD after maxing him, he is sooooo good !
Give him Conrad's post to him, then Pitchworked Cornrad into a Sage.

[Baldrick]

2 hours ago, B.Leu said:

Though, I trained them with the Star Ja-whatever until level 20, and they they are horribly average stat-wise, except for Randal. the dude maxed his ATK, SKL and SPD after maxing him, he is sooooo good !
Give him Conrad's post to him, then Pitchworked Cornrad into a Sage.

Randal has about 20 more levels for his growths to kick in, so that's to be expected.

I haven't bought them yet, I'm waiting until I've tapped everything else of interest. Apart from the novelty, a third Rescue unit look scool.

[Flamy]

On 6/26/2017 at 10:58 PM, SoulWeaver said:

The difficulty I've had with the Cipher 4 is that at best they're mediocre in the TCG - Emma is the only one I've seen used at all by anyone but me, and that's just so they can Bond her and use her Rescue Bond Skill plus she has 30 Support Value. It's been terribly frustrating to try and get people to be excited about Cipher having OCs because said OCs are just so bad, though part of that is because they have to try and give the Lord characters the good cards(which they fail at sometimes - coughSeries5Roycough). Thankfully Yuzu makes a decent Main Character for a Whitewings budget deck.

First off, yes, 85% of cards in every set is shit. That's how it goes.

Fresh Pegasus, Emma, is a great card, because you don't need to deploy her to do anything. With the proper setup, you get free Sky Bonds every turn. Midnight Witch, Shade, sees use in the odd Nohr deck every once in a while.

As for Yuzu, I've no idea why you say a "budget Whitewings deck", because she totally could cut for B-tier.

[SoulWeaver]

3 hours ago, ScarletFlame said:

First off, yes, 85% of cards in every set is (Censored by your friendly neighborhood SoulWeaver just because). That's how it goes.

Fresh Pegasus, Emma, is a great card, because you don't need to deploy her to do anything. With the proper setup, you get free Sky Bonds every turn. Midnight Witch, Shade, sees use in the odd Nohr deck every once in a while.

As for Yuzu, I've no idea why you say a "budget Whitewings deck", because she totally could cut for B-tier.

Yeah, as someone who plays three other TCGs alongside Cipher, I'm definitely no stranger to this unfortunate truth.

That's the one I mentioned in the post you quoted - it's the only reason Emma really sees any play because the rest of her cards are unfortunately not great, though her other Cost 1 occasionally gets played in non-Yellow decks. Witch Shade(RIP Shade not being a playable Witch in Echoes btw) is a decent card, but really shouldn't be played unless the player can't find enough copies of a better Healer or if the player is playing Garon-Risen, in which case yeah, she'll do just fine.

When I talk about the lack of real playability of the Cipher 4, I mean as Main Characters for decks, not just being there filling some kind of support niche. Looking at it that way, Yuzu is the best of the group because of Crane Warrior, Yuzu, which gains 10 ATK whenever she's supported by a Sword, Lance, or Axe card, and allows you to move an ally when she defeats a foe while being supported by a Flier or Mounted Unit. While it may not be the best card Yuzu has, it can be played in a deck with the Whitewings for very cheap, which a lot of people I've talked to have mentioned as being important thanks to needing to import all the cards, and it's a very good beginner-level deck as Yuzu will hit 100 every time she's supported by a Whitewing as long as she's been Class-Changed to Crane Warrior, Yuzu, both offensively and defensively, which is a great peak ATK for beginners to aim for before they start in on all the Rally cards and other shenanigans. Obviously, Princess, Minerva is a better choice, but looking at it as cheap as can be gone Yuzu is a very easy go-to for the Main Character, which is of course what a Budget Deck is looking for, which is what I'm looking for because I don't want to drive people away from the game because all the Deck Lists I bring them are too much to pay for.

[tumut]

I'll probably get them even though their designs are meh.  

[Flamy]

19 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

When I talk about the lack of real playability of the Cipher 4, I mean as Main Characters for decks, not just being there filling some kind of support niche. Looking at it that way, Yuzu is the best of the group because of Crane Warrior, Yuzu, which gains 10 ATK whenever she's supported by a Sword, Lance, or Axe card, and allows you to move an ally when she defeats a foe while being supported by a Flier or Mounted Unit. While it may not be the best card Yuzu has, it can be played in a deck with the Whitewings for very cheap, which a lot of people I've talked to have mentioned as being important thanks to needing to import all the cards, and it's a very good beginner-level deck as Yuzu will hit 100 every time she's supported by a Whitewing as long as she's been Class-Changed to Crane Warrior, Yuzu, both offensively and defensively, which is a great peak ATK for beginners to aim for before they start in on all the Rally cards and other shenanigans. Obviously, Princess, Minerva is a better choice, but looking at it as cheap as can be gone Yuzu is a very easy go-to for the Main Character, which is of course what a Budget Deck is looking for, which is what I'm looking for because I don't want to drive people away from the game because all the Deck Lists I bring them are too much to pay for.

When I say "cuts to B-tier", that's a tier of Champion viability, yanno. :V

Indeed, however, that Crane Warrior, Yuzu, tends to be the iteration of Yuzu used. I know I've seen a deck involving both of her Falchion cards. Can really put on the pressure, with the right deck. I've even seen Vein-Cleaving Violet Blade, Yuzu, be used to get the shock value, but no, generally, it's her Falchion cards people Class Change into.

>Rally cards
>other shenanigans
If I wanted to give a beginner a deck, I'd give him Marth. Easy shit. Or Roy, actually. Roy's a good one.

[SoulWeaver]

8 hours ago, ScarletFlame said:

When I say "cuts to B-tier", that's a tier of Champion viability, yanno. :V

Indeed, however, that Crane Warrior, Yuzu, tends to be the iteration of Yuzu used. I know I've seen a deck involving both of her Falchion cards. Can really put on the pressure, with the right deck. I've even seen Vein-Cleaving Violet Blade, Yuzu, be used to get the shock value, but no, generally, it's her Falchion cards people Class Change into.

>Rally cards
>other shenanigans
If I wanted to give a beginner a deck, I'd give him Marth. Easy (Censored by SoulWeaver because because). Or Roy, actually. Roy's a good one.

Haha, no, I didn't know, my bad!

The problem I've seen with Marth and Roy is, again, cost - I've yet to find Marth for cheap, and Roy's not that much better, plus they're older and can be harder to find, even online. You could in theory play them using just their Starter Deck versions and their Cost 2s, but I guess it depends on the beginner - I met a kid who couldn't figure anything out until I handed him an Ike deck and told him to try that, then bam, somehow LvS Skills made everything click, go figure. Maybe some beginners can make it happen with Yuzu, maybe some can't figure it out without guys they recognize from Smash like Lucina or Corrin, as long as they're getting into the game I guess I don't really care what they play!

[Flamy]

23 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

The problem I've seen with Marth and Roy is, again, cost - I've yet to find Marth for cheap, and Roy's not that much better, plus they're older and can be harder to find, even online.

Alright, time for me to prove you wrong.

Spoiler

B05-001SR	x3	Inheritor of the Sealed Flame, Roy
B05-004SR	x4	Lovely Leader, Lilina
B05-012N	x4	Archer of Pherae, Wolt
B05-023N	x4	Halfbaked Pegasus Knight, Shanna
B05-027HN	x4	Unrestrained Little Lady, Clarine
B05-045N	x4	Innocent Dragon Girl, Fae
B05-039N	x4	Pegasus Knight of Gales, Tate
P05-014PR	x4	Princess of Ostia, Lilina (replaceable by any Lilina card)
B07-002R	x2	Knight of Lycia, Eliwood
B07-008N	x4	Girl of the Plains, Lyn
B07-021HN	x4	Righteous Thief, Matthew
B09-054R	x4	Flame of Prophecy, Roy
B09-055N	x1	General of the Lycian League, Roy
B09-065R	x4	Dark Child, Raigh

Strategy: Constant board control with low-drops early on, and power cards in the endgame.

Some cards can and probably should be swapped out, depending on your pulls/money, but this is a fairly standard deck that's easier on the wallet than most. And look, all these ''''''''''''''''iconic''''''''''''''''' characters everyone loves.

[SoulWeaver]

1 hour ago, ScarletFlame said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

B05-001SR	x3	Inheritor of the Sealed Flame, Roy
B05-004SR	x4	Lovely Leader, Lilina
B05-012N	x4	Archer of Pherae, Wolt
B05-023N	x4	Halfbaked Pegasus Knight, Shanna
B05-027HN	x4	Unrestrained Little Lady, Clarine
B05-045N	x4	Innocent Dragon Girl, Fae
B05-039N	x4	Pegasus Knight of Gales, Tate
P05-014PR	x4	Princess of Ostia, Lilina (replaceable by any Lilina card)
B07-002R	x2	Knight of Lycia, Eliwood
B07-008N	x4	Girl of the Plains, Lyn
B07-021HN	x4	Righteous Thief, Matthew
B09-054R	x4	Flame of Prophecy, Roy
B09-055N	x1	General of the Lycian League, Roy
B09-065R	x4	Dark Child, Raigh

Strategy: Constant board control with low-drops early on, and power cards in the endgame.

Some cards can and probably should be swapped out, depending on your pulls/money, but this is a fairly standard deck that's easier on the wallet than most. And look, all these ''''''''''''''''iconic''''''''''''''''' characters everyone loves.

4 of the SR Lilina? Looking online, that card averages like $25 a pop, and that's just for people who aren't those guys who want signed everything. SR Roy is about half that price a card at most, so that's a lot better, but you're still close on $150 here. Yeah, this is VERY easy on the wallet for a TCG, but in the end a lot of people aren't willing to put down more than another $100 or so on another TCG if they're already dropping cash on Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, or Magic, and people who've never played a TCG before aren't even willing to go that high. The deck is great for a cheap deck, yeah, but dropping Lilina in favor of, say, Spirited Noblewoman, Lyn, who costs around the same as Roy's SR(about half of the SR Lilina, dropping the overall price much closer to $100 even) and is still a useful card, not to mention someone people unfamiliar with Fire Emblem can still recognize thanks to Smash Bros., could be a way to make it even cheaper without necessarily making it less good. Alternatively, you could drop Lilina for Eliwood as your main support for Roy, as Heroic Inheritor of the Blaze, Eliwood can set up some really good Deploy plays with either Roy's SR or R, albeit a somewhat costly setup Bonds-wise with 3 Bonds when using Flame of Prophecy, Roy and 5 Bonds when using Inheritor of the Sealed Flame, Roy. Both changes would require a slight alteration to the basic function of the deck since you wouldn't have Lilina any more, but it would still be a very good deck.

I do like the deck - heck, I might go build that and see how it works if I can get the other guys I play with to lend me their Lilinas - but I'm trying to aim for more like $50 to build decks for newer players so this is a little out of the ballpark I would rather work with. Admittedly, keeping the deck under $50 is going to mean the deck isn't quite as good, but if it gets people interested enough that they start actively working on obtaining better cards despite any increase in price then I'll take it.

[Flamy]

4 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

4 of the SR Lilina?

4 of the SR Lilina, aye. Looking online, much like you, B09-058R Beauteous Prodigal Flame, Lilina, is a cheaper alternative, and retains her ability to powerhit. If you REALLY need to replace SR Roy, S07-001ST Young Lion, Roy, is even cheaper than Lilina, being from a previous set, and can still finish games with Flame of Prophecy, Roy, because that's the big card here, what with the toolbox power and all.

But enough derailing, Emma's the fucking cutest.

[SoulWeaver]

5 minutes ago, ScarletFlame said:

4 of the SR Lilina, aye. Looking online, much like you, B09-058R Beauteous Prodigal Flame, Lilina, is a cheaper alternative, and retains her ability to powerhit. If you REALLY need to replace SR Roy, S07-001ST Young Lion, Roy, is even cheaper than Lilina, being from a previous set, and can still finish games with Flame of Prophecy, Roy, because that's the big card here, what with the toolbox power and all.

Yeah, I run Purple-White with Roy as MC and Dancing in Hoshidan Bloom, Sakura as my draw card, though I tend to have a lot of heavy-spenders Bonds-wise. A bit expensive, but I've yet to have any really disappointing battles using it. Used to run a list similar to yours with Eliwood and Lyn instead of Lilina and Raigh because lucky pulls(and Raigh wasn't out yet), but I traded off my Lyns and decided to go Purple-White to see if Mikoto went good with Roy.

7 minutes ago, ScarletFlame said:

But enough derailing, Emma's the cutest.

"You're such a poop, RandalLando!" broke a hole in my side because I was laughing too hard, and then there's the argument in her C-Support about the pointlessness of practicing the Triangle Attack without partners…definitely the winner for adorability(is that even a word? It is now, I guess). Yuzu was pretty good too once I figured out who her manner of speech reminded me of(Say'ri). People say she's a glass cannon but I haven't had any of those issues with her so I'm not sure if it's just a difficulty thing or the fact that my challenge playthrough(only use Alm, Celica, the 4 Ram Villagers and the Cipher 4 through the whole game) is very grindy so mine might just be stronger than other people's. I think Shade's once again the worst of the group, sadly, she can't seem to get a break even outside the TCG, but hey, even she has Rescue so she's still good.

[Flamy]

16 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

I run Purple-White

Here's the problem with multi-faction decks: Newbies generally don't know when to bond what, so you gotta give 'em a single-faction deck first, before they can get onto the real deals.

As for your deck, Sakura's a terrible card, as she requires an Orb, it flips 3 Bonds, and taps herself just for 3 cards. Mikoto doesn't work in Roy, because you need to put down stuff ASAP. Clarine HN's a better choice, I'd say, but Mikoto does have her uses in fringe cases, such as when you can throw off face-down Bonds. You generally don't have a need for draw power, as losing orbs and drawing from Mage Emblems/Courage/Fate Emblems usually does it for you.

[SoulWeaver]

5 hours ago, ScarletFlame said:

Here's the problem with multi-faction decks: Newbies generally don't know when to bond what, so you gotta give 'em a single-faction deck first, before they can get onto the real deals.

As for your deck, Sakura's a terrible card, as she requires an Orb, it flips 3 Bonds, and taps herself just for 3 cards. Mikoto doesn't work in Roy, because you need to put down stuff ASAP. Clarine HN's a better choice, I'd say, but Mikoto does have her uses in fringe cases, such as when you can throw off face-down Bonds. You generally don't have a need for draw power, as losing orbs and drawing from Mage Emblems/Courage/Fate Emblems usually does it for you.

Eh, true, though there are some exceptions like White-Black as the earlier cards for those two were made to be used together with US skills and the like.

Sakura's not the best, true, but she's the best draw support card I own so I use her for now until I either get my hands on better options or find something I like better with Roy as I usually focus my Roy deck around characters I like rather than playability(I even toyed with a Roy/Ike deck for all of two days just to see how that would work). Really, I'd rather use Sakura as a Main Character because you can seriously wear out other players' patience with her thanks to her and Arete's draw power plus Mikoto's Cost-effective Heals to make it so you can end up with an 8-11 Evade hand by the time your opponent's set up. Never wins, but that wasn't what I was aiming for when I built it.

Yeah, Mikoto isn't the best option, but I actually don't own any Purple Healers except Elen, who costs as much to Heal 2 as Roy's Rally costs so that's out, and I haven't found another color that I can make work with Purple without having to go spend a bunch. Basically, I realized I go through a lot of Bonds per skill use and decided I wanted a Healer who wouldn't get in the way of my other Units using their Bond-heavy skills and Mikoto jumped out at me. She's been pretty useful, but yeah, there are better options - I guess I mostly just use her because I like her.

Also give us the Paralogue Bosses as cards IS I want Nichol.

[Dogla]

I have to say that I don't appreciate them all that well. To me they just come off as kind of gimmicky and too bland in their traits/characters; Emma being the kid that's always kiddying around, Yuzu who's totally not exactly like Effie, Randal who's just the fed up elderly guy trying to do his thing while being dragged about by the group and Shade who's trying to mother everyone together, but in a less overly doting way than Camilla. Admittedly I probably would have appreciated it more if they had expanded on their backstory/origin/homeland, but that's just me I guess.

Don't get me wrong; I like them well enough, I just think they could've gone with a bit less Awakening/Fates-style characters.. am I that old? :x

[SoulWeaver]

5 hours ago, Dogla said:

I have to say that I don't appreciate them all that well. To me they just come off as kind of gimmicky and too bland in their traits/characters; Emma being the kid that's always kiddying around, Yuzu who's totally not exactly like Effie, Randal who's just the fed up elderly guy trying to do his thing while being dragged about by the group and Shade who's trying to mother everyone together, but in a less overly doting way than Camilla. Admittedly I probably would have appreciated it more if they had expanded on their backstory/origin/homeland, but that's just me I guess.

Don't get me wrong; I like them well enough, I just think they could've gone with a bit less Awakening/Fates-style characters.. am I that old? :x

Eh, yeah, it's all opinion and depends on how you look at it, I guess. I think Yuzu's actually not quite as over-the-top about training as LOLcalization Effie, plus there's her A-Support with Shade where she insists the entire army NEEDS face packs so they can all temporarily achieve an enlightened state, which made me laugh. Plus #HeilRationBall.

[Xenomata]

They're good as characters, but I feel their use as actual units is limited since their bases are only slightly better than a base unit who promoted at about level 10 or 13.

Granted they do have a chance to grow with good growth rates, but it feels like if you want to be serious about using any of them, they would need support from Star Jacinth and/or Overclasses to stand up to the Thabes Labrynth, where the games normal units at least have either villager bases, start as Mercenaries/Myrmidons, or starting from the first class in a family of 3.

Now if we're talking JUST the main story, then yeah they're top-tier combatants who can definitely take the place of other worse units.