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Politics and Constitutional Law in Fire Emblem (Spoilers)


Rezzy
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There's been a few discussions here and there about exactly how things like succession and exactly at what point Marth and Ephraim went from Prince to King, but I figured it would be nice to have a spot to analyze specific aspects of the various FE worlds in regards to how their governments work and such, @Hattusili I

Feel free to use historical examples, but I think as a rule, we should refrain from comparisons that are more recent than the last century or so.  That sort of thing belongs in serious discussion, and hopefully things are more likely to stay civil this way.

My first thought was Elincia was likely to become Queen eventually anyway.

Spoiler

Leading up to the events of Path of Radiance, the exposition is that Elincia was raised in secret, because King Ramon's brother Renning, had already been proclaimed as successor.  So, this would lead us to belief that at least one of a few criteria existed:

-Ramon fell deathly ill at some point.

-Ramon had tried for an heir for quite some time and failed.

-Renning was significantly younger than Ramon.

 

I've played PoR several times, and may have missed it, but I don't remember Renning having a wife or kids mentioned.  It seems odd for the one responsible for the continuation of the line not having any kids yet, let alone even being married.  He certainly doesn't mention any when he gets revived, so he seems to have remained single all this time.  It seems to almost be a dereliction of duty.

I don't think there's a canon age for Renning, but he looks to be in his 40s, that would mean he would have been in his 20s when declared heir presumptive.  This is why I thnk Ramon is significantly older than Renning, maybe by 20 years.  If Ramon was also in his 20s and in good health, there would have been no pressing need to name him his successor, since he still would have had plenty of time to have a kid, but imagine a Ramon in his 40s, with his wife about the same age, assumed to be unable to conceive after decades of trying, and the king falls ill?  That would be the only scenario I could imagine he would look to his younger brother to carry on his line.  Then the king miraculously recovers and his wife suddenly becomes pregnant.

I'm not sure how patriarchical Tellius is, and Begnion seems to be just fine having an Empress, but now there's a young Princess who would otherwise be the next Queen.  Having the offspring be a daughter seems to make more sense with keeping Renning as heir, since most medieval nations preferred Kings if possible, but now we have two possible heirs.  If Tellius is anything like Medieval Europe, the life expectancy of a noble is about 60, so you really want to have your heirs be born by your 40s, since leaving a nation with a child ruler is almost worse than leaving no heir at all.

As stated Renning felt no rush to make children, we don't know if this is due to conception troubles or not liking women, there are historical examples of both, like in England's case Richard II or William II.  But we still have the issue of why Elincia was still a state secret, if Renning showed no signs of having children of his own, why not just say he can be the next King, and Eliincia is his heir?  That way, they could at least plan a political marriage for her and bolster an alliance with someone.  Maybe if Elincia had been married to a powerful Begnion Senator, Daein would have been less likely to invade.

Others feel free to leave your insights.  It can be a bit fun to pick apart how these worlds are supposed to work behind the scenes.

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I cannot believe you actually made this thread, haha. I love you. Now if only you'd let the Roman Empire into your heart.

On the topic of Elincia.
The Kingdom of Crimea at the time of King Ramon was still quite a young nation, and did not possess sovereignty (being a tributary state to the Empire of Begnion). It is not uncommon for young kingdoms to have less strict laws of genetical succession than established kingdoms (for example, the kingship in the Roman Kingdom was purely elective, and the system employed in the Kingdom of England prior to William the Conqueror was a mix of genetics, appointment and election). 
In Radiant Dawn, we see that there is a Council of Nobles in Crimea. I think its function is comparable to the Witenagemot in the early Kingdom of England: its primary function is to act as an advisory body to the king, but it is also charged with taking over the king's duties in case of an interregnum. During such an interregnum, the Witenagemot even had the power to elect a new king.

I think Crimea had a preference for an established royal line with genetic succession, but there was no duty on the King or his heirs to have children, as the Council of Nobles could always elect a new King if the kingship became vacant with no heirs.

As to why Elincia's existence was kept a secret... It was to prevent turmoil in the nation. King Ramon had already named Renning his heir.
If Elincia's existence were made public and she were named Ramon's heir instead of Renning, surely there'd be outcry among Renning's supporters. Unrest, in the worst case civil war, would likely follow.
If Elincia's existence were made public but Renning retained as Ramon's heir, there'd be a good chance Renning's opponents would seize the opportunity to attack Renning and demand Elincia be named Ramon's successor. Unrest, in the worst case civil war, would likely follow.
If Elincia's existence were kept secret until Renning was King and it was apparent that he'd have no heirs, and her existence were made public then and she'd be named his heir then, surely the Council of Nobles would protest. They were looking forward to electing a new King themselves, only to have some secret kid snatch that away from them. We already saw a lot of opposition from the Council of Nobles to Elincia's succession in Radiant Dawn - this was when Elincia had liberated Crimea. Imagine the opposition from the Council if Elincia were not the liberator of Crimea, but just some secret kid that Renning "uses to rob the Council of its power," as Elincia's opponents would surely call it. This would be the worst scenario.

So if the Council of Nobles really does function like the Witenagemot, keeping Elincia's existence a secret forever was likely the safest option. Elincia was not supposed to become Queen of Crimea under any circumstances. 
She only became Queen because a "return of the king" scenario happened. The Kingdom falls, with the entire royal family dead and the people oppressed by the occupant's regime. Then suddenly a miracle occurs: an unkown heir to the dead King pops up and saves the country and its people in their hour of need. It's similar to Aragorn in The Lord of the Rings or, to use a real-world example, the folk tales surrounding Emperor Constantine XI in Turkish-ruled Greece. Of course the people would welcome this savior as their King (or in this case Queen), leaving the Council of Nobles with no real choice.

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7 minutes ago, Hattusili I said:

I cannot believe you actually made this thread, haha. I love you. Now if only you'd let the Roman Empire into your heart.

On the topic of Elincia.
The Kingdom of Crimea at the time of King Ramon was still quite a young nation, and did not possess sovereignty (being a tributary state to the Empire of Begnion). It is not uncommon for young kingdoms to have less strict laws of genetical succession than established kingdoms (for example, the kingship in the Roman Kingdom was purely elective, and the system employed in the Kingdom of England prior to William the Conqueror was a mix of genetics, appointment and election). 
In Radiant Dawn, we see that there is a Council of Nobles in Crimea. I think its function is comparable to the Witenagemot in the early Kingdom of England: its primary function is to act as an advisory body to the king, but it is also charged with taking over the king's duties in case of an interregnum. During such an interregnum, the Witenagemot even had the power to elect a new king.

I think Crimea had a preference for an established royal line with genetic succession, but there was no duty on the King or his heirs to have children, as the Council of Nobles could always elect a new King if the kingship became vacant with no heirs.

As to why Elincia's existence was kept a secret... It was to prevent turmoil in the nation. King Ramon had already named Renning his heir.
If Elincia's existence were made public and she were named Ramon's heir instead of Renning, surely there'd be outcry among Renning's supporters. Unrest, in the worst case civil war, would likely follow.
If Elincia's existence were made public but Renning retained as Ramon's heir, there'd be a good chance Renning's opponents would seize the opportunity to attack Renning and demand Elincia be named Ramon's successor. Unrest, in the worst case civil war, would likely follow.
If Elincia's existence were kept secret until Renning was King and it was apparent that he'd have no heirs, and her existence were made public then and she'd be named his heir then, surely the Council of Nobles would protest. They were looking forward to electing a new King themselves, only to have some secret kid snatch that away from them. We already saw a lot of opposition from the Council of Nobles to Elincia's succession in Radiant Dawn - this was when Elincia had liberated Crimea. Imagine the opposition from the Council if Elincia were not the liberator of Crimea, but just some secret kid that Renning "uses to rob the Council of its power," as Elincia's opponents would surely call it. This would be the worst scenario.

So if the Council of Nobles really does function like the Witenagemot, keeping Elincia's existence a secret forever was likely the safest option. Elincia was not supposed to become Queen of Crimea under any circumstances. 
She only became Queen because a "return of the king" scenario happened. The Kingdom falls, with the entire royal family dead and the people oppressed by the occupant's regime. Then suddenly a miracle occurs: an unkown heir to the dead King pops up and saves the country and its people in their hour of need. It's similar to Aragorn in The Lord of the Rings or, to use a real-world example, the folk tales surrounding Emperor Constantine XI in Turkish-ruled Greece. Of course the people would welcome this savior as their King (or in this case Queen), leaving the Council of Nobles with no real choice.

I suppose the council not wanting its power supplanted would be a good explanation for Elincia being kept secret.  It makes me think they were probably the ones who proclaimed Renning the successor in the first place.  Ramon was probably on his perceived death bed and they jumped the gun on naming the nex king.

 

For another thing, Berkut from Echoes being engaged to Rinea makes little sense from a political standpoint.  The heir to an empire is simply too eligible a bachelor to not be married for alliance purposes.  Of course there are exceptions, like Justinian of the Byzantine Empire or Edward IV of England simply whoever the heck they want, but it seems odd that Berkut's marriage had not been arranged for him already.  The ideal marriage might have been to Minerva, actually, wedding the sovereign Queen of Macedon could make a powerful joining of those two countries.  He could have even married Maria, to lesser effect.  There are plenty of eligible bachelorettes across the sea, but the Empire seems content to throw away his betrothal on a lesser noble of the same nation with no tangible benefit.  The only explanation I can think of is that Rudolf simply doesn't care, since he knows that Alm is the true heir anyway.

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9 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I suppose the council not wanting its power supplanted would be a good explanation for Elincia being kept secret.  It makes me think they were probably the ones who proclaimed Renning the successor in the first place.  Ramon was probably on his perceived death bed and they jumped the gun on naming the nex king.

That's an interesting interpretation. I never saw it that way. I always thought Ramon named Renning his heir voluntarily because he thought he couldn't have children of his own.

Though that begs the question why he'd officially name Renning his heir. Renning was his only living relative, so he'd succeed him anyway after his death. So why was the affirmation needed? It didn't have any benefits; it ended up only complicating the situation when Ramon ended up getting a child after all.

Maybe it was just something Ramon didn't think through very well. But there could be a different explanation.
I'm supposing that Crimean succession law was a matter of law of custom. Now as Crimea was still a young nation at this time, there could be discussion as to what the law of custom actually was. Of course King Ramon would say that the law of custom was that the King must be succeeded by his closest living relative; only if the King has no living relatives does the Council of Nobles elect a new King. But I could imagine people on the Council of Nobles claiming that the law of custom holds that the King must be succeeded by his eldest child; if the King has no children, the Council of Nobles elects a new King.
The affirmation of Renning as his heir may have been a move by King Ramon to settle this (potential) dispute.

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You do make a lot of good points on the Crimea situation- I always found it odd that Renning isn't said to have had any children- the main branch of the Crimean royal (assuming there are cadet ones too) is in a pretty precarious situation as is- and that is something no monarch in reality would ever want. Your solution which wouldn't require Elincia to be kept secret is pretty logical too- unfortunately "mysterious girl you suddenly encounter" is a cliche which IS thinks actually works. 

 

Now to a topic I've ruminated on- Begnion:

As for your mention of Begnion and its Empresses. We never hear of a male Apostle, so we can assume that Begnion ever since Yoram the 1st Apostle (which is the vast majority of its history) females alone are qualified to be Apostles. In the Kingdom of Begnion pre-Yoram (-131 to -95) you could have a ruler of either sex, because we know Altina was the first ruler, and somewhere later along the line (we're never told when exactly) Soane the White Lion and fellow Hero of Ashera ruled as King. It's stated in the latest two Tellius artbooks that Begnion started with alternation between Laguz and Beorc rulers- so perhaps the Begnion Kingdom pre-Yoram was an elective monarch. (I'm assuming Yoram's claims to divinity changes everything- maybe not all at once, but surely at a rapid pace, for in 95 years after she becomes know the Apostle, the possibly elective king/queendom is replaced with a hereditary empire.) Altina I hypothesize stepped down when she became pregnant and had to take care of her child.

I wouldn't rule out the indirect male rule in Begnion once the Apostle title and later its secular equivalent seemingly always wedded to it until Sanaki- Empress- led to the highest of positions in the realm being exclusively for women. The Senate does try to render Sanaki a puppet ruler, and given tension between the Senate and Apostle is said to have existed for a long time- there probably have been Apostles-Empresses who were but puppet rulers, and we know at least one was killed by the Senate due to feuding with it. While the Holy Guard is entirely women too, misogynist men rule the Senate and the aristocracy, and probably much of the rest of regular army too (but Veyona is proof that not all of it is).

While we never hear of males born to the Apostle line, assuming no magic genetics are at work- there has to have been males born the the Apostle line. And I'd wager that not being able to claim the title of Apostle-Empress didn't stop some of them from achieving political power under the guise of regent or some other special office while their sister/daughter/niece was naught but a nominal ruler.

Also IS never in any FE seems to deal in second cousins, barring whatever Chulainn is supposed to be, and one boss in Binding Blade. Given what we know of how the Brand- I'd think it possible that some of Sanaki's second cousins (if she has any) would be able to hear the Goddess's voice, and males included. Yet as no one in Begnion knows a real Apostle has to be Branded, it's possible they just assumed that hearing the Goddess's voice was innate to all females in Altina's lineage.

 

19 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

The ideal marriage might have been to Minerva, actually, wedding the sovereign Queen of Macedon could make a powerful joining of those two countries.  He could have even married Maria, to lesser effect.  There are plenty of eligible bachelorettes across the sea, but the Empire seems content to throw away his betrothal on a lesser noble of the same nation with no tangible benefit.  The only explanation I can think of is that Rudolf simply doesn't care, since he knows that Alm is the true heir anyway.

Well I guess it depends on the state of civilization in Archanea and Valentia. Given the smallness of Archanean states, and what seems to be vast tracts of unorganized lands in the northern regions (basically anything north of Khadein and Aurelis), I'd say things are too primitive in Archanea for them to be able to need to send a royal aboard. Or rather, to express myself more clearly- Archanea is not so internally unified nor technology sufficiently advanced for it and Valentia to have strong constant connections which would make either fear each other out of worries of invasion and conquest, nor be able to provide aid in case of war. If Macedon fought Archanea- logistics would be too imposing and keep your hypothetical Emperor Berkut from sending his sister-in-law Minerva Queen of Macedon (he married Maria) effective military support. And why would Minerva wed her sister to a guy across the ocean if she couldn't get any tangible benefits from it? She'd be better off wedding Maria to one of her more boisterous Macedonian nobles- or Marth or Yubello or a cadet branch of the Archanean or Aureiian royal family. Likewise, Rudolf would have been better giving Berkut a daughter of Desaix or Slayde.

 

 

I like this kind of macrocosmic geopolitical stuff- I once wrote some Jugdrali fanfiction dedicated to exploring the status of the Church of Bragi in the various countries. And another bit on the history of Nohrian expansion and the various provinces, their climate and percentage of the total population.

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19 minutes ago, Hattusili I said:

That's an interesting interpretation. I never saw it that way. I always thought Ramon named Renning his heir voluntarily because he thought he couldn't have children of his own.

Though that begs the question why he'd officially name Renning his heir. Renning was his only living relative, so he'd succeed him anyway after his death. So why was the affirmation needed? It didn't have any benefits; it ended up only complicating the situation when Ramon ended up getting a child after all.

Maybe it was just something Ramon didn't think through very well. But there could be a different explanation.
I'm supposing that Crimean succession law was a matter of law of custom. Now as Crimea was still a young nation at this time, there could be discussion as to what the law of custom actually was. Of course King Ramon would say that the law of custom was that the King must be succeeded by his closest living relative; only if the King has no living relatives does the Council of Nobles elect a new King. But I could imagine people on the Council of Nobles claiming that the law of custom holds that the King must be succeeded by his eldest child; if the King has no children, the Council of Nobles elects a new King.
The affirmation of Renning as his heir may have been a move by King Ramon to settle this (potential) dispute.

The succession question reminds me a bit of Augustus Caesar prematurely naming various heirs, only to make the situation more awkward and ruffling feathers.

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

You do make a lot of good points on the Crimea situation- I always found it odd that Renning isn't said to have had any children- the main branch of the Crimean royal (assuming there are cadet ones too) is in a pretty precarious situation as is- and that is something no monarch in reality would ever want. Your solution which wouldn't require Elincia to be kept secret is pretty logical too- unfortunately "mysterious girl you suddenly encounter" is a cliche which IS thinks actually works. 

 

Now to a topic I've ruminated on- Begnion:

As for your mention of Begnion and its Empresses. We never hear of a male Apostle, so we can assume that Begnion ever since Yoram the 1st Apostle (which is the vast majority of its history) females alone are qualified to be Apostles. In the Kingdom of Begnion pre-Yoram (-131 to -95) you could have a ruler of either sex, because we know Altina was the first ruler, and somewhere later along the line (we're never told when exactly) Soane the White Lion and fellow Hero of Ashera ruled as King. It's stated in the latest two Tellius artbooks that Begnion started with alternation between Laguz and Beorc rulers- so perhaps the Begnion Kingdom pre-Yoram was an elective monarch. (I'm assuming Yoram's claims to divinity changes everything- maybe not all at once, but surely at a rapid pace, for in 95 years after she becomes know the Apostle, the possibly elective king/queendom is replaced with a hereditary empire.) Altina I hypothesize stepped down when she became pregnant and had to take care of her child.

I wouldn't rule out the indirect male rule in Begnion once the Apostle title and later its secular equivalent seemingly always wedded to it until Sanaki- Empress- led to the highest of positions in the realm being exclusively for women. The Senate does try to render Sanaki a puppet ruler, and given tension between the Senate and Apostle is said to have existed for a long time- there probably have been Apostles-Empresses who were but puppet rulers, and we know at least one was killed by the Senate due to feuding with it. While the Holy Guard is entirely women too, misogynist men rule the Senate and the aristocracy, and probably much of the rest of regular army too (but Veyona is proof that not all of it is).

While we never hear of males born to the Apostle line, assuming no magic genetics are at work- there has to have been males born the the Apostle line. And I'd wager that not being able to claim the title of Apostle-Empress didn't stop some of them from achieving political power under the guise of regent or some other special office while their sister/daughter/niece was naught but a nominal ruler.

Also IS never in any FE seems to deal in second cousins, barring whatever Chulainn is supposed to be, and one boss in Binding Blade. Given what we know of how the Brand- I'd think it possible that some of Sanaki's second cousins (if she has any) would be able to hear the Goddess's voice, and males included. Yet as no one in Begnion knows a real Apostle has to be Branded, it's possible they just assumed that hearing the Goddess's voice was innate to all females in Altina's lineage.

 

Well I guess it depends on the state of civilization in Archanea and Valentia. Given the smallness of Archanean states, and what seems to be vast tracts of unorganized lands in the northern regions (basically anything north of Khadein and Aurelis), I'd say things are too primitive in Archanea for them to be able to need to send a royal aboard. Or rather, to express myself more clearly- Archanea is not so internally unified nor technology sufficiently advanced for it and Valentia to have strong constant connections which would make either fear each other out of worries of invasion and conquest, nor be able to provide aid in case of war. If Macedon fought Archanea- logistics would be too imposing and keep your hypothetical Emperor Berkut from sending his sister-in-law Minerva Queen of Macedon (he married Maria) effective military support. And why would Minerva wed her sister to a guy across the ocean if she couldn't get any tangible benefits from it? She'd be better off wedding Maria to one of her more boisterous Macedonian nobles- or Marth or Yubello or a cadet branch of the Archanean or Aureiian royal family. Likewise, Rudolf would have been better giving Berkut a daughter of Desaix or Slayde.

 

 

I like this kind of macrocosmic geopolitical stuff- I once wrote some Jugdrali fanfiction dedicated to exploring the status of the Church of Bragi in the various countries. And another bit on the history of Nohrian expansion and the various provinces, their climate and percentage of the total population.

For Begnion's Apostle, I'm thinking that only women were able to hear the voice.  It makes sense, since historically Oracles like Delphi were predominantly women.

 

It's tough to say how easy travel between the two continents would be.  It's close enough for the Whitewings to travel there and Camus to wash ashore without dying first.

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Actually, King Ramon was killed by Ashnard during at the timeline of Path of Radiance. Also, I am not entirely sure about the politics in Fire Emblem series. I do remembered that there's those two Governors from Etruria did sided with Bern and the king of Etruria didn't decided to go allying with Bern to fight of Roy's army, I totally think that's might possibly one of the Politics in the Fire Emblem series that I know so far.

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This is an interesting topic. Here's one thing I sort of didn't like about Mystery of the Emblem. I know that the nobles under Nyna wanted her to produce an heir, but the fact that the only 2 candidates were Marth and Hardin seems more like political maneuvering on the part of Gharnef. Even though he was really young, Jubelo would probably have been the best choice, as it shows that Archanea and Grust have put their differences aside, and Jubelo certainly wouldn't have the same feelings Hardin did. Literally the only other male ruler on the continent was Merric, and Nyna probably wouldn't want to break up his relationship with Elice. Granted, if Michalis had revealed his survival prior to Mystery of the Emblem, she could've married him, too, although he would just remind her more of Camus. Granted, one could say Nyna was fucked anyway because she gave away the Fire Emblem, but it only did that because her ancestor was a greedy bastard and dismantled it.

Another interesting thing is why Emmeryn wasn't just a throne warmer for Chrom? She may also have the Brand of the Exalt, but in no way was she able to commit to any sort of competent foreign policy. Granted, Ylisse seems to have a lot of problems that go virtually unnoticed, like the corrupt Hierarch in Chapter 7 (he's a priest of Naga, why would he betray Emmeryn to known Grima worshippers?), a court of public opinion (Maribelle's family lost a lot of their wealth when he father went before a magistrate, even though he was cleared of stealing from the treasury.) Lastly, the standing army is a very small volunteer band of landed nobles, scholars, commoners, and the Prince and Princess. A royal would only ever need to be on the battlefield in the case of a major war, but Emmeryn is established as a strict pacifist (which, in the medieval times, is not something you could afford if your rival has it out for you literally forever, like Plegia.)

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19 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

Actually, King Ramon was killed by Ashnard during at the timeline of Path of Radiance. Also, I am not entirely sure about the politics in Fire Emblem series. I do remembered that there's those two Governors from Etruria did sided with Bern and the king of Etruria didn't decided to go allying with Bern to fight of Roy's army, I totally think that's might possibly one of the Politics in the Fire Emblem series that I know so far.

Ashnard killed Ramon, but we were discussing the setting before that happened and the reasoning behind Elinicia being a secret and Renning being the heir.

9 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

This is an interesting topic. Here's one thing I sort of didn't like about Mystery of the Emblem. I know that the nobles under Nyna wanted her to produce an heir, but the fact that the only 2 candidates were Marth and Hardin seems more like political maneuvering on the part of Gharnef. Even though he was really young, Jubelo would probably have been the best choice, as it shows that Archanea and Grust have put their differences aside, and Jubelo certainly wouldn't have the same feelings Hardin did. Literally the only other male ruler on the continent was Merric, and Nyna probably wouldn't want to break up his relationship with Elice. Granted, if Michalis had revealed his survival prior to Mystery of the Emblem, she could've married him, too, although he would just remind her more of Camus. Granted, one could say Nyna was fucked anyway because she gave away the Fire Emblem, but it only did that because her ancestor was a greedy bastard and dismantled it.

Another interesting thing is why Emmeryn wasn't just a throne warmer for Chrom? She may also have the Brand of the Exalt, but in no way was she able to commit to any sort of competent foreign policy. Granted, Ylisse seems to have a lot of problems that go virtually unnoticed, like the corrupt Hierarch in Chapter 7 (he's a priest of Naga, why would he betray Emmeryn to known Grima worshippers?), a court of public opinion (Maribelle's family lost a lot of their wealth when he father went before a magistrate, even though he was cleared of stealing from the treasury.) Lastly, the standing army is a very small volunteer band of landed nobles, scholars, commoners, and the Prince and Princess. A royal would only ever need to be on the battlefield in the case of a major war, but Emmeryn is established as a strict pacifist (which, in the medieval times, is not something you could afford if your rival has it out for you literally forever, like Plegia.)

I forget Nyna's exact age, but having a decade or so between spouses in a political marriage is not unprecedented.

 

Royals going into battle was pretty common in the Middle Ages, they often had a lot to prove, since a prospective king was expected to be both a warrior and a ruler.  If they only waited for major wars, they would be too inexperienced to put up much of a fight.  Emmeryn was to naively pacifistic, bordering on stupidity.  You can only be as peaceful as your neighbors let you be.

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Alright, well, politics in Begnion is definitely what I've given the most thought to. Starting with the obvious, I'd say it's clear that there has been a very longstanding conflict between the Senate and the Monarchy, likely inspired by the Roman Empire, although in the case of Begnion the monarchy came first and the Senate later, so hardly a 1:1 translation. So I think it's safe to assume that the Senate was not in place during the time of the Begnion Kingdom. This is going into headcanon territory, but I think it's been on the political agenda of the Apostles for a very long time to abolish slavery, as a means of breaking the power of the Senate. The Senate is essentially entirely made up of slaveholders, and, in a society with slaves, and specifically foreign slaves, this implies that slavery is both a large part of the army and a motive for conquest. The Begnion military seems to be firmly Monarchiet, too, as Zelgius puts on a front of supporting Sanaki and it's mostly made up of lower class humans. Another parallel with the Roman Empire: as the Roman Republic expanded, the slave population of the Republic from conquered areas grew, which both increased the power of the aristocracy(as suddenly they had access to a part of the economy that normal people didn't) and increasingly made the only way the poor could find success being the army. It's reasonable to assume that the same thing happened in Begnion, and the Apostles would have to be fools not to exploit it. Thus, I'd argue from a vaguely headcanon perspective that the fight to abolish slavery was as much a struggle between the monarchy and peasantry on the one hand and the Senate on the other as it was about abolishing slavery. With slavery being abolished in practice as well as in theory by the end of RD Begnion could either become an enlightened absolutist monarchy or a constitutional monarchy but the era of aristocratic dominance is over.

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17 minutes ago, blah the Prussian said:

 With slavery being abolished in practice as well as in theory by the end of RD Begnion could either become an enlightened absolutist monarchy or a constitutional monarchy but the era of aristocratic dominance is over.

It depends on which of Misaha's granddaughters rule. Micaiah wouldn't be very trusting of a parliament, as uninformed parliamentarians could do just as much damage as the previously deposed senators, whereas Sanaki would try to give both common citizens and former slaves an avenue for her to hear them better. However, there is ONE obstacle still in the way, but hopefully he's far too vain to realize how obstructive he could be to the restructuring of Begnion... if he doesn't end up roped into rebuilding the Kingdom of Serenes to look at heron laguz all day.

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On 25-6-2017 at 1:43 PM, Hylian Air Force said:

This is an interesting topic. Here's one thing I sort of didn't like about Mystery of the Emblem. I know that the nobles under Nyna wanted her to produce an heir, but the fact that the only 2 candidates were Marth and Hardin seems more like political maneuvering on the part of Gharnef. Even though he was really young, Jubelo would probably have been the best choice, as it shows that Archanea and Grust have put their differences aside, and Jubelo certainly wouldn't have the same feelings Hardin did. Literally the only other male ruler on the continent was Merric, and Nyna probably wouldn't want to break up his relationship with Elice. Granted, if Michalis had revealed his survival prior to Mystery of the Emblem, she could've married him, too, although he would just remind her more of Camus. Granted, one could say Nyna was fucked anyway because she gave away the Fire Emblem, but it only did that because her ancestor was a greedy bastard and dismantled it.

As much as Nyna and Marth may have put their differences with Grust aside, I think the general opinion among the people and nobility of Archanea was still resentment towards Grust and Macedon. I don't think they would have accepted Nyna marrying Jubelo - let alone her marrying Michalis, the hated tyrant from the last war. 
Also, wasn't it Wendell who ruled Khadein at that time? On top of doubts concerning his fertility and how much longer he still had to live, I don't think he was very interested in marriage, having children or being a king. 

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On 6/24/2017 at 2:26 PM, Rezzy said:

There's been a few discussions here and there about exactly how things like succession and exactly at what point Marth and Ephraim went from Prince to King, but I figured it would be nice to have a spot to analyze specific aspects of the various FE worlds in regards to how their governments work and such, @Hattusili I

Feel free to use historical examples, but I think as a rule, we should refrain from comparisons that are more recent than the last century or so.  That sort of thing belongs in serious discussion, and hopefully things are more likely to stay civil this way.

My first thought was Elincia was likely to become Queen eventually anyway.

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Leading up to the events of Path of Radiance, the exposition is that Elincia was raised in secret, because King Ramon's brother Renning, had already been proclaimed as successor.  So, this would lead us to belief that at least one of a few criteria existed:

-Ramon fell deathly ill at some point.

-Ramon had tried for an heir for quite some time and failed.

-Renning was significantly younger than Ramon.

 

I've played PoR several times, and may have missed it, but I don't remember Renning having a wife or kids mentioned.  It seems odd for the one responsible for the continuation of the line not having any kids yet, let alone even being married.  He certainly doesn't mention any when he gets revived, so he seems to have remained single all this time.  It seems to almost be a dereliction of duty.

I don't think there's a canon age for Renning, but he looks to be in his 40s, that would mean he would have been in his 20s when declared heir presumptive.  This is why I thnk Ramon is significantly older than Renning, maybe by 20 years.  If Ramon was also in his 20s and in good health, there would have been no pressing need to name him his successor, since he still would have had plenty of time to have a kid, but imagine a Ramon in his 40s, with his wife about the same age, assumed to be unable to conceive after decades of trying, and the king falls ill?  That would be the only scenario I could imagine he would look to his younger brother to carry on his line.  Then the king miraculously recovers and his wife suddenly becomes pregnant.

I'm not sure how patriarchical Tellius is, and Begnion seems to be just fine having an Empress, but now there's a young Princess who would otherwise be the next Queen.  Having the offspring be a daughter seems to make more sense with keeping Renning as heir, since most medieval nations preferred Kings if possible, but now we have two possible heirs.  If Tellius is anything like Medieval Europe, the life expectancy of a noble is about 60, so you really want to have your heirs be born by your 40s, since leaving a nation with a child ruler is almost worse than leaving no heir at all.

As stated Renning felt no rush to make children, we don't know if this is due to conception troubles or not liking women, there are historical examples of both, like in England's case Richard II or William II.  But we still have the issue of why Elincia was still a state secret, if Renning showed no signs of having children of his own, why not just say he can be the next King, and Eliincia is his heir?  That way, they could at least plan a political marriage for her and bolster an alliance with someone.  Maybe if Elincia had been married to a powerful Begnion Senator, Daein would have been less likely to invade.

Others feel free to leave your insights.  It can be a bit fun to pick apart how these worlds are supposed to work behind the scenes.

I think Ephraim became king after you retake Castle Renais in Chapter 16

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I imagine this working like watered down, kid-friendly game of thrones. Minus all the explicit gore and torture and defiant sex along the way--the throne is yours when you have the power to take it. Less a story of legal formalism, and more a story of might-makes-right. There is no law-above-kings; The law is whatever those who have the power to rule and control say it is. And if a ruling house is overthrown, the law changes.

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23 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

I imagine this working like watered down, kid-friendly game of thrones. Minus all the explicit gore and torture and defiant sex along the way--the throne is yours when you have the power to take it. Less a story of legal formalism, and more a story of might-makes-right. There is no law-above-kings; The law is whatever those who have the power to rule and control say it is. And if a ruling house is overthrown, the law changes.

So for example, Ephraim became the King of Renais not when Fado died, but when Orson died and you retook Castle Renais? Or Elincia became Queen of Crimea when Ashnard died and not when Ramon died? If that's the case, I completely agree with you except about succession when your Royal Family isn't overthrown, in which case I'd imagine it's either firstborn male child like it was in medieval times.

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1 hour ago, Weeping__Dalek said:

So for example, Ephraim became the King of Renais not when Fado died, but when Orson died and you retook Castle Renais? Or Elincia became Queen of Crimea when Ashnard died and not when Ramon died? If that's the case, I completely agree with you except about succession when your Royal Family isn't overthrown, in which case I'd imagine it's either firstborn male child like it was in medieval times.

Yeah, something like that.

We get the clearest picture of how succession within an unbroken line works with Ylisse. 

You  have a King. The King has three children from oldest to youngest: Emmeryn (Female), Chrom (Male), and Lissa (Female). 

The King dies--the throne goes to Emmeryn.  From this we understand that age takes precedence over gender; the throne goes to the King's eldest child, regardless of sex.

Chrom has two children from oldest to youngest: Lucina (female) and then either a younger son or daughter depending on who he marries. 

Lucina, it is understood, is next in line for the throne if Chrom dies. Not Lissa. From this its understood that the sitting King's heirs take precedence over the King's younger brother's and sisters. (Lissa presumably gets the throne if Chrom dies without children, or if Chrom's children die before Lissa and they have not themselves had children. Then after Lissa--the next exalt would be Owain)

So the order of precedence for succession would be:

1) King's eldest Child, and the heirs of their body
2) King's younger Children, and the heirs of their body
3) King's eldest brother or sister, and the heirs of their body
4) King's younger brother or sister, and the heirs of their body

Consider also the succession dispute in Caelien, in the beginning of FE7.

...Lundgren gets the throne if and only if Lyndis dies, or Lyndis is not recognized as the grandaughter of the sitting Marquess. (i.e. heirs take precedence over brothers and sisters. no preference for males.)

There's also the matter with the succession in Ostia; Hector takes the throne after his elder brother Uther dies (it is never mentioned that Uther had a wife or children; we may therefore assume that the throne passed to his younger sibling, Hector, ONLY because Uther died without heir).

The Laguz got it right, tbh. Just beat the shit out of each other and give the throne to whoever comes out on top.    




 

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36 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Yeah, something like that.

We get the clearest picture of how succession within an unbroken line works with Ylisse. 

You  have a King. The King has three children from oldest to youngest: Emmeryn (Female), Chrom (Male), and Lissa (Female). 

The King dies--the throne goes to Emmeryn.  From this we understand that age takes precedence over gender; the throne goes to the King's eldest child, regardless of sex.

Chrom has two children from oldest to youngest: Lucina (female) and then either a younger son or daughter depending on who he marries. 

Lucina, it is understood, is next in line for the throne of Chrom dies. Not Lissa. From this its understood that the sitting King's heirs take precedence over the King's younger brother's and sisters. (Lissa presumably gets the throne if Chrom dies without children, or if Chrom's children die before Lissa and they have not themselves had children. Then after Lissa--the next exalt would be Owain)

So the order of precedence for succession would be:

1) King's eldest Child, and the heirs of their body
2) King's younger Children, and the heirs of their body
3) King's eldest brother or sister, and the heirs of their body
4) King's younger brother or sister, and the heirs of their body

Consider also the succession dispute in Caelien, in the beginning of FE7.

...Lundgren gets the throne if and only if Lyndis dies, or Lyndis is not recognized as the grandaughter of the sitting Marquess. (i.e. heirs take precedence over brothers and sisters. no preference for males.)

There's also the matter with the succession in Ostia; Hector takes the throne after his elder brother Uther dies (it is never mentioned that Uther had a wife or children; we may therefore assume that the throne passed to his younger sibling, Hector, ONLY because Uther died without heir).

The Laguz got it right, tbh. Just beat the shit out of each other and give the throne to whoever comes out on top.    




 

Chrom may only have one kid, Lucina as well, which presumably would put Lucina in line for Exalt of Ylisse after Chrom rather than Lissa. This also implies then that Ephraim is slightly older than Eirika. IIRC Ephraim and Eirika are twins meaning that Ephraim is either slightly older or that in Renais, favour is given to males for succession. Innes also took over after Hayden died as opposed to Tana taking over, which means the same thing for Frelia. I believe Joshua was the only child of Ismaire, therefore putting him in line for the throne of Jehanna. Presumably Mansel doesn't have children, but he had a sibling, because L'Arachel is his niece, Mansel's sibling is dead by the time of Sacred Stones putting L'Arachel in line for the throne. Ephraim probably became King of Grado after Sacred Stones as Renais ultimately won that war. Another example is Macedon in FE1 and FE3, Michalis, the eldest of the royal children of Macedon came first, then Minerva, then Maria.

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...I just realized that by the laws of succession established for Ylisse, Chrom only inherits the throne because Emmeryn dies without marrying and producing an heir.

Which means that if you could somehow hack the game to make Emerynn immediately playable and get her to S-Support with Robin before "dying" in the Plegian War:

Chrom never becomes Exalt. Lucina never becomes heir to the throne. Their entire line is disinherited. And the throne of Ylisse passes directly to Morgan, with Robin as consort-of-the-late-exalt and exalt-by-proxy until his child The King comes of age.

lol
 

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1 minute ago, Shoblongoo said:

...I just realized that by the laws of succession established for Ylisse, Chrom only inherits the throne because Emmeryn dies without marrying and producing an heir.

Which means that if you could somehow hack the game to make Emerynn immediately playable and get her to S-Support with Robin before "dying" in the Plegian War:

Chrom never becomes Exalt. Lucina never becomes heir to the throne. Their entire line is disinherited. And the throne of Ylisse passes directly to Morgan, with Robin as consort-of-the-late-exalt and a sort of king by proxy until his child comes of age.

lol
 

I guess, Robin kinda becomes a regent for Morgan until Morgan can take the throne and Chrom and Lissa are completely discounted unless Robin and Morgan die without either producing another heir

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