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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?


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8 hours ago, Fast said:

- Roy is amazing. I certainly won't write an essay on why he's so fantastic, many people already explained it on this very topic I believe.

Excellent taste my friend! Roy is my second favourite lord, beaten by Marth by a very slim margin, and is also my second favourite FE character of all time. It's lovely to see more Roy fans after all the grief he gets :)

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26 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The thing about Roy is that his greatest weakness actually suits him. He's a bad unit but why wouldn't he be?

roy is the youngest lord by a good margin, seems rather petite compared to the others and he gives off a brains over brawns vibe.

so of course Roy's a pantsy in a fight.

Roy is 15 in BB. Same age as Leif in T776. Same age as Lyn in her campaign. 

Granted, Leif isn't incredible and Lyn's the worst of the three in her game, but neither of them ever feel like huge liabilities on the battlefield like Roy does. 

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On 7/4/2017 at 10:01 PM, Von Ithipathachai said:

I'm pretty sure it's easy to see Kaga hates Axes.  We're talking about the man who changed Jamke from a Fighter to a Bowman because he started to like him.

He made Dagda, Othin, Brighton, in FE5 alone. 

Theres Barts and others in TRS, and then in Berwick Saga theres the monster known as Dean, all axers. 

I wouldn't say he hated axes for his entire set of designs.

(This is a super late reply yes but I just saw it lmao).

Edited by Jedi
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3 hours ago, Lau said:

Roy is my second favourite lord,

Same here actually. For me, Roy's only beaten by Alm.

And you know, gameplay-wise, i never found Roy to be that bad of a unit. Sure he's not great (at least not until he promotes) but i do find him to be a decent unit. My recommendation for fixing him in any playthrough is giving him the Boots so he can keep up with his promoted army.

Really, the only time i found Roy to suffer as a unit was in the Eturia-Ilia/Sacae arc (though i never go Sacae). Because from early game to the Western Isles, Roy is pretty good (early game because the game loves throwing Cavaliers at you, which Roy can easily handle with a Rapier and Western Isles because it's Axe-Land). And of course, once he promotes, he gets really good.

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2 hours ago, Jedi said:

He made Dagda, Othin, Brighton, in FE5 alone. 

Theres Barts and others in TRS, and then in Berwick Saga theres the monster known as Dean, all axers. 

I wouldn't say he hated axes for his entire set of designs.

(This is a super late reply yes but I just saw it lmao).

After thinking about it for a while, he did seem to have learned from his mistakes in FE4 when designing Axe users afterwards.

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I don't know if the following statements are unpopular or not but we'll see.

I dislike:

Fates' fatigue system

Avatarrs 

Children mechanic

Reclassing (this does not include branch promotions)

Gimmicky skills like seal defense and Rallies I find to be mostly useless

I like:

3rd tier class systems

Branch promotions

Radiant Dawn's master skills

Berserkers, axe cavaliers, axe armor units more berserkers oh and Warriors too.

Laguz units are awesome, I want the lion, wolf and hawk laguz units back. And Kurthnaga is my favorite dragon shifting character.

Lords that are good units like Ike, Hector and Sigurd.

Radiant Dawn's forging system and it's skill system

Ok there you go some positive things and negative, you know what they say. If you're going to criticize someone make sure you also say something nice about them.

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25 minutes ago, SavageVolug said:

I don't know if the following statements are unpopular or not but we'll see.

I dislike:

Fates' fatigue system

Avatarrs 

Children mechanic

Reclassing (this does not include branch promotions)

Gimmicky skills like seal defense and Rallies I find to be mostly useless

Don't you mean Echoes's fatigue system?

Also, whether or not these statements are unpopular depends on where they're unpopular, since, again, what's popular/unpopular on Serenes Forest does not necessarily reflect what's popular elsewhere in the Fire Emblem fanbase.

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13 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Don't you mean Echoes's fatigue system?

Also, whether or not these statements are unpopular depends on where they're unpopular, since, again, what's popular/unpopular on Serenes Forest does not necessarily reflect what's popular elsewhere in the Fire Emblem fanbase.

I was referring to the fact that in Fates; Silver, Brave and a lot of other high rank weapons gave significant stat debuffs, Echoes on the other hand I never had any problems especially as I could give food to whoever was fatigued and reverse the effects. Additionally I always seemed to have plenty of food to go around, whereas there don't seem to be any ways of working around Fates' fatigue system outside of just not using Silver weapons. Which is a bummer because I REALLY like the design of the Silver weapons but the negatives are too extreme. Which is why in this case I would much rather have a weight system and durability in place instead.

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2 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

Children mechanic

What exactly is it about the 2-Gen mechanic you dislike? If it's just the way a specific game did the idea, then you may want to clarify that. If it's just the idea of playing through 2 Generations of characters, then that should be specified.

2 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

Lords that are good units like Ike, Hector and Sigurd.

I'm going to second this with a slight change as I feel every Lord has the potential to be an amazing Unit: I like Lords that are great Units with little if any effort on my part, in part because playing with overpowered Units is awesome and in part because I'm a touch lazy when Supports aren't involved.

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14 hours ago, Armagon said:

And you know, gameplay-wise, i never found Roy to be that bad of a unit. Sure he's not great (at least not until he promotes) but i do find him to be a decent unit. My recommendation for fixing him in any playthrough is giving him the Boots so he can keep up with his promoted army.

Really, the only time i found Roy to suffer as a unit was in the Eturia-Ilia/Sacae arc (though i never go Sacae). Because from early game to the Western Isles, Roy is pretty good (early game because the game loves throwing Cavaliers at you, which Roy can easily handle with a Rapier and Western Isles because it's Axe-Land). And of course, once he promotes, he gets really good.

The problem with this though is that he still ends up having balancing issues even during the final sections of the game.

The main problems that he has are quite a lot namely

  1. His obvious late promotion
  2. Horrible move even after promotion
  3. Meh growths at best
  4. Swordlocked throughout the entire game
  5. Rapier is only useful in chapters 4, 7 and 21(atleast to me)
  6. A personal weapon that has low uses.

Personally, I just think that his growths are not that special because while his growths aren't bad, a portion of it are on luck and res which aren't that important. 

I'm not bashing at the ones who like him as to each their own. I'm just saying that if he was just more balanced, he'd be reliable pretty much like how a lord is suppose to be.

 

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4 minutes ago, Harvey said:

His obvious late promotion

Agreed (though it at least feels like an actual promotion compared to Leif's promotion in Thracia 776, which is basically just one free level up) (this isn't me hating on Leif. He's a good unit but his FE5 promotion isn't).

5 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Horrible move even after promotion

Uh, no. His Move goes from 5 to 6 after promotion, a trait shared by every unit who isn't armored or on a horse. Which is like, 50% of the cast. Also, the Boots exist.

6 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Meh growths at bes

Let's compare Roy's growths with the rest of the GBA Lords

Spoiler

Roy's growthsPtMFrxr.png

Eliwood's growthszL4sX3x.png

Lyn's growthsWZgUUFK.png

Hector's growths0L1h4Up.png

Eirika's growthsEGF9RDq.png

Ephraim's growths10hvKUA.png

As you can see, Roy's growths are pretty similar to the growths of the rest of the GBA Lords. Does Roy have the best growths? No. But if you're gonna say that his growths are meh, then you should also say that to the rest of the GBA Lords.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Swordlocked throughout the entire game

I mean yeah, but swords are the best weapon in Binding Blade so eh.

20 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Rapier is only useful in chapters 4, 7 and 21(atleast to me)

Looks like this is a matter of preference because Rapier was actually really useful to me.

20 minutes ago, Harvey said:

A personal weapon that has low uses.

How is this a point against Roy when almost every personal weapon in the GBA games has low uses?

  • Durandal: 20 uses
  • Armads: 20 uses
  • Sol Katti: 30 uses
  • Mani Katti: 45 uses
  • Wolf Beil: 30 uses
  • Forblaze: 20 uses
  • Binding Blade: 20 uses
  • Sieglinde: 30 uses
  • Siegmund: 30 uses
  • Reginleif: 45 uses

Mani Katti, Wolf Beil, and Reginleif are essentially just glorified Rapiers. And if we want to count non-personal special weapons

  • Maltet: 20 uses
  • Mulagir: 20 uses
  • Apocalypse: 20 uses
  • Aureola: 20 uses

The Binding Blade shares it's 20 use limit with the rest of the Legendary Weapons of Elibe. So remind me again, how exactly is this a point against Roy? The game's practically over by the time you get it so unless you spam it (and have no Hammerens available), it's not breaking.

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46 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Uh, no. His Move goes from 5 to 6 after promotion, a trait shared by every unit who isn't armored or on a horse. Which is like, 50% of the cast. Also, the Boots exist.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Having boots for Roy to fix his move is not how you balance his movement. Also that 6 move still doesn't help especially since FE6 has long maps and pretty much is horse emblem from the start.

46 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Let's compare Roy's growths with the rest of the GBA Lords

 

Are you seriously comparing Roy to the other lords? Because if so, then you will know now that the other lords are better than him due to the fact that they 

  1. Promote early.
  2. Have growths that are better than Roy.

Lyn and Erika are far better than Roy btw even though Lyn has a lower defence growth. The reason I say that his growths are meh is because they don't mean much when he has his promotion issue as well as the other being luck and res since besides mages and healers, pretty much the rest of the crew have low res.

46 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I mean yeah, but swords are the best weapon in Binding Blade so eh.

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Just because they are the best doesn't mean you should stick with them only. Roy can also benefit using lances to protect himself better against bow users and mages.

46 minutes ago, Armagon said:

How is this a point against Roy when almost every personal weapon in the GBA games has low uses?

Let's take a look at each and every weapon shall we?

46 minutes ago, Armagon said:
  • Durandal: 20 uses
  • Armads: 20 uses
  • Sol Katti: 30 uses
  • Forblaze: 20 uses
  • Sieglinde: 30 uses
  • Siegmund: 30 uses
  • Reginleif: 45 uses
  • Apocalypse: 20 uses
  • Aureola: 20 uses

If you're referring to FE7, you do realise that they are only in the final chapter right? And for just one chapter, their uses are balanced. No idiot is gonna abuse the hell out of them because otherwise, you'd just have to replay the chapter again! 

As for the Mani Kati, Wolf Beli and the Rapier, those weapons are mandatory early on if you want to make use out of the lords and its not like you have to use all the three lords either.

Btw, I don't know where you got the idea that 30-45 uses is low so I'm only assuming that you said that to defend the Binding Blade.

46 minutes ago, Armagon said:

The Binding Blade shares it's 20 use limit with the rest of the Legendary Weapons of Elibe. So remind me again, how exactly is this a point against Roy?

Because the binding blade is a personal weapon that only Roy can only use? It just makes the Rapier the more personal weapon for him as it has more uses than the former. 

Its a point against Roy because its uses are not enough to save him and its really only useful against the final boss so you may as well just avoid using it till then which makes it a bit harder to baby him in the last chapters unless you use stat boosts.

Really, my point here is that if he were balanced like how lords are, then he'd be reliable something that lords are suppose to be. How is this so hard to understand? I can understand not agreeing to it but not understanding the issue?

EDIT: With that in mind, I'm not arguing any further here.

 

Edited by Harvey
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Oh for the love of ass, Roy's growths DON'T suck. Its his base stats that are complete garbage. Check the damn growth spreadsheet that is in this very website. Roy's overall growths are either equal or better than the rest of the FE6 characters. He doesn't seem to grow because he has no room for growth, he is abysmal against the enemies from beginning to end, he flat out never gets good.  When will this damn misconception die?

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Having boots for Roy to fix his move is not how you balance his movement. Also that 6 move still doesn't help especially since FE6 has long maps and pretty much is horse emblem from the start.

Are you seriously comparing Roy to the other lords? Because if so, then you will know now that the other lords are better than him due to the fact that they 

  1. Promote early.
  2. Have growths that are better than Roy.

Lyn and Erika are far better than Roy btw even though Lyn has a lower defence growth. The reason I say that his growths are meh is because they don't mean much when he has his promotion issue as well as the other being luck and res since besides mages and healers, pretty much the rest of the crew have low res.

Its a point against Roy because its uses are not enough to save him and its really only useful against the final boss so you may as well just avoid using it till then which makes it a bit harder to baby him in the last chapters unless you use stat boosts.

Really, my point here is that if he were balanced like how lords are, then he'd be reliable something that lords are suppose to be.

> You know you can just rescue Roy right? Its not like he will do anything productive so might as well remove his weapon and carry him to the throne every chapter. FE6 is really generous with its rescuebots, most of them have abysmal stats so you lose nothing by not having them fight. Since you can stash boots in the endgame moving Roy around is not a problem.

> The other lords promote really late as well. In FE7 you lose money for promoting the lords.

> Sorry, but Lyn is worse than Roy. Roy may be forced every map and have abysmal stats, but at least he is always needed to seize the throne, and he fights here and there before "benching" him in CH7. Lyn sucks for all the reasons Roy sucks. Abysmal durability, awful base stats, swordlocked, terrible promotion, and foot locked. Unlike Roy, Lyn is never needed, she wastes a deployment slot, promoting her wastes money, wastes exp, and if she dies (which is very likely) gets you a game over. "Lyn is forced deployed in some maps so you need to train her." No you don't. You can 4-5 turn all of those maps and keep her in corner. You have the liberty to disregard Roy completely with no punishment. While you can completely ignore Lyn as well using her hinders you even more than using Roy. Same with Eliwood, he is just as bad as Lyn and Roy. "He gets a horse on promotion" And you lose money for killer lances/reavers, you have to go through the ordeal of training his pathetic ass for a lot of chapters (in which none he is useful), and once he promotes he doesn't do anything better than any other cavalier available.

> Idoun can be killed by Perceval wielding Durandal. Roy also does 36 damage to Idoun in 0% growths, so you don't need to baby him either.

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2 hours ago, Armagon said:
  • Mani Katti: 45 uses

But the Mani Katti actually has like 90 Uses because you can straight-up break it in Lyn's Story and it comes back during Eliwood's.

EDIT: Just realized you said 'almost' when talking about the weapons, my bad.

Edited by SoulWeaver
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32 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Also that 6 move still doesn't help especially since FE6 has long maps and pretty much is horse emblem from the start.

It's Horse Emblem but you're overexaggerating it. The infantry units can actually keep up in FE6.

33 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Promote early.

Roy promotes at the end of Ch.21, 3 chapters before endgame.

Eliwood promotes at the end of Ch.27, 3 chapters before endgame.

Hector promotes 6 chapters before endgame but two of those chapters are Gaiden chapters, one of them not being an actual battle, it's just a 5 turn map to let you go on a shopping spree. So not counting the Gaiden chapters, he promotes 3 chapters before endgame.

The Renais twins promote at the end of Ch.16, 3 chapters before endgame.

You see a pattern here?

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

Its a point against Roy because its uses are not enough to save him and its really only useful against the final boss so you may as well just avoid using it till then which makes it a bit harder to baby him in the last chapters unless you use stat boosts.

Or, you could give Roy stronger weapons so he can be good without using the Binding Blade. You're really exaggerating Roy's supposed weakness of having a personal weapon with only 20 uses.

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

Btw, I don't know where you got the idea that 30-45 uses is low so I'm only assuming that you said that to defend the Binding Blade.

I wasn't. I was comparing all of the personal weapons.

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

If you're referring to FE7, you do realise that they are only in the final chapter right? And for just one chapter, their uses are balanced. No idiot is gonna abuse the hell out of them because otherwise, you'd just have to replay the chapter again! 

You don't need them to beat the final chapter. Athos can wreck both Nergal AND the Fire Dragon with Luna.

1 hour ago, L9999 said:

In FE7 you lose money for promoting the lords.

Wait, what? This is news to me.

1 hour ago, L9999 said:

And you lose money for killer lances/reavers,

Unless you mean by that, where you'd buy new weapons for the promoted Lords. If that's the case......i don't really see the criticism here. I mean, money exists for a reason. I really don't understand this. You're supposed to buy things unless you're doing a no buying run, in which case.....how do you win?

 

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11 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Wait, what? This is news to me.

Funds Rank- only matters if you're playing Ranked, but the Heaven Seals are worth double the gold value of normal promotion items (only the Fell Contract and Ocean Seal are worth more). I forget if you can sell the Heaven Seals (for 10k if possible), but I don't think so. Could someone check? Anyhow, Lyn and one of Eliwood and Hector don't have to be fielded 90% of the time, and the few times they do, there are safe places to put them, so leaving them unpromoted isn't a liability if you're not using them. I've done that before.

15 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Athos can wreck both Nergal AND the Fire Dragon with Luna.

Yup, though Forblaze and Aureola are near identical in performance barring a Luna crit, just adding that in case you don't have Luna on hand. Plus Eliwood and Lyn have issues FD killing- Eliwood needs levels to avoid being doubled, and Lyn only scratches the beast at best.

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2 hours ago, L9999 said:

Oh for the love of ass, Roy's growths DON'T suck. Its his base stats that are complete garbage. Check the damn growth spreadsheet that is in this very website. Roy's overall growths are either equal or better than the rest of the FE6 characters. He doesn't seem to grow because he has no room for growth, he is abysmal against the enemies from beginning to end, he flat out never gets good.  When will this damn misconception die?

Uhh who said anything about his growths being bad? All that I said was that luck growth and res growth are a bit over the top which he doesn't need it that much.

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

You know you can just rescue Roy right? Its not like he will do anything productive so might as well remove his weapon and carry him to the throne every chapter. FE6 is really generous with its rescuebots, most of them have abysmal stats so you lose nothing by not having them fight. Since you can stash boots in the endgame moving Roy around is not a problem.

Except the problem is that you only get ONE rescue staff pretty much forcing you to use the hammerine on it like the Warp staff.

As for boots, ok but what if you want an easier way to recruit Percival during chapter 13 then? Then I have to force myself to use Miready to go to that secret shop and buy a pair which is kinda tough.

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

The other lords promote really late as well. In FE7 you lose money for promoting the lords.

Uh Erika promotes way earlier than Roy. And sure, while Hector/Eliwood promote late as Roy, atleast you get other two lords who promote earlier than him.

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

Sorry, but Lyn is worse than Roy.

Hell no.  Let's counter your reasons for this...

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

Abysmal durability, awful base stats

Ok this is true so I get where you're coming at.

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

swordlocked, terrible promotion, and foot locked.

 Uh she is not swordlocked when she promotes and how is her promotion terrible? She get access to bows, a weapon which myrmidons wish they can get access to.

Atleast I get the foot locked but then again, half the cast is foot locked....

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

Lyn is never needed, she wastes a deployment slot, promoting her wastes money, wastes exp, and if she dies (which is very likely) gets you a game over.

Then by your logic, she is better than Roy because you don't need to use her except in her mode.

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

No you don't. You can 4-5 turn all of those maps and keep her in corner.

Not in Lyn's tale you can't.

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

 You have the liberty to disregard Roy completely with no punishment. While you can completely ignore Lyn as well using her hinders you even more than using Roy.

The problem with this is that she is balanced for what she does unlike Roy who isn't balanced. Atleast Lyn is average unlike Roy who isn't until endgame. Lyn doesn't need a promotion so for those who don't want to use her, don't have to while Roy is forced in every single damn chapter.

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

Same with Eliwood, he is just as bad as Lyn and Roy.

Eliwood is also just average. He does nothing special but I will admit that he might face RNG screwage more than Roy or Lyn atleast according to sources.

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

And you lose money for killer lances/reavers

Where the hell are you getting here? FE7 is very generous about money more than it is in FE6(unless Rutger arena abuse) If you're talking about the funds rank, then why not just not use him till end game to save money?

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

Idoun can be killed by Perceval wielding Durandal.

Which sadly doesn't give you the best ending.

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

Roy also does 36 damage to Idoun in 0% growths, so you don't need to baby him either.

Which is exactly what I said earlier but someone here tends to disagree on that notion.

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

It's Horse Emblem but you're overexaggerating it. The infantry units can actually keep up in FE6.

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

Yeah and I bet you enjoyed chapter 10, 21, 22 and 23 without using horses eh?

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Roy promotes at the end of Ch.21, 3 chapters before endgame.

Eliwood promotes at the end of Ch.27, 3 chapters before endgame.

Hector promotes 6 chapters before endgame but two of those chapters are Gaiden chapters, one of them not being an actual battle, it's just a 5 turn map to let you go on a shopping spree. So not counting the Gaiden chapters, he promotes 3 chapters before endgame.

The Renais twins promote at the end of Ch.16, 3 chapters before endgame.

You see a pattern here?

No I don't because in FE7, you get three lords and all of them are not even needed to beat the endgame because of your logic of using Athos so there is no incentive or desire to get them promoted because of balance reasons unlike Roy who badly needs the promotion.

As for the Renais twins, its actually 5 chapters, a huge difference and how does it matter since FE8 allows you to grind?

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Or, you could give Roy stronger weapons so he can be good without using the Binding Blade. You're really exaggerating Roy's supposed weakness of having a personal weapon with only 20 uses.

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

Yeah like what? If he uses Steel weapons, he gets AS penalty big time and the Durandal is heavier than the Binding Blade which is even worse as he'll have trouble doubling.

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

You don't need them to beat the final chapter. Athos can wreck both Nergal AND the Fire Dragon with Luna.

2 hours ago, L9999 said:

Which also has more uses than the Binding Blade? What's your point? And if at all you break the Luna, what then?

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

I wasn't. I was comparing all of the personal weapons.

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

And if you compare them all, the Binding Blade has the lowest usage. Again, what is your point?

 

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Oh boy, is it groundhog day already? :D

--

14 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

What exactly is it about the 2-Gen mechanic you dislike? If it's just the way a specific game did the idea, then you may want to clarify that. If it's just the idea of playing through 2 Generations of characters, then that should be specified.

This might be splitting hairs, but only FE4 lets you play through the two generations. Awakening has a time travel plot to justify that the children fight together with their parents, and Fates has the babyrealms to "justify" that the childen fight together with their "parents". Speaking strictly from a story perspective (I haven't played any of these games, so I can't comment gameplay beyond "maybe it's fun to mendel some ideal children"), I'm generally sceptical when it comes to time travel plots and I find Fates' babyrealms hilariously dumb, while I don't really mind FE4's time skip.

23 hours ago, Slumber said:

Roy is 15 in BB. Same age as Leif in T776. Same age as Lyn in her campaign. 

Granted, Leif isn't incredible and Lyn's the worst of the three in her game, but neither of them ever feel like huge liabilities on the battlefield like Roy does. 

Interestingly enough, Roy's base stats are very similar to other lords in the series - I think it was @Glaceon Mage who pointed that out to me some time ago. Eliwood, FE11!Marth and FE9!Ike all have comparable stats at the start of the game; Eliwood even has the exact same stats (sans Con) and Lowen is even slightly more ahead of him than Alance are compared to Roy. Looking on Thracia's character list, Leaf even seems to be worse off - I'm aware that stats cap at 20 in that game, so I won't compare his raw stats to the other lords, but both Halvan and Othin considerably outdo him in terms of raw stats.

The way I see it, Roy isn't an extraordinarily weak lord - on the low end of the power scale for sure, but not really an outlier, either. His weakness is just much more noticable since the enemies in BB's earlygame are considerably more buff than, say, PoR's. Ike doesn't really compare that well to the other characters at the start of PoR either, but he exists in a game where the ch.1 brigands do not two-round everyone except the Jeigan.

Edited by ping
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33 minutes ago, ping said:

Interestingly enough, Roy's base stats are very similar to other lords in the series - I think it was @Glaceon Mage who pointed that out to me some time ago. Eliwood, FE11!Marth and FE9!Ike all have comparable stats at the start of the game; Eliwood even has the exact same stats (sans Con) and Lowen is even slightly more ahead of him than Alance are compared to Roy. Looking on Thracia's character list, Leaf even seems to be worse off - I'm aware that stats cap at 20 in that game, so I won't compare his raw stats to the other lords, but both Halvan and Othin considerably outdo him in terms of raw stats.

The way I see it, Roy isn't an extraordinarily weak lord - on the low end of the power scale for sure, but not really an outlier, either. His weakness is just much more noticable since the enemies in BB's earlygame are considerably more buff than, say, PoR's. Ike doesn't really compare that well to the other characters at the start of PoR either, but he exists in a game where the ch.1 brigands do not two-round everyone except the Jeigan.

Leif doesn't measure up to Halvan or Orsin, but he really doesn't need to(Especially since Orsin is probably the most powerful physical unit in the game). Most of the enemies for a while are axe users, and Leif gets a Light Brand right off the bat, which lets him attack and be safe from a distance, functions as a vulnerary AND makes Leif a pseudo-dodgetank, buffing his luck by 10. Individual enemies in Thracia 776 also aren't particularly difficult to deal with, the main source of difficulty coming more from objectives and map layouts. His bases are poop, but his growths are solid, and use of scrolls(That he'll probably be carrying most of the time) boost his growths by 30% for each one he's holding.

Another problem with Roy vs. Eliwood or Ike or Marth is that Eliwood, Ike and Marth are all swordies who start off fighting slow, weak bandits(Doesn't really matter for Marth until his remakes, but it still helps to some degree). There's time to put their strengths to use to build them up and their good growths to use. Roy doesn't get this. A LOT of early game enemies are lance users, or ranged, or something that Roy otherwise won't have an innate advantage over. He falls behind almost immediately because it's risky to use him and it's hard to secure many kills and get him the EXP he needs. You certainly can build up Roy in an effective manner, but it takes much more effort than many of the other lords in the franchise. And this only gets worse in the late game.

There are a lot of factors that make Roy just... unpleasant to use compared to other lords in the franchise.

Edited by Slumber
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6 hours ago, Harvey said:

Except the problem is that you only get ONE rescue staff pretty much forcing you to use the hammerine on it like the Warp staff.

He meant units that can rescue Roy. Not the Rescue Staff.

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

Yeah and I bet you enjoyed chapter 10, 21, 22 and 23 without using horses eh?

Chapter 10's fucking easy. Well, there's two Chapter 10s. 10A and 10B. Both are easy. Ch.21 can go rot in hell though. Even with Horse Emblem, it's tough. Ch.22 and 23 are easy too. Harvey, pls.

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

No I don't because in FE7, you get three lords and all of them are not even needed to beat the endgame because of your logic of using Athos so there is no incentive or desire to get them promoted because of balance reasons unlike Roy who badly needs the promotion.

Buddy, take it from me. The first time i played Blazing Blade, Hector couldn't promote because he kept missing. The Endgame is not fun when you're forced to bring a Lv.7 unpromoted unit into it. You do want to promote or at least train up your Lords.

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

As for the Renais twins, its actually 5 chapters, a huge difference and how does it matter since FE8 allows you to grind?

Quote from the Wiki

Spoiler

Ruled by Madness is Chapter 16 of Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones.

At the end of the chapter (both routes), Eirika and Ephraim can promote to Master/Great Lords, if the player wants them to.

Sacred Stones has 20 Chapters+Endgame. 20-16=4. However, since the promotion happens at the end of Ch.16, then the Renais Twins really only have three chapters to be promoted (not counting Endgame). Literally simple math. Grinding is irrelevant. 

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

Yeah like what? If he uses Steel weapons, he gets AS penalty big time and the Durandal is heavier than the Binding Blade which is even worse as he'll have trouble doubling.

Why the hell would you give him Durandal? Dieck is the best candidate for that. Anyway, i was talking about Silver Swords and Killers. Al's Blade actually helps out decently too.

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

Which also has more uses than the Binding Blade? What's your point? And if at all you break the Luna, what then?

Forblaze and Aureola exist.

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

And if you compare them all, the Binding Blade has the lowest usage. Again, what is your point?

Binding Blade literally has the same usage as Durandal and Armads, as well as the rest of the Legendary Weapons of Elibe.

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

You certainly can build up Roy in an effective manner, but it takes much more effort than many of the other lords in the franchise. And this only gets worse in the late game.

I have to disagree with this a bit. Maybe it's different on Hard (scratch that, it's totally different on Hard), but on Normal, training up Roy isn't that hard. He's still at his worse in the Ilia arc because Pegasus Land, but for the other parts of the game, he's pretty decent.

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15 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Buddy, take it from me. The first time i played Blazing Blade, Hector couldn't promote because he kept missing. The Endgame is not fun when you're forced to bring a Lv.7 unpromoted unit into it. You do want to promote or at least train up your Lords.

Funny.  I've never had accuracy problems with Hector.  If it was your first time playing, I assume we were playing on the same difficulty.

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Just now, Von Ithipathachai said:

Funny.  I've never had accuracy problems with Hector.  If it was your first time playing, I assume we were playing on the same difficulty.

My first playthrough was on Normal. But like, i think the game just hated me that one time, because i've never had accuracy problems with Hector since. But yeah, my first playthrough was hell. And it was at a time where i thought Hector (and Lyn) had to be on the field at all times. I didn't know that i could've just benched Hector.

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On 14.10.2017 at 10:27 AM, Slumber said:

*words and stuff*

I wasn't aware how good the Light Brand in T776 is - thanks for clarifying that.

Anyway, I don't disagree with your post at all; Roy's earlygame is certainly more rough than other's. However, I see that more as a testament that FE6 is a difficult game and less that Roy is extraordinarily weak. Because you could make similar cases for most of BB's cast - Lowen, Franz and Oscar (even though the latter is lancelocked) have less trouble staying alive and will double sooner and/or more consistently than Alan and Lance. It's way easier to keep Neimi permanently on the team and contributing than Wolt. It's easier to get Nino, Ewan or Amelia to function than Sophia or Wendy. FE6!Marcus is more vulnerable than his younger self, Seth, or Titania, although unlike them, he's actually closer to the rest of the party's power level, too, so I don't consider him supporting my point.

I guess said point is that Roy's position inside the cast of FE6 isn't out of the ordinary for an FE lord, at least from the GBA era. Sure, he'd clearly be in the bottom half or third of a ranking, but the same is true for Eliwood, Lyn (especially No-Lyn-Mode-Lyn) and probably Eirika, too. Ike might be better off, but before he finally packs out Ragnell, he has neither a horse nor (meaningful) 1-2 range. That's why I find it overblown to single out Roy as an incredibly weak lord - don't hate the player, hate the game, I suppose. ;)

Edited by ping
phrasing
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3 minutes ago, ping said:

I wasn't aware how good the Light Brand in T776 is - thanks for clarifying that.

Anyway, I don't disagree with your post at all; Roy's earlygame is certainly more rough than other's. However, I see that more as a testament that FE6 is a difficult game and less that Roy is extraordinarily weak. Because you could make similar cases for most of BB's cast - Lowen, Franz and Oscar (even though the latter is lancelocked) have less trouble staying alive and will double sooner and/or more consistently than Alan and Lance. It's way easier to keep Neimi permanently on the team and contributing than Wolt. It's easier to get Nino, Ewan or Amelia to function than Sophia or Wendy. FE6!Marcus is more vulnerable than his younger self, Seth, or Titania, although unlike them, he's actually closer to the rest of the party's power level, too, so I don't consider him supporting my point.

I guess said point is that Roy's position inside the cast of FE6 isn't out of the ordinary for an FE lord, at least from the GBA era. Sure, he'd clearly be in the bottom half or third of a ranking, but the same is true for Eliwood, Lyn (especially No-Lyn-Mode-Lyn) and probably Eirika, too. Ike might be better off, but before he finally packs out Ragnell, he has neither a horse nor (meaningful) 1-2 range. That's why I find it overblown to single him out as an incredibly weak lord - don't blame the player, blame the game, I suppose. ;)

I've always said, if you swapped Hector/Roy in to each other's games and not change a single thing, Hector wouldn't be seen nearly as favorable. Everyone tries very hard to compare 6/7, and they just play by subtle yet very different rules that make a huge difference. 6 is hard, 7 is not.

I think what I'm trying to say, is, I really agree with this, and wanted to thank you for putting it in to words so well.

But yea, the light brand is awesome. That thing saved my butt a few times - my first playthrough of Thracia was blind, and it was the LB and Mareeta that really carried me to the end.

Also, have we not learned yet that Harvey is set in his ways, doesn't listen, and just flat out hates 6 beyond reason yet? (this wasn't aimed at you, but like, this entire freakin' board)

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