What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Von Ithipathachai]

17 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Manaketes thus far have just been lolicons with dragon stones (adult Tiki aside) with no known nation or culture to speak of.  Laguz can fill the same role, but have also shown more age ranges, transformation variety, and backstory.

Dolhr???

[Fabulously Olivier]

28 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Dolhr???

Sure. If you're Tiki and Nowi. For the rest, there is either no homeland, a homeland far removed or ruined, or a homeland separated by dimension.

Frankly, even in the case of Tiki, who gets something of a pass for belonging to Shadow Dragon (in which quite frankly no one had a personality worthy of note), her nation does not play a comparable role in the story to that of the Laguz.

The Laguz had proper kingdoms which interacted with each other and with the Beorc. They were treated as human characters and that made them interesting on a level that the manaketes have never been and will never be.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Etheus

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

Manaketes thus far have just been lolicons with dragon stones

Bantu tho. And if we want to go into male Manaketes who we don't see transform, we have Xane, Gotoh, and Nils. There's also Duma (who's technically not a Manakete but he's still a dragon).

53 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Sure. If you're Tiki and Nowi.

Tiki and Nowi aren't from Dolhr though. Medeus is though, as are most of the enemy Manaketes. Dolhr is the main antagonist kingdom in Shadow Dragon so saying it doesn't have a comparable role to the Laguz nations in Tellius is false.

 

 

[familyplayer]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

All gays being freaks

Now I'm not sure about Rhajat, but I'm pretty sure Niles is not a freak. His personality is simply an affront to get people to ignore him as he doesn't like too many people due to his trust issues. So I don't think, at the least, Niles should be called such.

[Alastor15243]

14 minutes ago, familyplayer said:

Now I'm not sure about Rhajat, but I'm pretty sure Niles is not a freak. His personality is simply an affront to get people to ignore him as he doesn't like too many people due to his trust issues. So I don't think, at the least, Niles should be called such.

He acts exactly the same when you marry him.

[NoirCore]

3 hours ago, Etheus said:

Culturally and aesthetically speaking, Laguz are more interesting and varied than Manaketes. Manaketes thus far have just been lolicons with dragon stones (adult Tiki aside) with no known nation or culture to speak of. Laguz can fill the same role, but have also shown more age ranges, transformation variety, and backstory.

The only flaw of the Laguz has been in their awkward shifting mechanics. Those have to go. When I say Manaketes should be replaced by Laguz, I mean that the loloicon dragon trope is old and needs to be replaced with something that has actual potential for variety. I don't mean that the dragonstone mechanic needs to go. Just give us something with the variety and numbers of the Laguz with the simpler gameplay mechanics of the Manaketes.

That's not an issue with the species, though. That's an issue of the characters created for the species; attributing the problem to the species itself is not fair. Manaketes also live in multiple worlds, so their histories change regardless; Laguz seemed like a Tellius-only thing before beast characters spun off from them in different names.

[Slumber]

While we're on this subject, an FE set in an era where dragons and humans live together would be neat. Kind of like what we heard of pre-Scouring Elibe. One that can explore the kinds of societies that dragons would build and such.

Dragons and humans are pretty much always kept separate, whether it be because the dragons are off living in their own realm or hiding in the human world(Archanea/Jugdral), literally living in another dimension(Elibe), barely existing(Magvel) or another flavor of animal people(Tellius). 

It'd be neat to see an FE treat dragons the same way Laguz were treated in Tellius. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by Slumber

[UNLEASH IT]

I find Julius to be a much more sympathetic villain than his father or Ishtar. He was essentially born to be used.

[Fabulously Olivier]

56 minutes ago, NoirCore said:

That's not an issue with the species, though. That's an issue of the characters created for the species; attributing the problem to the species itself is not fair. Manaketes also live in multiple worlds, so their histories change regardless; Laguz seemed like a Tellius-only thing before beast characters spun off from them in different names.

Okay, but that still does not change the situation. The manaketes and beast characters either need to be developed and de-tropified or replaced entirely.

It isn't the names "Laguz" and "Manakete" that are important. It's that the Laguz were well-realized and offered a variety of character types and transformations, while the Manakete offer none of these. 

If we're sticking with manaketes, include multiple ones per game. Make them more believable. Vary their genders and ages. Take us to their homeland and have humans and manakete meaningfully interact. Give the same treatment to beastmen. Introduce birdmen. But if we do all of these things, we effectively have Laguz. See my point?

Edited October 26, 2017 by Etheus

[familyplayer]

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

He acts exactly the same when you marry him.

I don't expect him to change his ways when married. I'm saying this off of the Azura and Niles supports. And I don't honestly find his og personality that bad. I know enough high schoolers who make too many dirty jokes all the time.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, familyplayer said:

I don't expect him to change his ways when married. I'm saying this off of the Azura and Niles supports. And I don't honestly find his og personality that bad. I know enough high schoolers who make too many dirty jokes all the time.

What I meant was that you said his behavior is an act to repel people, but he doesn’t act any differently towards his spouse in the privacy of their home.

[Icelerate]

On 10/25/2017 at 7:02 AM, Lau said:

Tellius wasn't all that great. The Laguz were great, but that's where it ends. The Greil Mercenaries pale in comparison to to the Shepherds. Elincia's deal in Crimea was interesting but it wasn't expanded upon as much as it should have been, same with the Dawn Brigade. Plus I find it highly unbelievable that every single senator in Begnion was corrupt. Also...the amount of Tellius bias in the fandom is sickening.

too harsh? nah.

1

I thought you liked Sothe and Micaiah as well. 

[Lau]

21 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I thought you liked Sothe and Micaiah as well. 

I meant that in a general term. I do like Sothe and Micaiah, alongside Rhys and Sanaki, but that's it. It's just easier to refer to the Laguz due to the term including more characters.

[familyplayer]

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

What I meant was that you said his behavior is an act to repel people, but he doesn’t act any differently towards his spouse in the privacy of their home.

I guess he thinks they're like it if he talks dirty to them?

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

What I meant was that you said his behavior is an act to repel people, but he doesn’t act any differently towards his spouse in the privacy of their home.

If your spouse is attracted to your behavior, regardless of whether you had meant it to repel them, why would you stop?

[Alastor15243]

2 minutes ago, Etheus said:

If your spouse is attracted to your behavior, regardless of whether you had meant it to repel them, why would you stop?

Because it would be a living nightmare to ceaselessly live a facade around the one you love in order to gain their approval?

[maybe]

11 minutes ago, Etheus said:

If your spouse is attracted to your behavior, regardless of whether you had meant it to repel them, why would you stop?

 

8 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Because it would be a living nightmare to ceaselessly live a facade around the one you love in order to gain their approval?

regardless, the point was that his overall personality is kinda gross and rude

even if he does just do it to mask something, it's still what you're gonna see of him 99% of the time and it definitely doesn't reflect well on the game that the only gay dude is the guy who always talks about sex and makes dirty jokes all the time

[NoirCore]

7 hours ago, Etheus said:

Okay, but that still does not change the situation. The manaketes and beast characters either need to be developed and de-tropified or replaced entirely.

It isn't the names "Laguz" and "Manakete" that are important. It's that the Laguz were well-realized and offered a variety of character types and transformations, while the Manakete offer none of these. 

If we're sticking with manaketes, include multiple ones per game. Make them more believable. Vary their genders and ages. Take us to their homeland and have humans and manakete meaningfully interact. Give the same treatment to beastmen. Introduce birdmen. But if we do all of these things, we effectively have Laguz. See my point?

Yes, but to say "get rid of the species because of its existing members" is silly as you cite reasoning that aren't even related to the species' abilities. I get Manaketes should have a more detailed history (though depending on the plot, they may not need it to the Laguz's extent), but in that case, why is "replacing them" an option? If Laguz somehow came back in a non-Tellius game (which is most likely) and actually replaced dragons, it's not like it's even close to a guarantee that they'd be improved characters than if Manaketes were there. They'd have to have a new backstory like the Manaketes had within their different worlds.

The reason why Laguz were written with such development in the Tellius games was because of the games' writer, not the species concept.

[Florina's #1 Fan]

9 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Because it would be a living nightmare to ceaselessly live a facade around the one you love in order to gain their approval?

Niles' sexual behavior isn't really a facade. It's his cruelty toward others by assuming their lives are not difficult and that they are privileged and not worth his time, that's why people don't like him. I think people are reading Niles' treatment of others like "he isn't actually dirty, he's trying to scare people off with his nastiness." He's trying to scare people off, but he likes it when they stick around, it means they're willing to endure his perverted wagging tongue. I honestly don't see Niles as an offense toward the LGBT community, he has some of the best supports because he's a very intelligent and philosophical person, in his own dark and twisted way. Sure, he's kind of gross, but I don't see it as an insult toward bisexuals.

[Fala]

I never liked the Laguz. Ever.

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, unique said:

 

regardless, the point was that his overall personality is kinda gross and rude

even if he does just do it to mask something, it's still what you're gonna see of him 99% of the time and it definitely doesn't reflect well on the game that the only gay dude is the guy who always talks about sex and makes dirty jokes all the time

Isn't Niles bisexual, not homosexual?

Regardless, I don't think that Nintendo was attempting to be cruel to gay people. I mean, they even went out of their way to include a decent transgender character with Forrest.

(But I digress. I do not enjoy discussing identity politics. I get the concern, but I sincerely doubt Nintendo meant any insult. And in Rhajat's case, her personality has less to do with her sexuality and more with her being a lazy port of Tharja.)

[Fala]

My concern is that all the Gay options are all trash-tier.

[Fabulously Olivier]

26 minutes ago, NoirCore said:

Yes, but to say "get rid of the species because of its existing members" is silly as you cite reasoning that aren't even related to the species' abilities. I get Manaketes should have a more detailed history (though depending on the plot, they may not need it to the Laguz's extent), but in that case, why is "replacing them" an option? If Laguz somehow came back in a non-Tellius game (which is most likely) and actually replaced dragons, it's not like it's even close to a guarantee that they'd be improved characters than if Manaketes were there. They'd have to have a new backstory like the Manaketes had within their different worlds.

The reason why Laguz were written with such development in the Tellius games was because of the games' writer, not the species concept.

Perhaps I misspoke.

I'm not saying "axe the Manaketes." I'm saying that the trope that Manaketes are this one-off character in every game that is just another little girl with a dragonstone and not nearly enough backstory needs to change. 

I'm saying that we need more variety in our characters. Fire Emblem as a series would only benefit from more in depth lore. The Manaketes need more fleshing out. We should have multiple Manaketes of various appearances and ages in our party, every game. One off beast characters like Kaden and Panne should be more integrated into the lore as well for the same reasons. And yes, I do quite frankly miss having hawk/raven characters as an option; alternative flying units are a good thing. Hell, we could even introduce aquatic shapeshifters while we're at it. I do not care what each of these species are. Just give them to us, name them whatever you want, develop them however you like, and use them to enrich the universe. The Laguz are just such a strong go-to example because they enriched and diversified Tellius in a way that the series hasn't really seen before.

There's a difference between removing something and improving upon it.

 

Also, i would say that it is not silly to extrapolate on the species by the only examples we are given. Effectively, the characters that we are given ARE the species as far as the player is concerned, as these are the representatives that we have to go on. They've all been pretty similar, and they've all lacked in the lore and backstory department. That should change for the better. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by Etheus

[Icelerate]

4 hours ago, Lau said:

I meant that in a general term. I do like Sothe and Micaiah, alongside Rhys and Sanaki, but that's it. It's just easier to refer to the Laguz due to the term including more characters.

But but he's a Greil Mercenary, therefore, contradiction lol. Just kidding. 

[Xanaxian]

Unpopular opinion: I find archers and snipers to be useful.