What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

still would've been better than what we got despite the retooling necessary to make it work. 

Maybe if the philosophy clash is reused in amother new game, not a remake. Since replacing Alm would be... yeah, not a good idea to do...

[Ottservia]

7 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Maybe if the philosophy clash is reused in amother new game, not a remake. Since replacing Alm would be... yeah, not a good idea to do...

not saying you'd have to replace alm just fix him and wouldn't be all that hard to do honestly. All the narrative would need to do to fix Alm's character is too allow him fail due to some innate flaw within the extremes of his ideology and have him realize it before he is punished too severely like celica was. A simple yet very effective fix. Now that wouldn't fix all the problems with the how this story chooses to handle its themes but it would fix most of them.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Ottservia

[Acacia Sgt]

I wouldn't say that every protagonist needs to fail. As I mentioned, Alm can't fall into an extreme because he didn't gew up in a enviroment that allowed it so. As it is, Berkut was likely made to show that instead. Doesn't always have to be the protagonist.

[Ottservia]

25 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I wouldn't say that every protagonist needs to fail. As I mentioned, Alm can't fall into an extreme because he didn't gew up in a enviroment that allowed it so. As it is, Berkut was likely made to show that instead. Doesn't always have to be the protagonist.

yeah not every protagonist needs to fail(I mean just look at every other FE lord) but the very nature of THIS particular story REQUIRES Alm to fail due to some innate flaw in the extremes of his ideals. Or at the very least go little a bit in that direction and snap out of it. That's kind of the entire point of the story. Paragon-esque protagonists CAN work if the story is built around it. This story however requires a protagonist that is a more flawed and suffers consequences based on those flaws cause that's how the story chooses to generate its conflict and explore its themes. This means a paragon hero cannot work by definition because that's not what their purpose is. Well actually.....hmmmmmm....I'll have to think on that a little bit.

Edit: so after thinking for a little bit. A paragon hero can work here just not in the way it happened. Cause here's the thing about paragons, a paragon hero in essence is a character that does things for no other reason than because it's right thing to do. Here's the interesting thing about that though. Sometimes you get paragons where their view of what is "the right thing to do" can become twisted to near extreme levels almost to the point where they become full super villain for a little bit. Now if they had done something like that with Alm it could've worked. Like you know have him sort of start going full genocide on rigel or something to that effect because he feels rigel needs to pay for what they've done to sofia and have the story bring that up as a point of conflict.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Ottservia

[NekoKnight]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I don't think you can just move the brand to Berkut and expect things to remain more or less the same. If Alm didn't had the brand, he wouldn't have been sent away with Mycen. Alm and Berkut would've simply traded roles. Berkut would more or less end like Alm is, and vice versa.

As far as I'm aware, the brands were created for SoV and weren't in Gaiden at all, so it was their goof to create a story element that didn't even work that well. The only thing that would need to be tweaked is the prophesy and Rudolf/Mycen's response to it.

"When the twilight of the gods falls upon Valentia, the royal heirs marked by the brand of Duma and Mila will lead humanity down the path of destruction without the guidance of a commoner born." Or something. It's up to the writers to determine how Alm falls into the protagonist seat but hopefully it doesn't mislead people into thinking he's something that he's not. 

[Acacia Sgt]

6 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

As far as I'm aware, the brands were created for SoV and weren't in Gaiden at all, so it was their goof to create a story element that didn't even work that well. The only thing that would need to be tweaked is the prophesy and Rudolf/Mycen's response to it.

"When the twilight of the gods falls upon Valentia, the royal heirs marked by the brand of Duma and Mila will lead humanity down the path of destruction without the guidance of a commoner born." Or something. It's up to the writers to determine how Alm falls into the protagonist seat but hopefully it doesn't mislead people into thinking he's something that he's not. 

Alm's, at least, existed back in Gaiden. That whole thing wasn't changed. In both versions, Rudolf sees Alm was born with a mark, so he sends him away and goes to imprison Mila and attack Zofia. Checking Gaiden's script, it doesn't look like Celica had a mark, though.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Ottservia]

16 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

As far as I'm aware, the brands were created for SoV and weren't in Gaiden at all, so it was their goof to create a story element that didn't even work that well. The only thing that would need to be tweaked is the prophesy and Rudolf/Mycen's response to it.

"When the twilight of the gods falls upon Valentia, the royal heirs marked by the brand of Duma and Mila will lead humanity down the path of destruction without the guidance of a commoner born." Or something. It's up to the writers to determine how Alm falls into the protagonist seat but hopefully it doesn't mislead people into thinking he's something that he's not. 

honestly though the brand either way isn't all that unnecessary. All they would need is the prophecy and then you could have berkut misinterpret that prophecy into thinking HE is the chosen one who is to save all of valentia which makes his defeat at the hands of Alm all the more gut punching.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Ottservia

[Interdimensional Observer]

54 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Had Berkut had the mark Duma (and I'd say go a step further and make Alm not the heir of Rigel, which would fix a lot of the thematic problems but require retooling of the plot), we'd at least be clear that Alm is something separate from the philosophies carried by Berkut and Celica. It could even tie into Berkut's rage that despite being a 'chosen one' he's getting usurped by this nobody without a brand.

And that is further than the development team was willing to go with this. 

One thing which would have to be resolved by moving the Brand to Berkut would be whether Alm was still foretold or not. Does Alm remain a child of the prophecies? Or is Alm an anomaly? 

-I see you already came up with a preference for leaving him in prophecy, but I'm still going to continue, since I wrote all this.

Let us me cast it like this:

 

Emperor Rudolf of Rigel is glad to hear his wife has given birth to a healthy son one day. But then is soon told that nowhere upon him is the Brand of Duma, which Rudolf himself bears. All true Rigelian royals are supposed to bear the Brand of Duma from the moment they leave the womb, particularly the Emperor's children. That Alm is born without it sends shivers through Rudolf, the Chancellor, and the Emperor's few other absolute highest confidants.

Fearful of what this portends, Rudolf believes he cannot raise his son as his son without this revelation coming to light and threatening his rule and his son's life. Nor can he just strangle the newborn and pretend the pregnancy ended in miscarriage. The newborn is his one and only child after all. So, Rudolf decides to publicly declare the child miscarried, but has Mycen take it away to a life of innocence in Zofia, where they will have a better life than if they were just handed to a Rigelian peasant family.

Mycen takes Alm and intends to hand him off to a barren couple or something in Zofia, but along the way, the Kingdom of Zofia crumbles and he has to grab Celica, who like her father before her and Conrad, bears the Brand of Mila. Now having two royal kids in tow, Mycen forgets about leaving Alm with a new family and instead raises him as his grandson, alerting the Emperor to this, and who agrees to it.

The only thing that needs to be further explained is why Rudolf allows Alm to fight him and why he himself does not go and kill Duma. Although since Rudolf has the Brand of Duma here, we can have it so he can't actually kill Duma no matter what, Duma would stop him.

Duma can be killed with Falchion, but only in the hands of one with the Brand of Mila, or no Brand at all- but the latter scenario is preposterous! What mere mortal even with Falchion would have the power to kill Duma?! None. A demigod with a Brand is de facto needed, the Brand of Mila! Hence, Celica gains a place here as one who Rudolf initially hopes will kill Duma, only to later with his own son's unexpected rise speculate that the Brands are unneeded, and that Alm on his own could do it. But being uncertain of this, he needs to test his son to his own end to make sure that is possible. And, he needs to throw another scion of Duma, the Brand of Duma-possessing Berkut, at Alm as well. Everything to quell his doubts and end the decline he now realizes that has befallen Valentia through the decline of the gods.

 

Alm as an anomaly- a Rigelian royal raised in Zofia, and without the Brand of Duma. Alm is therefore not bound to either dragon-god. Berkut is bound to the faults of Duma, Celica to the faults of Mila. Thus, he can perfectly embody the theistic liberator of Valentia, his power is purely human.

However! Even though Alm can, doesn't mean he will. It is his own ungodly merit and luck that are responsible for that. If he willed nothing, nothing of his heroism would have happened.

 

Admittedly, my preference for Alm as anomaly comes from The Legend of Zelda. The Hero of Time was prophesied. But for Wind Waker, Nintendo decided to ditch prophecy with the Hero of the Winds. OoT Link got the Triforce of Courage naturally when it split, he got the Master Sword naturally and had because prophecy to wait until he was of a certain age to use it. WW Link has to work for the ToC, and is bound by no prophecy to anything else, and this suits Wind Waker, since by the end, stuffy old things that drag the present down are swept away. Prophecy is one of them. And SoV is not unlike WW in this regard for wiping away the old.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[NekoKnight]

24 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Alm's, at least, existed back in Gaiden. That whole thing wasn't changed. In both versions, Rudolf sees Alm was born with a mark, so he sends him away and goes to imprison Mila and attack Zofia. Checking Gaiden's script, it doesn't look like Celica had a mark, though.

Fair enough, but my point still stands that it could reworked that Alm is chosen for a different reason which doesn't confuse the matter of what he's supposed to represent. Because the story definitely frames him as being Celica's counterpart instead of her superior.

In regards to Alm being conditioned to not have the same flaws Berkut does, they could still have Alm dip into these flaws but not go over the edge like Berkut and Celica do. Say Alm wants vengeance against Rigel and nearly does something cruel before his friends remind him of the compassion Celica stood for. This is one scenario, and there are many other ways you could write it. I think Berkut can be a better foil if Alm nearly falls into the same pitfalls but gets saved by the support of friends.

 

14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

honestly though the brand either way isn't all that unnecessary. All they would need is the prophecy and then you could have berkut misinterpret that prophecy into thinking HE is the chosen one who is to save all of valentia which makes his defeat at the hands of Alm all the more gut punching.

That works too. I mean, that would be all the context you need to explain why Berkut led the invasion of Zofia to begin with.

@Interdimensional Observer There are certainly some interesting ideas there, although personally I think the brands being a legacy thing makes it too close to Naga and Grima's brand. Maybe some would consider that meaningful resonance it's like poetry, it rhymes since Awakening is the same world but I kind of like that SoV did its own thing by making the marks of Duma/Mila a one time thing.

Edited February 11, 2019 by NekoKnight

[JimmyBeans]

9 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Lol it seems like you're scared. XD

The game showed the consequence of the action and made it explicitly clear it had consequences. Micaiah being forced to rally the troops is simply her correcting the mistake she made. Micaiah herself claimed it was a bad move on her part and even the Black Knight questioned the decision. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Black Knight:
“You would simply let him go?”

Micaiah:
“He is not ours to judge. He belongs to the apostle now. I suppose he must bury his fallen friend and pray before facing her.”

  Reveal hidden contents

Micaiah:
“Yes. There was another soldier who sacrificed his life protecting Jarod. I presume Jarod’s burying him now. Oh! Oh, no…”

Sothe:
“What is it?!”

Micaiah:
“I see a dark cloud… It’s dimming the light of hope… By letting Jarod go, I may have allowed something terrible to happen…”

 

 

I Don't think Eliwood's weaknesses are given the same weight as Micaiah's but yes he's a great character. 

Alm only pays for his actions once and it was actually the correct thing to do as it is all part of Rudolf's plan so I don't see him comparable to Micaiah or Eliwood either. Just compare Alm with Celica in the same game and it's pretty clear he's pretty perfect for the most part. 

You can roll with that if you want, I'm just sick of every time I bring up something even slightly negative about I get hounded by her fan base constantly, I do not mean to be judgemental and I apologize for my comment I just am sick of it honestly.

Yes the BK "questioned" the decision but Michiah is responsible for the deaths of who knows how many civilians because she let him go, you could blame the BK for this as well since just fell in line with what Michiah was saying. The point is no one challenges her or displays anger, or even thinks any ill of her for that decision in the slightest and that is bothersome. And if you think that would of been irrelevant for the story than at least we can agree that it could of been handled differently, I think it would of been better for Jarod to have other means of escape to avoid the entire issue.

As for Eliwood I think he has more weight and since you showed no evidence of Michiah's weight of weakness I'm just going to say that's your opinion and mine is different, if you just say it like that than this isn't even an argument. My only response to that is "cool, I disagree".

As for Alm as I have said multiple times he is nothing special, but like I have always said he isn't perfect as he didn't think, talk, ask or do anything but fight what was in front of him and because of that he killed is Father and his cousin. That is not in my definition of perfection but if you think he is than props to you I guess again I disagree.

The only thing you even put up and argument for was Michiah and I gave you my 2 cents and there is nothing else to talk about because you just gave me a line about your opinion on the other subjects.

 

[Icelerate]

33 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

You can roll with that if you want, I'm just sick of every time I bring up something even slightly negative about I get hounded by her fan base constantly, I do not mean to be judgemental and I apologize for my comment I just am sick of it honestly.

Yes the BK "questioned" the decision but Michiah is responsible for the deaths of who knows how many civilians because she let him go, you could blame the BK for this as well since just fell in line with what Michiah was saying. The point is no one challenges her or displays anger, or even thinks any ill of her for that decision in the slightest and that is bothersome. And if you think that would of been irrelevant for the story than at least we can agree that it could of been handled differently, I think it would of been better for Jarod to have other means of escape to avoid the entire issue.

As for Eliwood I think he has more weight and since you showed no evidence of Michiah's weight of weakness I'm just going to say that's your opinion and mine is different, if you just say it like that than this isn't even an argument. My only response to that is "cool, I disagree".

As for Alm as I have said multiple times he is nothing special, but like I have always said he isn't perfect as he didn't think, talk, ask or do anything but fight what was in front of him and because of that he killed is Father and his cousin. That is not in my definition of perfection but if you think he is than props to you I guess again I disagree.

The only thing you even put up and argument for was Michiah and I gave you my 2 cents and there is nothing else to talk about because you just gave me a line about your opinion on the other subjects.

 

Don't see where you are always hounded by her fanbase. 

No one except Sothe and Black Knight know about the Jarod incident. Micaiah herself admitted it was a bad decision so why would there be a need to lecture her? It is good writing when the flaws have actual consequences and not just someone getting mad but nothing coming from it. Much better than Merlinus criticizing Roy but Roy's action being 100% correct or Ike getting a mere slap in the wrist in PoR for acting out of line. 

You're the one who brought up Eliwood as an example so the burden of proof is on you, not me. Micaiah's weaknesses have the consequence of her fainting or needing Sothe or BK to save her from her enemies. Don't remember Eliwood fainting or needing Hector or Lyn as bodyguards to the same extent as Micaiah. All I remember is Hector and Lyn teasing Eliwood for his weakness, nothing more. 

I remember Alm trying to negotiate with Rigel after retaking Zofia but Rigel refused to listen so Alm isn't just fight fight fight. 

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Icelerate

[MagicCanonBalls]

My headcanon ship for FE7 lords are Lyn X Rath, Hector X Florina, and Eliwood X Fiora, Largely due to how much I dislikes Ninian's epilogue with Eliwood. 

I don't see the point of arguing over Priam's existence and whether he is canon or not. Multiverse basically means that he could come from the localized Tellius world that implied Elincia X Ike unlike the Japanese version. And that is the one of the many reason why I like Awakening. 

FE4 second gen characters as a whole sucks compared to other second gen in Fates and Awakening, which made the later half of the game even more frustrating to play.

[JimmyBeans]

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

Don't see where you are always hounded by her fanbase. 

No one except Sothe and Black Knight know about the Jarod incident. Micaiah herself admitted it was a bad decision so why would there be a need to lecture her? It is good writing when the flaws have actual consequences and not just someone getting mad but nothing coming from it. Much better than Merlinus criticizing Roy but Roy's action being 100% correct or Ike getting a mere slap in the wrist in PoR for acting out of line. 

You're the one who brought up Eliwood as an example so the burden of proof is on you, not me. Micaiah's weaknesses have the consequence of her fainting or needing Sothe or BK to save her from her enemies. Don't remember Eliwood fainting or needing Hector or Lyn as bodyguards to the same extent as Micaiah. All I remember is Hector and Lyn teasing Eliwood for his weakness, nothing more. 

I remember Alm trying to negotiate with Rigel after retaking Zofia but Rigel refused to listen so Alm isn't just fight fight fight. 

 

"Oh I screwed up for showing mercy to someone who obviously was going to do something evil" she just flat out let him go! They could of at least captured Jarod but kept him alive because that would of still been in character for her to keep him alive after Alder's sacrifice, but instead she just let's him go like an idiot and acts surprised when he bombards the town. Also considering the fact they are waiting for the inspection team wouldn't the smartest thing be to just capture Jarod and wait so that kind of thing doesn't happen? Jarod delivered himself to her pretty much because of Black Knights protection and she doens't properly pay for making a stupid decision in my book.

I would excuse this idiocy if she payed the proper consequences for this more than just "oh no my poor countrymen" to something like an angry soldier whos family was in the capital. And you are right that not a lot of people knew about that incident so the best part would of been to avoid the situation all together and give Jarod another means of escape, that way Daein still has a means to march on Jarod's army instead of just waiting for the inspection team.

Yes I initially brought up Eliwood but your response to was that you don't think Eliwood has as much of a burden than Eliwood does. And that's it...... You can think what you want but you gave me a one line opinion what did you expect me to respond with??? Again I say that I disagree, at least you actually brought up a couple points this time...

To your points I say that it's not just the teasing in his conversations with Marcus and Hector his weakness is one of his main character traits and Eliwood wants to fight regardless. His weakness is why he didn't get to his fathers side in time as well, something that tears him up for a while. You seem to derail what my original points were about every time as I never argued who had it worse between these characters, Eliwood is a strong character in my eyes because of what he accomplishes despite his weaknesses, and he comes of as a more human character because of this.

Michiah I would argue is a human character to an extent, but the writers obviously wanted Ike to be the one in the right so she got shafted until the end, I get the feeling that her mistakes were less about character growth and more about making Ike look better and so I think the writers did a good job for the most part, but didn't exactly do her justice. Without weakness there is no strength, michiah has weakness but the game doesn't allow her to flourish with that enough.

And for Alm iirc it was Clive who sent the message to Rigel and told Alm that they had no response to which Alm made the decision almost immediately to invade Rigel much to Tobin and Grey's dismay. Also when they initially took Zofia castle Clive was considering garrisoning the castle to which Alm in form of a rallying speech declared war on the Rigel and decided to march out to meet them head on. Despite how kind he is Alm is by far one of the most aggressive lords in the series, hes not on top but hes up there.

In short your argument isn't very convincing....

 

[Icelerate]

25 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

"Oh I screwed up for showing mercy to someone who obviously was going to do something evil" she just flat out let him go! They could of at least captured Jarod but kept him alive because that would of still been in character for her to keep him alive after Alder's sacrifice, but instead she just let's him go like an idiot and acts surprised when he bombards the town. Also considering the fact they are waiting for the inspection team wouldn't the smartest thing be to just capture Jarod and wait so that kind of thing doesn't happen? Jarod delivered himself to her pretty much because of Black Knights protection and she doens't properly pay for making a stupid decision in my book.

I would excuse this idiocy if she payed the proper consequences for this more than just "oh no my poor countrymen" to something like an angry soldier whos family was in the capital. And you are right that not a lot of people knew about that incident so the best part would of been to avoid the situation all together and give Jarod another means of escape, that way Daein still has a means to march on Jarod's army instead of just waiting for the inspection team.

Yes I initially brought up Eliwood but your response to was that you don't think Eliwood has as much of a burden than Eliwood does. And that's it...... You can think what you want but you gave me a one line opinion what did you expect me to respond with??? Again I say that I disagree, at least you actually brought up a couple points this time...

To your points I say that it's not just the teasing in his conversations with Marcus and Hector his weakness is one of his main character traits and Eliwood wants to fight regardless. His weakness is why he didn't get to his fathers side in time as well, something that tears him up for a while. You seem to derail what my original points were about every time as I never argued who had it worse between these characters, Eliwood is a strong character in my eyes because of what he accomplishes despite his weaknesses, and he comes of as a more human character because of this.

Michiah I would argue is a human character to an extent, but the writers obviously wanted Ike to be the one in the right so she got shafted until the end, I get the feeling that her mistakes were less about character growth and more about making Ike look better and so I think the writers did a good job for the most part, but didn't exactly do her justice. Without weakness there is no strength, michiah has weakness but the game doesn't allow her to flourish with that enough.

And for Alm iirc it was Clive who sent the message to Rigel and told Alm that they had no response to which Alm made the decision almost immediately to invade Rigel much to Tobin and Grey's dismay. Also when they initially took Zofia castle Clive was considering garrisoning the castle to which Alm in form of a rallying speech declared war on the Rigel and decided to march out to meet them head on. Despite how kind he is Alm is by far one of the most aggressive lords in the series, hes not on top but hes up there.

In short your argument isn't very convincing....

 

Micaiah expected he'd be locked up after burying Alder, sent to trial and put to the death. Micaiah wanted him to bury Alder and her capturing Jarod wouldn't have allowed her to give him the opportunity to bury him. Even people who are full of hate generally agree that even the worst people deserve a quick and proper burial. When she realizes something bad was about to happen, she was smart enough to realize she was the cause of it. Micaiah is forced to go on one final battle because of this mistake so yes she paid for the mistake. 

No the point of the mistake was to develop Micaiah's character so that in part 3, she is a lot more ruthless or else it'll feel out of character when she shows no mercy in part 3. Jarod randomly escaping would be bad writing as it makes the Black Knight incompetent if someone as lowly as Jarod escapes his grasp. 

You're the one who claims my argument isn't convincing which is funny because you have no argument to begin with. Based on what her mistakes have little to do with character growth? 

So did Alm's campaign against Rigel go smoothly? If it was so smooth, how was this an arguably flawed decision? 

In short, your argument isn't convincing at all. Your initial statement was contradictory to begin with. You claimed Micaiah didn't get punished for letting Jarod go, despite her mistake costing a lot of lives and destruction. Saying she didn't get punished enough is an opinion, a strange one considering how much she is actually punished compared to most FE lords, so don't try to use a mere opinion in an argument with me, Ottservia or anyone else. Got that? 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Icelerate

[Interdimensional Observer]

13 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

There are certainly some interesting ideas there, although personally I think the brands being a legacy thing makes it too close to Naga and Grima's brand. Maybe some would consider that meaningful resonance it's like poetry, it rhymes since Awakening is

the same world but I kind of like that SoV did its own thing by making the marks of Duma/Mila a one time thing.

And don't forget Jugdral! The number one land of Brands.

I might have a slight liking for the idea of Brands, since I spent quite a few paragraphs fanficting about Forseti possession.

 

9 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

To your points I say that it's not just the teasing in his conversations with Marcus and Hector his weakness is one of his main character traits and Eliwood wants to fight regardless. His weakness is why he didn't get to his fathers side in time as well, something that tears him up for a while. You seem to derail what my original points were about every time as I never argued who had it worse between these characters, Eliwood is a strong character in my eyes because of what he accomplishes despite his weaknesses, and he comes of as a more human character because of this.

Given even Hector had no chance of rescuing Elbert, I wouldn't call the failure a flaw. Weakness, but not a flaw. It was impossible to rescue Elbert given how strong Nergal and his goons are.

A flaw is something a person could feasibly correct without the need for assistance. Eliwood could not have been strong enough to save Elbert unless he already had Athos at his side and Durandal and Aureola in hand.

If it were realistically possible for Eliwood to sneakily rescue Elbert successfully with no one by those he had at the Dragon's Gate, but for some reason Eliwood botched this stealth operation- perhaps brashness, perhaps he refused to allow a feint which would put someone else's life at risk, that would be a flaw.

Or, to use an ingame example of a flaw- Eliwood's Helene outburst. Could he have not done that by himself? Yes. He is normally courteous and mild and diplomatic, yet here, he forsook his usual restrain and had an outburst at Helene, almost dooming his chances of getting knowledge of the Shrine of Seals's location.

[JimmyBeans]

11 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Micaiah expected he'd be locked up after burying Alder, sent to trial and put to the death. Micaiah wanted him to bury Alder and her capturing Jarod wouldn't have allowed her to give him the opportunity to bury him. Even people who are full of hate generally agree that even the worst people deserve a quick and proper burial. When she realizes something bad was about to happen, she was smart enough to realize she was the cause of it. Micaiah is forced to go on one final battle because of this mistake so yes she paid for the mistake. 

No the point of the mistake was to develop Micaiah's character so that in part 3, she is a lot more ruthless or else it'll feel out of character when she shows no mercy in part 3. Jarod randomly escaping would be bad writing as it makes the Black Knight incompetent if someone as lowly as Jarod escapes his grasp. 

You're the one who claims my argument isn't convincing which is funny because you have no argument to begin with. Based on what her mistakes have little to do with character growth? 

So did Alm's campaign against Rigel go smoothly? If it was so smooth, how was this an arguably flawed decision? 

In short, your argument isn't convincing at all. Your initial statement was contradictory to begin with. You claimed Micaiah didn't get punished for letting Jarod go, despite her mistake costing a lot of lives and destruction. Saying she didn't get punished enough is an opinion, a strange one considering how much she is actually punished compared to most FE lords, so don't try to use a mere opinion in an argument with me, Ottservia or anyone else. Got that? 

So do you think she is smart for thinking that Jarod would just sit around and wait for the inspection team to arrive? Jarod is way to prideful to sit around and admit defeat, and she has interacted with him enough to know that, in fact even if she hadn't met him at all it would be stupid to assume he would just sit around and not try anything considering the state that he and his army was in. Sure you can say she was "smart enough" to realize she was the cause of it but she was stupid to let him go in the first place thinking that he wouldn't do anything.

Black Knight also made a questionable decision by not killing him saying something along the lines of "My sword is not made to kill those who will not raise there weapon" or something along those lines considering Jarod was defenseless to begin with before Alder jumped in. So either he is "incompetent" or just ignorant. Pick your poison......

No argument to begin with??? I was having a discussion with Otts about a completely different subject and then you jumped in and dumped your opinion. Of course I didn't have an argument to begin with because you initiated the argument which was a completely different subject than the one I was having with Otts as well as constantly twisting around what I was saying.

What do you mean by smooth? Do you mean because Alm didn't get dragged through the dirt on the way to the castle? Because if you do than I agree they crushed Rigel really hard and there was no fluff in that arc showing how difficult it was to which I say again Alm is nothing special. The flaw comes from when he kills his family to which I argue that he is not Perfect and right in every way, he may be dang close but that was not my argument at all. I was defending that he wasn't perfect and you have twisted my argument around yet again, this is why I said your argument is not very convincing.

You can keep saying my statement was contradictory all you want but I already explained to you what I meant by that, and in case you don't want to scroll up I said that no one blamed her or felt any ill toward her for making what I see as a stupid decision and everyone loves her anyways... Luckily it's not Corrin level but it is a bad moment for her if you ask me.

I explained that I feel the story didn't do her justice and that she got shafted for the sake of Ike, and I feel like that the game didn't give proper attention to her faults and especially with her heavy involvement with being stuck under the wims of the blood pact it's shame most of that part got devoted to Ike. Like I said I don't hate Michiah and so I don't understand why you are pressing this point so hard, I just think that one scene could of been handled better. Sooner or later your going to have to understand that she is not a perfectly written character. I even said she is one of the better lords IMO are you not satisfied by that?

Also "mere opinions" is what me and Otts discussion was boiled down to and we agreed to disagree. I wouldn't say it was a heated discussion but we poured out pretty much all of out thoughts on the subject and ended it peacefully especially because I consider Otts to be a very reasonable person. Also behind all the facts mere opinions is all anyone has on any subject especially regarding what moments we think are bad of good in stories so I don't understand your thought process in that regard. Got that? (or insert any snarky remark here)

[Icelerate]

2 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

So do you think she is smart for thinking that Jarod would just sit around and wait for the inspection team to arrive? Jarod is way to prideful to sit around and admit defeat, and she has interacted with him enough to know that, in fact even if she hadn't met him at all it would be stupid to assume he would just sit around and not try anything considering the state that he and his army was in. Sure you can say she was "smart enough" to realize she was the cause of it but she was stupid to let him go in the first place thinking that he wouldn't do anything.

 

First off, no where in the game is it stated Micaiah expected Jarod to sit around and wait for the inspection team. Second of all, I didn't claim she was smart for letting Jarod go. Not a fan of people who twist my statements. I actually despise it. 

Quote

Black Knight also made a questionable decision by not killing him saying something along the lines of "My sword is not made to kill those who will not raise there weapon" or something along those lines considering Jarod was defenseless to begin with before Alder jumped in. So either he is "incompetent" or just ignorant. Pick your poison......

Jarod was still in a fight with a weapon albeit about to lose before Alder popped in. The fight stopped after Alder's death and Jarod no longer had a weapon equipped.

Quote

No argument to begin with??? I was having a discussion with Otts about a completely different subject and then you jumped in and dumped your opinion. Of course I didn't have an argument to begin with because you initiated the argument which was a completely different subject than the one I was having with Otts as well as constantly twisting around what I was saying.

I didn't start an argument. You made a wrong claim and I corrected you. 

Incorrect claim JimmyBeans: 

2. Michiah faced no real consequence for letting Jarod live, it is completely her fault he started bombarding the city with catapults and what not.

Fact Check Icelerate: 

No offense but you yourself falsified your initial statement. Him bombarding the city and killing scores of civilians is a pretty dire consequence. 

Quote

What do you mean by smooth? Do you mean because Alm didn't get dragged through the dirt on the way to the castle? Because if you do than I agree they crushed Rigel really hard and there was no fluff in that arc showing how difficult it was to which I say again Alm is nothing special. The flaw comes from when he kills his family to which I argue that he is not Perfect and right in every way, he may be dang close but that was not my argument at all. I was defending that he wasn't perfect and you have twisted my argument around yet again, this is why I said your argument is not very convincing.

Okay you agree he's close to perfect. I don't think he's literally perfect either. 

Quote

You can keep saying my statement was contradictory all you want but I already explained to you what I meant by that, and in case you don't want to scroll up I said that no one blamed her or felt any ill toward her for making what I see as a stupid decision and everyone loves her anyways... Luckily it's not Corrin level but it is a bad moment for her if you ask me.

No ill will shown =/= not being punished. 

Quote

I explained that I feel the story didn't do her justice and that she got shafted for the sake of Ike, and I feel like that the game didn't give proper attention to her faults and especially with her heavy involvement with being stuck under the wims of the blood pact it's shame most of that part got devoted to Ike. Like I said I don't hate Michiah and so I don't understand why you are pressing this point so hard, I just think that one scene could of been handled better. Sooner or later your going to have to understand that she is not a perfectly written character. I even said she is one of the better lords IMO are you not satisfied by that?

 Once again stop making assertions about myself. I didn't say or imply she's a perfectly written character. You feeling like the game didn't show the consequences of Micaiah's faults is odd when you use Eliwood and Alm of all people to show how faults should be shown. Neither character whose shown to be very flawed so the comparison is moot. If you used someone like Hector, your argument would have more credence, as he's obviously more flawed.   

Izuka, one of the most vile putrid human beings in FE, was allowed to be right when he claimed Micaiah's heroism was making Pelleas' standing weaker. Both her and Pelleas were forced to acknowledge this fact. There was also the swamp trap where Tauroneo ends up agreeing with Izuka that going to a trap is too risky. If even someone as blatantly evil as Izuka is allowed to be right compared to Micaiah, you can see why I have a hard time agreeing with you that Micaiah is put on a higher pedestal than she deserves or that the game doesn't question Micaiah's decisions, values, etc. I don't remember off the top of my head when someone as evil as Izuka is allowed to have a point over any of the other FE lords. 

Spoiler

“Wait! Where are you going?! You can’t take the laguz and rush off on some harebrained mission again!”

Micaiah:
“Can’t I?”

Izuka:
“Of course not, you idiot girl. You’ve already been far too impulsive, acting without the prince’s consent. And do you think I do not see what has happened? Your name has been raised to lavish heights among the Daein people–your name, and yours alone! Why, even our own soldiers heap their praise on you like sugar on berries, sparing not a thought for their prince!”

Micaiah:
“Oh…”

(Flashback)

Jarod:
“Hah! The prince! He’s a sham, a travesty, a clod of mud no amount of polishing could shine.”

Jarod:
“The real jewel–whose radiance attracts the people like moths to flame–is you, Priestess.”

Jarod:
“And so I shall steal you and extinguish Daein’s light of hope!!”

(End of flashback)

Izuka:
“And then, even once their rightful king is crowned, the people will still await the approval of their precious Priestess of Dawn. Why, if we are not careful, some calculating wretches might decide they would rather see a priestess on the throne instead of a king! And once again, this country will be torn apart, all because of your glory-hounding disregard for our prince’s command!”

Pelleas:
“Please, Izuka…”

Izuka:
“Come to think of it…perhaps our Priestess here has been planning this all along! Pretending to help the prince…when in truth she seeks to wear the crown herself!”

Sothe:
“Stop your tongue, worm, or my knife will stop it for you. The only one who seems too hungry for power here is you–“

???:
“That’s enough!!”

Pelleas:
“Izuka, Micaiah does not deserve any such attack on her character. She is pure and noble, and I… I am inadequate.”

Izuka:
“Have her actions poisoned your mind too, my prince?!”

Pelleas:
“Since we met, Micaiah has led every battle, even joining the soldiers on the battlefield. Not so with me. I…cannot defend my people. How could our people not rally around her? They see her fighting, throwing her lot in with their own. They respect her. That said, things cannot remain as they are. Izuka is right to worry about my standing. I need to earn my people’s respect. Therefore… Therefore, I must take action.”

Micaiah:
“Um…”

Spoiler

Tauroneo (***)

Tauroneo: Sorry about this, Lady Micaiah. Just this once, I agree with Lord Izuka’s concerns.
Micaiah: I completely understand. This is my fight, and mine alone. Please keep the prince safe, General Tauroneo.

 

I do agree that Izuka should have criticized Micaiah for letting Jarod go and using it against her, criticizing her naive worldview which would  force Micaiah to acknowledge Izuka is right. But the Black Knight getting angry would be OoC considering how he refuses to get angry when serving Valtome and being forced to carry out his unreasonable demands. BK is very stoic and only gets mad when Sephiran is insulted. Furthermore, BK is trying to win Micaiah's loyalty. Being overtly hostile would not be a smart move on his part. 

You can argue that Sothe should have criticized her but he was too fixated on Micaiah allying herself with the BK because he's more concerned with Micaiah making friends with evil figures as opposed to her being too merciful because Sothe after all values morality above all else. 

Spoiler

Black Knight:
“I shall aid you. No matter what Jarod may plot, I will prevent it.”

Sothe:
“Micaiah and I don’t want your help!”

Micaiah:
“Sothe, stop that! In King Ashnard’s War, you served below General Ike, and you and the Black Knight were enemies. But now, you are comrades with the same goal–Daein’s restoration. Listen to me. The Black Knight was Daein’s strongest general. We need him.”

Black Knight:
“And I am willing to serve.”

Micaiah:
“Sir Knight… That you should come to us now, is surely the will of the goddess. I thank you for your aid just now, and ask you to lend us your strength a while longer.”

Black Knight:
“May my sword serve you well, Maiden of Dawn.”

Sothe:
“I don’t like this…”

BTW, I'm not arguing with you because I disagree with how well-written you think Micaiah is. This is a thread where you are free to drop opinions without people questioning it. The reason why I'm arguing is because I think that the argument I hear from people where they say Micaiah doesn't get punished is absurd because it's pretty baseless. It's not even an opinion, it's an incorrect statement such as saying the sky is green. 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Icelerate

[Troykv]

5 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

*quote*

 

Hey Ice; I think you're taking too seriously a post of someone that was just using Micaiah as an example; a clarification was enough xDU

[Icelerate]

1 minute ago, Troykv said:

 

Hey Ice; I think you're taking too seriously a post of someone that was just using Micaiah as an example; a clarification was enough xDU

Sure I got too fixated on a random point regardless of its validity. 

[JimmyBeans]

On 2/9/2019 at 11:06 PM, JimmyBeans said:

I will say this though, Michiah is a good character in my eyes and I think she feels pretty human for the most part, but what I meant by that is she personally didn't get punished by the game for letting Jarod go, it just panned immediately to her rallying everyone to save the day. It was a missed opportunity to be sure and I know I used her as an example but I really do think she is one of the better ones.

This was my response to your correction and I clearly explained myself, I can go edit my post if you want but I explained to you what I meant by that, you just chose to ignore it, or forgot about it and now you keep pressing that point. I also explained that it would of been better if say a soldier had a family in the capital and was upset at her for that decision.

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

First off, no where in the game is it stated Micaiah expected Jarod to sit around and wait for the inspection team. Second of all, I didn't claim she was smart for letting Jarod go. Not a fan of people who twist my statements. I actually despise it. 

Jarod was still in a fight with a weapon albeit about to lose before Alder popped in. The fight stopped after Alder's death and Jarod no longer had a weapon equipped.

I didn't start an argument. You made a wrong claim and I corrected you. 

Incorrect claim JimmyBeans: 

2. Michiah faced no real consequence for letting Jarod live, it is completely her fault he started bombarding the city with catapults and what not.

Fact Check Icelerate: 

No offense but you yourself falsified your initial statement. Him bombarding the city and killing scores of civilians is a pretty dire consequence. 

Okay you agree he's close to perfect. I don't think he's literally perfect either. 

No ill will shown =/= not being punished. 

 Once again stop making assertions about myself. I didn't say or imply she's a perfectly written character. You feeling like the game didn't show the consequences of Micaiah's faults is odd when you use Eliwood and Alm of all people to show how faults should be shown. Neither character whose shown to be very flawed so the comparison is moot. If you used someone like Hector, your argument would have more credence, as he's obviously more flawed.   

Izuka, one of the most vile putrid human beings in FE, was allowed to be right when he claimed Micaiah's heroism was making Pelleas' standing weaker. Both her and Pelleas were forced to acknowledge this fact. There was also the swamp trap where Tauroneo ends up agreeing with Izuka that going to a trap is too risky. If even someone as blatantly evil as Izuka is allowed to be right compared to Micaiah, you can see why I have a hard time agreeing with you that Micaiah is put on a higher pedestal than she deserves or that the game doesn't question Micaiah's decisions, values, etc. I don't remember off the top of my head when someone as evil as Izuka is allowed to have a point over any of the other FE lords. 

  Reveal hidden contents

“Wait! Where are you going?! You can’t take the laguz and rush off on some harebrained mission again!”

Micaiah:
“Can’t I?”

Izuka:
“Of course not, you idiot girl. You’ve already been far too impulsive, acting without the prince’s consent. And do you think I do not see what has happened? Your name has been raised to lavish heights among the Daein people–your name, and yours alone! Why, even our own soldiers heap their praise on you like sugar on berries, sparing not a thought for their prince!”

Micaiah:
“Oh…”

(Flashback)

Jarod:
“Hah! The prince! He’s a sham, a travesty, a clod of mud no amount of polishing could shine.”

Jarod:
“The real jewel–whose radiance attracts the people like moths to flame–is you, Priestess.”

Jarod:
“And so I shall steal you and extinguish Daein’s light of hope!!”

(End of flashback)

Izuka:
“And then, even once their rightful king is crowned, the people will still await the approval of their precious Priestess of Dawn. Why, if we are not careful, some calculating wretches might decide they would rather see a priestess on the throne instead of a king! And once again, this country will be torn apart, all because of your glory-hounding disregard for our prince’s command!”

Pelleas:
“Please, Izuka…”

Izuka:
“Come to think of it…perhaps our Priestess here has been planning this all along! Pretending to help the prince…when in truth she seeks to wear the crown herself!”

Sothe:
“Stop your tongue, worm, or my knife will stop it for you. The only one who seems too hungry for power here is you–“

???:
“That’s enough!!”

Pelleas:
“Izuka, Micaiah does not deserve any such attack on her character. She is pure and noble, and I… I am inadequate.”

Izuka:
“Have her actions poisoned your mind too, my prince?!”

Pelleas:
“Since we met, Micaiah has led every battle, even joining the soldiers on the battlefield. Not so with me. I…cannot defend my people. How could our people not rally around her? They see her fighting, throwing her lot in with their own. They respect her. That said, things cannot remain as they are. Izuka is right to worry about my standing. I need to earn my people’s respect. Therefore… Therefore, I must take action.”

Micaiah:
“Um…”

  Reveal hidden contents

Tauroneo (***)

Tauroneo: Sorry about this, Lady Micaiah. Just this once, I agree with Lord Izuka’s concerns.
Micaiah: I completely understand. This is my fight, and mine alone. Please keep the prince safe, General Tauroneo.

 

I do agree that Izuka should have criticized Micaiah for letting Jarod go and using it against her, criticizing her naive worldview which would  force Micaiah to acknowledge Izuka is right. But the Black Knight getting angry would be OoC considering how he refuses to get angry when serving Valtome and being forced to carry out his unreasonable demands. BK is very stoic and only gets mad when Sephiran is insulted. Furthermore, BK is trying to win Micaiah's loyalty. Being overtly hostile would not be a smart move on his part. 

You can argue that Sothe should have criticized her but he was too fixated on Micaiah allying herself with the BK because he's more concerned with Micaiah making friends with evil figures as opposed to her being too merciful because Sothe after all values morality above all else. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Black Knight:
“I shall aid you. No matter what Jarod may plot, I will prevent it.”

Sothe:
“Micaiah and I don’t want your help!”

Micaiah:
“Sothe, stop that! In King Ashnard’s War, you served below General Ike, and you and the Black Knight were enemies. But now, you are comrades with the same goal–Daein’s restoration. Listen to me. The Black Knight was Daein’s strongest general. We need him.”

Black Knight:
“And I am willing to serve.”

Micaiah:
“Sir Knight… That you should come to us now, is surely the will of the goddess. I thank you for your aid just now, and ask you to lend us your strength a while longer.”

Black Knight:
“May my sword serve you well, Maiden of Dawn.”

Sothe:
“I don’t like this…”

BTW, I'm not arguing with you because I disagree with how well-written you think Micaiah is. This is a thread where you are free to drop opinions without people questioning it. The reason why I'm arguing is because I think that the argument I hear from people where they say Micaiah doesn't get punished is absurd because it's pretty baseless. It's not even an opinion, it's an incorrect statement such as saying the sky is green. 

First of all I didn't twist your statement at all, do you not see the question mark? I really want to know what you meant by that because your first line in that response was this

Icelerate: Micaiah expected he'd be locked up after burying Alder, sent to trial and put to the death.

...So who did she expect to lock him up if she wasn't waiting for the inspection team... am I missing something here?

As for Jarod being unequipped only after Alder jumped this is simply incorrect as his defeat was in the gameplay immediately panning to this cut scene after he falls

Spoiler

 

After Battle

Black Knight:
“Make your peace. This blow will be your end.”

Jarod:
“Heh… How kind of you…”

Alder:
“Gugrh…”

Jarod:
“Alder?! You… Why are you here?”

 

He is clearly beaten and defenseless by this point, and the script doesn't say it but Jarod closes his eyes while saying "How kind of you". You could argue that this is up to interpretation but it seems pretty obvious to me.

Also about Alm yes that was the whole point, I was "fact checking" those who said Alm was simply perfect, sound familiar?

Like your friend mentioned it was an example, and I was comparing those characters to literally 1 point that I thought was weak for her character and the only other thing I stated that I found distasteful is she got shafted by Ike in my opinion, which isn't necessarily her fault. On the other hand I would of been fine with Izuka doing that, and infact that is an interesting point, I just wanted something you know? It just is a very silly reason, to me at least, for that final battle to happen. Also I agree that BK and Sothe are excused, which is why I said earlier maybe it would be better if Jarod had other means of escape to avoid that awkward situation in the story, but if there was a reasonable way for Izuka to find out and criticize her for it I will detract that statement.

And again my argument to begin with wasn't that she didn't get punished enough which is why I think this entire thing is absurd and overblown, the topic was that FE characters often are plagued by lack of personal consequence, and being liked and loved despite having made serious mistakes, and they aren't treated as such. I have said before that Michiah is one of the better ones and I think it was just that scene that really plagued her. If I would of known that this was all it was about this argument could of been long over, but now that I have explained myself are done marching to war?

 

[NekoKnight]

17 hours ago, Icelerate said:

You claimed Micaiah didn't get punished for letting Jarod go, despite her mistake costing a lot of lives and destruction.

While I generally like how Micaiah is written, I think it's worth pointing out that  other people suffering isn't a personal consequence to one's flaws unless that incident leaves a strong impact. Granted, the story had bigger fish to fry at the time but no one gives Micaiah grief for her mistake and I don't think she reflects on her actions that led to the destruction of the capital beyond that one scene.

Also, while it's presented as valid criticism, Micaiah is not wrong about several of her choices. People questioned and criticized Alm and Roy's choices but the criticism was invalid because those lords were always objectively right (if only because they succeeded). I guess the point I'm making is that a truly flawed character is one that is recognized as such and for the criticism to be valid.

There is a lot of good in the writing, however. Izuka is objectively correct about Micaiah upstaging Pelleas and Sothe was correct for criticizing Micaiah's morals in part 3.

[Ottservia]

17 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

While I generally like how Micaiah is written, I think it's worth pointing out that  other people suffering isn't a personal consequence to one's flaws unless that incident leaves a strong impact. Granted, the story had bigger fish to fry at the time but no one gives Micaiah grief for her mistake and I don't think she reflects on her actions that led to the destruction of the capital beyond that one scene.

Also, while it's presented as valid criticism, Micaiah is not wrong about several of her choices. People questioned and criticized Alm and Roy's choices but the criticism was invalid because those lords were always objectively right (if only because they succeeded). I guess the point I'm making is that a truly flawed character is one that is recognized as such and for the criticism to be valid.

There is a lot of good in the writing, however. Izuka is objectively correct about Micaiah upstaging Pelleas and Sothe was correct for criticizing Micaiah's morals in part 3.

you know this brings up somewhat of an interesting point. When you get right down to it, narrative in it of itself is inherently contrived. It's weird cause think about about it. As a writer you have complete control over the world, characters, and story and how they are progressed/explored. The fact of the matter is that everything that happens in a story is because the author made it happen and wanted it to happen. It's not necessarily a bad thing but it poses food for thought at least. Dunno where I was going with this but it's something to chew on anyway.

Then there's the whole question of what makes "flawed" character but I dunno. Ugh my brain hurts

Edited February 12, 2019 by Ottservia

[Interdimensional Observer]

5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

you know this brings up somewhat of an interesting point. When you get right down to it, narrative in it of itself is inherently contrived. It's weird cause think about about it. As a writer you have complete control over the world, characters, and story and how they are progressed/explored. The fact of the matter is that everything that happens in a story is because the author made it happen and wanted it to happen. It's not necessarily a bad thing but it poses food for thought at least. Dunno where I was going with this but it's something to chew on anyway.

It is good to step back once in a while and remember, contrary to how your mind becomes in the moment, all fiction is just that, fiction. Not real, conceived in the mind of a human and existing only there and whatever mediums this lie is stored.

 

19 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I guess the point I'm making is that a truly flawed character is one that is recognized as such and for the criticism to be valid.

You now make me question whether Hector is truly flawed. He does have a moment where somebody recognizes he has a flaw, Oswin, and Hector himself comes to see it. But does the flaw have validity? Does the flaw in question, which can be generalized as being emotional, have a moment when it is seriously detrimental?

[JimmyBeans]

8 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Given even Hector had no chance of rescuing Elbert, I wouldn't call the failure a flaw. Weakness, but not a flaw. It was impossible to rescue Elbert given how strong Nergal and his goons are.

A flaw is something a person could feasibly correct without the need for assistance. Eliwood could not have been strong enough to save Elbert unless he already had Athos at his side and Durandal and Aureola in hand.

If it were realistically possible for Eliwood to sneakily rescue Elbert successfully with no one by those he had at the Dragon's Gate, but for some reason Eliwood botched this stealth operation- perhaps brashness, perhaps he refused to allow a feint which would put someone else's life at risk, that would be a flaw.

Or, to use an ingame example of a flaw- Eliwood's Helene outburst. Could he have not done that by himself? Yes. He is normally courteous and mild and diplomatic, yet here, he forsook his usual restrain and had an outburst at Helene, almost dooming his chances of getting knowledge of the Shrine of Seals's location.

You make a good point but wasn't he weakened by that point (i really don't remember i'm just to lazy to read through the massive script)? Still though I'm not sure if that constitutes to even Hector standing a ghost of a chance against him but let's say he was weakened enough that they feasibly had somewhat of a chance to kill him, and hector and eliwood may not have had the ability so save him... but what about hector and a way better Eliwood that could pull his weight in the fight a lot more?

Of course this is all hypothetical and your point stands, but this just has me brainstorming.

Also I really like the idea of him botching the stealth mission, perhaps if they added a scene where they all, with Matthew of course, devised a plan and scouted ahead with the idea of sneaking in, which would be a sensible approach considering matthew's girl (rip) was found to be unsuccessful in the first infiltration. Or it just might be redundant and stupid considering someone renowned for her stealthiness failed in the attempt, it could go either way honestly.

Eliwood would then maybe hear some talking about his imprisoned father and break the stealth as you said (possibly) making it his fault Elbert died. What an interesting scenario.

[Icelerate]

2 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

This was my response to your correction and I clearly explained myself, I can go edit my post if you want but I explained to you what I meant by that, you just chose to ignore it, or forgot about it and now you keep pressing that point. I also explained that it would of been better if say a soldier had a family in the capital and was upset at her for that decision.

First of all I didn't twist your statement at all, do you not see the question mark? I really want to know what you meant by that because your first line in that response was this

Icelerate: Micaiah expected he'd be locked up after burying Alder, sent to trial and put to the death.

...So who did she expect to lock him up if she wasn't waiting for the inspection team... am I missing something here?

As for Jarod being unequipped only after Alder jumped this is simply incorrect as his defeat was in the gameplay immediately panning to this cut scene after he falls

  Reveal hidden contents

 

After Battle

Black Knight:
“Make your peace. This blow will be your end.”

Jarod:
“Heh… How kind of you…”

Alder:
“Gugrh…”

Jarod:
“Alder?! You… Why are you here?”

 

He is clearly beaten and defenseless by this point, and the script doesn't say it but Jarod closes his eyes while saying "How kind of you". You could argue that this is up to interpretation but it seems pretty obvious to me.

Also about Alm yes that was the whole point, I was "fact checking" those who said Alm was simply perfect, sound familiar?

Like your friend mentioned it was an example, and I was comparing those characters to literally 1 point that I thought was weak for her character and the only other thing I stated that I found distasteful is she got shafted by Ike in my opinion, which isn't necessarily her fault. On the other hand I would of been fine with Izuka doing that, and infact that is an interesting point, I just wanted something you know? It just is a very silly reason, to me at least, for that final battle to happen. Also I agree that BK and Sothe are excused, which is why I said earlier maybe it would be better if Jarod had other means of escape to avoid that awkward situation in the story, but if there was a reasonable way for Izuka to find out and criticize her for it I will detract that statement.

And again my argument to begin with wasn't that she didn't get punished enough which is why I think this entire thing is absurd and overblown, the topic was that FE characters often are plagued by lack of personal consequence, and being liked and loved despite having made serious mistakes, and they aren't treated as such. I have said before that Michiah is one of the better ones and I think it was just that scene that really plagued her. If I would of known that this was all it was about this argument could of been long over, but now that I have explained myself are done marching to war?

 

 

2 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

This was my response to your correction and I clearly explained myself, I can go edit my post if you want but I explained to you what I meant by that, you just chose to ignore it, or forgot about it and now you keep pressing that point. I also explained that it would of been better if say a soldier had a family in the capital and was upset at her for that decision.

Why would soldiers be upset at Micaiah instead of Jarod? What type of lunacy is this? Jarod is the one directly causing the casualties so they'd pin the blame on Jarod especially since he's the enemy and Micaiah is their beloved savior. When a person gains a cult of personality, their flaws, far worse than Micaiah's are purposely overlooked by hardcore fanatics. 

I didn't ignore anything. Your response to my correction doesn't invalidate my correction. Because, not getting yelled on =/= no personal consequences. 

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First of all I didn't twist your statement at all, do you not see the question mark? I really want to know what you meant by that because your first line in that response was this

Icelerate: Micaiah expected he'd be locked up after burying Alder, sent to trial and put to the death.

...So who did she expect to lock him up if she wasn't waiting for the inspection team... am I missing something here?

I see the question mark but asking such a foolish question does mean you're questioning my intelligence. 

The Begnion occupation forces in the capital. 

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As for Jarod being unequipped only after Alder jumped this is simply incorrect as his defeat was in the gameplay immediately panning to this cut scene after he falls

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He is clearly beaten and defenseless by this point, and the script doesn't say it but Jarod closes his eyes while saying "How kind of you". You could argue that this is up to interpretation but it seems pretty obvious to me.

In that case, either the Black Knight is an inconsistent character or he thought taking Alder's life was enough to conclude the battle and didn't want to stain his blood twice. 

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Like your friend mentioned it was an example, and I was comparing those characters to literally 1 point that I thought was weak for her character and the only other thing I stated that I found distasteful is she got shafted by Ike in my opinion, which isn't necessarily her fault. On the other hand I would of been fine with Izuka doing that, and infact that is an interesting point, I just wanted something you know? It just is a very silly reason, to me at least, for that final battle to happen. Also I agree that BK and Sothe are excused, which is why I said earlier maybe it would be better if Jarod had other means of escape to avoid that awkward situation in the story, but if there was a reasonable way for Izuka to find out and criticize her for it I will detract that statement.

Agreed. 

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And again my argument to begin with wasn't that she didn't get punished enough which is why I think this entire thing is absurd and overblown, the topic was that FE characters often are plagued by lack of personal consequence, and being liked and loved despite having made serious mistakes, and they aren't treated as such. I have said before that Michiah is one of the better ones and I think it was just that scene that really plagued her. If I would of known that this was all it was about this argument could of been long over, but now that I have explained myself are done marching to war?

Initially, you mentioned Micaiah as one of three examples along with Corrin who is infamous for being a terrible character so how was I supposed to know you think Micaiah is one of he better ones?

Secondly, it was made obvious this was a serious mistake from the get go. Making mistakes doesn't mean people are no longer allowed to love you. What type of logic is this? 

It's like arguing that Ephraim and Eirika aren't flawed when they lose Renais' sacred stone just because they personally don't suffer for it. It's quite clear they both made a bad move. 

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

While I generally like how Micaiah is written, I think it's worth pointing out that  other people suffering isn't a personal consequence to one's flaws unless that incident leaves a strong impact. Granted, the story had bigger fish to fry at the time but no one gives Micaiah grief for her mistake and I don't think she reflects on her actions that led to the destruction of the capital beyond that one scene.

Also, while it's presented as valid criticism, Micaiah is not wrong about several of her choices. People questioned and criticized Alm and Roy's choices but the criticism was invalid because those lords were always objectively right (if only because they succeeded). I guess the point I'm making is that a truly flawed character is one that is recognized as such and for the criticism to be valid.

There is a lot of good in the writing, however. Izuka is objectively correct about Micaiah upstaging Pelleas and Sothe was correct for criticizing Micaiah's morals in part 3.

Micaiah is forced to go out in a final battle when it could all have been avoided. I think being forced to go out for an extra pointless battle is personal punishment that surpasses someone scolding you by far. I'd rather someone get mad at me than being forced to go to war. 

She also indirectly mentioned her reluctance to kill Jarod, the first time around, when she entered Daein keep. 

Spoiler

Micaiah:
“That shout…that’s Jarod! For Daein’s sake, this time I swear I will put an end to him.”

Micaiah not being always wrong is good. I don't want a lord that is always wrong either or else why are they even on such a pedestal to begin with? 

Also, other lords like Hector weren't criticized enough for his merciless nature. 

Spoiler

Soldier:
“A friend? What? …Urrrgh!!”

Hector:
“Sorry, but I’m in a hurry.”

Serra:
“Ewww! That’s terrible! I loathe violence!”

Oswin:
“I cannot condone resorting to force so quickly…”

Hector:
“Chastise me later, Oswin. First, we deal with these brigands! Come! We must help Eliwood!”

Oswin:
“Help Eliwood? Sounds like a convenient excuse for more violence.”

Hector:
“Oswin!”

Oswin:
“Yes, yes. I’m coming!”

And Hector resorting to violence so quickly against a neutral bystander was never brought up again. 

Lyn and Eliwood don't even criticize Hector for threatening to kill Jaffar right in Nino's face.  

Spoiler

Hector:
“Get out of my way, Eliwood! I’m going to kill him!!”

Nino:
“Stop it!”

Jaffar:
“……”

Hector:
“Hey! Why don’t you draw your sword?”

Jaffar:
“I’ve not been ordered to.”

Hector:
“Ordered to?”

Jaffar:
“……”

Nino:
“Please… Forgive Jaffar. I beg you…”

Jaffar:
“Nino.”

Hector:
“Bah… You live… for now. You’re nothing more than a tool. It serves no one to break tools. It’s more important that we stop Nergal. But don’t forget, I don’t forgive you anything.”

 

As far as I'm concerned being merciless is a worse flaw than being merciful and Micaiah has more personal consequences than Hector.

I don't mean to demean Hector as I think he's very well-written as well but alas both characters can be improved. My point is that Micaiah's flaws have more weight than most FE lords.