BlackSymphony

What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

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8 hours ago, Slumber said:

Leif doesn't measure up to Halvan or Orsin, but he really doesn't need to(Especially since Orsin is probably the most powerful physical unit in the game). Most of the enemies for a while are axe users, and Leif gets a Light Brand right off the bat, which lets him attack and be safe from a distance, functions as a vulnerary AND makes Leif a pseudo-dodgetank, buffing his luck by 10. Individual enemies in Thracia 776 also aren't particularly difficult to deal with, the main source of difficulty coming more from objectives and map layouts. His bases are poop, but his growths are solid, and use of scrolls(That he'll probably be carrying most of the time) boost his growths by 30% for each one he's holding.

And even then, its not like the enemies are super strong so Leif won't face a lot of issues either way.

@ChibiToastExplosion All I ever said that Roy is hard to deal with. Is that such a thing to not understand?

And I like the game better now despite its glaring issues. I have nothing against the ones who like the game, I don't at all. Since the topic of Roy was brought up, all I did was just stated that he has issues regardless of whether you like him or not.

I didn't even bash the game so much and if at all I did, its all counter attacked anyways like a billion times now.

 

Edited by Harvey

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31 minutes ago, Harvey said:

 All I ever said that Roy is hard to deal with. Is that such a thing to not understand?

Incredibly hard to understand, especially when a lot of your arguments cross the line from opinion to actually, and provably, wrong.

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Ok then fine, I'm not going to bother about FE6 anymore here. Even if people find things that I don't find them fine.

That out of the way, Here's one that I don't get why a lot don't favour over.....pre-promotes.

I mean I get that an unpromote can grow further being that they start off and they get promotion gains as well but a pre-promote just saves that amount of time spent on training said pre-promote. I mean, lets take someone like Camus and Matilda. If they both end up with similar stats, then how exactly is Matilda any better than Camus? and if at all Matilda dies, Camus can just fit that role nicely. Only difference is that he has slight stat differences and that's that.

I don't know, that's just me I guess.

 

 

 

Edited by Harvey

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1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Here's one that I don't get why a lot don't favour over.....pre-promotes.

I mean I get that an unpromote can grow further being that they start off and they get promotion gains as well but a pre-promote just saves that amount of time spent on training said pre-promote. I mean, lets take someone like Camus and Matilda. If they both end up with similar stats, then how exactly is Matilda any better than Camus? and if at all Matilda dies, Camus can just fit that role nicely. Only difference is that he has slight stat differences and that's that.

I don't know, that's just me I guess.

Hm…I've never really thought about why I don't use prepromotes, actually. I think for me a lot of them are just characters I don't really like, like Frederick, Seth, or Gunter, and I only really use characters that appeal to me, while others are really bad for their join time, like Reina or Yukimura. There is one prepromote I totally love using, though - Marcus. Sorry to bring FE6 back up after you just tried to leave it behind, but I finally started my first run and holy cow, Marcus. He pretty much waltzed through the entire first 7 Chapters, my only difficulty before Lilina's Chapter was when I accidentally let Shanna wander into a Nomad's range because I wasn't paying enough attention.

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On 10/13/2017 at 12:17 PM, SoulWeaver said:

What exactly is it about the 2-Gen mechanic you dislike? If it's just the way a specific game did the idea, then you may want to clarify that. If it's just the idea of playing through 2 Generations of characters, then that should be specified.

I'm going to second this with a slight change as I feel every Lord has the potential to be an amazing Unit: I like Lords that are great Units with little if any effort on my part, in part because playing with overpowered Units is awesome and in part because I'm a touch lazy when Supports aren't involved.

You're right I should have clarified what I meant, I just didn't feel like going into detail with every single point. So for starters I don't like how the children do not feel important of needed for the story, there's no point at which you need to recruit these characters or else miss out on them all together. At least Awakening had war council scenes where Lucina was present making her seem like a more essential member. Now while Awakening handled this better I don't like the whole time travel or in the case of Fates an outrealm with a different time zone idea. I think it's the whole kids being the same age as their parents theme that's been done twice. Awakening was all about time travel so I was able to buy into that idea more easily, Fates by contrast had nothing to do with time travel so how the kids were implemented was less convincing.

Another thing that I don't like about it is in Fates by the time you have gotten the parents to S support the game is probably going to be about half way over unless one was DLC grinding for supports. What I'm saying is I don't think the game has enough battles or chapters to include the kids, this is especially true on Revelations. Also I think it's a lazy way to fill up the roster, where it seems like about half the roster size is made up of child characters. And when this is done it feels like the game is focused too heavily on supports where you need to start pairing off units immediately or else miss out on half the potential roster. Which I find to be a pain unless one is Support grinding as I like to call it on DLC battles or something.

As I touched on briefly I dislike how the kids are supposed to be roughly the same age as the parents. Where I think if kids are going to be included there should be an actual time jump say for example Part 3 of a FE game is where the kids are introduced and there's a 15 or so time jump where the parents are all 15 years older making the kids all about 15 years old. Time travel also works but I tend to think that there's only so many times you can pull off the time travel explanation.

Primarily why I dislike the child mechanic boils down to 1) The work involved in recruiting the kids 2) The kids seem to make up half the complete roster size 3) The kids being about the same age as their parents 4) Lack of importance to the plot 5) How they are integrated into the game and story

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9 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

You're right I should have clarified what I meant, I just didn't feel like going into detail with every single point. So for starters I don't like how the children do not feel important of needed for the story, there's no point at which you need to recruit these characters or else miss out on them all together. At least Awakening had war council scenes where Lucina was present making her seem like a more essential member. Now while Awakening handled this better I don't like the whole time travel or in the case of Fates an outrealm with a different time zone idea. I think it's the whole kids being the same age as their parents theme that's been done twice. Awakening was all about time travel so I was able to buy into that idea more easily, Fates by contrast had nothing to do with time travel so how the kids were implemented was less convincing.

Another thing that I don't like about it is in Fates by the time you have gotten the parents to S support the game is probably going to be about half way over unless one was DLC grinding for supports. What I'm saying is I don't think the game has enough battles or chapters to include the kids, this is especially true on Revelations. Also I think it's a lazy way to fill up the roster, where it seems like about half the roster size is made up of child characters. And when this is done it feels like the game is focused too heavily on supports where you need to start pairing off units immediately or else miss out on half the potential roster. Which I find to be a pain unless one is Support grinding as I like to call it on DLC battles or something.

As I touched on briefly I dislike how the kids are supposed to be roughly the same age as the parents. Where I think if kids are going to be included there should be an actual time jump say for example Part 3 of a FE game is where the kids are introduced and there's a 15 or so time jump where the parents are all 15 years older making the kids all about 15 years old. Time travel also works but I tend to think that there's only so many times you can pull off the time travel explanation.

Primarily why I dislike the child mechanic boils down to 1) The work involved in recruiting the kids 2) The kids seem to make up half the complete roster size 3) The kids being about the same age as their parents 4) Lack of importance to the plot 5) How they are integrated into the game and story

That's a pretty good explanation. I think that the children scenario definitely wasn't done right in Fates. Awakening is allowed off because it was a fresh idea for anyone who hadn't played Genealogy or Thracia, and it was time travel, which is always interesting as long as it's a one-of kind of mechanic. Fates was bad because it was a poorly-rehashed repeat of an idea.

To address the work involved in recruiting the kids, again, Awakening did this fairly well as not all the children ended up in the same time or place(which is actually sort of unintentionally explained in Hidden Truths, where Anankos states that time travel is taboo, and marvels that Naga was even able to send all the child Units - if she was sending so many people through time, it makes sense that she couldn't make them all go to the same spot), so it would make sense that you would need to go all over the place to find them. Fates, meanwhile, just randomly had every single DeepRealm you left the kids in all somehow happen to have ill befall them.

I like the interesting discussions that arise from the children being around the parents' ages, such as Sumia and Cynthia's C-Support, but I didn't like that they were ALL the same age as the parents were - there should have been at least three who were super young(Nah doesn't count because Manaketes age differently) or super old(Rhajat doesn't count either because Hayato can't be over 15 by the end of Fates so when she says she's older than he is it's not actually that impressive).

The Child-To-Adult Ratio definitely feels off, even though it's not actually as bad as 50-50. I'm not really sure how to fix that, though, so I guess I can't really address that here.

Overall, it sounds like a Genealogy remake might be your solution, provided they kept to the original script with the time skip and everything.

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7 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

That's a pretty good explanation. I think that the children scenario definitely wasn't done right in Fates. Awakening is allowed off because it was a fresh idea for anyone who hadn't played Genealogy or Thracia, and it was time travel, which is always interesting as long as it's a one-of kind of mechanic. Fates was bad because it was a poorly-rehashed repeat of an idea.

To address the work involved in recruiting the kids, again, Awakening did this fairly well as not all the children ended up in the same time or place(which is actually sort of unintentionally explained in Hidden Truths, where Anankos states that time travel is taboo, and marvels that Naga was even able to send all the child Units - if she was sending so many people through time, it makes sense that she couldn't make them all go to the same spot), so it would make sense that you would need to go all over the place to find them. Fates, meanwhile, just randomly had every single DeepRealm you left the kids in all somehow happen to have ill befall them.

I like the interesting discussions that arise from the children being around the parents' ages, such as Sumia and Cynthia's C-Support, but I didn't like that they were ALL the same age as the parents were - there should have been at least three who were super young(Nah doesn't count because Manaketes age differently) or super old(Rhajat doesn't count either because Hayato can't be over 15 by the end of Fates so when she says she's older than he is it's not actually that impressive).

The Child-To-Adult Ratio definitely feels off, even though it's not actually as bad as 50-50. I'm not really sure how to fix that, though, so I guess I can't really address that here.

Overall, it sounds like a Genealogy remake might be your solution, provided they kept to the original script with the time skip and everything.

SoulWeaver, I just wanted to say thank you for your compliment and I'm glad that you found my explanation satisfactory. I also agree with what you had to say about Awakening incorporating the kids better. I think one way of fixing the roster ratio would be to bring back the Gaiden chapters that the GBA and other FE games have had, and these chapters a cool character and good unit is recruited, rather than instead of Gaiden chapters we have Paralogue which are almost exclusively reserved for the 2nd gen characters. Another alternative would be including some late game pre promotes but of a king Caneighas caliber. Where yes he/she joins late and probably won't level up at all BUT they don't need any level ups due to how awesome they're bases are. I also am not completely sure what the solution is but, I think these two options would help with the roster ratio a little bit. And yes, I agree that it's not quite an even 50-50 split but in Fates and especially on Revelations it definitely FEELS like it's 50-50 which is why I said about because it might more be like 1/3 of the roster or something.

I would LOVE a Genealogy remake especially as that would entail 3d models of units like Sigurd and Lex, both of whom would look awesome in 3d. 

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23 hours ago, ping said:

I wasn't aware how good the Light Brand in T776 is - thanks for clarifying that.

Anyway, I don't disagree with your post at all; Roy's earlygame is certainly more rough than other's. However, I see that more as a testament that FE6 is a difficult game and less that Roy is extraordinarily weak. Because you could make similar cases for most of BB's cast - Lowen, Franz and Oscar (even though the latter is lancelocked) have less trouble staying alive and will double sooner and/or more consistently than Alan and Lance. It's way easier to keep Neimi permanently on the team and contributing than Wolt. It's easier to get Nino, Ewan or Amelia to function than Sophia or Wendy. FE6!Marcus is more vulnerable than his younger self, Seth, or Titania, although unlike them, he's actually closer to the rest of the party's power level, too, so I don't consider him supporting my point.

I guess said point is that Roy's position inside the cast of FE6 isn't out of the ordinary for an FE lord, at least from the GBA era. Sure, he'd clearly be in the bottom half or third of a ranking, but the same is true for Eliwood, Lyn (especially No-Lyn-Mode-Lyn) and probably Eirika, too. Ike might be better off, but before he finally packs out Ragnell, he has neither a horse nor (meaningful) 1-2 range. That's why I find it overblown to single him out as an incredibly weak lord - don't blame the player, blame the game, I suppose. ;)

Roy had the same total stats as Allance but most of them is on Luck. His bases actually legit sucks balls

 

Also saying "he isn't out of ordinary from GBA era" isn't saying much. Almost every GBA Lord are on the bottom half of FE Lord Tier list. If FE11 Marth doesn't exist GBAFE would have the undisputed lowest lord power level in the entire series(the highest being SNES era and DS era because their lord ranges from ridiculously good into broken)

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

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1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Roy had the same total stats as Allance but most of them is on Luck. His bases actually legit sucks balls

Eliwood has identical base stats to Roy (exept +1 Con, iirc), while Lowen has better bases than Alance (as strong as Allen, right in the middle between them in Spd, and a bit more bulk). Even Rebecca is very slightly better than Wolt (+1 Spd). ;)

Again, I wasn't saying that Roy was a good unit by any metric - I just don't agree with people singling him out as an extraordinarily weak lord when his position inside FE6's roster (i.e. not rock bottom, but clearly below average) isn't that different from Eliwood, Lyn, Eirika and even FE9!Ike before he gets his Sword+10 in their respective games.

1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

(the highest being SNES era and DS era because their lord ranges from ridiculously good into broken)

btw, do you mean SNES and _3_DS? NMotE!Marth isn't half bad, but as you said, SD!Marth is.

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20 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

Hm…I've never really thought about why I don't use prepromotes, actually. I think for me a lot of them are just characters I don't really like, like Frederick, Seth, or Gunter, and I only really use characters that appeal to me, while others are really bad for their join time, like Reina or Yukimura. There is one prepromote I totally love using, though - Marcus. Sorry to bring FE6 back up after you just tried to leave it behind, but I finally started my first run and holy cow, Marcus. He pretty much waltzed through the entire first 7 Chapters, my only difficulty before Lilina's Chapter was when I accidentally let Shanna wander into a Nomad's range because I wasn't paying enough attention.

Honestly, I think pre-promotes can be good if time is spent on them. The idea of a prepromote is to help players make the game in a winnable situation which is why FE tends to give you Gotoh units at the end if you somehow end up screwed. In that sense, they are totally handy and is actually good game balance imo.

However, for hardcore, if they know what they are doing, they can just break the game pretty easily. Some FE games don't always give you replacement units when in time of need and even if they do, they can probably end up being worse than what you had earlier which is where I think FE7 gave you a lot of overpowered units to avoid that issue although Marcus doesn't need that level of buffness if you ask me.

 

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3 hours ago, ping said:

I just don't agree with people singling him out as an extraordinarily weak lord when his position inside FE6's roster (i.e. not rock bottom, but clearly below average) isn't that different from Eliwood, Lyn, Eirika and even FE9!Ike before he gets his Sword+10 in their respective games.

Roy is quite a bit worse than all of those.

-He promotes significantly after all of them; only Eliwood Mode Eliwood comes close. This torpedoes his use as soon as his allies start promoting.

-Lyn and Eirika have better base speed (and growth) which makes them far better at doubling. Both also get softballed some easy chapters to level up in, especially Lyn.

-Eirika promotes to get a horse and a ridiculous 21-might (37 vs monsters) super-sword with a meaningful amount of game left.

-Speaking of swords, all four have better first Prf weapons; Roy's Rapier is the same might as an Iron Sword.

-FE9!Ike gets earth supports midgame which make his durability incredible (that Oscar support in particular is way too fast). Admittedly Roy gets some pretty good supports too, but not that good.

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3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Roy is quite a bit worse than all of those.

-He promotes significantly after all of them; only Eliwood Mode Eliwood comes close. This torpedoes his use as soon as his allies start promoting.

-Lyn and Eirika have better base speed (and growth) which makes them far better at doubling. Both also get softballed some easy chapters to level up in, especially Lyn.

-Eirika promotes to get a horse and a ridiculous 21-might (37 vs monsters) super-sword with a meaningful amount of game left.

-Speaking of swords, all four have better first Prf weapons; Roy's Rapier is the same might as an Iron Sword.

-FE9!Ike gets earth supports midgame which make his durability incredible (that Oscar support in particular is way too fast). Admittedly Roy gets some pretty good supports too, but not that good.

Honestly theres a problem with discussing supports in FEGBA and thats because they are legitimately crazy broken in that game, but people (reasonably due to how the support works) ignores them despite that

increasing your evasion by 15 by chapter 3 is broken. Theres no other way to put it

 

7 hours ago, ping said:

Eliwood has identical base stats to Roy (exept +1 Con, iirc), while Lowen has better bases than Alance (as strong as Allen, right in the middle between them in Spd, and a bit more bulk). Even Rebecca is very slightly better than Wolt (+1 Spd). ;)

Again, I wasn't saying that Roy was a good unit by any metric - I just don't agree with people singling him out as an extraordinarily weak lord when his position inside FE6's roster (i.e. not rock bottom, but clearly below average) isn't that different from Eliwood, Lyn, Eirika and even FE9!Ike before he gets his Sword+10 in their respective games.

btw, do you mean SNES and _3_DS? NMotE!Marth isn't half bad, but as you said, SD!Marth is.

Yeah i meant 3DS

NMOTE Marth was funny since he's pretty good early, bad mid, and good late. He didn't get good before Brave Sword

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3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Roy is quite a bit worse than all of those.

-He promotes significantly after all of them; only Eliwood Mode Eliwood comes close. This torpedoes his use as soon as his allies start promoting.

-Lyn and Eirika have better base speed (and growth) which makes them far better at doubling. Both also get softballed some easy chapters to level up in, especially Lyn.

-Eirika promotes to get a horse and a ridiculous 21-might (37 vs monsters) super-sword with a meaningful amount of game left.

-Speaking of swords, all four have better first Prf weapons; Roy's Rapier is the same might as an Iron Sword.

-FE9!Ike gets earth supports midgame which make his durability incredible (that Oscar support in particular is way too fast). Admittedly Roy gets some pretty good supports too, but not that good.

Honestly theres a problem with discussing supports in FEGBA and thats because they are legitimately crazy broken in that game, but people (reasonably due to how the support works) ignores them despite that

increasing your evasion by 15 by chapter 3 is broken. Theres no other way to put it

 

7 hours ago, ping said:

Eliwood has identical base stats to Roy (exept +1 Con, iirc), while Lowen has better bases than Alance (as strong as Allen, right in the middle between them in Spd, and a bit more bulk). Even Rebecca is very slightly better than Wolt (+1 Spd). ;)

Again, I wasn't saying that Roy was a good unit by any metric - I just don't agree with people singling him out as an extraordinarily weak lord when his position inside FE6's roster (i.e. not rock bottom, but clearly below average) isn't that different from Eliwood, Lyn, Eirika and even FE9!Ike before he gets his Sword+10 in their respective games.

btw, do you mean SNES and _3_DS? NMotE!Marth isn't half bad, but as you said, SD!Marth is.

Yeah i meant 3DS

NMOTE Marth was funny since he's pretty good early, bad mid, and good late. He didn't get good before Brave Sword

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5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

-He promotes significantly after all of them; only Eliwood Mode Eliwood comes close. This torpedoes his use as soon as his allies start promoting.

Actually, the Renais Twins promote at around the same time as Roy: 4 chapters before Endgame. Roy promotes 3 chapters before Endgame but his chapters are a bit longer.

5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Admittedly Roy gets some pretty good supports too, but not that good.

I dunno, Roy's Supports with Lilina are pretty amazing. And it's the only Support he ever really needs imo. Then again, i speak from my experience with Normal Mode. I don't play FE6 Hard.

Edited by Armagon

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59 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Actually, the Renais Twins promote at around the same time as Roy: 4 chapters before Endgame. Roy promotes 3 chapters before Endgame but his chapters are a bit longer.

The Renais twins promote 5 maps before Endgame. More importantly, the twins promote after the 16th map of the game (17th if you count the Prologue; I'm not counting 5x since no unit participates in both that and the earlygame), maybe 2 maps after the median unit in your army at most, while Roy promotes after the 27th, around 10 after the median unit in your army. It's a huge difference.

 

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

I dunno, Roy's Supports with Lilina are pretty amazing.

Roy's support with Lilina grants 3 atk / 1 def / 7 avo (and some hit/crit), while Ike/Oscar grants 30 (!!) avo. I suppose it's fair to point out that Ike9 actually ends up with lower Atk than Roy for the midgame (scaling for the different atk averages in each game) because he misses out on this Atk, but I don't feel it offsets Ike9's other advantages or especially close.

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2 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Honestly theres a problem with discussing supports in FEGBA and thats because they are legitimately crazy broken in that game, but people (reasonably due to how the support works) ignores them despite that

increasing your evasion by 15 by chapter 3 is broken. Theres no other way to put it

Yeah, with the right Affinity (FirexFire), you can in three fights with a few megagrams of turn wasting, get +15 Avoid, Crit, and +3 Atk. Not quite EarthxEarth good, but still pretty amazing. Plenty of other combinations can give you two of those things, and or +3 Def/Res, or +15 Hit or Crit Evade. Add a B support to this for an extra +1 Atk/Def and +5 anything else.

I find GBA Affinities more confusing though, since each Affinity offers four bonuses instead of the one or two of Tellius. It helps that the Affinities there are paired- Heaven and Earth offer opposite boosts, as do Wind and Water, Fire and Thunder, and Light and Dark.

I wouldn't mind the return of Affinities in all honesty. Which I think some would fine a bother. The minor Affinity Chapter Bonus of RD wasn't bad either- but I will say no to Biorhythm in it's RD variant (-10% to Skill Activation rate at Worst was bad), the weaker PoR one is okay though. 

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1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Yeah, with the right Affinity (FirexFire), you can in three fights with a few megagrams of turn wasting, get +15 Avoid, Crit, and +3 Atk. Not quite EarthxEarth good, but still pretty amazing. Plenty of other combinations can give you two of those things, and or +3 Def/Res, or +15 Hit or Crit Evade. Add a B support to this for an extra +1 Atk/Def and +5 anything else.

I find GBA Affinities more confusing though, since each Affinity offers four bonuses instead of the one or two of Tellius. It helps that the Affinities there are paired- Heaven and Earth offer opposite boosts, as do Wind and Water, Fire and Thunder, and Light and Dark.

I wouldn't mind the return of Affinities in all honesty. Which I think some would fine a bother. The minor Affinity Chapter Bonus of RD wasn't bad either- but I will say no to Biorhythm in it's RD variant (-10% to Skill Activation rate at Worst was bad), the weaker PoR one is okay though. 

I mean honestly speaking the PU bonus of fe14 are practically affinity

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Just now, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

I mean honestly speaking the PU bonus of fe14 are practically affinity

I did once think of it like that actually, except it's even more customizable per individual since they aren't forced into a particular set among several as to what they offer.

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