What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Harvey]

19 hours ago, Jedi said:

Actually the main idea of FE casts (and why they used to be so gigantic) was that they were effectively replacements if people died. That was the older mentality anyways.

Also the generics tend to have funny stats and people use them for challenge/goofy runs.

Not sure if I can agree with this. Replacements are not generally well balanced except in rare cases. Astram can't replace Ogier for example. 

 

It's incredibly helpful for drafts.  The generics also come with iron weapons, which can either be used or sold.

The game initself is easy....so why bother with this idea?

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Harvey

[Modamy]

21 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Not sure if I can agree with this. Replacements are not generally well balanced except in rare cases. Astram can't replace Ogier for example. 

 

It's incredibly helpful for drafts.  The generics also come with iron weapons, which can either be used or sold.

 

The game initself is easy....so why bother with this idea?

 

Fire Emblem games were originally intended to be ironman'd and getting worse units as replacements for the better guys you lost earlier were supposed to be punishments and incentivize you to play smarter to keep you best guys alive. There was never any attempt to balance the units obtained throughout the game. So Astram being worse than Ogma was completely the point.

[Harvey]

On 5/24/2018 at 9:48 PM, Modamy said:

Fire Emblem games were originally intended to be ironman'd and getting worse units as replacements for the better guys you lost earlier were supposed to be punishments and incentivize you to play smarter to keep you best guys alive. There was never any attempt to balance the units obtained throughout the game. So Astram being worse than Ogma was completely the point.

Again, I'm not sure in this aspect. Many of the games were kind of unbalanced in that part and in other cases, characters have to be alive to unlock other chapters and while that can create an additional challenge, if you're not going to use them, what's the point of the idea?

If you lose Rutger, you'll never beat Henning and it makes the game unwinnable(Its doable in NM but again, if he's solid, why not use him instead of a Cavalier?) unless I'm not mistaken. Getting replacements in New Mystery is almost never going to happen except for the Sable Knights I think?

I wonder if instead of giving hard mode bonuses in FE6 or 7, they just nerf them on higher difficulties so that they don't end up as dominant as they are now..but then again, how else can you beat Henning?

Anyways..as for my unpopular opinion, The final boss in FE6 is well done. People often bash at the final map for it being the worst due to how horribly easy the final boss is requiring little to no effort and yeah, I am not going to dispute that because it is horribly easy...but how else can it be done?

If you want the best ending, you have to use Roy and to make Roy chip heavy damage to Idoun, you need the sword of seals. Even though you have a hammerine staff, you're not going to use it on the SoS unless you somehow manage to beat the notorious chapter 21 without the staff as you will most likely abuse it for the warp and the rescue staves or whatever. Since the legendary weapons have almost low usages, the devs had to make the map and enemies to a less extent to avoid making it unwinnable. For that reason, in my opinion, it is why I think the final map is well done on that part. 

 

 

[eclipse]

. . .never beat Henning?

Uhhh. . .there's this guy named Marcus you get, who's perfectly capable of wielding a Silver Lance, which does most of Henning's health in one hit. . .

Or if you used one of Allen/Lance, they work too.  Or maybe that Dieck guy, I hear he's pretty solid.

The game gives you options.  It's up to you, the player, to take advantage of them.

Edited May 27, 2018 by eclipse

[ping]

Whittling him down from 2 range works, too. Just rescue/drop your units out of his range to prevent him from switching to his Hand Axe. Tedious, since hit rates tend to be around 50-60 displayed hit, but possible, even with zero risk of a blue unit dying. No unit in FE6 is irreplacable, except maybe Marcus in chapter 1.

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Uhhh. . .there's this guy named Marcus you get, who's perfectly capable of wielding a Silver Lance, which does most of Henning's health in one hit. . .

That's a bit exaggerated, though. ;) Marcus deals like 10 damage and gets doubled in return if Henning switches to his hand axe. Early promoted Rutger is the best option by far, but of course I agree that the chapter (and the game) are still beatable without him.

[Magical Glace]

24 minutes ago, ping said:

Whittling him down from 2 range works, too. Just rescue/drop your units out of his range to prevent him from switching to his Hand Axe. Tedious, since hit rates tend to be around 50-60 displayed hit, but possible, even with zero risk of a blue unit dying. No unit in FE6 is irreplacable, except maybe Marcus in chapter 1.

That's a bit exaggerated, though. ;) Marcus deals like 10 damage and gets doubled in return if Henning switches to his hand axe. Early promoted Rutger is the best option by far, but of course I agree that the chapter (and the game) are still beatable without him.

I’ve gotten through FE6 Hard Chapter 1 where the only thing Marcus did was grab the village.  It took me 35 turns but it’s possible. That said if you kill Marcus in Chapter 1 you’d have to be playing pretty badly.

Chapters 4 and 7 are more worrying than chapter 1, you really need him to at least be able to meatshield in the former and maybe attack in the latter

[Lau]

- The best rendition of the main FE theme is that one Marth character theme from that CD. It's so beautiful. Honourable mention goes to TMS' opera of light.

- Awakening and Fates had rather...forgettable soundtracks. Don't get me wrong, there are some tracks like ID Purpose and Don't Speak Her Name that are absolutely godly, but other than that...

[Von Ithipathachai]

4 minutes ago, Lau said:

- The best rendition of the main FE theme is that one Marth character theme from that CD. It's so beautiful. Honourable mention goes to TMS' opera of light.

- Awakening and Fates had rather...forgettable soundtracks. Don't get me wrong, there are some tracks like ID Purpose and Don't Speak Her Name that are absolutely godly, but other than that...

I always found Awakening's soundtrack to be the most memorable.  That might be because it was my first Fire Emblem game, but whatever.  Fates's soundtrack has its moments, but I don't find it to be quite as good.

[Harvey]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

. . .never beat Henning?

Uhhh. . .there's this guy named Marcus you get, who's perfectly capable of wielding a Silver Lance, which does most of Henning's health in one hit. . .

Or if you used one of Allen/Lance, they work too.  Or maybe that Dieck guy, I hear he's pretty solid.

The game gives you options.  It's up to you, the player, to take advantage of them.

Ok..what about hard mode?

 

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

What about Lilina!?
Henning has 3 res even in HM.
Just make sure to keep her out of his 1-2 attack range not to make him switch to the hand axe.
And if her hitrate is bad, then take your time to build the A-support.


Seriously even chapter 8's boss is tougher without Rutger because of having higher resistance and weapon advantage against swords.

[Modamy]

Well, I guess I'll mirror the answers of others and just say to range him out. I usually find it it to risky to get in his face even on normal mode and though Lilina might work it would just be faster to use early promoted Lugh.

Also @Harvey I really meant the original games like Fire Emblem 1 and even in the case of Binding Blade where bosses are much harder if you lack certain units I think just proves my point. They weren't trying to make the units balanced in a lot of cases they were only making replacements the player could use if they lost the original and those replacements weren't as good.

Ex.Ogier is not as good as Dieck, Noah and Treck are not as good as Lance and Allen, Fir is not as good as Rutger, Lilina not as good as Lugh, and Barth and Gwendolyn aren't as good as Bors (although all three of them are still pretty bad).

[Reality]

3 hours ago, Hecatia Lapislazuli said:

What about Lilina!?
Henning has 3 res even in HM.
Just make sure to keep her out of his 1-2 attack range not to make him switch to the hand axe.
And if her hitrate is bad, then take your time to build the A-support.


Seriously even chapter 8's boss is tougher without Rutger because of having higher resistance and weapon advantage against swords.

I don't know about opening the floodgates of the ""2 range glass cannon + 1 cavalier to rescue + 2nd cavalier to use swap and drop on same turn" 

That does definately deal with Henning, but it also promotes the continued use of cheese throughout the entire series. There are lots of bosses with both a default 1 range weapon and a 1-2 range secondary in FE5-9  at the very least.  I kind of think that while it's okay to do that as an experienced player, doing it as a new player (or only new to FE6) would take some of the magic away from fire emblem. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Reality

[Harvey]

4 hours ago, Modamy said:

Well, I guess I'll mirror the answers of others and just say to range him out. I usually find it it to risky to get in his face even on normal mode and though Lilina might work it would just be faster to use early promoted Lugh.

Also @Harvey I really meant the original games like Fire Emblem 1 and even in the case of Binding Blade where bosses are much harder if you lack certain units I think just proves my point. They weren't trying to make the units balanced in a lot of cases they were only making replacements the player could use if they lost the original and those replacements weren't as good.

Ex.Ogier is not as good as Dieck, Noah and Treck are not as good as Lance and Allen, Fir is not as good as Rutger, Lilina not as good as Lugh, and Barth and Gwendolyn aren't as good as Bors (although all three of them are still pretty bad).

If the replacements weren't supposed to be good, then what about units like Karel, Athos and mycen whose bases are good for endgame in case you end up not getting stronger units?

Also, to those of you saying it's possible to beat Henning without Rutger, isn't the idea of fire emblem to use units whom you can rely on? Also, why the hell would you want to use someone else to kill Henning knowing that bosses have throne bonuses?

Saying that Henning can be beaten without Rutger doesn't justify fe6 balancing issues..just saying.

 

[Von Ithipathachai]

3 minutes ago, Harvey said:

If the replacements weren't supposed to be good, then what about units like Karel, Athos and mycen whose bases are good for endgame in case you end up not getting stronger units?

Also, to those of you saying it's possible to beat Henning without Rutger, isn't the idea of fire emblem to use units whom you can rely on? Also, why the hell would you want to use someone else to kill Henning knowing that bosses have throne bonuses?

Gotoh characters only exist to prevent the final chapter(s) from being completely unwinnable for weaker teams.

To answer your question about using someone else to kill Henning knowing he gets throne bonuses, ...you kind of have to if you reach his chapter and Rutger somehow died prior (most likely in the sort of ironman scenario that the game was intended to be played in in the first place).

[DisobeyedCargo]

All the fire emblems, that I  have played so far.  have been... good

 

not absolutely horrible, but not the greatest thing ever made, just good...

the only one I'd put in a top ten is echoes.

dont get me wrong I still enjoy the franchise, it just hasn't really wowed me or blown be away yet.

granted this may change when I play more games 

[Aut]

6 hours ago, Hecatia Lapislazuli said:

What about Lilina!?
Henning has 3 res even in HM.
Just make sure to keep her out of his 1-2 attack range not to make him switch to the hand axe.
And if her hitrate is bad, then take your time to build the A-support.


Seriously even chapter 8's boss is tougher without Rutger because of having higher resistance and weapon advantage against swords.

Lilina at base does 3 damage with thunder (Thrones give +5 res) at 29 hit with 0 crit, and does 2 damage with fire at 44 hit with -5 crit. Henning either heals 3 or 4 damage every turn (I’m not sure). A Roy (which takes 36 turns to get, an extremely long time) gives her +3 might, +15 hit, and + 10 crit. If Lilina is level 5 with A Roy she on average either does 9 damage at 47 hit with 16 crit or 8 damage at 62 hit with 11 crit. That sucks, on average it takes Lilina (not taking into account crits) about 26 turns to kill Henning with thunder if he heals 3, its 76 turns if heals 4, and with Fire it takes about 17 turns, 29 if he heals 4. Lilina is not a viable way to defeat Henning if you want to beat him in a not completely garbage amount of time.

[Slumber]

I rarely ever use Rutger, and Henning is only ever a moderate annoyance at most. 

He's tougher than most bosses are at that stage of the game, but he's far from the toughest guy around. 

Really not getting where this "But you have to use Rutger!" thing is coming from. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Slumber

[SoulWeaver]

I'm still trying to figure out why everyone keeps going on about Chapter 21, it wasn't an issue for me. After hearing so much about the conditions for 21x being ridiculously frustrating, I spent all kinds of time preparing my set of Units right from the start with Chapter 21 in mind, and went in with the turn limit marked out, and the map went just fine, I only had to restart once due to a misclick leaving someone within range of one too many foes.

[Shrimpica]

Afaik this used to be a popular opinions back then, but not so popular anymore...

Jagens are useless. The first chance i get to replace em, i do. Even the good ones like Titania will be weak compared to other trained units by chapter 10 or so. Even if they have good growths, their low exp gain due to their High level and their supbar stats makes them really only good for tanking stuff for the first 3 or so chapters.

[ping]

5 hours ago, Reality said:

That does definately deal with Henning, but it also promotes the continued use of cheese throughout the entire series. There are lots of bosses with both a default 1 range weapon and a 1-2 range secondary in FE5-9  at the very least.  I kind of think that while it's okay to do that as an experienced player, doing it as a new player (or only new to FE6) would take some of the magic away from fire emblem. 

Tbh, I'd rather be cheesy than deal with that max Str Killer Axe boss in chapter 5 legitimately. ;)

Fire Emblem just isn't good (or at least hasn't been good) at making stationary bosses threatening instead of annoying, so in an all-seize game like FE6, it's always the map and never the boss that's threatening. I suppose Fates addresses the issue at least a bit with its enemy-only 1-2 range weapons, but as long as you know that a boss is stationary, you're usually able to just overwhelm him or keep the boss killer healed from a safe distance to negate risk of death.

1 hour ago, Aut said:

Lilina at base does 3 damage with thunder (Thrones give +5 res) at 29 hit with 0 crit, and does 2 damage with fire at 44 hit with -5 crit. Henning either heals 3 or 4 damage every turn (I’m not sure). A Roy (which takes 36 turns to get, an extremely long time) gives her +3 might, +15 hit, and + 10 crit. If Lilina is level 5 with A Roy she on average either does 9 damage at 47 hit with 16 crit or 8 damage at 62 hit with 11 crit. That sucks, on average it takes Lilina (not taking into account crits) about 26 turns to kill Henning with thunder if he heals 3, its 76 turns if heals 4, and with Fire it takes about 17 turns, 29 if he heals 4. Lilina is not a viable way to defeat Henning if you want to beat him in a not completely garbage amount of time.

You shouldn't 1v1 him, anyway. 8x has 10 deployment slots, so it's possible to have up to 3 characters attack Henning each turn and rescue/drop them afterwards. Your sword users can try to get some chip damage via Light Brand (accuracy is probably below 50, but the 10 damage is pretty good in this scenario), so you'll have enough options for 1-2 range, as well.

Still tedious, I won't deny that, but Henning can be whittled down in an OK-ish timeframe without SM!Rutger.

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

Saying that Henning can be beaten without Rutger doesn't justify fe6 balancing issues..just saying.

Please keep the goalposts where they are:

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

If you lose Rutger, you'll never beat Henning and it makes the game unwinnable(Its doable in NM but again, if he's solid, why not use him instead of a Cavalier?) unless I'm not mistaken. Getting replacements in New Mystery is almost never going to happen except for the Sable Knights I think?

By the way, New Mystery and Shadow Dragon are the games with the most "replacement" units in the series, the latter to the point where you get generic blue units if your characters keep dying. NM in particular (since I'm more familar with it and I know that you've played it) has Matthis, Cain, Belf, Leiden, Abel, Roshea, Vyland, and Midia as characters in Cav/Pala default class, none of which have more potential than your initial cav trio (and other than Cain, I'd say they're all simply worse even disregarding join time).

You get Wolf and Sedgar whose base stats are terrible for their join time - Sedgar gets doubled in their joining chapter, even though Horseman isn't a particular slow class. And personally, I never saw much use in Beck and Robert, either, so I'd file all four of them as replacement units for your initial (potential) hunters.

Generally speaking, if you keep your initial team alive, you can skip almost every unit that joins after chapter 10, and nothing of value would be lost. Honestly, the only recruitables that I would want to keep are Xane (who isn't even crucial - I just like the Chameleon class) and the four princesses in the final chapter for their Rescue utility. I really wonder why you would think that NMotE of all games would compare favourably to FE6. I'd rather say that if there was only one FE game with a cast more... diverse in terms of viability and usefulness than Binding Blade, it would be New Mystery.

[Armagon]

4 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

I'm still trying to figure out why everyone keeps going on about Chapter 21, it wasn't an issue for me. After hearing so much about the conditions for 21x being ridiculously frustrating, I spent all kinds of time preparing my set of Units right from the start with Chapter 21 in mind, and went in with the turn limit marked out, and the map went just fine, I only had to restart once due to a misclick leaving someone within range of one too many foes.

Probably because the reinforcements spawn when you reach certain points as opposed to them being turn dependent. And they don't stop coming. The trick to avoid the first wave to to ferry everyone across the mountain range and drop them near the village. But past that, there's the never-ending onslaught of reinforcements, not to mention, Murdock is considered one of the toughest bosses in the series.

[eclipse]

17 hours ago, ping said:

Whittling him down from 2 range works, too. Just rescue/drop your units out of his range to prevent him from switching to his Hand Axe. Tedious, since hit rates tend to be around 50-60 displayed hit, but possible, even with zero risk of a blue unit dying. No unit in FE6 is irreplacable, except maybe Marcus in chapter 1.

That's a bit exaggerated, though. ;) Marcus deals like 10 damage and gets doubled in return if Henning switches to his hand axe. Early promoted Rutger is the best option by far, but of course I agree that the chapter (and the game) are still beatable without him.

I think I mixed up my bosses, BUT. . .

17 hours ago, Harvey said:

Ok..what about hard mode?

 

. . .it's irrelevant, because everything I said holds.  That guy named Dieck can wield Killing Edges off the bat, to boot.

Oh, and if he's on a melee weapon, there's always that really blasty mage that was recruited in the previous chapter. . .whose one-turn C support gives +1 damage. . .

[Harvey]

6 hours ago, ping said:

Tbh, I'd rather be cheesy than deal with that max Str Killer Axe boss in chapter 5 legitimately. ;)

Fire Emblem just isn't good (or at least hasn't been good) at making stationary bosses threatening instead of annoying, so in an all-seize game like FE6, it's always the map and never the boss that's threatening. I suppose Fates addresses the issue at least a bit with its enemy-only 1-2 range weapons, but as long as you know that a boss is stationary, you're usually able to just overwhelm him or keep the boss killer healed from a safe distance to negate risk of death.

You shouldn't 1v1 him, anyway. 8x has 10 deployment slots, so it's possible to have up to 3 characters attack Henning each turn and rescue/drop them afterwards. Your sword users can try to get some chip damage via Light Brand (accuracy is probably below 50, but the 10 damage is pretty good in this scenario), so you'll have enough options for 1-2 range, as well.

Still tedious, I won't deny that, but Henning can be whittled down in an OK-ish timeframe without SM!Rutger.

Please keep the goalposts where they are:

By the way, New Mystery and Shadow Dragon are the games with the most "replacement" units in the series, the latter to the point where you get generic blue units if your characters keep dying. NM in particular (since I'm more familar with it and I know that you've played it) has Matthis, Cain, Belf, Leiden, Abel, Roshea, Vyland, and Midia as characters in Cav/Pala default class, none of which have more potential than your initial cav trio (and other than Cain, I'd say they're all simply worse even disregarding join time).

You get Wolf and Sedgar whose base stats are terrible for their join time - Sedgar gets doubled in their joining chapter, even though Horseman isn't a particular slow class. And personally, I never saw much use in Beck and Robert, either, so I'd file all four of them as replacement units for your initial (potential) hunters.

Generally speaking, if you keep your initial team alive, you can skip almost every unit that joins after chapter 10, and nothing of value would be lost. Honestly, the only recruitables that I would want to keep are Xane (who isn't even crucial - I just like the Chameleon class) and the four princesses in the final chapter for their Rescue utility. I really wonder why you would think that NMotE of all games would compare favourably to FE6. I'd rather say that if there was only one FE game with a cast more... diverse in terms of viability and usefulness than Binding Blade, it would be New Mystery.

Because when I played new mystery, you said that any unit past chapter 10 is not a good unit I think.

Ok so I exaggerated a bit when I said that it's unwinnable without Rutger. Still, using him is so much easier due to his reliability.

 

[Flee Fleet!]

More unpopular opinions:

- I didn't think Henning was that difficult as everyone seems to be saying. I don't really remember how I beat him but I think I used Lilina and Rutger and Wendy cuz reasons. Then again I only played NM so I dunno how hard he is in HM.

 

 

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

10 hours ago, Aut said:

Lilina at base does 3 damage with thunder (Thrones give +5 res) at 29 hit with 0 crit, and does 2 damage with fire at 44 hit with -5 crit. Henning either heals 3 or 4 damage every turn (I’m not sure). A Roy (which takes 36 turns to get, an extremely long time) gives her +3 might, +15 hit, and + 10 crit. If Lilina is level 5 with A Roy she on average either does 9 damage at 47 hit with 16 crit or 8 damage at 62 hit with 11 crit. That sucks, on average it takes Lilina (not taking into account crits) about 26 turns to kill Henning with thunder if he heals 3, its 76 turns if heals 4, and with Fire it takes about 17 turns, 29 if he heals 4. Lilina is not a viable way to defeat Henning if you want to beat him in a not completely garbage amount of time.

I didn't even know that FE6 had thrones which give a res boost.
RIP my plan then.

Still mages are the best bet to take him out besides swords, and 8x is made to give Lilina some levels.
If you grind her support with Roy, her damage output, hit- and critrate will be buffed.



Also considering Henning as hard or impossible is an odd opinion since it's not true.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Hecatia Lapislazuli