Fate/Grand Order General

[Water Mage]

How good is BB? She has an interesting skill set and a unique class. Is she worth investing in? 

And how cruel of them to introduce an Avenger slayer only after Shinjuku. I certainly could have used her in those hellish Lobo boss battles.

[MrSmokestack]

1 hour ago, Water Mage said:

How good is BB? She has an interesting skill set and a unique class. Is she worth investing in?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/180151-fate-grand-order/77673953

By yours truly.

Since there seems to be some conflicting information from numerous source as to BB’s role, I’ll clarify here:

BB is not a support. She’s not even a semi-support. Her role starts with a D, has a P in the middle, and ends in S.

@Magus of Memery There is a big difference between saying “X is worse compared to Y and Z options” and saying “X is not Y, therefore bad”.

I don’t evaluate servants in a vacuum. Only by measuring them against existing options can you get an accurate understanding of how good they are.

In most cases, there is no situation that you can deal with using Reines that wasn’t already handled by running other supports. They might not do everything Reines does, but they don’t have to.

Consider a utility like debuff clear. There are situations where this is useful, but when it doesn’t apply that’s one less advantage she has over another support option when choosing who to field in a quest.

I also find removing class advantage weakness overrated. Taking less damage is better than not taking more damage, if that makes any sense. A Berserker with a net 100% defense boost already takes no damage from enemies barring passives like Divinity. At 50% they have the same defensive advantage as a neutral servant with 0% net defense.

Reines is niche. She works with an extremely small subset of servants that in general have not been useful in recent content. Does she work? Yes. Is she good in general? No.

More importantly, she does not enable any servant that wasn’t already usable with the other supports we have. At best she’s an alternative if you don’t want to run them. I agree she’s not as bad as Miyu or Osakabehime, but she isn’t winning any awards of her own either.

Edited April 30, 2019 by MrSmokestack

[Shiki]

2 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Only by measuring them against existing options can you get an accurate understanding of how good they are.

Without properly assessing the Servant first (including team compositions) any comparison before is completely moot. Other than that, yes.

2 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

I also find removing class advantage weakness overrated. Taking less damage is better than not taking more damage, if that makes any sense. A Berserker with a net 100% defense boost already takes no damage from enemies barring passives like Divinity. At 50% they have the same defensive advantage as a neutral servant with 0% net defense.

2 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

More importantly, she does not enable any servant that wasn’t already usable with the other supports we have.

Considering nowadays the majority of Berserkers are outclassed by many other options these are pretty bold statements to make. As far as I see it none of the current options can fix their inherent durability issue which stems from their class, otherwise they would be a more common sight for CQs.
Reines is the only one who does something about this. Her use is ultimately limited to this single class but being narrow certainly doesn't make her by any means "trash".

2 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Does she work? Yes. Is she good in general? No.

Does she need to be good in general? No. We already have the Card Casters and Zhuge Liang for that. Comparing someone who caters towards a niche to those 4 doesn't give you any information if the Servant in question is good. Gao is pretty much the only exception we have so far and that guy is busted. If anything her being a real alternative to Zhuge Liang within her niche should tell you that she can be certainly a strong pick and that should enough to be considered good.

Well, this is already going nowhere. New record, yay. I think you and I have very different views about what constitutes as "good". Might as well leave it at that.
Though just out of curiosity; if you would place her in your list what tier would she be?

---------

So the Type X are the Rapunzels of this event.
God damn it, DW, why? Wasn't once enough?

Edited April 30, 2019 by Magus of Memery

[MrSmokestack]

45 minutes ago, Magus of Memery said:

Considering nowadays the majority of Berserkers are outclassed by many other options these are pretty bold statements to make. As far as I see it none of the current options can fix their inherent durability issue which stems from their class, otherwise they would be a more common sight for CQs.

I say removing class weakness by itself isn’t that good because neutral and even resisted attacks still hit very hard nowadays. Soft damage mitigation alone is no longer reliable at tanking enemy hits at neutral, let alone for a Berserker. A good defense will combine multiple strategies—this includes servants with taunt CEs, healing, defense buffs, and Evades / Invulns.

It’s true that Reines has plenty else to offer defensively besides negating Berserker weakness. However, she gimps the team’s offense to do this; she’ll suck up stars, and her offensive boosts aren’t as good as other supports. Berserkers that rely more on NP turnover than critting, like Penth and Jeanne Alter Berserker, can work well with Reines since they were never critting in the first place.

Quote

Does she need to be good in general? No. We already have the Card Casters and Zhuge Liang for that. Comparing someone who caters towards a niche to those 4 doesn't give you any information if the Servant in question is good.

I agree that not every servant that gets released needs to be on the same level as the meta supports, Gil, Dantes, and so on. Ultimately I and most people will use who we want regardless of how good they are. Barring personal preference however, Reines isn’t worth rolling for.

Every servant in this game is usable. The bar for “usable” is very low to reach. Not every servant that is usable is “good”, if that explains my point better.

Quote

I think you and I have very different views about what constitutes as "good". Might as well leave it at that.
Though just out of curiosity; if you would place her in your list what tier would she be?

After this discussion, I’m not going to jump to conclusions. Ultimately I’ll have to see how she fares in CQs before I decide how good (or not) she is. Not that the two are on the same level, but people had doubts about Skadi too. Look how she turned out.

Quote

So the Type X are the Rapunzels of this event.
God damn it, DW, why? Wasn't once enough?

Stamp Thenar (Quetz node) guarantees at least one spawn. They can also show up in any (?) node that Eaters appear in, albeit rarely.

I have an MLB CE on my support if you need one.

Edited April 30, 2019 by MrSmokestack

[redlight]

12 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

BB is not a support. She’s not even a semi-support. Her role starts with a D, has a P in the middle, and ends in S.

Guess I'll eat my words from what I said before. SM is such a stupid skill. Pair that with arts cards. So silly. Even star gen is quite good. From what I read she needs buster cards as a starter for better damage. Tho to be fair, her kit is a mix of everything, but it's one skill that's overshadowing the other two

[Sire]

Slowly making my way through the event. Even though I'm just starting Part III (following the Gamepress Guide), I am loving the event thus far. I also see why everyone loves BB and I'm definitely in the BB > Mashu camp. Speaking of Mashu, I almost forgot she existed. Meanwhile, Da Vinci at the start of the event "reminded me" about our missing Director, giving me feels that I didn't need.

Man, this event makes me want to get into the CCC/Extra games at some point. Another list of games for the pile, I suppose...

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

16 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/180151-fate-grand-order/77673953

By yours truly.

Since there seems to be some conflicting information from numerous source as to BB’s role, I’ll clarify here:

BB is not a support. She’s not even a semi-support. Her role starts with a D, has a P in the middle, and ends in S.

@Magus of Memery There is a big difference between saying “X is worse compared to Y and Z options” and saying “X is not Y, therefore bad”.

I don’t evaluate servants in a vacuum. Only by measuring them against existing options can you get an accurate understanding of how good they are.

In most cases, there is no situation that you can deal with using Reines that wasn’t already handled by running other supports. They might not do everything Reines does, but they don’t have to.

Consider a utility like debuff clear. There are situations where this is useful, but when it doesn’t apply that’s one less advantage she has over another support option when choosing who to field in a quest.

I also find removing class advantage weakness overrated. Taking less damage is better than not taking more damage, if that makes any sense. A Berserker with a net 100% defense boost already takes no damage from enemies barring passives like Divinity. At 50% they have the same defensive advantage as a neutral servant with 0% net defense.

Reines is niche. She works with an extremely small subset of servants that in general have not been useful in recent content. Does she work? Yes. Is she good in general? No.

More importantly, she does not enable any servant that wasn’t already usable with the other supports we have. At best she’s an alternative if you don’t want to run them. I agree she’s not as bad as Miyu or Osakabehime, but she isn’t winning any awards of her own either.

D is d***

P is P****

Whats S?

[Sire]

Quick question, when did JP get their bond expansions again? I want to say it was after EoR, sometime during the "2nd season."

I dusted off my first 4* and trusty companion, Tamamo Cat, for this event. I've been hesitant to use her since her bond is capped, but upon fielding her again I realized how much I missed using Tamacat. She kills stuff pretty reliably! (In the meantime, I've been using Kiyohime for my Daily AoE clears.)
- - - - - - - - - -
On a related note, I wonder "Georgios + Siegfried + Merlin/Tamamo" would be like... Saint George tanks the hits and transforms enemies into Dragons, Siegfried slays Dragons, while Tamamo/Merlin provide heals and support. I have my 90 Georgios, but I haven't used him in a long time since "DPS, DPS, DPS" is still the way of things. Break bars make sustain a little more important, but generally it just seems better to have another DPS or Support instead of a Tank + DPS + Support setup.

EDIT: Ruler Georgios when?

Edited May 1, 2019 by Sire

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

42 minutes ago, Sire said:

Quick question, when did JP get their bond expansions again? I want to say it was after EoR, sometime during the "2nd season."

I dusted off my first 4* and trusty companion, Tamamo Cat, for this event. I've been hesitant to use her since her bond is capped, but upon fielding her again I realized how much I missed using Tamacat. She kills stuff pretty reliably! (In the meantime, I've been using Kiyohime for my Daily AoE clears.)
- - - - - - - - - -
On a related note, I wonder "Georgios + Siegfried + Merlin/Tamamo" would be like... Saint George tanks the hits and transforms enemies into Dragons, Siegfried slays Dragons, while Tamamo/Merlin provide heals and support. I have my 90 Georgios, but I haven't used him in a long time since "DPS, DPS, DPS" is still the way of things. Break bars make sustain a little more important, but generally it just seems better to have another DPS or Support instead of a Tank + DPS + Support setup.

EDIT: Ruler Georgios when?

The problem with that team is the np generation is too slow, further dropped by STG weight and the lack of 2nd support makes the damage much lower than expected. Combine this with how STG could have a hard time surviving class neutral and it results in a weird comp that probably need 2030's to work. Siegfried is actually a possible super top tier unit if the situation where he shines comes out and he can loop NPAA, but STG didn't help much to achieve it.

 

Like this may sounds preposterous. but when you think about it, Siegfried is very comparable to Gilgamesh

 

That said Burst is actually still very strong with Break bar, you just need to know HOW to burst properly - it hinges on how Burst damage allows you to set up NP AA or NP BA combo in order to get strong np refill off your burst enabling overgauge. In fact this is THE meta of FGO for the next few.... years. The whole break bar ruins burst meme is often said but is actually wrong - units who DO get hurt have either shitty recursion on their burst, or isn't actually as strong as you'd like to think - Kintoki's damage output for example is actually kinda mediocre

 

This ironically means BAAAQ deck is actually fine @MrSmokestack

Saint George is still a very strong unit if you see how much Honako Green uses him, i believe many JP players used him a lot during Gilfest. he's not "optimal" but easilly one of the strongest options outside that optimal bubble

I believe Bond Expansion is somewhere around LB3 or Quetzal Christmas

Edited May 1, 2019 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Shiki]

48 minutes ago, Sire said:

Quick question, when did JP get their bond expansions again? I want to say it was after EoR, sometime during the "2nd season."

You mean the Bond 15 thing? That came with the 3rd Lostbelt (SIN) so you will have to wait till the end of next year.

[Sire]

Ouch, Bond 15 is during Lostbelt 3, which isn't for another year? Hopefully NA gets it earlier like with other QoL updates so I can use my favorites more! (Also, 5* Embers in the FP pool so I can start burning through all of my FP...)

* * * * *

@JSND Alter Dragon Boner Thanks for the breakdown! Yeah, I figured NP gen would be rather slow and damage output generally lacking outside of strong bursts on rare occassions (Siegfried) since Georgios' offensive potential is extremely lackluster.

When thinking about the team, I was leaning more towards in the "stall" direction instead of huge DPS, but then again I guess I aimed for the middle ground. I was thinking tossed Iron-Willed Training (MLB, +20% DEF) on Georgios to stack DEF on him (He gets 40% from his skill for 3 turns, and at least 20% when he uses his NP for a turn.) Siegfried will obviously want a Damage CE, but I may just toss Prisma Cosmos on him to reliably charge his NP Gauge. Tamamo is there to use her NP for the cooldown reductions and heals. Merlin can be used because Merlin since he provides a bit of everything: Healing, Attack Buffs, Invincibility Buff, Crit Stars, and Hero Creation on Siegfried.

Granted, most of the crit stars will be eaten by Saint George which is not ideal, but maybe he'll be able to keep his extra defenses up from his NP effect this way. Putting a Crit Star Gather Rate CE on Sieg may help alleviate this somewhat, but I may just want to stick to Prisma Cosmos instead.
- - - - - - - - - -
Anyways, my current "go-to" team for bosses is running Saberlot/Kuro + Tamamo + Waver. Tamamo has some sustain with and has the arts buff, Waver is Waver, while Saberlot or Kuro deal damage. // I could go Buster Crit with Nobu/LancerAlter + Waver + Support Merlin, but at the moment I prefer fielding supports that help with event grinding instead of using them in battle.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Sire

[redlight]

Wow. Merlin really helped me out in that Kiara fight. My team was Bedi, Hans and Merlin. Surprisingly enough Bedi's defense skill really came in handy when Merlin couldn't use Invinc as his skills are rather budget like bcs the important effect is static across the board.

My thoughts on the story

Spoiler

BB caught me by the nose. It went a bit differently than what I had expected it to be like. Poor poor Extra trio. I was surprised by some of the themes in the story. I wasn't expecting it to be like some kind of survival horror mixed with sci-fi and dating sim elements.

I found the characters to be rather great this time around. The weaker ones even somehow managed to leave an impact. I liked Demiya. Had more characterization this time around and he's very tenacious. Same for Tristan, but he's more faithful to what he's supposed to be like. Sakura clones we're fantastic. Melt was lovely, Lip adorable and BB obnoxiously cute. The villain felt last minute, but she was foreshadowed so it's not that bad. Really a missed opportunity for some of the EXTRA characters not to make a appearance. And Gawain, oof. You poor guy. Shame you've been done dirty gameplay wise. And that Seraph staff worker, I think she was dead the entire time and started to reveal herself when you defeated BB and after Demiya tried to kill her. 

I found it to better than Shinjuku

EDIT: whoops

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by redlight

[Silverly]

2 hours ago, redlight said:

I found it better than Shibuya

What in the hell is Shibuya?

Edited May 1, 2019 by Silverly

[YotsuMaboroshi]

43 minutes ago, Silverly said:

What in the hell is Shibuya?

@redlight probably got confused on the name of the chapter, and was likely referring to Shinjuku, the first chapter of the Epic of Remanent part of FGO (SE.RA.PH is the second chapter).  The two wards are similarly named, located right next to each other, and I think the story during Shinjuku mentioned Shibuya a few times.

Even if you didn't recognize the name, asking about it like that is unnecessarily hostile.

[Silverly]

1 hour ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

@redlight probably got confused on the name of the chapter, and was likely referring to Shinjuku, the first chapter of the Epic of Remanent part of FGO (SE.RA.PH is the second chapter).  The two wards are similarly named, located right next to each other, and I think the story during Shinjuku mentioned Shibuya a few times.

Even if you didn't recognize the name, asking about it like that is unnecessarily hostile.

I perfectly knew well what he was referring to (Shinjuku is actually my favorite singularity) and it wasn’t intended to be hostile at all. Quite the the contrary it was intended to be a jocular nudge, though with little context I can admit it could be seen negatively so my bad on that.

As for Seraph... it’s fine. Right in the middle for me. I didn’t care for Melt and BB (the latter I honestly found irritating), but Lip was cute enough and it redeemed Gawain for me. I finished the story and got my grail, so now it’s just more missions to get BB copies/ascension mats and grinding for chips.

[DehNutCase]

Ha, EMIYA's fight was great.

Front side was EMIYA, back side? Also EMIYA. lul.

[Jingle Jangle]

In my attempt to get Kiara with 120sq I got various event ce and got:

Quote

I don't think my luck will ever be that good again.

[redlight]

@Jingle Jangle And now you wait 2 years for both of her strengthenings. Still, she's pretty good. But damn. You got really lucky

[Water Mage]

The new sentinels battles(Emiya, Tamano and Nero) were easier than I thought. I just need to clean up shop and I be done with the event.

I think I’m going to start saving for Summer Nero. I really need an offensive caster, and from I what I’ve heard she’s amazing.

[Alexmender]

Aaaand I'm done with the missions! The last battles were pretty easy (Tamamo's class change caught me off guard so that one dragged on for a bit because I had no Saber on the party), BB/GO had the same fate as normal BB and got a pretty painful MUDAMUDAMUDA hit in the face.

I also grailed BB to 90 and ran out of QP again, but that's neither here nor there so the only things left is to buy the last few things from the shop, do that quest that unlocks when you finish the missions and see if I can beat 0kp and 15kp Kiara. 

Talking about BB, she's pretty good as a DPS/Cleric hybrid. Without buffs she hits like a wet noodle but she can NP spam to kinda make up for it and her heal/debuff removal is absolutely wonderful! I'm not too keen on using her 3rd skill if the party isn't made around her but it can come in handy if she gets a AQA chain or if she's the last one standing. I can see a Tamamo/BB/Mash comp being pretty great as an arts stall team.

[redlight]

5 hours ago, Water Mage said:

The new sentinels battles(Emiya, Tamano and Nero) were easier than I thought. I just need to clean up shop and I be done with the event.

I think I’m going to start saving for Summer Nero. I really need an offensive caster, and from I what I’ve heard she’s amazing.

I'd honestly recommend saving for Sheba, who comes at the end of the year as she's an SR so you have a better chance of getting her. I'm very skeptical of pulling SSRs as a f2p player if you plan to summon more than a few servants in one year. There's also Circe who comes up around the same time, but she's more of a stall Caster from what I heard, but you could do Heaven's Fell or Black Grail shenaniganz with her massive battery. There's also EliMech as she has advantage against all cavalry classes, including Assassins. She happens to be free.
EDIT: There's also Sieg and CasShu coming next year but that's far too late if you're in need of one in the near future so read further at your own discretion. Sieg is pretty meh. No, two of his skills are incredibly bad/old at that point in the game so that's kinda saying something. At least he has NP looping from what I heard as well good for farming. CasShu is odd is what people have described her as. QAAAB with a buster NP, which is awkward. Kinda like Sheba in being a burst DPS Caster as well as having a Charisma, but Shuten's is a bit better. Her's gives slightly more attack as well as bonus damage against demonic enemies for herself. That last thing should come handy in some events. There''s also the NP seal. Definitely a unique servant for sure.

I didn't think I needed to use only one command code in BB/GO's fight at the last stretch. Used 2 :(

Nero was annoying to deal with. She hit really hard for some reason in both versions.

Tamamo dragged on longer than it should have. She's surprisingly durable as a enemy if you don't have riders. Should've brought Ushi, but it ended in a few minutes after she class changed.

Yeah, this event showed me how good Cu is. I knew he was good, but goddamn is he a champ. Was on my last legs several times. Planning on giving him a few grails. Also, that strengthening coming soon smileyface. More damage and Accuracy on his NP. And I guess death chance +10%, but that's really for the mobs. I wish ProCu got that NP strengthening as well as CasCu's battery (both have the same skill, just that CasCu's was given a battery as part of his strengthening).

Edited May 2, 2019 by redlight

[Magical Glace]

realized I had enough to 10/10/10 Gray on JP, so she's there now.  The wait for her to be made permanent and NP5 is quite a thing.

Also, I gotta say I'm overall fairly impressed by the Case Files Event, gameplaywise.  I'd say this might even surpass Zero Accel as the best designed mission event for me.  Seeing new missions unlock and already be cleared is pretty satisfying, there being multiple servants in free quests really helps.  

Though on the other hand, that duplicating Benkei quest is... a thing.  Taunts, skill seals, np seals, stuns, curses, plus Chaos Tide and earthquake.  Babylonia spoilers I suppose we should be glad that Ushi was the one taken in Babylonia proper.

[redlight]

16 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Though on the other hand, that duplicating Benkei quest is... a thing.  Taunts, skill seals, np seals, stuns, curses, plus Chaos Tide and earthquake.  Babylonia spoilers I suppose we should be glad that Ushi was the one taken in Babylonia proper.

He already displayed his annoyingness in Guda 2. Or was it the first one?

[Magical Glace]

2 minutes ago, redlight said:

He already displayed his annoyingness in Guda 2. Or was it the first one?

Spoiler

At least then he's a Lancer instead of having no class advantage or disadvantage, and the taunts pulling your attention away from the "main" Benkei.  The fight works like corrupt Ushi fights in Babylonia so killing a duplicate before the main one just causes respawn.

 

[redlight]

1 minute ago, Glaceon Mage said:

  Hide contents

At least then he's a Lancer instead of having no class advantage or disadvantage, and the taunts pulling your attention away from the "main" Benkei.  The fight works like corrupt Ushi fights in Babylonia so killing a duplicate before the main one just causes respawn.

 

Damn. That sounds tough. If only they could make him as good as he is a boss