What it looks like to absolutely hate FE14

[Gruntagen]

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3809650&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=96#post473924827

 

I mean, I think I can safely say I have as much disrespect for FE13 and FE14 as this guy clearly does, but seeing it all verbalized like this just makes me feel really ill...

 

I really need to figure out why people like FE14's characters and maps so much before I become this guy.  

Edited July 2, 2017 by Gruntagen

[Dandy Druid]

1 hour ago, Gruntagen said:

I really need to figure out why people like FE14's characters and maps so much before I become this guy.  

I'm not sure if your topic is necessarily appropriate to this forum, but for the part I quoted, I'll touch on that. Fates isn't my favorite FE by a long shot, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily void of good characters. There's some gems of characters in the game, i.e. Shiro, but it's kind of sad that the "good" characters are in the minority. I actually found the knockoff characters (Asugi and Rhajat) to be more of an improved version of the originals for the most part.

I think the main problem that a lot of the characters faced is that they were almost good, IMO. They had a lot of potential, but they didn't become fully realized by the end of your average run. Perhaps if their support logs were a little more limited (like 10 at the most, which is only 3 more than the GBA games) than maybe the conversations could've been more focused. At least the highlight of each character is that they're usable in battle, so at least they have their niches to fall back on.

As for maps, some of them were interesting. I'm not too certain what the general consensus considers a "good map" and a "bad map" though. However, I hated the worldmap. It just left me confused on where the boundaries were and it looked like they tried to go for a more realistic approach but it just comes off looking ugly. I'm glad SoV's map looks like an old fashioned drawn map. It has more charm and works for FE.

[saisymbolic]

Contrary to popular belief, no FE game has a perfect story and can be picked a part in the same way as Fates can. In the same manner, no cast of characters is perfect in a FE game.

That said, Fates' story is one where a good premise was executed badly. Combined with the hype and expectations placed upon it, it got quite the backlash when people realized it wasn't the cream of the crop it was supposed to be. Pretty much "a thin line between love and hate" scenario, honestly.

I personally found several of the characters in the game charming and written relatively well. Some of my favorite characters in the entire series is from this game, as a matter of fact.

It's fine to have an opinion about something - yours isn't one that's uncommon - but you can hate something and still be respectful about it.

(I also feel like this topic may be closed by mods, too. I could be wrong, though.)

[Slumber]

5 minutes ago, saisymbolic said:

Contrary to popular belief, no FE game has a perfect story and can be picked a part in the same way as Fates can. In the same manner, no cast of characters is perfect in a FE game.

I won't argue the second part(I think compared to the game it followed, which seems to have a cast people LOVE, it has the stronger cast), but I really don't think any other story in the franchise can be picked apart like Fates'.

The badness of Fates' story is so unique, even in the context of the franchise. Some games have boring stories(The Archanea games) or stories that go nowhere for dozens of hours(Sacred Stones), but nothing is flat out... baffling like Fates' story is.

That said, I hate how the person in the link is presenting their gripes.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Slumber

[Gruntagen]

1 hour ago, saisymbolic said:

(I also feel like this topic may be closed by mods, too. I could be wrong, though.)

I'm hoping they just redirect this to FTFF. I wasn't sure where to put this, and I only realized that board existed after I had already posted this here.

Welp, time to try and ignite discussion in an fragmented, disconnected manner.

1 hour ago, saisymbolic said:

Contrary to popular belief, no FE game has a perfect story and can be picked a part in the same way as Fates can. In the same manner, no cast of characters is perfect in a FE game.

That's understandable. I've seen people criticize FE stories plenty of times, with reasoning varying from General Banzai's "I'm an English Major and I've never even heard of video game plots being written AROUND video game levels and setpieces, FE7 is a piece of crap compared to FE8 onehundredandelevenexclamationmarks!", to various Somethingawful users' "Eirika is stupidly naive and Veld is a terrible villain that the story actively shoehorns a retcon into to make even remotely deserving of final boss status", to Integrity's "Manfroy is overpowered in the narrative and Levin is a self-insert". And yet, I've still never seen the reasoning people have for saying "Fire Emblem stories *have never been good*". I've seen people say "Story doesn't matter because it's a video game", but I've never been able to get on board with that logic for some reason, even though I know it's not the priority in every single video game that ever exists.

 

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

I hate how the person in the link is presenting their gripes.

You should see his earlier posts. He was making awful scenario after scenario to try and rewrite Conquest, with one standout being "Make Kiragi and/or Yukimura the final boss". Another was "enemies being disposable is cheating".

 

1 hour ago, Dandy Druid said:

I actually found the knockoff characters (Asugi and Rhajat) to be more of an improved version of the originals for the most part.

I really can't agree with this. I can understand people just comparing 13 Severa to 14 Severa and going "they seem like they've been given a bit of character development and/or have specifics in their routines that I like", but that still can't distract me from the fact that IT'S STILL SEVERA AGAIN. Sure, if you liked them before, you'll still like them now, but the opposite is just as true, and I feel like people who didn't like them but are fine with their presence are just consigning themselves to their presence against their will. It's like Stockholm Syndrome in a way.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Gruntagen

[Slumber]

26 minutes ago, Gruntagen said:

I really can't agree with this. I can understand people just comparing 13 Severa to 14 Severa and going "they seem like they've been given a bit of character development and/or have specifics in their routines that I like", but that still can't distract me from the fact that IT'S STILL SEVERA AGAIN. Sure, if you liked them before, you'll still like them now, but the opposite is just as true, and I feel like people who didn't like them but are fine with their presence are just consigning themselves to their presence against their will. It's like Stockholm Syndrome in a way.

Serena I agree with, since Several was already an alright character, but Gaius and Tharja were so godawful that Asugi and Rhajat being tolerable is, in fact, a major improvement. 

[SoulWeaver]

Welp, my comp's being retarded and won't let me load the link, but I think I can guess the gist from your responses to it and so I'll do what I always do and jump out of the plane without a parachute with my plan being "Wing It" right up til I hit the ground.

To start, you really could have named this Topic something a little better - invoking Jesus' name tends to trigger some people, and in my experience entering a discussion Topic while triggered never ends well.

3 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

I really need to figure out why people like FE14's characters and maps so much before I become this guy.  

What I've mostly heard about why people liked Conquest's maps was just that it was something different from constant Objective: Go Kill EVERYONE(Except that one because we haven't captured a Shrine Maiden yet - Gotta Catch 'Em All!). I liked that Conquest let me try to do something besides raze the enemy army to the ground without necessarily barring me from doing so if I so chose - in Takumi's first level, for example, the game wants you to just defend specific point for so many turns, with the enemy spawning reinforcements throughout said level. However, if I want to go kick the jerk around a bit because it's been a bad day and I need to let off steam, the game says more power to me so long as nobody gets to those little green squares. There are exceptions, of course, like how it's specifically Birthright that has you run away from Garon and Xander on the performer's stage map, but in general those maps are only in Conquest. For myself, I liked Revelation's maps best because they were so interesting - like, a floating archipelago to navigate, for example, though that one might have been because Fliers were OP there and I have a bias towards Fliers as my FE Waifus are Cordelia and the Whitewings(try not to argue with me about my choice, hey?). I also liked that Revelation's maps felt more Dragon Vein heavy, whether or not they actually were, because Dragon Veins were such a cool mechanic for me, and they might be another reason people like the maps - they can actually do stuff to the terrain thanks to DVs, whereas in other games you can break exactly three squares of cracked wall and nothing else is alterable in any way, shape, or form.

Characters…well, this honestly is 98% player preference across almost all video games in general. There are some exceptions, with characters that you just have to hate or love because nobody knows why, they just hate/love them anyways, but as a general rule people liking such-and-such character is completely up to each person individually, and they usually have reasons that you may or may not agree with - I like Est, for example, because she's still so gosh darn cheerful despite getting kidnapped almost a tenth as many times as Mokuba Kaiba, not to mention she's had to watch people die or kill them herself, which can really do things to your mentality. In this case, Bae 2.0Caeldori, Asugi, Rhajat, Lazlow, Odin, and Mini-Bae 2.0Selena were all at least decently liked by most players, and most people also like most if not all of the Royals and then have one or two other characters they like for their own little reasons. TheexceptionisOdinbecauseifyoudon'tlikeOdinthere'ssomethingwrongwithyou.

I had more, but I can't remember any of it right now because super late, so maybe I'll put up the rest if I remember it or not.

[Thinks Their Own Way]

Don't be an asshole about your opinion and enforce your dislike for game like people on this site do when it's uncalled for and you should be fine. Although opening up with:

4 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

I mean, I think have as much disrespect for FE13 and FE14 as this guy clearly does

can give off the impression that you are already there.

Maps:

The enemies are never pathetic (Chapter 30 of FE 7 still had un-promoted enemies), Dragon Veins allowing player controlled terrain (my favourite one is the one that solves movement issues in deserts and the map where you create duplicates of your team), no same turn reinforcements, Fog-of-War that is more friendly on the player phase and with the exception of the Rainbow Sage stages; they play differently, even when they are in the same location (Birthrights Opera House is different from the other routes, Conquests Port Dia is different from Revelations, all the story campaign ship chapters are different from one another). I like that with Revelations, they tried to be different with the platforms.

Characters:

This is completely subjective and most of them worked for me; I liked Niles sexual innuendos, Azama's snarky remarks, Peri's childish tone, Mitama's haiku's, Camilla's obsessiveness. If you read that and think ugh... nothing I can say can convince someone else other wise.

[Gruntagen]

49 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

To start, you really could have named this Topic something a little better - invoking Jesus' name tends to trigger some people, and in my experience entering a discussion Topic while triggered never ends well.

Dang it. I'm just overall trash at giving topic OPs, so I just resort to using the first thing that comes to my head. What should I change it to?

 

49 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

I liked that Conquest let me try to do something besides raze the enemy army to the ground without necessarily barring me from doing so if I so chose - in Takumi's first level, for example, the game wants you to just defend specific point for so many turns, with the enemy spawning reinforcements throughout said level. However, if I want to go kick the jerk around a bit because it's been a bad day and I need to let off steam, the game says more power to me so long as nobody gets to those little green squares.

I didn't get that feeling at all from playing that map on Hard. I just got the feeling that the map was being really unfair and I couldn't get any enjoyment from having to play the map and go through the same motions over and over again because somebody keeps on dying or gets an unlucky miss. I don't know why I have that feeling, but I just don't get as much enjoyment playing Conquest as I did playing FEs 3 to 11 emulated and with savestates.

 

49 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

(try not to argue with me about my choice, hey?)

I wouldn't, but I still have an irrational hatred towards everything to do with Cordelia for no reason I've ever been able to explain beyond an oversimplistic trio of statements along the lines of: "She ruins Catria", "She feels specifically engineered to make players lust over her", and "Pyrrha".

13 minutes ago, I'm a Spheal said:

no same turn reinforcements

Hey, I liked that I could just camp next to enemy forts in FE6 and 11 and murder enemies without having to deal with their fort bonuses.

13 minutes ago, I'm a Spheal said:

Fog-of-War that is more friendly on the player phase

What Fog of War?

Edited July 2, 2017 by Gruntagen

[Ertrick36]

I really don't like reading cringy stuff like that, but...

14 minutes ago, Gruntagen said:

You should see his earlier posts. He was making awful scenario after scenario to try and rewrite Conquest, with one standout being "Make Kiragi and/or Yukimura the final boss". Another was "enemies being disposable is cheating".

this crap almost sounds as bad as the people who say this game physically hurts them or whatever.  It's taken this game to get me to realize how irrationally hateful people can be about a mere piece of entertainment.

18 minutes ago, Gruntagen said:

I really can't agree with this. I can understand people just comparing 13 Severa to 14 Severa and going "they seem like they've been given a bit of character development and/or have specifics in their routines that I like", but that still can't distract me from the fact that IT'S STILL SEVERA AGAIN. Sure, if you liked them before, you'll still like them now, but the opposite is just as true, and I feel like people who didn't like them but are fine with their presence are just consigning themselves to their presence against their will. It's like Stockholm Syndrome in a way.

There are people who didn't like them and are actually okay with them being in this game???  Tell me, where are these mythical creatures?

Even as someone who at least somewhat liked their original iterations, I disliked that they included them.  I only really enjoyed Laslow's supports with other characters outside of the Awakening trio, and I guess the unique dialogue between Caeldori and Selena is cute (never cared too much for Cordelia, and Caeldori's a less interesting version of her, but at least Selena matured)... but it's obvious pandering and people are wanting this rehashed garbage to be the representatives of Fates instead of some of the new (and higher quality, IMO) characters.  No thought was put into their actual integration into the story until after the three paths were made.

Anyway, if you hate characters like Takumi, Oboro, Leo, Saizo, Beruka, Mozu, Kaze, or Benny, then I highly doubt there's anything I can say that could convince you to like the cast more as it's all subjective anyway.  All I can say is try to read all their supports if you have the time and if you haven't already.  I know I used to really dislike Peri, but after seeing her supports with Laslow, I at least appreciate her a little bit more.

7 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Serena I agree with, since Several was already an alright character, but Gaius and Tharja were so godawful that Asugi and Rhajat being tolerable is, in fact, a major improvement. 

I found Asugi to be less tolerable, actually.  Tharja, though... I agree that Rhajat is better, even though I think her support with Corrin is actually a bit worse than Tharja x Robin because the S support turns stalking into this "cute" little game, instead of something that's merely acceptable and enough to win someone's affection.

5 minutes ago, Gruntagen said:

What Fog of War?

Probably referring to the FoW chapters in Revelation.  The first Valla map and then the ice chipping map.  Can't think of any other maps where FoW is remotely a thing.

7 minutes ago, Gruntagen said:

I didn't get that feeling at all from playing that map on Hard. I just got the feeling that the map was being really unfair and I couldn't get any enjoyment from having to play the map and go through the same motions over and over again because somebody keeps on dying or gets an unlucky miss. I don't know why I have that feeling, but I just don't get as much enjoyment playing Conquest as I did playing FEs 3 to 11 emulated and with savestates.

I get the feeling from some of your posts that you have a different playstyle than some FE fans.  If that's the case, then I'm not sure if you'll ever enjoy CQ because you kind of have to play that path a certain way (there's still leeway, but there are definitely a lot of no-no's, let's say).  Though at the same time, I understand when a game is "too challenging"; I've got a laundry list of games that I don't play (or at least that I don't play online) because I can never win with them.

Though I highly recommend you try to ease yourself away from using savestates.  Or otherwise play Casual/Phoenix mode.  Also, if CQ is your first experience with Fates, move onto another path.  Seriously, I know people who started with CQ and absolutely hated Fates, while those who started with BR generally liked it more.

12 minutes ago, Gruntagen said:

Dang it. I'm just overall trash at giving topic OPs, so I just resort to using the first thing that comes to my head. What should I change it to?

"Getta loada dis loser weeb throwing smack at Fates"

Anything that doesn't invoke religion, politics, social issues, or explicit content is infinitely better than what you got here.  You could just have "brain fartz" as your topic, and it'd be a lot better.

I'm not a religious person, but I know from personal experience how invoking that name in vain can be a really bad thing.

[Dandy Druid]

2 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

I really can't agree with this. I can understand people just comparing 13 Severa to 14 Severa and going "they seem like they've been given a bit of character development and/or have specifics in their routines that I like", but that still can't distract me from the fact that IT'S STILL SEVERA AGAIN. Sure, if you liked them before, you'll still like them now, but the opposite is just as true, and I feel like people who didn't like them but are fine with their presence are just consigning themselves to their presence against their will. It's like Stockholm Syndrome in a way.

In my parentheses I only mention Asugi and Rhajat as the improved versions. The Conquest Crew really didn't change/improve for me, since they're relatively the same. I was going to list Caeldori, but I find her boring, so she's not improved either. But for Asugi and Rhajat, they seem more like what Gaius and Tharja could've been. Rhajat even has a more justifiable (but still weak in most contexts) reason for their obsession with the self-insert. But other than that, only 2/6 of Awakenclones turned out decent, while the other 4 could've easily been replaced. I don't really like the ideas of character knockoffs, but Fates isn't the first to do this.

[Gruntagen]

Raagh, why do I cringe so heavily to see people referring to the reused FE13 characters by their new names...

35 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

I highly recommend you try to ease yourself away from using savestates

I've tried. But I ended up resorting to savestates anyways after I lost a unit in the first few turns of FE6 Hard mode. What do you recommend I play to stop being so dependent on them? Also, I don't think "playing easier difficulties" works, since it feels like I'm missing something by playing on anything that isn't the hardest possible difficulty.

 

30 minutes ago, Dandy Druid said:

even has a more justifiable (but still weak in most contexts) reason for their obsession with the self-insert.

Not really. It's gone from a supplemental material reason to something the player never even sees and is only related to in an "As you know, your father the king"-style support conversations after the fact. It was annoying enough when Silas's offscreen relationship with the Kaiser was explained by magic/forgetting, but it gets really annoying when they explain Tharja's Yandereness with the same explanation combined with Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

Quote

I don't really like the ideas of character knockoffs, but Fates isn't the first to do this.

Within the series, or within video games you enjoy? Because I don't think archetypes should count so much as "reusing characters".

Edited July 2, 2017 by Gruntagen

[Dark Holy Elf]

8 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

I've tried. But I ended up resorting to savestates anyways after I lost a unit in the first few turns of FE6 Hard mode. What do you recommend I play to stop being so dependent on them? Also, I don't think "playing easier difficulties" works, since it feels like I'm missing something by playing on anything that isn't the hardest possible difficulty.

If you're using savestates, you... aren't really playing on the hardest possible difficulty. Not that there's anything wrong with that! Savestates dramatically make any FE far easier, and I would second those who recommend trying to get away from them. It sounds like you're annoyed that you don't have access to savestates in Fates and you did in many previous FEs but that's hardly Fates' fault.

And if you really can't get away from savestates, you know that you can just play Fates on Casual and load battle saves, right? It's pretty much the same thing.

[Rapier]

8 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

I've tried. But I ended up resorting to savestates anyways after I lost a unit in the first few turns of FE6 Hard mode. What do you recommend I play to stop being so dependent on them? Also, I don't think "playing easier difficulties" works, since it feels like I'm missing something by playing on anything that isn't the hardest possible difficulty.

FE is more like a "puzzle game" than a strategy game with lots of probability floating around (like Wesnoth). Chances are your units won't miss hits unless they're below 70%, but it is still entirely possible to retort to a Plan-B if things go wrong, which is, at worst, save states (never make a move that absolutely requires success or your unit dies horribly, like sending a peg knight to kill an archer with 2 hits and 60% chances of success). You can have a good grasp of what is going to happen during the Enemy Phase by checking enemy units' stats, comparing to your units and predicting what will happen next turn. This is hard to do and takes time and practice, but I think it is the key for playing FE efficiently.

As for the topic's theme, I don't disagree with everything that guy said, but his tone and anger polluted his argument so much that there is a lot of ranty fluff.

I don't like Conquest and Revelations' gimmicks, which is why I can only enjoy Conquest until the ship map because I hate the ninja map gimmick (it makes the map drag, it requires perfect navigation otherwise restart and drag your way through the map again), the wind tribe map gimmick, the kitsunes and Hinoka's "slow your movement to a crawl and blitzkrieg your ass with 12 mov peg knights" gimmick. The only map I liked was Sakura's and Takumi's somewhat, which were around my expectations.

Revelations is even worse with the solid fog-of-war gimmick and others. Characters are either mediocre or good enough (obviously, from my standards, although I am bold enough to claim that it is indisputable that most characters have "character gimmicks" and live by them as in FE13, which is bad character design), with none memorable enough, but I don't see that as much of a problem. FE13 was much worse.

tl;dr, the game has bad story, questionable map design 50% (late game Conquest and Revelations, hi) of the time, ok map design (Birthright, basically) 30% of the time and good map design 20% of the time (early to mid Conquest, I'm looking at you), good and challenging gameplay, awesome ost and ok graphics. I think it is an above average game, if anything.

[Gruntagen]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

And if you really can't get away from savestates, you know that you can just play Fates on Casual and load battle saves, right? It's pretty much the same thing.

I tried that already. I couldn't get past Chapter 17 Hard on Classic because it was so goddamn tedious, so I switched to Casual. But I couldn't get past Chapter 10 Hard because it was too hard and repetitive, wasn't fun, and everywhere I went for help, people were telling me to use Archer Mozu, early promotion of Effie, and/or Haitaka when I find reclass, early promotion and Captured units to be sacrilege. I had to end up buying the Grinding, Money and Anna DLCs just so I could say "I beat Conquest", and even then I still wasn't having any fun, and don't even think that I should deserve to say "I beat Conquest", since it was through DLC and wasn't on Lunatic.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Gruntagen

[Ronnie]

I will never understand how people can be so passionate about hating a game. I can't see where they get the energy to write a "1-page" essay about their dislike for the story or its gameplay or how a fanfic has a better story. I guess it doesn't mean much coming from an indifferent person such as myself. I don't hold many strong opinions unless I really like something then I could write a whole paragraph about why I like Fire Emblem Awakening. Reading that linked comment reminds me of several comments I read on Youtube comments or GameFAQs discussions. I've even read people saying they cringe at the thought of reading Fire Emblem Fates's title or its characters names like how???

[Ertrick36]

13 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

I've tried. But I ended up resorting to savestates anyways after I lost a unit in the first few turns of FE6 Hard mode. What do you recommend I play to stop being so dependent on them? Also, I don't think "playing easier difficulties" works, since it feels like I'm missing something by playing on anything that isn't the hardest possible difficulty.

Your biggest problem is your mentality with easier difficulties.  You may be "missing out" on a bit of the challenge by lowering the difficulty, but you're missing out on a whole hell of a lot more by outright avoiding playing through these games because you can't play them on certain difficulties.

Right now, all I can offer are tips I would give to newbies.  Always think about what'll happen in the next turn (focus on what the enemies do and what their options are before you begin to consider what to do with your own units) and keep on playing.  I can't emphasize the latter enough...  It's the only way you'll get better.  I started off being absolute garbage at FE, playing on Casual Normal on Awakening.  Now because I've played the games so dilligently, I'm willing and able to take on most FE's on at least Hard Classic.  Also, don't be afraid to ask SF about anything tactics or gameplay related.

3 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

I tried that already. I couldn't get past Chapter 17 Hard on Classic because it was so goddamn tedious, so I switched to Casual. But I couldn't get past Chapter 10 Hard because it was too hard and repetitive, wasn't fun, and everywhere I went for help, people were telling me to use Archer Mozu, early promotion of Effie, and/or Haitaka when I find reclass, early promotion and Captured units to be sacrilege. I had to end up buying the Grinding, Money and Anna DLCs just so I could say "I beat Conquest", and even then I still wasn't having any fun, and don't even think that I should deserve to say "I beat Conquest", since it was through DLC and wasn't on Lunatic.

Well for one thing, it that's the only advice people gave you, then they suck at giving actual advice.  You can't just get specific characters and expect to win.  You need to be able to strategize and plan ahead.  You need to be able to build an effective team and be able apply their unique abilities in an effective manner.  And you gotta be able to handle all the different maps and objectives CQ throws at you.  These are skills you develop over time as you play these kinds of games, so maybe that's why such information was omitted, but it should still be said for anyone having difficulty with this path.

And I think the problem here is you're trying to beat Conquest when you haven't even to beaten other traditional FE games without savestates.  Play one of those other games without savestates first.  I'd recommend playing Mystery of the Emblem without savestates.  Or Shadow Dragon.  They can be challenging, but they're also quite simple, so you can better ease into the games.

Or maybe even create a meta-Classic; you play CQ on Casual so that you have access to Battle Saves (save in the middle of battle and come back to that save as many times as you want), but you treat it like Classic in that if a unit dies, you have to restart (or stop using that unit).  Because that way, it's at least somewhat like you're still using savestates.  And I guarantee you that at least some hardcore FE fans do this as well, so it isn't like you're missing the challenge of it all.  Most modern turn-based strategy games, like XCOM or even Valkyria Chronicles, let you save in the middle of battle as well.

And beyond that, don't beat yourself up if you never beat CQ on Lunatic.  Seriously, don't, because then you'll actually go insane.  Only, like, 10% of Fates players have ever beaten Conquest on Lunatic without DLC and on Classic mode.  And it really, really isn't all that big a deal anyway, honestly.

[SoulWeaver]

15 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

I wouldn't, but I still have an irrational hatred towards everything to do with Cordelia for no reason I've ever been able to explain beyond an oversimplistic trio of statements along the lines of: "She ruins Catria", "She feels specifically engineered to make players lust over her", and "Pyrrha".

Well, at least you did your best to give me a reason, which is better than some people I've had "discussions" with about Cordelia!

To be honest, while yes, Cordelia was basically intended to be Catria 2.0(she even was originally planned to have blue hair), she ended up somehow becoming a unique character who really shouldn't be only compared to Catria, though I couldn't tell you exactly how she ended up that way. Also, I think Palla suffers the same core issue as Catria but in my opinion worse because she lost Abel to her own little sister(MEGA RIP Palla/Est Echoes A Support) as opposed to some noble who seemed like an obvious better option for Marth anyways because reasons.

I recognize 'Pyrrha' as being a mythology/history reference, but I can't remember the exact details and so can't address that(proof I need to put FE down and go read more).

Cordelia being specifically engineered to make players lust over her…hm. I've actually never heard that argument before, and to be honest there's a lot of truth there - she has the tragic backstory to elicit our sympathy with all her comrades being ruthlessly slaughtered by the Plegians while she herself was sent to warn the others, knowing she would have to live the rest of her life with the feeling that she abandoned them, she's a freaking genius who's also quite modest about it, which is a plus for a lot of guys I know, and she's also got her own imperfections that she's very keen on keeping hidden from others, most humorously thanks to the Summer Scramble her bust size, and even just that makes her seem more like a real character to a decently sized group of people. She's also super hot, which is a definite plus. I don't really have anything to refute this claim, honestly, but I know that I can speak for myself and say that her character resonated more with me than any other character in the game except possibly Severa, and I'm not sure how to classify my thoughts on Severa as I invariably marry her off to Subaki every Fates playthrough for no reason other than to watch her have a meltdown during her A Support with Caeldori because it makes me happy to watch her cry. Not when anyone else cries in either game, just her. Heck, I even wrote up a story where I took Subaki through time to Awakening and married him off to Cordelia for the sole purpose of ruining Severa's life even further with a perfect father, perfect mother, and perfect sister because Caeldori. Now you all know.

In the end, I'm not really sure why I like Cordelia so much. Maybe it was that Sumia was such a klutz that it made Cordelia seem even more perfect in comparison.  Maybe she's what I want my future wife to be. Maybe I just really like red hair and don't realize it(Roy is my favorite Lord just thanks to Smash Bros. alone, now that I think about it…). In the end, you hate Cordelia, I'll hate Asugi, we'll try not to let those opinions get in the way of talking to each other like reasonable human beings, and it all works out.

[Dandy Druid]

17 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

Within the series, or within video games you enjoy? Because I don't think archetypes should count so much as "reusing characters".

Within this series, Thracia 776 has some characters that are very reminiscent of certain substitutes from FE4.

A few examples would be:

Radney and Machyua, Laylea and Lara, Tristan and Carrion, Miranda and Linda. 

And FE6's cast has a ton of people based off of Marth's Crew as well. Here's a link.

 

[tacticianwhite]

18 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

I found Asugi to be less tolerable, actually.  Tharja, though... I agree that Rhajat is better, even though I think her support with Corrin is actually a bit worse than Tharja x Robin because the S support turns stalking into this "cute" little game, instead of something that's merely acceptable and enough to win someone's affection.

Might I suggest the Japanese version of F!Corrin x Rhajat? That one handled Rhajat's character a lot better I feel. Even if she did still start out kind of creepy, she was not like that for the entire Support, and it's what probably made me like her better than Tharja.

[Gruntagen]

2 minutes ago, Dandy Druid said:

Radney and Machyua, Laylea and Lara, Tristan and Carrion, Miranda and Linda. 

...Huh. Never thought those portraits were supposed to be repurposed from substitute units.

And yeah, I've seen that image comparing FE1 and FE6 characters. Heck, that's not even where FE6 stops with reused units. But even then, it's not literally reusing entire character designs and personalities and forcing them into a new game because they won a popularity poll.

[Dandy Druid]

2 minutes ago, Gruntagen said:

...Huh. Never thought those portraits were supposed to be repurposed from substitute units.

And yeah, I've seen that image comparing FE1 and FE6 characters. Heck, that's not even where FE6 stops with reused units. But even then, it's not literally reusing entire character designs and personalities and forcing them into a new game because they won a popularity poll.

I believe 3 of the subs were planned to be in the game in the beginning (Asaello, Daisy, and Hermina), but they went unused. I guess you can say Karin is even a knockoff of Hermina. But the 4 I mentioned have pretty similar appearances and backgrounds than the FE4 subs. They're not as blatant as the Fates knockoffs though, thankfully. Helps that the artstyles are different from FE4 to FE5.

[Ertrick36]

11 hours ago, spiderbrush said:

Might I suggest the Japanese version of F!Corrin x Rhajat? That one handled Rhajat's character a lot better I feel. Even if she did still start out kind of creepy, she was not like that for the entire Support, and it's what probably made me like her better than Tharja.

Uh... I'd try, but I'm not sure where I could look.  Where can I find a good translation of it?

11 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

And yeah, I've seen that image comparing FE1 and FE6 characters. Heck, that's not even where FE6 stops with reused units. But even then, it's not literally reusing entire character designs and personalities and forcing them into a new game because they won a popularity poll.

I think they can and should reuse characters if a) they make it a sensible continuity, preferably not something that needs to be stretched, (b) the characters they use have room to grow or change still and (c) they have more personal reasons for fighting in the next game's war that don't stem from the oh-so disconnected "make our dead parents' homeworld pretty".  It'd be most preferable if characters were reused only within their own worlds or as cameos in DLC or whatever.  That way, you don't really have to try as hard to explain why they're fighting once again.

But yeah, no denying that the integration of these six characters sucked in this game.

[saisymbolic]

3 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Uh... I'd try, but I'm not sure where I could look.  Where can I find a good translation of it?

I'm relatively certain they have the translated Japanese supports somewhere on Pastebin. I remember looking at them before the games were released in English. I'll try to find them for you.

[tacticianwhite]

2 minutes ago, saisymbolic said:

I'm relatively certain they have the translated Japanese supports somewhere on Pastebin. I remember looking at them before the games were released in English. I'll try to find them for you.

Ah. I have it, actually:

https://pastebin.com/e5fpH6m6

I will admit that the C and B parts still may be....off-putting, but the A and S parts are really good. Honestly I'm probably making it a bigger deal than it is, so I apologize if that's the case.