Thoughts on Equips/Forging/Combat Arts?

[Interdimensional Observer]

So what does everyone think of the various overhauls IS made in this game to weapons, skills, forging, non-weapon equipment, etc.?

 

I think IS did pretty well with the new weapon system. It maintains the spirit of old Gaiden with the equipment quantity still being relatively finite, and adds some depth. Each weapon type has a couple good selections even when we're talking about ultimates; in Bows for instance Killer, Long, Radiant, and Parthia all have their uses in addition to Luna- which is so rare that it deserves to be broken. Forging evolution does have significant tradeoffs sometimes too- replacing your forged Blessed Lance with a Gradivus results in an power loss vs. Terrors and can make it difficult for those who aren't super fast to use when confronted with middling Speed foes. There are some imbalances- the Rapier for instance requires the sacrifice of a valuable Brave Sword, while the Royal Sword makes Alm a little too good. Forging costs seem to me to require a little too much Gold, but are generally bearable and force one to spend wisely for a DLC-free main game. Overall this was a job well done.

Provisions and non-Weapon equips aren't so good though. Unless you're a magic user, forsaking a weapon means a serious loss in damage deal capabilities. Shields needed more Combat Arts (though Defensive makes the Steel Shield amazing for tanking) and to be forgeable- leaving them out of the system was a waste. Rings are a similar case, okayish for physical units, better for Mages. Well more like amazing and specifically designed for Mages, the really good Rings (Speed and Mage) fortunately show up pretty late to keep them balanced. Provisions are invariably the weakest part of this item system, you'd almost never want to use one given that one slot competes with weapons and equipment, and a 1-use healing item isn't worth much, and running back to Alm/Celica for another isn't conducive to quick or well-fought battles. Having a second item slot specifically for Provisions or non-weapons might have been broken, but on the other hand it might have made non-weapons better.

Combat Arts were a fairly good idea. It gives physical units variety in their offense, while not being as luck heavy as proc Skills. The HP cost and need to master a weapon first to unlock a lot of the good stuff makes room for strategy. If you're aiming for Blitzkrieg, you can't expect to master that many weapons with single character, so you have to choose wisely which ones you give them.

[Jedi]

I think future games could maybe refine the items formula, but I dno if they will in a future Traditional styled FE.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I didn't really like the forging system much. Since the game didn't tell you what you were evolving a weapon into it felt like the game wanted you to use a guide for that aspect of the system, which is a no-no.

I'm fine with the weapons themselves and I liked the associated skills (HP costs are a great idea for FE honestly, they fit well with the simple mechanics of the series), for all that I feel that the skills should have unlocked faster than they did and/or the game should have told you more about the skills in advance.

Basically the system was too opaque in a way I'm not used to from Fire Emblem and I didn't like it that much.

In addition I hope they go back to the normal FE system of making it so you can buy weapons if you wish. It's rather ridiclous that I can't buy one of my units an iron lance when I'm fighting dozens of enemies who use them. What kind of army can't buy basic weaponry? I also hope they go back to letting my characters carry multiple weapons because "do I use weapon X or weapon Y" is a basic tactical choice in FE I find a lot of fun. We still got to make this choice with Alm and Celica due to the convoy option but nobody else really (except in very specific positioning situations).

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I like combat arts. It's nice for them to give non magic units a system of skills to learn over the course of the game. But I don't like those arts being tied to specific weapons, and for there to be so little overlap. A lot of Arts just aren't very good. Either beaten by a later Art learned with that weapon, or the bonuses don't make up for the inability to double. Restricting all Arts from not being able to double could very well be the core issue. To make up for it, Arts need insane bonuses to crit rate, and that's the trade off. Do you want to double for guaranteed damage but not a kill, or hope for a crit. I like that risk vs reward scenario, so why not just have the Crit +30 skill be the ones uniquely incapable of doubling? Similarly, if you don't want the units using certain skills combined with certain weapons, then just restrict those skills to that weapon.

The classes that I most used Arts with are definitely armor knights, since they won't double regardless, and often have the HP to spare if there's no mages around.

[Dunal]

I do like Combat Arts, more so then proc-based skills (Hit and Crit is honestly all we need for RNG, adding another layer on top of that is unnecessary). However rather than costing HP they should have a set turn cooldown rather than costing HP. This means that some of the weaker skills can afford be stronger (something like Mistdancer could allow you to double for instance), and that the stronger skills that do exist cannot be spammed (Hunter’s Volley or Double Lion with a 3 or 4 turn CD would be fine). Generally speaking though I do like them a lot since they allow player phase to be more relevant, which is always a good thing. Even though some skills are a bit too strong, I like that they give emphasis on that.

Forging is good. Probably the best it's ever been; certainly leagues better than Fates. I do agree that not being able to see upgrades is a bit odd (even though you can save/reset to check) but that's my only gripe with it. 

As for weapons as a whole -- Fate's balancing for them is more interesting overall (if not executed perfectly in that game, particularly with the prf weapons) but I dig how they expanded on Gaiden. Fixed weight for all weapons is overly punishing for lower/middling speed units as opposed to faster units (so the opposite to GBA Con for instance) which was/is a problem; but that's only more of an issue due to the way doubling thresholds work in this game which I doubt will return (it's not good design that gaining a whole 2 speed can make you go from being doubled to doubling).

 

 

[joshcja]

Agreed that the game should probably have been more open about weapon forges (save-reload made figuring it out easy but still). The resource management of forging is just very well done on Alms route. Not so much on Celica's side as she has very limited money and a very clear optimal forge path (unless you try to work in the blessed lance for the exact same kills a +5 steel lance gives).

Combat arts being tied to weapons/equipment and having a cost is a very good thing, 1 slot inventory makes this moderately annoying at times and it takes more dedication than necessary to unlock a few of the less good 2nd or 3rd tier arts.

My main issue is that most high tier weapons just have straight up worse arts in many situations and there are too many arts that just...do the same thing (aka less damage than normal attacks).

Edited July 6, 2017 by joshcja

[DragonFlames]

I like the idea of weapons having skills tied to them. What I don't really like is the distribution of said skills. I mean, the Gradivus, Parthia and Mercurius are basically worth nothing when the Zweihänder, Romphaea, Ladyblade and Killer Bow exist.
The forging system is a lot better than it was in Fates (which, like almost everything else in that game, was a complete mess), but I'd also like for it to be less secretive about which weapon upgrades into which.
What I would also appreciate is the ability to equip both a weapon and a shield. I don't see why I wouldn't be able to, seeing as how some classes have a sword / lance and shield in their default model.

Otherwise, I think this game has the most realistic inventory system yet. Being able to have only one weapon with you makes sense, at least. I always found it hilarious picturing some of the shorter, not exactly buff characters (like, say, Lissa, PoR Sothe, Chad or Nino) carrying a crapton of large and heavy weapons around. It also makes managing your inventory a little easier.
Additionally, it makes trading even more important / viable than it was in past games.

While it needs some fine-tuning, especially in terms of balance (why would you ever need anything other than Zweihänder, Ladyblade, Killer Bow or Romphaea?), I'd like to see this system return in future games, honestly.