Fixing the 3DS Support Problem: Build higher, not wider

[Corrobin]

What I mean is, instead of a male character having 20 different characters they can support with, with 3 conversations for 10 of them (males) and 4 conversations for the other 10 (females), what if a character had... 5 characters they can support with (for sake of argument, 3 women and 2 men), with 6 conversations with the dudes and 7 with the chicks (assuming S-supports are a Thing)? It seems like a decent enough solution for the "four conversations and you're in LOVE" AND the "bland, generic/comedic fluff supports" problems.

[Maritisa]

This sounds fine to me. Only thing to worry about is balancing support bonuses, but it shouldn't be that bad as long as they don't go the inflation route.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The quickest fix would be dropping the S supports altogether. C through A have to remain platonic enough that there's no hint of a spark between the two. So it's dull slice of life chatter. I'll show you my character trope if you show me yours. Meanwhile the S support not only introduces the idea that the partners like each other, but a proposal in the same conversation! These two things always occur in the final conversation, making them incredibly formulaic.

I think formula is the greater issue than the "quantity" of conversations. You can knock out 20 great stories through supports on each character, but you can't do it if those stories all have the same ending. It's like if I sat you down in a chair and said I'm about to tell you 100 knock knock jokes. You'll laugh at a few, but you're gonna be too tired of the formula to hear the next 80.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Gustavos

[NinjaMonkey]

What 3DS support problem? I wouldn't say that there was any problem at all.

[Enaluxeme]

Characters should have fewer lover options, and this includes having different sex conversations that go up to A and can't reach S. Forcing an S rank for everyone is just bad.

What I want is this: Imagine if in FE7 or FE8, support options that lead to a paired ending get up to S rank, while every other one only up to A rank, then your character can get as many supports as they want but only 1 S rank. Basically like Awakening, but toned down on the "everyone with a different sex than me and not in my immediate family is a potential lover" department.

[NinjaMonkey]

20 minutes ago, Enaluxeme said:

Characters should have fewer lover options, and this includes having different sex conversations that go up to A and can't reach S. Forcing an S rank for everyone is just bad.

You care to explain how it's bad?

Quote

What I want is this: Imagine if in FE7 or FE8, support options that lead to a paired ending get up to S rank, while every other one only up to A rank, then your character can get as many supports as they want but only 1 S rank. Basically like Awakening, but toned down on the "everyone with a different sex than me and not in my immediate family is a potential lover" department.

That only ever happened with Robin and Corrin. Everyone else had a smaller list of people that they could S Rank (which you would know if you played either of Awakening or Fates).

Edited July 9, 2017 by NinjaMonkey

[Enaluxeme]

I did play Awakening. With the exception of Sumia, all gen 1 characters could S rank every gen 1 character of opposite sex, even if the rest of their support was not romantic in nature at all. Many support chains just end with the A support and are then brought back from nothing just so the male can present the female with his ring.

[YingofDarkness]

13 hours ago, Corrobin said:

What I mean is, instead of a male character having 20 different characters they can support with, with 3 conversations for 10 of them (males) and 4 conversations for the other 10 (females), what if a character had... 5 characters they can support with (for sake of argument, 3 women and 2 men), with 6 conversations with the dudes and 7 with the chicks (assuming S-supports are a Thing)? It seems like a decent enough solution for the "four conversations and you're in LOVE" AND the "bland, generic/comedic fluff supports" problems.

I feel like this might have the same problem that we have now in a way. All the opposite sex supports will still have to follow a similar pattern because they are all leading up to the same conclusion. I feel like combining this with Enaluxeme's idea works a bit better. Don't have everybody in the army be able to talk to each other, but also don't have every member of the opposite sex romanceable. Not everybody is going to want to marry every member of the opposite sex, but not everybody is going to want to become friends with everybody either.

Ideally I'd love it if they had 6 supports for all of them, but for the romanceable options the last 3 can be split off into either lovers dialogue or friendship depending on whether the other character confessed to them or not.

Hold up NinjaMonkey. Are we sure we are playing the same Fates and Awakening games because you can practically marry whoever you want in those games to whoever else. In Awakening the only exceptions are the few Avatarsexuals, Chrom, and Sumia. Everybody else can marry whoever they wanted even when they didn't make sense. Same thing in Fates where for each game you can marry whoever to whoever except the, again, few Avatarsexuals in each route. In Birthright, you can marry practically everybody to everybody else in the Hoshidan army. In Conquest, you can marry practically every Nohrian to every other Nohrian in the army. Revelation is the only technical exception where you can't marry everybody in the Hoshidan army to everybody in the Nohrian army, but even then the few that you can marry to each other just add to those characters already bloated support lists.

Edited July 9, 2017 by YingofDarkness
Forgot to respond to NinjaMonkey

[NinjaMonkey]

40 minutes ago, Enaluxeme said:

With the exception of Sumia, all gen 1 characters could S rank every gen 1 character of opposite sex, even if the rest of their support was not romantic in nature at all.

Except Chrom doesn't have any supports with Miriel, Tharja, Nowi, Tiki, Cherche, Aversa, Emmeryn or Flavia, making your statement false.

Edited July 9, 2017 by NinjaMonkey

[Slumber]

55 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Except Chrom doesn't have any supports with Miriel, Tharja, Nowi, Tiki, Cherche, Aversa, Emmeryn or Flavia, making your statement false.

Chrom's the one exception for story reasons, and Sumia is the only female with any limit on who she can marry in first gen for... reasons. And then the late-game side characters who got no support chains outside of the Avatar. But all of the Shepherds can pretty much bone every other Shepherd.

 

3 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

You care to explain how it's bad?

Some people just shouldn't end up together. People don't always fall in love after talking to each other enough times. If it was purely a gameplay thing, then whatever, go wild. But these supports are how we see 95% of the characters' dialogues, so having weird, awkward turns where one character thinks the other hates them, but the other stops and goes "but i lu u", which is how most of the pairings that make no sense go, doesn't help these characters at all.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Slumber

[NekoKnight]

11 hours ago, Enaluxeme said:

What I want is this: Imagine if in FE7 or FE8, support options that lead to a paired ending get up to S rank, while every other one only up to A rank, then your character can get as many supports as they want but only 1 S rank. Basically like Awakening, but toned down on the "everyone with a different sex than me and not in my immediate family is a potential lover" department.

This basically. Not all relationships should end in romance (I could see platonic S supports) and not everyone is compatible with everyone else.

There is only so much story that you can tell about a minor character, and when characters have too many support options, supports tend to get repetitive or rely on gimmicks.

[Corrobin]

On 7/9/2017 at 3:18 PM, YingofDarkness said:

I feel like this might have the same problem that we have now in a way. All the opposite sex supports will still have to follow a similar pattern because they are all leading up to the same conclusion. I feel like combining this with Enaluxeme's idea works a bit better. Don't have everybody in the army be able to talk to each other, but also don't have every member of the opposite sex romanceable. Not everybody is going to want to marry every member of the opposite sex, but not everybody is going to want to become friends with everybody either.

Ideally I'd love it if they had 6 supports for all of them, but for the romanceable options the last 3 can be split off into either lovers dialogue or friendship depending on whether the other character confessed to them or not.

Hold up NinjaMonkey. Are we sure we are playing the same Fates and Awakening games because you can practically marry whoever you want in those games to whoever else. In Awakening the only exceptions are the few Avatarsexuals, Chrom, and Sumia. Everybody else can marry whoever they wanted even when they didn't make sense. Same thing in Fates where for each game you can marry whoever to whoever except the, again, few Avatarsexuals in each route. In Birthright, you can marry practically everybody to everybody else in the Hoshidan army. In Conquest, you can marry practically every Nohrian to every other Nohrian in the army. Revelation is the only technical exception where you can't marry everybody in the Hoshidan army to everybody in the Nohrian army, but even then the few that you can marry to each other just add to those characters already bloated support lists.

But more conversations means we can have deeper, more in-depth character growth and development! 

 

And another idea I had: not all S-supports have to end in immediate marriage. For the younger characters, it could mean they start dating or officially become boyfriend and girlfriend. Maybe the characters admit they want to marry, but agree to wait until the game is over to do so.

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, Corrobin said:

But more conversations means we can have deeper, more in-depth character growth and development! 

Or they can royally fuck it up (see: Fates).  Writing out a lot of conversations, while trying to keep personalities consistent, is really hard to pull off.  Some people just won't click, no matter how many times they talk (I can't see Soliel marrying Ignatius, ever).  I liked Sumia's limited S supports, and feel that it should've been that way for every non-avatar character.

[Interdimensional Observer]

I'll throw in a concern of mine that even if we have more conversations, it be hard to fill them all with zest and excitement and some may come off as being filler packed with unappealing ordinary life. That said, maybe I'm overplaying the boisterousness of supports. And if we adapted ourselves to a more gradual approach, we'd be able to appreciate the whole and how the gradual changes gradually create a definitive change in the persons involved in the support.