New banners announced: Alm's Army/Celica's Army

[DehNutCase]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

Celica isn't a cavalry unit so comparing Ragnarok to cavalry Litrblade is not a relevant comparison.

That just makes Ragnarok even worse in the comparison. The actual comparison would be losing 13 Atk in exchange for 1 special charge cd and 3 speed. I gave a theoretical cavalry comparison give Ragnarok's best case in comparison to -blade. (That is, I ignored the Prf disadvantage of being uninheritable.)

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

That just makes Ragnarok even worse in the comparison. The actual comparison would be losing 13 Atk in exchange for 1 special charge cd and 3 speed. I gave a theoretical cavalry comparison give Ragnarok's best case in comparison to -blade. (That is, I ignored the Prf disadvantage of being uninheritable.)

You're also off on the Atk number.

Hone Cavalry Litrblade+ is +31 Atk (13 base Atk, +6 Hone Cavalry, +12 Litrblade's additional effect) and +6 Spd (+6 Hone Cavalry).
Hone Cavalry Ragnarok is +25 Atk (14 base Atk, +6 Hone Cavalry, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect) and +11 Spd (+6 Hone Cavalry, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect).

That's only a difference of -6 Atk for +5 Spd, not -11 Atk.

Full Renais buff Litrblade+ is +29 Atk (13 base Atk, +3 Sieglinde, +13 Litrblade's additional effect) and +4 Spd (+4 Hone Spd 3).
Full Renais buff Ragnarok is +22 Atk (14 base Atk, +3 Sieglinde, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect) and +9 Spd (+4 Hone Spd 3, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect).

That's a difference of -7 Atk for +5 Spd.

Passive Renais buff Litrblade+ is +25 Atk (13 base Atk, +3 Sieglinde, +9 Litrblade's additional effect) and +4 Spd (+4 Hone Spd 3).
Passive Renais buff Ragnarok is +22 Atk (14 base Atk, +3 Sieglinde, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect) and +9 Spd (+4 Hone Spd 3, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect).

That's a difference of -3 Atk for +5 Spd.

[Roflolxp54]

Wow, they really want to indirectly nerf Horse Emblem (overpowered for several reasons) and Triangle Adept (seems that the extra 20% damage bonus/penalty from playing according to the color triangle is deemed a little too strong)!

Ridersbane and Zanbato weapons.

Cancel Affinity (basically only affects units running Triangle Adept and gem weapons).

 

In other news...

Wind Boost is no longer event-exclusive (previously, it was a default skill of Bride Charlotte; it will be obtainable from Gray).

Dark Aura's passive effect is extremely strong - helps give melee units a leg up!

So, Slaying weapons... looks like Killer weapons' days are numbered (Killer weapons aren't that good though units that get them by default are rather screwed without inheritance).

Plan on getting Gray for Sword Valor - also need a reason to start pulling reds.

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Roflolxp54

[Emeraldfox]

Out of the six I just want Delthea, another blue for my list. I was going to pull from the Summer banner but nope lul.

[Vaximillian]

3 minutes ago, Roflolxp54 said:

So, Slaying weapons... looks like Killer weapons' days are numbered (Killer weapons aren't that good though units that get them by default are rather screwed without inheritance).

I’m just caling them overkiller weapons.

EDIT: MAYBE THE OVERKILLER LANCE WILL BE A NAGINATA??? @Arcanite

Edited July 12, 2017 by Vaximillian

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

I’m just caling them overkiller weapons.

EDIT: MAYBE THE OVERKILLER LANCE WILL BE A NAGINATA??? @Arcanite

If I'm not mistaken, they use the same sprites as the regular Killer weapons.

Also, the Japanese names of the weapons are "Kill Sword Forged+" (i.e. "Killing Edge Forged+") and "Killer Bow Forged+".

 

Maybe Niles will actually be able to do some damage now.

[Roflolxp54]

Looks like Grani's Shield is becoming less useless though still situational at best - anti-horse units can still be dealt with via KOing them before they can retaliate in a similar vein in how fliers can deal with bow units besides running Iote's Shield.

[DehNutCase]

24 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You're also off on the Atk number.

Hone Cavalry Litrblade+ is +31 Atk (13 base Atk, +6 Hone Cavalry, +12 Litrblade's additional effect) and +6 Spd (+6 Hone Cavalry).
Hone Cavalry Ragnarok is +25 Atk (14 base Atk, +6 Hone Cavalry, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect) and +11 Spd (+6 Hone Cavalry, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect).

That's only a difference of -6 Atk for +5 Spd, not -11 Atk.

Full Renais buff Litrblade+ is +29 Atk (13 base Atk, +3 Sieglinde, +13 Litrblade's additional effect) and +4 Spd (+4 Hone Spd 3).
Full Renais buff Ragnarok is +22 Atk (14 base Atk, +3 Sieglinde, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect) and +9 Spd (+4 Hone Spd 3, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect).

That's a difference of -7 Atk for +5 Spd.

Passive Renais buff Litrblade+ is +25 Atk (13 base Atk, +3 Sieglinde, +9 Litrblade's additional effect) and +4 Spd (+4 Hone Spd 3).
Passive Renais buff Ragnarok is +22 Atk (14 base Atk, +3 Sieglinde, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect) and +9 Spd (+4 Hone Spd 3, +5 Ragnarok's additional effect).

That's a difference of -3 Atk for +5 Spd.

Hmm, yeah:

+6/+6 is equal, so it's +12 Atk v. +6 Atk +5 Spd on cavalry, meaning only a 6 Atk swing for 5 speed and 1 special charge on a theoretical Ragnarok cavalry versus -blade. (Mind, I'd still take it, since special charge is barely relevant and Atk tends to be better than spd---Setsuna being the clear example)

Fort still gives another 12 Atk swing, but that's limited to full on Cavalry emblem.

 

+3/4/4/2 7 Atk for 5 spd, as you've said, and dropping 4 is 4 damage for 3 Atk.

 

That said:

There's no reason to compare infantry v. infantry when -blade can be on Horses. Ignoring Reinhardt for the moment (his -blade CC build is impossible for Ragnarok to replicate, given that it has comparable offenses to the very best damage builds and the counter-kill potential of the very best defense builds at once), Olwen's 30/34 offenses at +Atk is only 8 Atk/2 speed less than +Atk Linde. (Or 5 Atk, 5 Speed less than +Spd Linde).

At +6 all stats vs. +4 all stats, that's:

24 damage for -blade from buffs, 2 speed, 2 atk.

Versus 6 Atk and 5 Speed from Ragnarok, as well as 5 Atk and 5 Speed from Linde's better spread. (That said, not sure what's the point of only being fast when you're above desperation range.)

26 Atk and 2 speed vs. 11 Atk, 10 speed.

 

Or 15 Atk v. 8 spd and 1 shorter special charge cd. Killers have more or less proven that 1 less special charge cd is not worth 4 Atk, and even after subtracting 4 Atk, it's 11 atk v. 8 spd, and Atk is almost always the stronger damage stat.

 

 

Edit: And, of course, the Ragnarok user has to take a -5/-5 to offenses in order to use desperation. Reinhardt has the bulk and mobility (run and gun, run and gun!) to run Renewal Ragnarok, but Linde... doesn't.

Then again, -blade has the restriction of only being at full power when you're using the best units in the game---cavalry.

Edited July 12, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Vaximillian]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If I'm not mistaken, they use the same sprites as the regular Killer weapons.

Also, the Japanese names of the weapons are "Kill Sword Forged+" (i.e. "Killing Edge Forged+") and "Killer Bow Forged+".

First I thought the overkilling edge looked different from the ordinary killing edge, but now I almost can see that they are the same.

Why did they need to obsolete the whole category of weapons with one fell swoop?

[DehNutCase]

Just now, Vaximillian said:

First I thought the overkilling edge looked different from the ordinary killing edge, but now I almost can see that they are the same.

Why did they need to obsolete the whole category of weapons with one fell swoop?

Because killers were basically obsolete to begin with---Silvers usually sim better or comparable. 4 MT is just way too heavy of a penalty when no one runs defensive specials.

[Sunwoo]

1 minute ago, Vaximillian said:

First I thought the overkilling edge looked different from the ordinary killing edge, but now I almost can see that they are the same.

Why did they need to obsolete the whole category of weapons with one fell swoop?

Because they felt like it

[Korath88]

According to this Reddit thread, cancel affinity only negates the weapon triangle against units with gem weapons/TA and doesn't reverse it. Thoughts?

 

[Azz]

The more I look at the trailers, the more I wonder why the fuck Clive is there. I mean, it would be pretty weird for him to be a GHB. I am confused af.

[Vaximillian]

Just now, Azz said:

The more I look at the trailers, the more I wonder why the fuck Clive is there. I mean, it would be pretty weird for him to be a GHB. I am confused af.

Maybe a quest reward, like the Whitewing sisters and Draug in the past? Guess we’ll have to wait and see.

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

Because killers were basically obsolete to begin with---Silvers usually sim better or comparable. 4 MT is just way too heavy of a penalty when no one runs defensive specials.

They could have buffed the killers instead.

[Dogla]

I approve of Gray and Saber in any form or skillset, but it's nice to see the Longsword enter into the game! Also killer weapons +++ & ++++ I guess.

Delthea and Sonya: nice! Also dark prf tomes, nice reference to the black magic mechanic.

All in all, this is nice.

[DehNutCase]

Just now, Vaximillian said:

Maybe a quest reward, like the Whitewing sisters and Draug in the past? Guess we’ll have to wait and see.

They could have buffed the killers instead.

That's exactly what they're doing, though, except this way they get more money & doesn't change any units currently extant.

Even if they gave out these Killer++ swords for free, so the economics is irrelevant, I'd still probably prefer this way as a company rather than straight up buffing extant weapons. Makes for a bad precedent.

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, Korath88 said:

According to this Reddit thread, cancel affinity only negates the weapon triangle against units with gem weapons/TA and doesn't reverse it. Thoughts?

It reverses the boost from Triangle Adept, not the weapon triangle itself. I think most of us already know that. The problem is that taking 1× your opponent's Atk compared to taking 0.6× your opponent's Atk is a huge difference and basically gets you killed because this game doesn't have any viable defensive options other than Triangle Adept.

 

7 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

There's no reason to compare infantry v. infantry when -blade can be on Horses.

There's no reason to compare with cavalry when one of the options is physically impossible to have on cavalry. And in fact, it's also irrelevant to compare general infantry. Literally the only thing that's relevant is comparing Ragnarok on Celica with Raudhrblade+ on Celica because no other character has the option to equip Ragnarok.

[MPhoenix]

15 minutes ago, Korath88 said:

According to this Reddit thread, cancel affinity only negates the weapon triangle against units with gem weapons/TA and doesn't reverse it. Thoughts?

So if I bait Reinhardt with a green mage without Triangle Adept he still only deals 0.8x right?

[DehNutCase]

10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Literally the only thing that's relevant is comparing Ragnarok on Celica with Raudhrblade+ on Celica because no other character has the option to equip Ragnarok.

That would mean Ragnarok is literally worse than the 4 MT fire tome for every single character other than Celica, in which case any discussion of which tome is better is irrelevant, since, even if Ragnarok was better than -blade on Celica, it's still worse than -blade on the other 30 or so mages in the game.

I've already said I was ignoring the Prf disadvantage of being uninheritable.

 

The strength of a weapon has a lot to do with the strength of possible wielders if you argue it like that, because you're making the 'weapon' the weapon & characters it's available to rather than the weapon itself. By your logic, a 20 MT, +5 spd, +5 Atk weapon would be the worst weapon in the game if it happened to be the prf of a unit with 10/10 offenses, despite the fact that it's fucking amazing.

 

Also, by that argument, we can't even argue the 14 MT killer weapons compared to 11 MT killers right now, because no characters can currently inherit it. (Yes, they'll be inheritable in the near future, but there's no reason they can't make another Ragnarok tome.) By that argument, we can't compare Falchions vs. Rajinto because they're locked to the characters they're on.

Edit: The start of this discussion was someone saying Ragnarok is a -blade tome that didn't need buffing, implying it's superior to -blades. It's already losing in number of people who can run the weapon if we don't ignore the Prf disadvantage, and even afterwards it's performing similarly to -blade in its best case scenario, the full HP, first Atk situation, while falling steadily behind anytime:

Class buffs are in effect.

Desperation matters.

Edited July 12, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Kaden]

Is this basically Power Creep the banner? For some reason I thought the Slaying weapons would have built-in Heavy Blade as their effect since I didn't remember the wording of it or the Killing weapons' descriptions. Nope, exact same wording of special cooldown. Are you kidding me?

At least Saber introduces a skill that can make Pavise more useful and Leon might be the physically defensive -- if his special is any indication -- archer some are looking for. But seriously, what is the point of the Killer Bow and Killing Edge now? Killer Bow already has to compete with the fact that Brave and Firesweep Bows are the only main bows to use for offense with Killer Bow being a niche thing Niles and if you really want, Faye and Rebecca can use. Now, we have a version that is simply stronger. Killing Edge now has to compete with or rather, is a crap option to Wo Dao, Slaying Edge, and Mystletainn making any cavalier using Killing or Slaying Edge inferior to Eldigan. Worst sword in the game is now even worse.

I will not speak on Cancel Affinity if it works exactly as being described and explained. That skill does not need to exist. If anything, Reverse Affinity like the -reaver and I think Dual weapons would be fine because the user would still have WTD against something. But making it so T-Adept and gem weapons become neutral to you? Thank Naga that Reinhardt has a B-skill by default, so Cancel Affinity Reinhardt can't become a thing in a future Tempest Trial, but guess who doesn't have a B-skill? A bunch of other units. There's a reason why people use T-Adept and gem weapons to deal with specific units.

Great, this throws out my idea of Ruby Sword+ Selena... Oh look, a random Cherche, Hector, Merric, Sheena, and Veronica with Cancel Affinity. That ever looming fear... And while it's nice colorless units could combat -raven mages with Cancel Affinity, it's still going to piss me off fighting one with it. Takumi doesn't have a default B-skill... Cancel Affinity Takumi in a future Tempest Trials... Fun.

Also, there will be 10 playable lance cavaliers with the introduction of Berkut, Mathilda, and I see you hiding there! Clive. Axe cavaliers only have 3 playable and 2 of them have basically the same stat spread.

And a personal thing, none of them are red mages. To be expected since o don't think any of the mages would have made sense as being red outside of maybe Kliff and Delthea, but she has Dark Aura now instead of Ragnarok. I swear if I summon 2 Deltheas like summoned 2 Lindes in one summon. Delthea and Sonya are cool, but I need a different red mage or at least another Henry to make Sophia useful against green mages with high defense, but low(er) resistance.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Kaden

[Okigen]

My God look at the skill...

[DehNutCase]

6 minutes ago, Kaden said:

At least Saber introduces a skill that can make Pavise more useful and Leon might be the physically defensive -- if his special is any indication -- archer some are looking for.

Is anyone even looking for a physically defensive archer? Virion has top 5 offenses (if only barely) and 46/26 bulk. The guy's built like a brick wall.

Edit:

Also, I wouldn't worry too much about cancel affinity, it's pretty shit except versus people who use TA. (Who I don't care about because I don't like them in the first place). Costing an A-slot hurts like hell. Hector loses DC (lul), Reinhardt loses DB 3 (lul), etc. etc.

Wtf it's a B-slot skill, who balanced this!?

 

I mean, it's still pretty shit, the same level of niche as Guard---but I can see it's uses.

Edited July 12, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

By your logic, a 20 MT, +5 spd, +5 Atk weapon would be the worst weapon in the game if it happened to be the prf of a unit with 10/10 offenses, despite the fact that it's fucking amazing.

No, because it could still be compared to every other weapon of that type in the game on that character. How it fares when used by other characters is irrelevant because it can't be used by other characters, but how it fares when compared to other weapons is still possible.

The only way it would be the worst weapon in the game is if said character was physically incapable of using any other weapon, and even then it really wouldn't be because it's literally sitting in a vacuum with nothing to compare it against.

 

5 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Wtf it's a B-slot skill, who balanced this!?

This. As I was bitching about before, Reinhardt now actually has something other than Lancebreaker to run in his B slot because it lets him break through Triangle Adept greens.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[DehNutCase]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

No, because it could still be compared to every other weapon of that type in the game on that character. How it fares when used by other characters is irrelevant because it can't be used by other characters.

The only way it would be the worst weapon in the game is if said character was physically incapable of using any other weapon, and even then it really wouldn't be because it's literally sitting in a vacuum with nothing to compare it against.

Actually, I think I see what's going on here.

 

When I rank FE characters, for example for the best unit of all time in FE, I don't consider the people directly competing against them in the game. For example: Haar doesn't get worse because he's in a game with Ike, Jill, Laguz Royals etc. But Camilla also doesn't get better because she's competing vs. people 20 levels below her or something for most of the game.

That is: A character doesn't get 'better' for me just because the other options are even shittier, and a character doesn't get worse for me if it's pretty amazing despite being outclassed or simply not being the 'clear' best unit.

 

You're basically saying: Meg would be one of the best characters in fire emblem if she was in a game with 1 Meg and 99 Lyres. Far better than, say, Beruka in a game with 99 Camillas, whereas I'd still consider Beruka better due to a comparison of bases, growths, caps and mobility.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

Those new banners.

Honestly, I'm skipping Alm's party banner because I would get Mathilda but because she shares the same color as Delthea who I hate I do not want to take the chance of getting that annoying ungrateful magic wielding loli. Also Gray is another red sword like I need any more and he'll likely be available as a 4 star anyways. 

Celica's party banner I want all three of them but... I'll probably just pull for Sonya because she looks like she'll only be available as a 5 star where as the other 2 as 4 stars.