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Does FE6 have the most balanced units?


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So you all know that FE in general at some point gives broken units that can be used to finish the rest of the game rather quickly or that there's very little reason to use other units carefully stuff like that.

Now just out of curiosity, when I checked if FE6 has broken units, a lot of comments mention that its hard to decide or pick some units that they think are broken.

So in that sense, is FE6 the most balanced game because of units not being so broken? Also I'm not bashing on FE6 and all here as I'm just curious is all.

 

 

Edited by Harvey
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What the hell were you reading? Ever heard of friggin Perceval, Milady, Rutger? They might not be as broken as Sigurd or Pent but they are still amazing units and much, MUCH better than like 3/4 of the whole unit roster.

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Uhhh, no. Not even close. Just because it "doesn't have broken units"(It does. Most prepromotes and characters like Dieck could definitely be classified as "broken") doesn't mean the cast is somehow balanced. 

Just on a very basic level, mounted units are damn near as broken as they were in 4, due to FE6's hard-on for windy maps and maps that would otherwise be fine for unmounted unit having tons of obstacles and other things that slow your units down. Add on top the ridiculous rate at which you have to reach some villages before bandits destroy them, and where a few maps reward saving all villages. Like three months ago I thought Zealot was a trash unit, just a second Marcus(Who I also thought was trash) because he had garbage stats and Lance or Alan could have likely caught up to Zealot in stats. Then I replayed RE6 in these last few months, and the extra move he has more or less completely negates his awful stats. Once you get to Percival and Miledy, it's pretty much lights out until the end of the game. 

On more specific units, look at Dieck and Ogier and tell me there's any balance there. I enjoy using Ogier just for variety, but there's absolutely no reason to use him instead of Dieck. And these are your two Mercs for the whole game. Echidna gets some use once she shows up, but Dieck will completely outclassed her even before he promotes. 

Swordmasters run wild with their insane crit rates, and even in an extreme case of giving them a Killing Edge and tossing them in an horde of enemies ensures that they'll likely kill every single thing that comes at them. Their squishiness can be a problem, but the hit rates in the game give them added security. 

Axe units are damn near worthless, and any one that isn't a Berserker with a Killer Axe is a wasted unit. An ENTIRE category of weapons is borderline worthless. 

The game has horrible balance issues. 

 

On 7/14/2017 at 3:25 AM, Harvey said:

I didn't get the idea of it...

 

The former group eclipses 90% of your other units. The latter two are borderline worthless. 

There's no balance. 

Edited by Slumber
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2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Like three months ago I thought Noah was a trash unit, just a second Marcus(Who I also thought was trash) because he had garbage stats and Lance or Alan could have likely caught up to Noah in stats. Then I replayed RE6 in these last few months, and the extra move he has more or less completely negates his awful stats. 

 

I'm curious, did you mean Zealot or is there some hidden strength in Noah that I wasn't aware of?

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3 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

I'm curious, did you mean Zealot or is there some hidden strength in Noah that I wasn't aware of?

Derp, Zealot. I got him and his lackey mixed up. I thought it looked wrong when I was typing it, and I pictured the map where you recruit Zealot, Noah and Treck and thought "Hm, you definitely get Noah that chapter."

It's late. 

Edited by Slumber
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1 hour ago, Enaluxeme said:

But then, what is the game with the most balanced units? I'm gonna go with FE7. Thoughts?

Awakening.

 

I think.

 

Then again everyone in it is broken (or so I've heard), so maybe not...?

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No way. On one side, you have Rutger, Percival, and Miledy who are obviously busted. On the other, you have Gwendolyn and Sophia, as well as all the infantry axe users, all of whom are useless, and even borderline, if not outright, unusable. Need I say more?

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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2 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Awakening.

 

I think.

 

Then again everyone in it is broken (or so I've heard), so maybe not...?

Not really because some non-child units don't have access to some good skill combos and they all have lower maximum stats then children.

Like, stats alone aren't a big deal, but without the right skills some units are just completely worse than others.

 

So, let's see:

  • Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light + Shadow Dragon: haha, no. Just look at Cain and Abel compared to every other Cavalier. Units coming later usually have nothing going for them.
  • Gaiden + Shadow of Valentia: this is probably it thanks to how class bases work. Movement kills Barons and Sages but that's about it.
  • Mystery + New Mystery: Mystery has the shards saying F*** YOU to all tier lists, but otherwise some characters are clearly better than others. New Mystery is probably better except for the avatar being leagues above everyone else.
  • Genealogy of the Holy War: you can and should make everyone work, but units that re not mounted and have no holy blood are just doomed, and those that have both are kings.
  • Thracia: never played, but PCC and Leader Stars are a thing. Otherwise, scrolls and low caps make everyone's stats good.
  • Binding Blade: good and simple, but...
  • Blazing Sword: I feel this is just like Binding Blade, but better. Marcus might be slightly OP. Renault is probably the only bad unit.
  • Sacred Stones: Seth. Seth what are you doing leave something for the rest of us.
  • Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn: Exp base and Skill Scrolls make everyone usable.
  • Awakening: almost everyone is OP, but children are even more.
  • Fates: never played. Probably like Awakening, but toned down. However, some personal skills are better than others.

I would say that Gaiden, SoV and Blazing Sword are the best ones in terms of unit balance.

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1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Uhhh, no. Not even close. Just because it "doesn't have broken units"(It does. Most prepromotes and characters like Dieck could definitely be classified as "broken") doesn't mean the cast is somehow balanced. 

If it has broken units, then how come none of them can solo chapters?

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Just on a very basic level, mounted units are damn near as broken as they were in 4, due to FE6's hard-on for windy maps and maps that would otherwise be fine for unmounted unit having tons of obstacles and other things that slow your units down. Add on top the ridiculous rate at which you have to reach some villages before bandits destroy them, and where a few maps reward saving all villages.

How is the map design part of unit balance? Even if the mounted units are so broken like Sigurd, I doubt it would have made some of those fetch quests any easier.

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

On more specific units, look at Dieck and Ogier and tell me there's any balance there. I enjoy using Ogier just for variety, but there's absolutely no reason to use him instead of Dieck. And these are your two Mercs for the whole game. Echidna gets some use once she shows up, but Dieck will completely outclassed her even before he promotes. 

If I recall, Ogier has good growth rates and the idea of having units weak at first is so when you train them, they will eventually get better..I mean isn't that how most FE games work?

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Axe units are damn near worthless, and any one that isn't a Berserker with a Killer Axe is a wasted unit. An ENTIRE category of weapons is borderline worthless

I don't think the weapons alone are the main issue since they have good might and decent hit rates. I think it has to do with the skill growth being low for those units that have low skill...

1 hour ago, Enaluxeme said:

But then, what is the game with the most balanced units? I'm gonna go with FE7. Thoughts?

I was thinking that Fates had the most balanced units....but then when looking at Camilla and Ryoma...nah.

 

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15 minutes ago, Harvey said:

If I recall, Ogier has good growth rates and the idea of having units weak at first is so when you train them, they will eventually get better..I mean isn't that how most FE games work?

I'd honestly say the purpose of that is defeated when one unit clearly takes more work to get up to snuff, only to fail to outclass the other by a notable margin.

15 minutes ago, Harvey said:

How is the map design part of unit balance? Even if the mounted units are so broken like Sigurd, I doubt it would have made some of those fetch quests any easier.

That's pretty obvious if you think about it - mounts can easily see more combat.

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24 minutes ago, Enaluxeme said:
  • Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light + Shadow Dragon: haha, no. Just look at Cain and Abel compared to every other Cavalier. Units coming later usually have nothing going for them.
  • Gaiden + Shadow of Valentia: this is probably it thanks to how class bases work. Movement kills Barons and Sages but that's about it.
  • Mystery + New Mystery: Mystery has the shards saying F*** YOU to all tier lists, but otherwise some characters are clearly better than others. New Mystery is probably better except for the avatar being leagues above everyone else.
  • Genealogy of the Holy War: you can and should make everyone work, but units that re not mounted and have no holy blood are just doomed, and those that have both are kings.
  • Thracia: never played, but PCC and Leader Stars are a thing. Otherwise, scrolls and low caps make everyone's stats good.
  • Binding Blade: good and simple, but...
  • Blazing Sword: I feel this is just like Binding Blade, but better. Marcus might be slightly OP. Renault is probably the only bad unit.
  • Sacred Stones: Seth. Seth what are you doing leave something for the rest of us.
  • Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn: Exp base and Skill Scrolls make everyone usable.
  • Awakening: almost everyone is OP, but children are even more.
  • Fates: never played. Probably like Awakening, but toned down. However, some personal skills are better than others.

I mostly agree with this as far as I've played the games, would like to add a bit though:

PoR and RD's unit balance is vastly different thanks to availability being much more of a factor in RD - point in case, Tormod, Vika and Muarim when they rejoin in pt.4. BEXP also seems to be much more scarce in RD, at least for the Dawn Brigade, so that using Fiona is much more of a hassle than using Rolf in PoR.

It's also apparent that the designers' balancing goals have changed over time, whether or not they have succeeded. FE6's prepromotes, for example, are usually good for a limited time, like Marcus for the first third of the game or so, or Echidna and Bartre who will also get eclipsed sooner or later. Compare that to PoR, where every low-leveled unit can be brought up to snuff nearly instantly and high-leveled recruits (with the big exception of Titania) aren't that much ahead on the XP curve, but don't have lower averages than the other units, either. In my opinion, neither approach is better than the other per se - it's nice that the player can bench or field whoever in PoR without the game punishing him for sub-par choices, but the downside is that PoR's units feel a bit same-y in terms of gameplay. FE6's units seem more unique to me, but sometimes they're unique in that they're "the worst cavalier" or just "the worst" with little redeeming qualities.

About the original question of the thread: I'd say that the enemies in FE6 are balanced pretty well, especially on hard mode. They're threatening, so you have to think ahead and cannot just charge ahead, but the game usually doesn't force you into luck-based situations. (well, there's always the possibility of two 90s missing in a row or something like that, but that's RNG for you)

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1 hour ago, Enaluxeme said:

Thracia: never played, but PCC and Leader Stars are a thing. Otherwise, scrolls and low caps make everyone's stats good.

Iirc this game also has the weakest enemies in the entire series. But what makes it difficult is the map design and different mechanics.

And speaking of mechanics, does Fatigue help in balancing the game or something?

 

1 hour ago, Enaluxeme said:

Sacred Stones: Seth. Seth what are you doing leave something for the rest of us.

 Tbh he is a prepromote, and unless this is someone's first Fire Emblem, they'd probably avoid using Seth for quite a while so the other units could become better.

 

1 hour ago, Enaluxeme said:

Awakening: almost everyone is OP, but children are even more.

I also always hear that Galeforce is a really good skill, so I guess any character that would have that skill would be instantly OP.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Iirc this game also has the weakest enemies in the entire series. But what makes it difficult is the map design and different mechanics.

And speaking of mechanics, does Fatigue help in balancing the game or something?

Not the way it was probably intended and not really, in my opinion.

Leif is immune but that is obvious. Still, that is one immune unit you can use somewhere. Benching your core unit for one chapter is no big deal and later you can potentially get enough S-drinks for people you super want. Also, units with good HP stay with good HP so they will be usually always viable. I think Fatigue in FE5 only really works in the first chapters and then there are enough ways to go around it.

Maybe someone else has a better input though...

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1 hour ago, ping said:

About the original question of the thread: I'd say that the enemies in FE6 are balanced pretty well, especially on hard mode. They're threatening, so you have to think ahead and cannot just charge ahead, but the game usually doesn't force you into luck-based situations. (well, there's always the possibility of two 90s missing in a row or something like that, but that's RNG for you)

If the game is solely based on luck, how can it not force you into luck-based situations? 

Sure placing units carefully, thinking carefully about weapon usage and buying items isn't luck based but when dealing with enemies, it kinda IS luck based since RNG technically deals with hit rates and crts which have chances and which is luck...

 

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I feel that FE6 overall has something of an "alright" balance. There are clearly units who are better than others, but there are still plenty of units to use that have a lot of pros and cons, and there can be argument in favor of some. It's not perfect, but it is what it is.

I feel the best balanced is probably Blazing Blade, but actually for the wrong reasons. Basically everyone can be used with a solid argument, (aside from Nino and Renault as far as I can tell) but that's mainly because the enemies are so weak in comparison that really, anyone can almost solo certain maps. (i.e. Unfulfilled Heart, Cog of Destiny (normal mode anyway)) I'm not saying there isn't a balance, quite the opposite in fact, there's too much of a balance, everyone's so on equal footing that I find it kinda dull. It's one of my personal gripes with the game.

I feel PoR comes close though.

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51 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

I also always hear that Galeforce is a really good skill, so I guess any character that would have that skill would be instantly OP.

That would be true... In the postgame, that is. In the main game? Galeforce is likely coming too late to get any mileage out of.

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Problem is Ogier does not have particularly good growths, just look them up. His only noteworthy growth is his 45% Spd and he does have a 4 points lead in speed over Dieck at 20/20 but not only you will have to show against which relevant enemies this will be useful, I would even say that this lead is almost always irrelevant due to Dieck's much better Con (13 vs 8) which lets him use the Brave Sword, Durandal and all Blades with no speed penalty and better accuracy thanks to his better skill base and growth. In short Ogier (as much as I too may like him) is upon recruitment a worse unit than Dieck and even if both are trained he will not end up any better. And this is bad unit balance: why have two units with the same role and very similar stats join in different chapters with the unit joining later starting out worse than its colleague? There is literally no reason whatsoever to bother with Ogier in any kind of even remotely efficient run.

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

I don't think the weapons alone are the main issue since they have good might and decent hit rates. I think it has to do with the skill growth being low for those units that have low skill...

Are we playing the same game? The one where EVERY axe (safe for the Iron and Killer versions) has 55 hit or less?! Bad weapon hit rates ARE the main cause of FE6's hit rate issues.

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43 minutes ago, Koumal8 said:

Are we playing the same game? The one where EVERY axe (safe for the Iron and Killer versions) has 55 hit or less?! Bad weapon hit rates ARE the main cause of FE6's hit rate issues.

Don't forget lances. They're not as bad as axes, but they also have lower hit rates. Which is why swords users are considered the better units in this game.

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1 hour ago, Harvey said:

If the game is solely based on luck, how can it not force you into luck-based situations? 

Sure placing units carefully, thinking carefully about weapon usage and buying items isn't luck based but when dealing with enemies, it kinda IS luck based since RNG technically deals with hit rates and crts which have chances and which is luck...

Sure, but it's still up to the player's skill how much he is fucked by an unlucky miss or crit. The player can walk into luck-reliant enemy phases by mistake or consciously (for example at the start of the chapter when resetting isn't as big a deal), but the game usually doesn't force those situations on the player. Most of the time, it's possible to keep it reliable to at least not lose a unit by a bad roll, if not to 100%, then at least well above 90%.

1 hour ago, Great Dane said:

I feel the best balanced is probably Blazing Blade, but actually for the wrong reasons. Basically everyone can be used with a solid argument, (aside from Nino and Renault as far as I can tell) but that's mainly because the enemies are so weak in comparison that really, anyone can almost solo certain maps. (i.e. Unfulfilled Heart, Cog of Destiny (normal mode anyway)) I'm not saying there isn't a balance, quite the opposite in fact, there's too much of a balance, everyone's so on equal footing that I find it kinda dull. It's one of my personal gripes with the game.

In Nino's case, I've often read that she's quite valuable in ranked runs because the XP rank is one of the harder ones to achieve. For Renault, I got nothing, though. Your personal gripe with Blazing Blade is mine with Path of Radiance, although I haven't done a Maniac run yet. ;)

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3 hours ago, Harvey said:

If it has broken units, then how come none of them can solo chapters?

Depends on the objective. They totally can solo rout or sieze maps, but even some of those maps don't allow for that (village placement is too tricky and you need to get to them first, reinforcements spawn from shitty points, etc) and the enemies can get pretty strong in FE6. The other issue is Roy is pretty damn bad, so you'll have to always keep an eye on him and make sure he doesn't get himself killed.

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23 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Don't forget lances. They're not as bad as axes, but they also have lower hit rates. Which is why swords users are considered the better units in this game.

Little addendum that I wanted to edit in, but Darros posted in between: ;)

Axes and lances are definitely worse to be locked into than swords, but they're still great to have as additional weapons. Against a lance or sword user, an iron lance has +3 might and -5 hit compared to a iron sword (basically as strong, but more accurate than a steel sword), and an iron axe is as accurate, but significantly stronger (+5 might) than an iron sword against a lance user. So while the weapon lock hits knights and axe dudes harder than myrms and mercs, heroes (who also appreciate the 1-2 range of the hand axe) and cavaliers/paladins get quite a bit out of their weapon triangle control.

Also, all the flyers have at least reasonable combat abilities despite being lancelocked until promotion.

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Unitwise: No because a few units like Wendy and Sophia join at level 1 in midgame.

Gameplaywise: Big no. Sword outclasses all other physcial weapons and magic is much better than bow as range weapon.

I think only the Akaneia games disqualify more units than FE6 does. Knights and axe users aside of Lot in the beginning aren't usable practically.
Even Meg and Fiona are more usable in FE10 HM than Wendy or Sophia in FE6 HM.

The only thing about FE6 which is balanced, are the growthrates, but definitely not the usage of the units.

Edited by Reimu Hakurei
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