Does FE6 have the most balanced units?

[Harvey]

20 minutes ago, ping said:

Sure, but it's still up to the player's skill how much he is fucked by an unlucky miss or crit. The player can walk into luck-reliant enemy phases by mistake or consciously (for example at the start of the chapter when resetting isn't as big a deal), but the game usually doesn't force those situations on the player. Most of the time, it's possible to keep it reliable to at least not lose a unit by a bad roll, if not to 100%, then at least well above 90%

I'm still not able to catch your drift here.... How can the game not force those situations on the player if the game is dependent on luck? How can a typical casual player be aware that this enemy unit has a crit chance if the player can't even drag the unit all the way to the enemy unit to find out?

 

[Darros]

Viewing the enemy's stats and weapons will usually give you a solid indication (I don't remember if FE6 displays your attack stats or not actually). Plus you know by your own units luck stat how resistant they are to getting critted, in a sense.

[Harvey]

4 minutes ago, Darros said:

Viewing the enemy's stats and weapons will usually give you a solid indication (I don't remember if FE6 displays your attack stats or not actually). Plus you know by your own units luck stat how resistant they are to getting critted, in a sense.

Ok..so what about those that can't seem to know basic math and just not do much about it? I for one..still for the life of me still can't figure out what does what. I'm having a hard time understanding how archers in echoes can attack at five range...that chapter with arches took like forever to beat and honestly if it weren't for Valbar, I honestly would've been a bit frustrated in that chapter.

 

[Darros]

6 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Ok..so what about those that can't seem to know basic math and just not do much about it? I for one..still for the life of me still can't figure out what does what. I'm having a hard time understanding how archers in echoes can attack at five range...that chapter with arches took like forever to beat and honestly if it weren't for Valbar, I honestly would've been a bit frustrated in that chapter.

Not sure. Basic math seems to be a bit of a requirement to play FE tbh. But I mean you can still go by inventory: enemies with Killer weapons probably will have some chance of a critical against you. And if the crit is displayed (I really should check this.) all you need to do is have higher luck than the enemy has crit. It's not super intense math. Or really math at all if it's just comparing numbers.

 

EDIT: found the displayed crit.

At the bottom of the screen where it says "Equipment" - the crit is displayed there. If that number is higher than a player characters luck, there will be a chance that the enemy can crit you.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Darros

[Von Ithipathachai]

Just now, Reimu Hakurei said:

Knights and axe users aside of Lot in the beginning aren't usable practically.

Funny you should say that, Lot ended up being the most difficult axe user for me to use in the early game.  I think I was able to get more use out of Wade, though he still wasn't particularly good either.

Meanwhile, my Bors got some lucky Defense procs and eventually ended up being very useful at endgame.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Wade doesn't have enough base speed to double knights.
And combined with his awful speed growth he'll get doubled very soon, at the latest in chapter 4.

Lot has very balanced growths at cost of his strength. He's definitely not the strongest fighter in the world, but he can tank a bit at least unlike most other units in earlygame.
I even used him till the end in a few runs. He's even the best fighter in the GBA series for me simply because of his bases.

[Darros]

If you don't account for missing Echidna, isn't Bartre usually pretty feasible?

(Serious question. As if I'd miss Echidna.)

[ping]

He's alright. Basically Wade autoleved to 20/1, which means he has a strong chip with a bow, can punch lance users really hard, and tank a hit or three thanks to his base 48 HP. But just as Wade (seriously, their stats are really similar), he's too slow to stay really useful until the end. His skill is rather shaky too, so it's good that he can wield bows, but not so good that he can't wield killers (or even the brave bow) at base. I guess you could even bring him to ch.21 to take some shots against the wyverns, but Igrene and even Klein at */1 should be better choices due to weapon rank and higher speed.

[Interdimensional Observer]

5 hours ago, Enaluxeme said:

• Fates: never played. Probably like Awakening, but toned down. However, some personal skills are better than others.

 

Depends on which version of Fates you want to talk about. Personal skills never make a unit by the way, they're only the cherries atop a sundae.

Spoiler

Conquest is considered pretty balanced overall. Like any FE you still have clear inequalities- Camilla being quite broken for her joining time, and remaining incredibly useful even once big brother Xander takes the center stage with his Siegfried. You also have weaklings like Odin (some insist he destroys the game with Nosferatu- I very much disagree, though I myself had a blessed (aka not average and thus not arguable) one once on Hard who did in fact Nostank) and Nyx. But nobody is utter crap or impossible to catch up. And CQ's maps are nearly impossible to normally solo, you need good strategy and unit variety to win out (on Hard and Lunatic at least). For instance, the physical tank that is Xander wilts vs. magic, and can also be taken down easily if you're not careful against enemies with things like: Poison Strike, Seal Defense, Shurikens, Inevitable End, and Hexing Rods, all of which either cripple or bypass his great Defense and HP.

 

Birthright is much more balanced Awakening but not as much as Conquest, everyone is usable without anywhere near Fiona/Wendy/Sophia/Amelia/Ewan levels of babying. Yet again though, there is a noticeable rift between some units- Subaki is utterly destroyed by Hinoka stat-wise and she joins only slightly later; Hinata is a eunuch, only in the slightest more durable than Ryoma, and totally behind both him and Hana in offense. Ryoma by the way is capable of soloing BR once he joins- though it does require a certain amount of luck, as he has to dodgetank to live and Fates uses a single RN for sub-50 hit rates, making dodgetanking less viable than from 6-13. Ryoma also loathes mixed groups of Lances and Axes- because he can only get WTA against one via Rajinto or a Dual Katana, while the other has a scarily better chance of perforating him. Swords too can be a little too accurate for his likings on Lunatic. This said, I've had him solo halves of maps even on Lunatic while everyone else handles the rest plenty of times before- which is by itself pretty broken.

 

Revelation has no balance. There is no debate to be had about this. There are clear signs that IS didn't remotely consider balancing this game- what else explains a level 9 Dark Mage Nyx joining in the same chapter as a level 10 Adventurer (a promoted class) Shura? Nyx is not in the slightest an Est, and Shura's bases are good enough to last him into the final chapters. Mind you after the next two chapters (which are back-to-back no saving between, so it's really like one two-part battle), all the enemies are henceforth promoted.

In the said two back-to-back battles, Xander and Ryoma join up, and yet again Ryoma owns anything that can't touch him, and Xander owns anything not magical (CQ's evil enemy skill placement and the Hexing Rod don't exist on Revelation by the way). Heck, Xander (with a DS partner and ideally a Concoction passed to him) can sit on a Fort and trash half of his joining map even on Lunatic. Royalty like Xander and Ryoma and their six siblings (including the yet again incredible Camilla) can also use Dragon Veins- which is extremely useful on Rev. due to the designs of the maps to come. There are a couple handfuls of units viable without heavy babying on Rev., but most of the cast struggles outside of Normal due to how weak they join and how strong the enemies are.

 

5 hours ago, Harvey said:

How is the map design part of unit balance? Even if the mounted units are so broken like Sigurd, I doubt it would have made some of those fetch quests any easier.

Large maps = movement matters more. Smaller maps = movement matters less. Things like beating thieves to chests and bandits to villages is easier when you have more move to get there faster. Binding Blade also puts you on a time limit to unlock Gaiden chapters and with them the true ending, while Blazing does the same sometimes and Tellius gives you BEXP for clearing battles within turn limits. All of this, mounted units give you more leeway on, so as long as their combat isn't meaningfully worse than that of foot units, and every FE gives you at least a few awesome mounties so that isn't a problem. And it isn't like you have to use all your move on a given turn just because you have more, you can use less if you want to.

Enemy density also matters. The more enemies there are, the harder it is to wipe out a bunch and be "safe" when the enemy phase rolls around, thus the being able to fight on the enemy phase matters more. Wide open maps also favor the enemy phase because it becomes more difficult to play defensively via chokepoints and pick off enemies one by one on the player phase. Thus, PCs with weak enemy phase, like Archers and fragile Mages, lose value.

Terrain too matters. Path of Radiance overall has smaller maps than Binding, but fliers find themselves with a unique advantage in a number of chapters. Really shows this on Celica's Acts 3 and 4.

Sigurd wouldn't have been broken if he wasn't mounted by the way. Yet just as important are: his possession of Pursuit, awesome bases, average to good growths for FE4 Gen 1, and a powerful weapon from nearly the get go in the Silver Sword, which he pretty much deserves b/c the rest of his competition has some significant issue which explains why they don't deserve it so much. When all of these factors are combined, we get Sigod.

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, Enaluxeme said:

Genealogy of the Holy War: you can and should make everyone work, but units that re not mounted and have no holy blood are just doomed, and those that have both are kings.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Pursuit. Or the utter lack of balance between weapon types.

[Enaluxeme]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'm surprised you didn't mention Pursuit. Or the utter lack of balance between weapon types.

It's easy to get pursuit on everyone in gen 2, and with enough speed continue+charge is reliable enough. Also, brave weapons and pursuit ring exist.

Since you only have a single dedicated axe unit per generation, he can just keep the brave axe for himself. Some people give it to Leif, but he doesn't need it.

[Flee Fleet!]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Or the utter lack of balance between weapon types.

Only axes really suck, and are heavy as heck, while lances are actually fine enough.

And in the case of axes, well, in Gen 1 you can get the Brave Axe, which makes the only axe unit (Lex) more better at fighting. But then again, a first time player of FE4 could miss out on it.

[Shadow Mir]

19 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Only axes really suck, and are heavy as heck, while lances are actually fine enough.

And in the case of axes, well, in Gen 1 you can get the Brave Axe, which makes the only axe unit (Lex) more better at fighting. But then again, a first time player of FE4 could miss out on it.

There's also the part where fire magic doesn't have the advantage over wind that it should because it's just that heavy.

3 hours ago, Enaluxeme said:

It's easy to get pursuit on everyone in gen 2, and with enough speed continue+charge is reliable enough. Also, brave weapons and pursuit ring exist.

Since you only have a single dedicated axe unit per generation, he can just keep the brave axe for himself. Some people give it to Leif, but he doesn't need it.

Charge has a chance to bite you in the ass, and the Pursuit Ring is easy to miss, at least for a first time player.

[Flee Fleet!]

26 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

There's also the part where fire magic doesn't have the advantage over wind that it should because it's just that heavy.

Oh yeah, that too. Wind magic is obviously the best one for being so light weighted compared to the heavy fire tomes. And I really don't get why they made them that heavy. Not to mention that mages like Azel instantly become more better at fighting if they don't use a fire tome, and go for some other. Maybe they wanted an "axe equivalent" in the magic triangle?

At least thunder tomes are good enough.

 

31 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

the Pursuit Ring is easy to miss, at least for a first time player.

And the fact that Arden, of all units, gets to find it. Pretty sure a first timer would not use Arden much cuz of his movement.

[Slumber]

Thunder tomes get the innate crit bonus, so their extra weight is a bit easier to swallow. Fire tomes get nothing.

[Just call me AL]

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Thunder tomes get the innate crit bonus, so their extra weight is a bit easier to swallow. Fire tomes get nothing.

Last I checked, crits didn't work that way in FE4. It was either via personal skills, kill count on weapons, Killer Bow, Mystletainn, sibling bonuses, or marriage bonuses.

[Slumber]

4 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

Last I checked, crits didn't work that way in FE4. It was either via personal skills, kill count on weapons, Killer Bow, Mystletainn, sibling bonuses, or marriage bonuses.

Oh right, Tailtyu has Wrath.

I was gonna say "But how come Tailtyu always seemed to crit with Thoron", and I ended up answering my own question. Thunder magic is just way less heavy than Fire magic. Heavier than Wind, but still usable.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Slumber

[Jedi]

To answer the OP no, as much as I love FE6, balance is definitely not something I can state it has, even half-heartedly. 

Normal mode allows pretty much everyone to be used (even then some need babying), however the clear gaps in ability are really really obvious.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Jedi

[Harvey]

On 7/15/2017 at 4:35 AM, Jedi said:

To answer the OP no, as much as I love FE6, balance is definitely not something I can state it has, even half-heartedly. 

Normal mode allows pretty much everyone to be used (even then some need babying), however the clear gaps in ability are really really obvious.

Not sure if I can agree with this....especially when the game gives you horrible units like Juno...

 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Harvey

[Just call me AL]

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

Not sure if I can agree with this....especially when the game gives you horrible units like Juno...

Juno can at least be used as a makeshift taxi for someone like Roy. She may be bad, but she has easily more uses than the worst unit in the game.

[Irysa]

I can't really be arsed to read the whole topic (bite me) but I'm just gonna chip in and say that even the most busted units in this game have meaningful weaknesses, which is a better metric to consider game "balance" by rather than comparing the cast members relatively, because all units can be boiled down to being tools in a toolbox you have, and the combined functionality of your options against what the game is trying to confront you with is ultimately what the game is about, and thus where the real strategy lies.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Irysa

[Flee Fleet!]

Just a question, but when talking about balanced units in Fire Emblem, should we just not consider Ests at all? (and I mean real Ests, like Est herself, Zeiss, Nino, and not "Ests" like Sophia who still remain pretty useless despite training).

Ests are made to be weak, and to come lategame, but with really good growths, after all. There's going to be at least one of them in a Fire Emblem game.

 

On 7/15/2017 at 3:56 AM, Slumber said:

Thunder magic is just way less heavy than Fire magic. Heavier than Wind, but still usable

iirc, the weight of the least heavy tomes (of all three magic types), which are Fire, Thunder, and Wind, are 11, 7, and 4, respectively. Those are quite the difference in numbers, and pretty much the weight of all Fire tomes is in the tens.

Wind is so OP....

Edited July 18, 2017 by Flee Fleet!

[Slumber]

8 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Just a question, but when talking about balanced units in Fire Emblem, should we just not consider Ests at all? (and I mean real Ests, like Est herself, Zeiss, Nino, and not "Ests" like Sophia who still remain pretty useless despite training).

Ests are made to be weak, and to come lategame, but with really good growths, after all. There's going to be at least one of them in a Fire Emblem game.

 

iirc, the weight of the least heavy tomes (of all three magic types), which are Fire, Thunder, and Wind, are 11, 7, and 4, respectively. Those are quite the difference in numbers, and pretty much the weight of all Fire tomes is in the tens.

Wind is so OP....

You could dual wield Thunder AND Wind, and you'd be matching what Fire wielder have to put up with. 

But yes, wind is super OP. Genealogy devs were smokin' something when they decided to make swords and wind flat out better than the other weapon types. 

[Flee Fleet!]

40 minutes ago, Slumber said:

But yes, wind is super OP. Genealogy devs were smokin' something when they decided to make swords and wind flat out better than the other weapon types. 

At least in the case of axes, Kaga just hated them, and that ultimately resulted in them becoming the worst weapon type.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Honestly I find lances even worse in FE6.
Axes are somewhat reliable against knights and the slow peggies while lances have only advantage against the fast classes, myrms and mercs, who have high evasion anyways.