Where would Fire Emblem be if Shouzou Kaga didn't leave IS?

[Armagon]

For those who don't know, Shouzou Kaga was the creator of Fire Emblem. He's responsible for the first five Fire Emblem games. After Thracia 776, Kaga left Intelligent Systems and founded his own company, Tirnanog. The first game he made in that company, was TearRing Saga. The TearRing Saga series bore striking resemblance to Fire Emblem, and so Nintendo sued. While TearRing Saga was decleared to not be in violation of copyright, the lawsuit seemed to have affected Tirnanog, as their last game was the second TearRing Saga game, Berwick Saga. And then in 2016, Kaga made his own game, which is free for purchase, called Vestaria Saga.

Even though Kaga left after Thracia 776, the Fire Emblem series still continued to where it is today. But in an alternate timeline, Kaga never left Intelligent System. With that scenario in mind, how would Fire Emblem be like if Kaga was still on the team? Would the series have died? Would the series have been popular like it is today? Would it be a niche series? And how about the games themselves? Do you still think we would've gotten Fire Emblem 6 through 15 , in the way that we know them? Would the spin-off titles have existed? Let me know what you think.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Armagon

[Etrurian emperor]

I suspect Fire emblem is a series where the creator leaving didn't matter a big deal. There wasn't a big shift in identity, quality or gameplay as far as I'm concerned. As such I don't think Kaga staying or leaving would have resulted in a different outcome. 

[Anacybele]

I feel like it would still be a niche series, but we'd have generally better games that sell well enough to keep the series alive. No horribly written Avatars and marriage systems, as Kaga doesn't seem to be interested in that what with how he's never done them for his Saga games, but quality games that make enough money.

Basically, it wouldn't be the titan it is now, but it wouldn't be dead either.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Anacybele

[Slumber]

40 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

marriage systems, as Kaga doesn't seem to be interested in that

Kaga came up with the very first marriage system in the franchise, though.

It's difficult to see where the FE franchise would be with Kaga still heading it. I imagine it likely wouldn't have headed to the GBA, which would have been a blow to the franchise, since the only alternative was the GameCube at the time, which... well, GameCube wasn't a great system for anything but the biggest heavy hitters.

[Anacybele]

Just now, Slumber said:

Kaga came up with the very first marriage system in the franchise, though.

It's difficult to see where the FE franchise would be with Kaga still heading it. I imagine it likely wouldn't have headed to the GBA, which would have been a blow to the franchise, since the only alternative was the GameCube at the time, which... well, GameCube wasn't a great system for anything but the biggest heavy hitters.

But he hasn't done it since, so he obviously didn't like the idea enough to reuse it.

[Slumber]

Just now, Anacybele said:

But he hasn't done it since, so he obviously didn't like the idea enough to reuse it.

He probably didn't do it afterwards because none of his projects after FE4 had been as... "grand" as FE4 was. FE4 was just a completely different scale. Maybe that burnt him out on that kind of style, but I doubt he'd never come back to the idea if he kept making games of that scale.

But who knows. It seems like the FE5 format was the format he liked, since that's largely what his Saga games look and play like.

I can tell you though, if Kaga stayed with the franchise, mount/unmount would have stayed, and that would have been for the better.

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

He probably didn't do it afterwards because none of his projects after FE4 had been as... "grand" as FE4 was. FE4 was just a completely different scale. Maybe that burnt him out on that kind of style, but I doubt he'd never come back to the idea if he kept making games of that scale.

But who knows. It seems like the FE5 format was the format he liked, since that's largely what his Saga games look and play like.

I can tell you though, if Kaga stayed with the franchise, mount/unmount would have stayed, and that would have been for the better.

Yeah, maybe. Who knows...

[X-Naut]

There would probably be a bit more gameplay diversity in the GBA period. I know Kaga had a thing for making each game feel unique, and the GBA games barely arguably have the least innovation between them. The 3DS games have been better than prior periods with this, and even though one remakes an existing Kaga game they added new mechanics to make it feel fresh.

[CT075]

everything would be the same, except all axes in all the games would have 40 weight and 50 hit, except for one or two prf axes that are completely busted

[Von Ithipathachai]

Maybe if Kaga stayed we could've gotten Fire Emblem 64?

I dunno.

[Ronnie]

Dead

Fire Emblem probably would've stayed on the same course except Fates would only have Team A and Team B would be thrown off the window.

[Interdimensional Observer]

5 minutes ago, CT075 said:

everything would be the same, except all axes in all the games would have 40 weight and 50 hit, except for one or two prf axes that are completely busted

Well it looks like he got a little better with this once he left IS, Berwick at least isn't too bad for Axes. But Kaga dumped the weapon triangle from his Saga games, so his deemphasis on axes doesn't create any problems from a gameplay perspective.

 

As for what would have become of FE, there probably wouldn't have been the GBA "return to simplicity", but I think it's near impossible to predict anything beyond that era.

 

By the way, has Kaga given any update on Vestaria Saga Part 2 yet? And what of fans translating Berwick, and anything of a translation of Vestaria (I know it'd be illegal to mess with SRPG Maker to insert an translation, but is anyone at least doing a translation, if not the actual creation of a patch)?

[MCProductions]

Having played all the TRS games, as well as being knowledgeable about the plots of those games as well as some of the hidden shit inside their guts, I can say with confidence the Tellius games wouldn't be much different at all.

This portrait is left unused in TRS's files. Does she look familiar? Yeah, it's Elincia. And thanks to various translations from the Berwick Saga fan translation team, Sanaki appears to have been a Kaga concept too, going off the fact that game has a character in it's backstory named the "Apostle Sanacia", so Tellius at the very least wouldn't be much different, at least from what I've seen regarding both the TRS games as a series and Tellius. Elibe prolly wouldn't have changed much either, but that's more due to how FE6 and TRS 1 grew up together and shared development cycles for some time.

3DS FE, I have no clue how that would've turned out, prolly not that different cause hey, Awakening had to sell out for a reason, tho Fates, given Kaga's habit of changing the formula between games as well as him actually giving a shit about the story would have been very different in the end.

[omegaxis1]

If Kaga never left... it'd be tough to understand if things would have been better or for worse. 

My belief is that Kaga would have continued to create new continents in the same world. If you noticed, Jugdral was the LAST continent that was made in the same verse, and then the new continents: Elibe, Magvel, and Tellius, and Fateslandia are all continents that exist in a separate universe.

He would have tried to connect lores of the series. Likely Duma and Mila would have been true gods, but have some connection with Naga. He would have gone deeper into the degeneration of the dragons possibly. 

I have little doubt that Kaga has great talent for giving great stories. However, I think he might be a little harsh on the gameplay. Maybe he could have been told to lighten up on the load, or he would have continued to being nintendo hard on us all.

[Azz]

TBH, I don't know. All I know is we wouldn't be where we are today.

I will always stand by my belief that Kaga leaving was the best thing for FE. We would never have gotten a series that is so well known today. It would still be extremely niche and far from popular. For all we know, it could have been dead by now. I mean look at the Saga games. While amazing game, don't get me wrong, they are extremely niche. I mean, when was the last time we got an update on Vestaria. I fear that if Kaga stayed, this is what FE would have eventually become.

But maybe I;m wrong and if Kaga did stay, we would have gotten games 10x better than the ones we have now. We'll never know.

[Malik]

If kaga stayed they will be more tactics and gameplay than fan service and marriage .if he stayed I don't think the series would have died but there would be less fans am sure about it. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Kaga's idea of a "for the fans" experience was Thracia 776. So no, I don't think there would still be Fire Emblem in 2017.

Okay fine, there's no way to know that. But come on, the N64 was three years old when that game released. And features several new mechanics that the team would have to learn to program - defeating the purpose of staying on familiar hardware. All that progress made with fog of war, fatigue, completely unknown to fans of the dying strategy genre. My prediction for FE6 is that development would have progressed further on the 64DD before that platform's discontinuation. They would have to rework the game to run on normal 64 for a release in 2001, but when all is said in done, the hellish development time cost them too much money to turn a profit. The choice of platform beyond this point is tricky since I have no idea whether Kaga would push to stay on home consoles or handhelds. He never expressed interest in handhelds so far as I'm aware, but Nintendo's home consoles were sinking fast while their handhelds kept them in the business. Whatever the choice of platform, Fire Emblem 7 would have a major shift in tone and gameplay accessibility at the request of Nintendo in the sixth generation, who now aim to have a grip on younger demographics. In other words, it would look and feel like our real world FE6 with cartoonish villains and oversimplified gameplay. And I just don't see Kaga sticking around past this point.

I think the Melee representation of Marth and "Ike/Roy" would have still happened however, generating some interest in a worldwide release for alternate universe FE7. Plus Advance Wars would definitely still happen, which primed the west for the arrival of Fire Emblem. I do believe Fire Emblem would continue at least until the seventh game, but there's just too many factors to guess what kind of game it would be or whether it makes it to our shores. Maybe in this alternate universe they'd put Fire Emblem to rest and instead Advance Wars would be as big as FE is today.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Gustavos

[omegaxis1]

14 minutes ago, Malik said:

If kaga stayed they will be more tactics and gameplay than fan service and marriage .if he stayed I don't think the series would have died but there would be less fans am sure about it. 

Yeah, very likely. It would never be overly popular, but it would just keep a steady pace that would avoid getting cancelled overall. 

[Hardin]

The only things I could see happening, is either the series being put to rest, or Kaga being replaced with someone else at IS. It seems pretty clear to me, that the producers at Nintendo felt that the games needed to be more accessible for newcomers, whereas Kaga wanted to double down on the hardcore fans. I don't think the Kaga of 2001 could make the game that Nintendo wanted.  

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Hardin said:

The only things I could see happening, is either the series being put to rest, or Kaga being replaced with someone else at IS. It seems pretty clear to me, that the producers at Nintendo felt that the games needed to be more accessible for newcomers, whereas Kaga wanted to double down on the hardcore fans. I don't think the Kaga of 2001 could make the game that Nintendo wanted.  

I think if Kaga never eased up on the games, I would never have been a fan of the franchise. 

[Slumber]

14 minutes ago, Hardin said:

The only things I could see happening, is either the series being put to rest, or Kaga being replaced with someone else at IS. It seems pretty clear to me, that the producers at Nintendo felt that the games needed to be more accessible for newcomers, whereas Kaga wanted to double down on the hardcore fans. I don't think the Kaga of 2001 could make the game that Nintendo wanted.  

The first game without Kaga is still considered one of the hardest in the franchise, and since his departure, we've had several other games that are pretty brutal(Radiant Dawn, Conquest).

I mean, I know his last game was Thracia 776, but I don't know where people think that's all Kaga was interested in. The Saga games aren't nearly as difficult as 776(At least TRS. Haven't played BS for obvious reasons), and the pre-776 FEs were a bit difficult, but nothing crazy. Certainly not super out of character, especially compared to FE6, 10 and Conquest. Hell, I think a good chunk of people would probably put Genealogy, Kaga's penultimate FE, on the lower end of the scale of difficulty in the franchise. Or at least somewhere in the middle.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Slumber

[Hardin]

Binding Blade simplified the gameplay of Fire Emblem. It removed dismounting, it abandoned fatigue and capturing, the skill system was removed, it reduced the number of classes, and the magic triangle was streamlined. The game was still challenging, but there was a conscious effort to remove things that over-complicated the games for more casual fans. You look at TRS in comparison, and it while it does drop some of the features from the Jugdral saga, it still maintains a lot of them. 

And let's be honest, we know that Kaga killed one franchise. I don't think it's a stretch that he would have killed FE if left at the helm. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Hardin

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd think, quite likely the next game after Thraccia would've been essentially what became Tear Ring Saga. From what I remember, Kaga wanted it to be another game within the world of Jugdral-Valentia-Archaneia, and even having Xane show up in there. If that was even after leaving IS, then it's likely that if he hadn't left, that might have gotten through as next game.

Ah, here's a quote:

Quote

“A certain shape-shifting youth will have an important role, in the guise of a mysterious bard and sage. Since this game occurs in the same time period as the first game, Dark Dragon and Sword of Light, more characters may return if the need arises.”

inb4 Whitewings Globetrotters with special guest, A CHAR

Edited July 15, 2017 by Acacia Sgt

[The Baroness of Blainswal]

I honestly feel that if Kaga was still working on Fire Emblem we would have an extremely different franchise today. Going off the games he's made he seems to change up the formula quite a bit each time, and after 25+ years of doing this it would probably be fairly unrecognizable from what we're used to. at least from a gameplay perspective. Would this be a good thing? A bad thing? Who knows, but I doubt the series would've become as formulaic (not that I'm trying to say that being formulaic is necessarily negative).

[KoimanZX]

Reclassing and My Units would have never existed as he has said that his games are about characters who already exist. Casual and Phoenix modes would not exist as Kaga seems to dislike having different difficulty settings and wants every decision to count. Kaga also seems to be fond of having character archetypes, so Axe Fighters would always be woodcutters or burly men from villages, and Pegasus Knights would always be female, therefore no Charlotte or Tsubaki. Ike would have been a noble as originally intended (and maybe be named "Paris"). Otherwise my thoughts are similar to many others in this thread (more niche, less friendly to casual gamers).