Fire Emblem Pitfalls Episode 5 - with dondon151

[Mekkah]

 

[sirmola]

I generaly agree with this exept for the part about why you should never play casual mode. It is true that classic mode is not necessarily adaquite preparation for casual mode, but that is not the only reason that people play casual mode. It is also tue that casual mode lets you make more mistakes, but to me, this is kind of the point. I play casual mode because i find it less fun to play the game if i have to redo 45 minutes of work every time I mess up. I find the "classic mode is the only way to play the game" attitude to be elitist and destructive. The thing about team composition also depends heavily on the game. In FE4, for instance, you can get almost all of your team to the level cap using the elite ring and civilians, removing the incentive to only give exp to good characters (unless you are trying to promote someone early).

Edited July 19, 2017 by sirmola

[Florete]

I've been watching these so if you're posting them here I guess I'll start responding.

Bigger things:

"Play Classic at all times"

No, thanks. I'll play classic if I specifically want the challenge, but otherwise I just find it much more convenient to play casual. Regardless, how is this a "pitfall?" It's not wrong to prefer casual over classic, and it's likely here to stay.

While I don't completely disagree with the suggestion to not base your full-game team on endgame, I don't perceive it as a problem. People who do this likely know the game already and just use endgame as an easy benchmark to plan out who they want to use so they don't feel they ended up using too many or too few units. People who plan this way probably would admit that it's not the most optimal way to play, they just do it because they want to.

Smaller nitpicks:

You can't bring everyone to the final map in SoV. Alm, Celica, +18 more.

"Untrained Lyn and Eliwood can't go up against the strongest enemies." Untrained Hector, too. Just sayin'.

Sothe and Micaiah won't be amazing, but when trained they won't exactly be liabilities, at least on normal/easy.

[Shadow Mir]

I must agree that this mindset of "always play classic mode" is veering into "Stop Having Fun" Guy territory. Other than that, I feel the need to point out that low-manning isn't as effective in Fates as it was in prior titles thanks to an exp formula that's stricter on high level units.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Ronnie]

8 hours ago, sirmola said:

I play casual mode because i find it less fun to play the game if i have to redo 45 minutes of work every time I mess up.

Honest question: how do you work around this preference when you play the older FE games? (especially considering your favorite is FE4 with larger maps)

[Nobody]

While I do think people should play on whichever mode they want, I personally believe that Casual Mode removes any inch on challenge from the series, even on Lunatic New Mystery of the Emblem. I'd take the advice on this video of only playing on classic mode as "if you want to get better on fire emblem, only play on classic", because classic pushes for good strategies, while casual doesn't, and if you end up only playing on casual, you won't ever improve IMO. I mean, if someone is watching a video series called Fire Emblem pitfalls, don't they want to improve at the game? Again, play on whichever difficulty mode you're fine with, but I can totally understand why Mekkah said that in the video, the whole series is just advice on how to get better at Fire Emblem, not an imperative "YOU HAVE TO DO THIS".

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

Honest question: how do you work around this preference when you play the older FE games? (especially considering your favorite is FE4 with larger maps)

You can save anywhere on FE4, so i don't think that's a problem for him in regards to that game.

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Nobody

[Florete]

10 hours ago, Nobody said:

While I do think people should play on whichever mode they want, I personally believe that Casual Mode removes any inch on challenge from the series, even on Lunatic New Mystery of the Emblem. I'd take the advice on this video of only playing on classic mode as "if you want to get better on fire emblem, only play on classic", because classic pushes for good strategies, while casual doesn't, and if you end up only playing on casual, you won't ever improve IMO.

Disagree. You can still fail on casual mode by losing everyone and there's still a penalty for losing a unit - they can't gain any more experience for that map. A player who plays casual mode only but often enough is still going to get better at the game, and if they advance to higher difficulties they will need to get better or they will straight up fail the maps.

[Mekkah]

14 hours ago, Florete said:

I've been watching these so if you're posting them here I guess I'll start responding.

Bigger things:

"Play Classic at all times"

If you're going to be quoting me I'd prefer you kept the context: "if you're a player who enjoys the series I'd recommend you play on Classic Mode at all times". I'd also like to refer you to the first episode of Pitfalls where I explain that Pitfalls is not about me telling people how to enjoy their single player game. However, if someone's looking to find a way to improve, then I'm gonna give some advice. And I believe playing classic over casual can make you a better player.

14 hours ago, Florete said:

While I don't completely disagree with the suggestion to not base your full-game team on endgame, I don't perceive it as a problem. People who do this likely know the game already and just use endgame as an easy benchmark to plan out who they want to use so they don't feel they ended up using too many or too few units. People who plan this way probably would admit that it's not the most optimal way to play, they just do it because they want to.

Again, great for them that they "feel" like they wanna play this way. But for those who want to actually play well (and I know that's not everyone), I think it's fair advice. 

14 hours ago, Florete said:

Smaller nitpicks:

You can't bring everyone to the final map in SoV. Alm, Celica, +18 more.

Yeah, someone brought that up already. Regardless, trying to raise 9 units + the lord on each side is still more than you should.

14 hours ago, Florete said:

"Untrained Lyn and Eliwood can't go up against the strongest enemies." Untrained Hector, too. Just sayin'.

Yeah, but Hector is good, so he wouldn't be a good example.

14 hours ago, Florete said:

Sothe and Micaiah won't be amazing, but when trained they won't exactly be liabilities, at least on normal/easy.

Yes, they will be. Sothe promotes to third tier in part 4 while Micaiah promotes right before endgame. Unless you're giving them like Wrath/Resolve, they're just going to slow you down and/or provide risky situations.

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Other than that, I feel the need to point out that low-manning isn't as effective in Fates as it was in prior titles thanks to an exp formula that's stricter on high level units.

I haven't played Fates so I try not to use it as an example. Willing to bet low manning in some shape or form is still easier than raising like 12 units though.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Mekkah said:

I haven't played Fates so I try not to use it as an example. Willing to bet low manning in some shape or form is still easier than raising like 12 units though.

Fair enough. I still must contest the viability of lowmanning when the exp decline is rather noticeable compared to other games in the series, though...

[Pixelman]

How would you discourage lowmanning anyway? As a guy who wants to delve into FE game design via ROM hacking, this problem has been annoying me for a while and I don't know how I would go about fixing it. (this isn't aimed at any particular person, btw)

Anyways, thanks for making these videos Mekkah. I think they made me improve as a Fire Emblem player in the long run.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Pixelman

[Moblin Major General]

I only play casual when I go into a game totally blind, and even then, once I found out about Mila's Turnwheel, I knew that I probably wouldn't need it for Shadows of Valentia. I thought I would get frustrated too easily if I didn't play casual the first time on a game (Echoes was a little frustrating, but only when I exhausted the Turnwheel, or witches were involved), but I was able to really get better at older games once I beat Awakening on Normal, and managed to beat FE8, FE7, and FE11 before I got Fates, where I played on Casual in both Conquest and Revelation before doing classic (I could have done it on Classic by that point, but I wanted to learn gimmicks and map layouts through experience). For  the getting better aspect, I don't usually want to play Casual unless it involves some ill-advised shenanigans, and I've never touched Phoenix and probably never will without a good reason.

[Florete]

9 hours ago, Mekkah said:

If you're going to be quoting me I'd prefer you kept the context: "if you're a player who enjoys the series I'd recommend you play on Classic Mode at all times".

That literally doesn't change anything.

9 hours ago, Mekkah said:

I'd also like to refer you to the first episode of Pitfalls where I explain that Pitfalls is not about me telling people how to enjoy their single player game. However, if someone's looking to find a way to improve, then I'm gonna give some advice. And I believe playing classic over casual can make you a better player.

That's a poor excuse. You shouldn't expect people to always remember (or even have known in the first place) everything you've said in every previous video, especially when some were so long ago. That's something you should preface every video with.

Ultimately, while I agree with your conclusion here (playing classic will make you a better player than playing casual), you didn't get it across well in the video.

9 hours ago, Mekkah said:

Yeah, but Hector is good, so he wouldn't be a good example.

I don't think that matters.

I also take issue with the implication that Hector is significantly better than Lyn and Eliwood, but this isn't the place for that.

9 hours ago, Mekkah said:

Yes, they will be. Sothe promotes to third tier in part 4 while Micaiah promotes right before endgame. Unless you're giving them like Wrath/Resolve, they're just going to slow you down and/or provide risky situations.

Micaiah I'll leave since she can be iffy due to her growths, but Sothe is definitely serviceable on easy and normal. Amazing? No. A liability? Also no.

[Mekkah]

5 hours ago, Florete said:

That literally doesn't change anything.

Sure does. My recommendation if you want to get better at Fire Emblem is to play on classic mode at all times. That's not the same as saying "play on classic mode, always". The tone is different and the reasoning is important.

Quote

That's a poor excuse. You shouldn't expect people to always remember (or even have known in the first place) everything you've said in every previous video, especially when some were so long ago. That's something you should preface every video with.

Ultimately, while I agree with your conclusion here (playing classic will make you a better player than playing casual), you didn't get it across well in the video.

The point got across fine to most viewers I'm sure, since you're literally the first person to bring this up. It helps that it was literally the first thing mentioned in the first Pitfalls episode, where I explain exactly what the series is about. I'm not going to repeat that disclaimer in every episode.

Quote

I don't think [the fact that Hector is good] matters.

Then you must've missed the part where I said something like: "if a unit is good and forced at some point, sure, train 'em". You don't think it makes a difference whether a unit is good or bad when recommending them to players looking to improve their strats?

Quote

I also take issue with the implication that Hector is significantly better than Lyn and Eliwood, but this isn't the place for that.

Well, I explained exactly why I think Eliwood and Lyn are bad units in another episode and the community tier list placed Hector at #15 while Eliwood is #26 and Lyn at #30, out of 42 characters. That seems like a significant gap to me.

Quote

Micaiah I'll leave since she can be iffy due to her growths, but Sothe is definitely serviceable on easy and normal. Amazing? No. A liability? Also no.

So what's he doing that's serviceable, that makes him worth not just training him in part 4 after his promotion and then deploying? I don't see why you would ever want to put Sothe in enemy range when I could make these enemies suicide into laguz royals or some other more powerful unit.

 

edit:

13 hours ago, Pixelman said:

How would you discourage lowmanning anyway? As a guy who wants to delve into FE game design via ROM hacking, this problem has been annoying me for a while and I don't know how I would go about fixing it. (this isn't aimed at any particular person, btw)

Anyways, thanks for making these videos Mekkah I think they actually made me improve as a Fire Emblem player

If you're willing to go there, 0% growths. Or make all units that join, viable upon joining but make growth rates/promo bonuses low, while making enemy quality and density high enough to where you need to use a lot of people. Or take away the preps menu in a way gaiden did, so that a ton of units are forced onto every map in unpredictable locations.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Mekkah

[Florete]

8 hours ago, Mekkah said:

Sure does. My recommendation if you want to get better at Fire Emblem is to play on classic mode at all times. That's not the same as saying "play on classic mode, always". The tone is different and the reasoning is important.

This quote didn't include getting better. It was, "if you're a player who enjoys the series I'd recommend you play on Classic Mode at all times".

8 hours ago, Mekkah said:

The point got across fine to most viewers I'm sure, since you're literally the first person to bring this up. It helps that it was literally the first thing mentioned in the first Pitfalls episode, where I explain exactly what the series is about. I'm not going to repeat that disclaimer in every episode.

The posts above and below mine made similar responses. This is an important disclaimer to make that should at the very least be in every video description because not everyone will have seen the previous episodes. Veteran players get enough flak for putting down casual mode players.

Besides, how much time does it take to say, "Remember, I'm not here to tell you how to enjoy your game, I'm only making suggestions if you want to get better" in every video?

9 hours ago, Mekkah said:

Then you must've missed the part where I said something like: "if a unit is good and forced at some point, sure, train 'em". You don't think it makes a difference whether a unit is good or bad when recommending them to players looking to improve their strats?

I think if the point isn't specifically about those units, you shouldn't single out specifics because someone will inevitably disagree and your point loses focus. The point that was being made here was that untrained units in Endgame can be kept out of the way, not how good or bad Lyn, Eliwood, or Hector are.

9 hours ago, Mekkah said:

So what's he doing that's serviceable, that makes him worth not just training him in part 4 after his promotion and then deploying? I don't see why you would ever want to put Sothe in enemy range when I could make these enemies suicide into laguz royals or some other more powerful unit.

Fighting? I mean, there's plenty of space between "amazing" and "a liability."

[Irysa]

Fox, I think you're being excessively uncharitable here. Like, you're being so uncharitable it borders on intentional misrepresentation of Mekkah's core points. Pitfalls is a series about misconceptions people have regarding things in FE. It's not a pitfall to train a full team, and that's not what he said or implied, merely that it's a pitfall to think that you SHOULD do that. It's not a pitfall to play on casual mode, it's a pitfall to think that classic mode with resets and casual mode are basically the same thing, etc.

I think that you may have subconciously mistaken the silly dumbdumb151 joke at the start to be indicative of an elitist casual bashing mentality, and then that coloured your perception of the video as a whole to the point that this mentality permeates everything. But it's really more at the expense of dondon himself rather than an anti casual thing.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Irysa

[Ronnie]

24 minutes ago, Irysa said:

it's a pitfall to think that classic mode with resets and casual mode are basically the same thing, etc.

they are basically the same thing. who honestly wants to bumrush their units into suicide on casual mode? they're gonna lose out on experience points and as a result you end up with a team that can't leave a dent on an enemy in later chapters. Casual just provides that extra cushion so that if you did end up making a bad move at the end of a chapter, you can just take the hit and finish the chapter as opposed to resetting and starting over. You can still play smart on casual if you actually want your guys to get experience.

[Mekkah]

2 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

they are basically the same thing. (...) Casual just provides that extra cushion so that if you did end up making a bad move at the end of a chapter, you can just take the hit and finish the chapter as opposed to resetting and starting over. 

So they're not the same thing.

[Ronnie]

3 minutes ago, Mekkah said:

So they're not the same thing.

I said basically, not exactly.

[SpearOfLies]

3 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

they are basically the same thing. who honestly wants to bumrush their units into suicide on casual mode? they're gonna lose out on experience points and as a result you end up with a team that can't leave a dent on an enemy in later chapters. Casual just provides that extra cushion so that if you did end up making a bad move at the end of a chapter, you can just take the hit and finish the chapter as opposed to resetting and starting over. You can still play smart on casual if you actually want your guys to get experience.

The difference is how you care about your bad moves. Play classic and you curse about your poor decision making. Play casual and you just "meh, I can still continue". Playing classic, you keep trying improve your strategy and decision making. Playing casual and you just limit your improvement.

One can still play smart on casual but you feel far less punished by errors and you can even sacrifice your good unit to weak a strong enemy to let your other unit kill him.

[Ronnie]

Just now, SpearOfLies said:

The difference is how you care about your bad moves. Play classic and you curse about your poor decision making. Play casual and you just "meh, I can still continue". Playing classic, you keep trying improve your strategy and decision making. Playing casual and you just limit your improvement.

One can still play smart on casual but you feel far less punished by errors and you can even sacrifice your good unit to weak a strong enemy to let your other unit kill him.

You can still improve your strategy and decision making in casual mode. It's up to the player if they have the self restraint not to send anyone and everyone to the frontlines as sacrificial lambs. I agree that it is easier on the players because they won't need to feel frustrated at restarting once or twice till they get it right but at the end of the day a casual player will still realize how they fucked up in a certain turn and use that knowledge in the preceding chapter.

I'm not trying to start another one of those casual vs classic wars. I play classic mode but I do think a good portion of the negative stigma towards casual mode is unwarranted.

[SpearOfLies]

3 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

You can still improve your strategy and decision making in casual mode. It's up to the player if they have the self restraint not to send anyone and everyone to the frontlines as sacrificial lambs. I agree that it is easier on the players because they won't need to feel frustrated at restarting once or twice till they get it right but at the end of the day a casual player will still realize how they fucked up in a certain turn and use that knowledge in the preceding chapter.

I'm not trying to start another one of those casual vs classic wars. I play classic mode but I do think a good portion of the negative stigma towards casual mode is unwarranted.

The sacrificial lambs is just thhe extreme example. Just mindless throw you best unit into enemy army and let RNGod do his job(what most of people do with Ryouma) is already give up on trying improve yourself.

 

Knowing how fucked up and how solve a fuckup situation or how don't make a fuckup situation is different. I hard to believe someone play casual will try to do so.

 

I don't plan either. And I agree as well about the negative stigma towards casual mode is unwarranted. But saying that casual and classic are basically same is throwing oils on fire. Just let everyone enjoy their game.

[Florete]

8 hours ago, Irysa said:

Fox, I think you're being excessively uncharitable here. Like, you're being so uncharitable it borders on intentional misrepresentation of Mekkah's core points. Pitfalls is a series about misconceptions people have regarding things in FE. It's not a pitfall to train a full team, and that's not what he said or implied, merely that it's a pitfall to think that you SHOULD do that. It's not a pitfall to play on casual mode, it's a pitfall to think that classic mode with resets and casual mode are basically the same thing, etc.

I think that you may have subconciously mistaken the silly dumbdumb151 joke at the start to be indicative of an elitist casual bashing mentality, and then that coloured your perception of the video as a whole to the point that this mentality permeates everything. But it's really more at the expense of dondon himself rather than an anti casual thing.

Who's Fox?

Let's get something straight here: I think the video has some potentially valuable advice. However, I think it was not gotten across well. At all. And if someone is going to do a video series like this for a game series like this with our kind of fandom split, you need to be on point. So, no, I don't think I'm being uncharitable.