Second Bond Conversation-- Mercer/Merc I mean Chrom/Ryoma

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

Because I don't think it IS possible when I compare RD Ike's muscularity to Chrom's. To me, Ike physically looks a good deal stronger. That's all.

I can't acknowledge that it's possible if I don't actually believe it is.

And of course Chrom and company would be able to take them down in that case, it wouldn't make sense gameplay-wise if they couldn't. Lore-wise, I'm pretty sure the Greil Mercs would man-handle Chrom's group.

You are putting way too much stock in their appearances and not their feats. A simple change in art direction can account for that.

And those last two lines right there shows your bias. What proof is there that the Shepherds would lose? Their leaders are comparable. Robin is probably a better strategist than Soren since he/she knows their troops better and what they can and cannot do. Who's to say they'd lose? Because they already beat the phantoms. Whoever won, I doubt either side would man handle the other. If stats are anything to go by, the Shepherds would be on the winning side by most counts.

[Anacybele]

10 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

You are putting way too much stock in their appearances and not their feats. A simple change in art direction can account for that.

And those last two lines right there shows your bias. What proof is there that the Shepherds would lose? Their leaders are comparable. Robin is probably a better strategist than Soren since he/she knows their troops better and what they can and cannot do. Who's to say they'd lose? Because they already beat the phantoms. Whoever won, I doubt either side would man handle the other. If stats are anything to go by, the Shepherds would be on the winning side by most counts.

I'm taking into account their feats too, actually, I think swinging around a massive ass sword with one hand and beating a powerful mad king (who can go berserk by touching Lehran's Medallion and become even stronger, I might add), and a powerful knight with blessed armor is quite impressive as well. This plus how much muscle Ike has gained makes me think he's a little stronger. Not WAY stronger, but a little.

Stats are strictly gameplay only. I'm talking about lore and story.

There's no way to know if Soren or Robin is the better strategist. And I'm not even talking about strategy anyway, I'm talking about one on one fights.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Anacybele

[Interdimensional Observer]

10 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Also, I'm talking about the DLC where you fought Ike where Hubba actually talks about him. Chrom and the Shepherds handily take them all down.

Einherjars don't really count as hero vs. hero battles. The Einherjars are illusions stored in cards that take the form of ancient heroes and have just a fragmental impression of their supposed personality- there is no way they could be as powerful as the chars they're based on. Look at how easily Einherjar Eirika is manipulated in Heroes of Yore 2. Real Ike vs. real Chrom would be much different. Who'd emerge supreme, who knows?

And gameplay is not the same as story or reflective of it- until the day when Franz says to Seth, "I hope I can be like you someday", and then Seth responds "look at our growths and bases and compare our 20/20 averages- you'll never surpass me if we both fight- so give up that aspiration". (That translated Raigh-Hugh support counts for nothing until the Japanese is examined).

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Einherjars don't really count as hero vs. hero battles. The Einherjars are illusions stored in cards that take the form of ancient heroes and have just a fragmental impression of their supposed personality- there is no way they could be as powerful as the chars they're based on. Look at how easily Einherjar Eirika is manipulated in Heroes of Yore 2. Real Ike vs. real Chrom would be much different. Who'd emerge supreme, who knows?

And gameplay is not the same as story or reflective of it- until the day when Franz says to Seth, "I hope I can be like you someday", and then Seth responds "look at our growths and bases and compare our 20/20 averages- you'll never surpass me if we both fight- so give up that aspiration". (That translated Raigh-Hugh support counts for nothing until the Japanese is examined).

Oh yeah, Einherjars? They definitely don't count since they're not the real characters, just cards based on them.

[Arthur97]

Just now, Anacybele said:

I'm taking into account their feats too, actually, I think swinging around a massive ass sword and beating a powerful mad king (who can go berserk by touching Lehran's Medallion and become even stronger, I might add), and a powerful knight with blessed armor is quite impressive as well. This plus how much muscle Ike has gained makes me think he's a little stronger. Not WAY stronger, but a little.

Stats are strictly gameplay only. I'm talking about lore and story.

There's no way to know if Soren or Robin is the better strategist. And I'm not even talking about strategy anyway, I'm talking about one on one fights.

You mentioned them as a group, so strategy would be very important. You think they would win one on one, because you like them. You have no evidence. 

As for the Black Knight, the blessed armor thing is null, because Ragnell was doing the work for getting through that.

Chrom also took down a conqueror who had easily conquered a continent, and he could easily swing Ragnell around and throw it (as silly as that looks). And, yes, it may be drained of power so he can wield it (as shown by how worn it looks), but it should still be about the same weight.

They are about equal when you look at these things. Add in the wall thing, and Ike looking slightly more muscular really doesn't matter much. Especially when the games had different art directors (probably).

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

Einherjars don't really count as hero vs. hero battles. The Einherjars are illusions stored in cards that take the form of ancient heroes and have just a fragmental impression of their supposed personality- there is no way they could be as powerful as the chars they're based on. Look at how easily Einherjar Eirika is manipulated in Heroes of Yore 2. Real Ike vs. real Chrom would be much different. Who'd emerge supreme, who knows?

And gameplay is not the same as story or reflective of it- until the day when Franz says to Seth, "I hope I can be like you someday", and then Seth responds "look at our growths and bases and compare our 20/20 averages- you'll never surpass me if we both fight- so give up that aspiration". (That translated Raigh-Hugh support counts for nothing until the Japanese is examined).

I'll grant you that the phantoms are not the same, but they did beat a large group of them so that at least speaks well of the Shepherds as a whole since weakened versions of legendary heroes and villains ganging up on you and you coming out on top is still impressive.

[Anacybele]

5 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

You mentioned them as a group, so strategy would be very important. You think they would win one on one, because you like them. You have no evidence. 

lolwut? I've been giving you evidence this whole fucking time. I said before, Titania, Oscar, and Shinon are all veteran warriors and knights. By RD, so are Ike, Boyd, and the rest of the group. Soren's an excellent strategist that's probably Robin's equal there, if you really want to keep going with that part too. The Shepherds are mostly novices with not much experience. Frederick is their only veteran and I believe he could lose to Titania at least. And this is coming from a Frederick fangirl. There's no bias here whatsoever.

The PoR mercenaries might be given a run for their money, but their RD selves would most assuredly win.

You think the Shepherds would win because you like them. You don't even know as much about Ike and his group as I do because you didn't play those games. I did. I played Tellius AND Awakening. Multiple times. You only played Awakening. Therefore, my knowledge on both groups as a whole definitely trumps yours.

[Thany]

goodness me... when did this become an ike vs chrom strength competition? this kind of conversation should be saved for when Ike becomes a playable character in a warriors game. Im just more curious how chroms strength would keep up with ryomas speed.

besides we all know wrys has the strongest muscles of them all

Edited July 26, 2017 by Thany

[SMinairo]

 

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

I disagree. When FE mentions how Ike is the strongest of all heroes, they're talking about not just his physical strength, but also his sword skills and experience.

 

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

Being a lifelong mercenary does mean you train a lot to increase your skill, because your job is to fight enemies and defeat them.

What I'm going to say might sound a bit far fetched, but if we take a look at Ike in fates, we see that his personal class has the sword rank capped at A. While I don't usually take gameplay as proof, I'd say that a game that puts multiple characters in a same place is a good place to compare them, at least in a stat that doesn't depend on luck, and the result is that Ike doesn't shine for his skill in swordmanship. (Not saying that Chrom has better swordmanship)

19 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

 I said before, Titania, Oscar, and Shinon are all veteran warriors and knights. By RD, so are Ike, Boyd, and the rest of the group.

I won't say that the awakening grup will win for sure, but why all the RD group count as veterans, but not the awakening one after two wars and fighting Grima?

[Lord-Zero]

The Chrom and Ryoma conversation will be quite interesting in English. 

[thecrimsonflash]

41 minutes ago, Sbuscoz said:

 

 

What I'm going to say might sound a bit far fetched, but if we take a look at Ike in fates, we see that his personal class has the sword rank capped at A. While I don't usually take gameplay as proof, I'd say that a game that puts multiple characters in a same place is a good place to compare them, at least in a stat that doesn't depend on luck, and the result is that Ike doesn't shine for his skill in swordmanship. (Not saying that Chrom has better swordmanship)

Ike in radiant dawn had an SS rank in both swords and axes. Best Chrom had in awakening was A. Corrin only had an A in swords and a B in dragonstones.

Edited July 27, 2017 by thecrimsonflash

[SMinairo]

Just now, thecrimsonflash said:

Ike in radiant dawn had an SS rank in both swords and axes.

Yeah, but my point was that fates we have Marth, Ike, Daraen and Lucina, so you can do comparisons. We can't compare the stats of different games, because they don't have the same mechanics.

In fates though, you can see Ike's sword rank being A at most, while Marth can reach S. This doesn't mean that Marth would win, but if we compare them, we can see that Marth has better swordmanship.

[thecrimsonflash]

Just now, Sbuscoz said:

Yeah, but my point was that fates we have Marth, Ike, Daraen and Lucina, so you can do comparisons. We can't compare the stats of different games, because they don't have the same mechanics.

In fates though, you can see Ike's sword rank being A at most, while Marth can reach S. This doesn't mean that Marth would win, but if we compare them, we can see that Marth has better swordmanship.

the reason for this was because of fates' mechanics, there were only two classes that could attain an s rank in swords, those being the swordmaster and the lodestar, the point is that fates would ultimately nerf Ike for the sake of gameplay, the same can be said about robin's 40/40/40/40/40/40 base stats.

[Arthur97]

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

lolwut? I've been giving you evidence this whole fucking time. I said before, Titania, Oscar, and Shinon are all veteran warriors and knights. By RD, so are Ike, Boyd, and the rest of the group. Soren's an excellent strategist that's probably Robin's equal there, if you really want to keep going with that part too. The Shepherds are mostly novices with not much experience. Frederick is their only veteran and I believe he could lose to Titania at least. And this is coming from a Frederick fangirl. There's no bias here whatsoever.

The PoR mercenaries might be given a run for their money, but their RD selves would most assuredly win.

You think the Shepherds would win because you like them. You don't even know as much about Ike and his group as I do because you didn't play those games. I did. I played Tellius AND Awakening. Multiple times. You only played Awakening. Therefore, my knowledge on both groups as a whole definitely trumps yours.

I meant you had no proof for the Shepherds vs Greil mercenaries.

As for Chrom vs. Ike, you're simply not listening to my evidence. And you're starting to cuss and being uncivil. That combined with your inability to accept Ike as mortal means, I'm done. You won't listen. You're too biased. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Arthur97

[Acacia Sgt]

Man, all these arguments going on, and meanwhile I'm here laughing at the realization that I'm basically hearing Joshua Radcliff and Bullet Luckfield, hahahaha...

[Anacybele]

6 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

I meant you had no proof for the Shepherds vs Greil mercenaries.

As for Chrom vs. Ike, you're simply not listening to my evidence. And you're starting to cuss and simply be a jerk. That combined with your inability to accept Ike as mortal means, I'm done. You won't listen. You're too biased. 

You're the one ignoring and not listening to my evidence, what are you talking about? And I said one swear word. That doesn't mean I'm being a jerk. And now you're putting words in my mouth, I also never said Ike was immortal. No FE character is truly immortal.

Presenting evidence and facts =/= bias. You're the one that's too biased.

28 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

Ike in radiant dawn had an SS rank in both swords and axes. Best Chrom had in awakening was A. Corrin only had an A in swords and a B in dragonstones.

And this. Different FE games have different mechanics, though, so we can't really use weapon ranks as solid evidence.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

You're both kind of being goobers, SoS Roy is strongest lord

I think this is about what I expected from the supports, and probably the best they could do with the worlds being so different.

[thecrimsonflash]

11 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

That combined with your inability to accept Ike as mortal means, I'm done. 

I don't recall her calling Ike immortal, by saying this are you implying Chrom is immortal?

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, thecrimsonflash said:

I don't recall her calling Ike immortal, by saying this are you implying Chrom is immortal?

No, it was hyperbole because she has him on such a high pedestal. Good grief, Chrom dying is a major plot point.

[Pokechu]

6 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

I don't recall her calling Ike immortal, by saying this are you implying Chrom is immortal?

Arthur isn't implying that Chrom is immortal. Chrom dies in the plot, doesn't he?  He meant that Ike isn't immune and invulnerable, at least not as much Anacybele is making him out to be over Chrom. At least, that's how I took it.

edit: ninja'd by Arthur himself!

Edited July 27, 2017 by Pokechu

[SMinairo]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

And this. Different FE games have different mechanics, though, so we can't really use weapon ranks as solid evidence.

That's why I talked about Fates, taking characters from different settings and putting them in another. I know it's far-fetched (they are Smash character to begin with), but we are still applying the same mechanics to the characters.

I won't say that my argument is great, and I wouldn't blame anyone for not believing in it, but it still should be considered as lodestar and vanguard were created as Marth and Ike classes, and one has better weapon rank than the other. Swordmaster it's not the same, as it is a generic class, and it makes sense that someone who has only been training with swords is a better swordsman than someone who has more options.

[Arthur97]

31 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

You're the one ignoring and not listening to my evidence, what are you talking about? And I said one swear word. That doesn't mean I'm being a jerk. And now you're putting words in my mouth, I also never said Ike was immortal. No FE character is truly immortal.

Presenting evidence and facts =/= bias. You're the one that's too biased.

And this. Different FE games have different mechanics, though, so we can't really use weapon ranks as solid evidence.

For the last time. I have presented you with evidence that you are ignoring, but you also ignore that fact. You treat Ike's group as veterans, but treat the Shepherds as green noobs. You say Ike beat mad tyrants, so did Chrom. You say Ike can swing around Ragnell single handed, so can Chrom. However, Chrom can destroy a stinking castle wall that are typically made several feet thick for the purpose of repelling entire armies BY HIMSELF. By ignoring that, you are refusing to face the facts I have so plainly placed before you. I don't care how beefy Ike looks, he's never done anything close to that. Don't talk to me about bias. None of your facts counter my argument, but you say I'm the one who won't listen and is a hypocrite. Do not continue this unless you are willing to accept the evidence that Chrom could very well be stronger. Maybe Ike has better swordsmanship, but as far as raw physical strength goes, Chrom is ridiculous. That's just how it is. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Arthur97

[Interdimensional Observer]

38 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

You're the one ignoring and not listening to my evidence, what are you talking about? And I said one swear word. That doesn't mean I'm being a jerk. And now you're putting words in my mouth, I also never said Ike was immortal. No FE character is truly immortal.

Presenting evidence and facts =/= bias. You're the one that's too biased.

 

7 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

For the last time. I have presented you with evidence that you are ignoring, but you also ignore that fact. You treat Ike's group as veterans, but treat the Shepherds as green noobs. You say Ike beat mad tyrants, so did Chrom. You say Ike can swing around Ragnell single handed, so can Chrom. However, Chrom can destroy a stinking castle wall that are typically made several feet thick for the purpose of repelling entire armies BY HIMSELF. By ignoring that, you are refusing to face the facts I have so plainly placed before you. I don't care how beefy Ike looks, he's never done anything close to that. Don't talk to me about bias. None of your facts counter my argument, but you say I'm the one who won't listen and is a hypocrite. Do not continue this unless you are willing to accept the evidence that Chrom could very well be stronger. Maybe Ike has better swordsmanship, but as far as raw physical strength goes, Chrom is ridiculous. That's just how it is.

 

in the names of Elincia and Emmeryn could the two of you please cease this bickering? Different opinions on the power levels of different but equally fictional and inconsequential characters. You've sparred enough that the both of you should realize that neither one of you will convince the other. I don't care who started it- because once things get too far in that becomes irrelevant, all that matters now is the resolution.

I'm only saying this because I mean well.

[Arthur97]

5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

 

 

in the names of Elincia and Emmeryn could the two of you please cease this bickering? Different opinions on the power levels of different but equally fictional and inconsequential characters. You've sparred enough that the both of you should realize that neither one of you will convince the other. I don't care who started it- because once things get too far in that becomes irrelevant, all that matters now is the resolution.

I'm only saying this because I mean well.

I want to stop, but I'm terrible at gritting through attacks.

[thecrimsonflash]

10 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

For the last time. I have presented you with evidence that you are ignoring, but you also ignore that fact. You treat Ike's group as veterans, but treat the Shepherds as green noobs. You say Ike beat mad tyrants, so did Chrom. You say Ike can swing around Ragnell single handed, so can Chrom. However, Chrom can destroy a stinking castle wall that are typically made several feet thick for the purpose of repelling entire armies BY HIMSELF. By ignoring that, you are refusing to face the facts I have so plainly placed before you. I don't care how beefy Ike looks, he's never done anything close to that. Don't talk to me about bias. None of your facts counter my argument, but you say I'm the one who won't listen and is a hypocrite. Do not continue this unless you are willing to accept the evidence that Chrom could very well be stronger. Maybe Ike has better swordsmanship, but as far as raw physical strength goes, Chrom is ridiculous. That's just how it is. 

If any one person can break a hole in castle wall by mistake, the wall was going to break on its own regardless, the hole was also just a terribly written excuse to have lucina in the castle without anyone knowing. the context of the wall is very difficult to ascertain because we know very little about the context in which it was broken. for all we know fredrick could have slammed chrom into the wall with a training axe so hard he broke a hole in the wall and was too embarrassed to tell anyone about how majorly he got beat by fredrick.

it also explains how ylisse deserved to be conquered by plegia and in a more just world the game would have ended with chrom and company being forced out because of a certain hole but that is neither here nor there.

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, thecrimsonflash said:

If any one person can break a hole in castle wall by mistake, the wall was going to break on its own regardless, the hole was also just a terribly written excuse to have lucina in the castle without anyone knowing. the context of the wall is very difficult to ascertain because we know very little about the context in which it was broken. for all we know fredrick could have slammed chrom into the wall with a training axe so hard he broke a hole in the wall and was too embarrassed to tell anyone about how majorly he got beat by fredrick.

it also explains how ylisse deserved to be conquered by plegia and in a more just world the game would have ended with chrom and company being forced out because of a certain hole but that is neither here nor there.

Oh, I agree it's dumb and I usually choose to ignore it, but without any details, it would appear he just straight up crushed it. The wall also does not appear to be in disrepair.