Sacred Coins

[Johann]

I anticipate Hardy Bearing becoming a regular skill at some point.

[Azuni]

Yeah, Hardy Bearing could end up being a skill with similar thresholds to Guard (1-100% hp, 2- ≥90%, 3- ≥80%) so the number attached to it makes sense.

So that means an eventual dedicated anti-Vantage/Desperation unit could appear in the game.

[Othin]

5 minutes ago, Azuni said:

Yeah, Hardy Bearing could end up being a skill with similar thresholds to Guard (1-100% hp, 2- ≥90%, 3- ≥80%) so the number attached to it makes sense.

So that means an eventual dedicated anti-Vantage/Desperation unit could appear in the game.

Could also be like Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff, where it extends to 50% and then any HP amount. Given how narrow it is, on top of keeping the unit from using those skills themself, it seems reasonable.

[Jingle Jangle]

I wonder what would happen to Quickened Pulse if the coins are going to  upgrade seal? Currently it is the only seal with a silver border. What, the cooldown is reduced by -2? Or Phantom spd 3, which  it could boost wind-sweep by 7. Pretty much getting a free hit in everyone in the game..

[Othin]

15 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I wonder what would happen to Quickened Pulse if the coins are going to  upgrade seal? Currently it is the only seal with a silver border. What, the cooldown is reduced by -2? Or Phantom spd 3, which  it could boost wind-sweep by 7. Pretty much getting a free hit in everyone in the game..

Quickened Pulse has a white border, not a silver border. It's like Grani's Shield: it doesn't have levels. If it did, it'd have a number next to it.

The fact that Phantom Speed 1 gives a +5 boost suggests each further level adds more than 1. I'd expect Phantom Speed 3 to give at least +9, although I'm still not sure that would make it worth using when other level 3 seals will be available as well.

[NekoKnight]

I think leveling up seals is very likely, and I hope the price is fair (maybe 10 coins per level). I kind of wish you could level up skills as well. That would greatly expand the options for SI (Bartres will no longer be useless).

28 minutes ago, Othin said:

Could also be like Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff, where it extends to 50% and then any HP amount. Given how narrow it is, on top of keeping the unit from using those skills themself, it seems reasonable.

That seems the most likely. Currently, the skill is almost more detrimental than useful. With the health requirement, it can't reeally be used for QR or Fury users on top of Vantage and Desperation users. That's only my whole army, IS.

 

[Jingle Jangle]

4 minutes ago, Othin said:

Quickened Pulse has a white border, not a silver border. It's like Grani's Shield: it doesn't have levels. If it did, it'd have a number next to it.

The fact that Phantom Speed 1 gives a +5 boost suggests each further level adds more than 1. I'd expect Phantom Speed 3 to give at least +9, although I'm still not sure that would make it worth using when other level 3 seals will be available as well.

Huh, my eyes deceive me. If Phantom Speed 3 really does add +9 that is impressive. For other level 3 seals there are the stat increase skills. Which can put a band-aid on unfavorable banes, or make the good even better. I guess that  future seals will be against the meta. Brave weapon breaker perhaps?

[Zeo]

18 minutes ago, Othin said:

Quickened Pulse has a white border, not a silver border. It's like Grani's Shield: it doesn't have levels. If it did, it'd have a number next to it.

The fact that Phantom Speed 1 gives a +5 boost suggests each further level adds more than 1. I'd expect Phantom Speed 3 to give at least +9, although I'm still not sure that would make it worth using when other level 3 seals will be available as well.

Completely and utterly broken if Phantom Speed 3 gave +9. Imagine a Brave Unit like +ATK Batre/Raven or Bride Cordelia. They could freely attack units below 35-40+ Speed with no fear of retaliation. As long as they don't need to quad.

...Wait...

+SPD Brave Sword Hana. with Windsweep and Phantom Speed 3 seal.

48 ATK + Possible Skill Proc and 48 SPD effectively negating followups from every single unit in the entire game (Aside from Mages and Close counter colorless which she's probably killing on initiation.). PLUS she can counter on enemy phase still (if she doesn't die).

Broken.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Zeo

[Othin]

2 minutes ago, Zeo said:

Completely and utterly broken if Phantom Speed 3 gave +9. Imagine a Brave Unit like +ATK Batre/Raven or Bride Cordelia. They could freely attack units below 35-40+ Speed with no fear of retaliation. As long as they don't need to quad.

...Wait...

+SPD Brave Sword Hana. with Windsweep and Phantom Speed 3 seal.

48 ATK + Possible Skill Proc with no retaliation whatsoever and 48 speed effectively negating followups from every single unit in the entire game. PLUS she can counter on enemy phase still (if she doesn't die).

Broken.

If they don't need to quad, Windsweep/Watersweep doesn't matter because the enemy would already be dead. If they're failing to kill on their own turn, they're risking retaliation on the enemy phase.

Plus, you can only pick one of Windsweep/Watersweep, so there are some weapon types it won't even work on.

[Zeo]

2 minutes ago, Othin said:

If they don't need to quad, Windsweep/Watersweep doesn't matter because the enemy would already be dead. If they're failing to kill on their own turn, they're risking retaliation on the enemy phase.

Plus, you can only pick one of Windsweep/Watersweep, so there are some weapon types it won't even work on.

For Melee units, they are likely killing mages and colorless on the first two strikes, so Watersweep is irrelevant. For the physical units, you're taking one hit on enemy phase instead of one on enemy and player phase, which makes dying unlikely unless they are going to OHKO you. Quadding is irrelevant unless you need it to kill (aka Armors, Selph, Eldigan etc).

Still broken. At least on a unit like Hana or Raven. Don't know how useful it would be on Reinhardt or a Brave Archer.

[Johann]

Windsweep and Watersweep are pretty much only useful if you're planning on crippling someone (daggers, seal skills), have some sort of follow-up plan that finishes them off (Dance/Sing), or bypassing Vantage.

[Alkaid]

1 hour ago, Othin said:

Could also be like Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff, where it extends to 50% and then any HP amount. Given how narrow it is, on top of keeping the unit from using those skills themself, it seems reasonable.

I'd be very interested to see a lvl 3 Hardy Bearing if it behaves like that. Giving an option to units that otherwise can't duel the likes of Vantage Hector, Ryoma, Ike, etc. due to Vantage memes could add some team flexibility.

[Johann]

15 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

I'd be very interested to see a lvl 3 Hardy Bearing if it behaves like that. Giving an option to units that otherwise can't duel the likes of Vantage Hector, Ryoma, Ike, etc. due to Vantage memes could add some team flexibility.

I agree completely. Having a greater diversity of tools is as important as a diverse cast of characters. I suspect it'd fall in the A-slot since it disables skills that are B-slots (like how Cancel Affinity is a B-slot cancelling an A-slot).

Ya know, just yesterday in Arena Assault, I had my -Atk Clarine kill Hector slowly using Dazzling Staff on the bridge map. Eat it, Armor Emblem!

[Rezzy]

Overall, I don't think Hardy Bearing tips the meta and is a good option for countering Vantage Hectors and Ryomas out there.  Distant Counter and QR being on Hector already makes him a force to be reckoned with.  Vantage made him something that if you don't have a strong counter to specifically him, you will lose.

 

It's not something like Cancel Affinity, which didn't really need to be added and just made Bridelia more broken than she already was.  It just hurts TA and Gem weapons which already had the drawback of being extra weak to their weak color.  It pretty much took away the niche of Raven users, taking away the one thing they were good at.  I haven't really heard many people complain about how OP Robin was to the point he needed a nerf.

[Johann]

Are people actually having a hard time due to Cancel Affinity? I can see Vantage Hectors and Ryomas ending runs (or at least hurting scores), but I can't say I've ever felt beaten because of CA.

For what it's worth, I use Swordbreaker on Robin, since I figure swords are more common, usually crazy fast, and Robin can't counter normally. In things like Arena Assault, I save him for teams that are heavy on threatening sword units.

[Alkaid]

27 minutes ago, Johann said:

Are people actually having a hard time due to Cancel Affinity? I can see Vantage Hectors and Ryomas ending runs (or at least hurting scores), but I can't say I've ever felt beaten because of CA.

For what it's worth, I use Swordbreaker on Robin, since I figure swords are more common, usually crazy fast, and Robin can't counter normally. In things like Arena Assault, I save him for teams that are heavy on threatening sword units.

I can't tell how big a deal it is since nobody really seems to run it. I think it'd have to be as common as Vantage or other skills for it to really have much impact, which it currently isn't. My Camilla continues to function just as consistently as before CA came out, and I'd still feel comfortable investing in other TA Raven units if I wanted them. I pretty much only see a handful of Bride Cordelias going ham with it and Mathilda herself. And for the Cordelias, I never wanted to bait an attack from them even before, and they're frail enough I didn't specifically need a TA Raven unit to get the kill on them anyway.

I agree though that Hardy Bearing could add options without really skewing the meta in some negative way, which I like. It'd certainly be nice to have some freedom to run other units and not require ones that can one hard counter Hector, Ryoma and the rest. As it is you can't step into arena without being sure you have a team that can either specifically wall or one round them.

Now if we can just get a seal to nerf Reinhardt. Disable Brave effect seal?

[NekoKnight]

2 hours ago, Rezzy said:

It's not something like Cancel Affinity, which didn't really need to be added and just made Bridelia more broken than she already was.  It just hurts TA and Gem weapons which already had the drawback of being extra weak to their weak color.  It pretty much took away the niche of Raven users, taking away the one thing they were good at.  I haven't really heard many people complain about how OP Robin was to the point he needed a nerf.

I think it was a very good skill to add. Bow and daggers really dropped off in value after TA Raven users became so prominent. CA is a very specific counter (especially for colorless as it only counters Raven users) and takes up a valuable B slot, which is probably why so few people actually use it.

[Vaximillian]

4 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I kind of wish you could level up skills as well.

That’s my preferred outcome. My Reinhardt is stuck with DB2 otherwise :(

[Johann]

55 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I think it was a very good skill to add. Bow and daggers really dropped off in value after TA Raven users became so prominent. CA is a very specific counter (especially for colorless as it only counters Raven users) and takes up a valuable B slot, which is probably why so few people actually use it.

Anecdotally, I see way more Blade tomes than Raven tomes, so I don't feel like I'm taking a gamble in using colorless. One time I even went up against Nino, Linde, Lilina, and someone else, all with Blade tomes. All I had to do was plant Felicia on a defensive tile for an instant win. Anyway, I think it's more that people don't feel like daggers (except Poison+) are worth it, while I still see a few archers here and there (pretty much just Takumi and Cordelia though).

[NekoKnight]

1 hour ago, Johann said:

Anecdotally, I see way more Blade tomes than Raven tomes, so I don't feel like I'm taking a gamble in using colorless. One time I even went up against Nino, Linde, Lilina, and someone else, all with Blade tomes. All I had to do was plant Felicia on a defensive tile for an instant win. Anyway, I think it's more that people don't feel like daggers (except Poison+) are worth it, while I still see a few archers here and there (pretty much just Takumi and Cordelia though).

That's fair. Raven tome usage isn't what it used to be (even before CA came out) but earlier on, it was very common to see TA Cecilia and Robin which made running colorless a liability, in my experience.

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, Johann said:

Are people actually having a hard time due to Cancel Affinity? I can see Vantage Hectors and Ryomas ending runs (or at least hurting scores), but I can't say I've ever felt beaten because of CA.

4 hours ago, Alkaid said:

I can't tell how big a deal it is since nobody really seems to run it. I think it'd have to be as common as Vantage or other skills for it to really have much impact, which it currently isn't. My Camilla continues to function just as consistently as before CA came out, and I'd still feel comfortable investing in other TA Raven units if I wanted them. I pretty much only see a handful of Bride Cordelias going ham with it and Mathilda herself. And for the Cordelias, I never wanted to bait an attack from them even before, and they're frail enough I didn't specifically need a TA Raven unit to get the kill on them anyway.

The reason why Cancel Affinity is rare is because the sources of it are not common at all and it requires level 3 to be effective.

The current sources are Mathilda, who can be pulled at 4-star rarity, but needs to be 5-star rarity to teach Cancel Affinity 3, and Innes, who can only be pulled at 5-star rarity.

If you aren't seeing Cancel Affinity very often, it's most likely because you're not in a score range where opponents would likely have enough sources of the skill to actually use it. At the top of the Arena, there's a mono-green team running Cancel Affinity on three of its members (Hector, Sheena, and Amelia), which prevents a single Ruby Sword or Triangle Adept red unit from soloing the entire team.

 

3 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I think it was a very good skill to add. Bow and daggers really dropped off in value after TA Raven users became so prominent. CA is a very specific counter (especially for colorless as it only counters Raven users) and takes up a valuable B slot, which is probably why so few people actually use it.

Just about every Brave weapon user doesn't actually need their B slot, nor does Hector for that matter. Cancel Affinity isn't just for colorless units and it isn't just to counter Litrraven.

 

2 hours ago, Johann said:

Anecdotally, I see way more Blade tomes than Raven tomes, so I don't feel like I'm taking a gamble in using colorless. One time I even went up against Nino, Linde, Lilina, and someone else, all with Blade tomes. All I had to do was plant Felicia on a defensive tile for an instant win. Anyway, I think it's more that people don't feel like daggers (except Poison+) are worth it, while I still see a few archers here and there (pretty much just Takumi and Cordelia though).

19 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

That's fair. Raven tome usage isn't what it used to be (even before CA came out) but earlier on, it was very common to see TA Cecilia and Robin which made running colorless a liability, in my experience.

That's because putting Triangle Adept on an defense team is a terrible idea. Triangle Adept only works if the unit can choose its encounters, and the AI specifically cannot choose its encounters.

Cancel Affinity, in general, is not designed to be used by the player. It's designed to be used by the AI against the player because the player is more likely to be using Triangle Adept.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

33 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Just about every Brave weapon user doesn't actually need their B slot, nor does Hector for that matter. Cancel Affinity isn't just for colorless units and it isn't just to counter Litrraven.

What about Firesweep? They'd need their B-skill even less, since they don't even have to run Desperation, right?

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

What about Firesweep? They'd need their B-skill even less, since they don't even have to run Desperation, right?

Yeah.

Firesweep users have even fewer relevant choices for their B slot since it's basically limited to Weaponbreakers and mobility skills otherwise. All of the other common skills in the B slot (Desperation, Quick Riposte, Vantage) are completely ineffective due to Firesweep's effect.

I mostly omitted Firesweep because it's only applicable to lances and bows at the moment.

[Alkaid]

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The reason why Cancel Affinity is rare is because the sources of it are not common at all and it requires level 3 to be effective.

The current sources are Mathilda, who can be pulled at 4-star rarity, but needs to be 5-star rarity to teach Cancel Affinity 3, and Innes, who can only be pulled at 5-star rarity.

If you aren't seeing Cancel Affinity very often, it's most likely because you're not in a score range where opponents would likely have enough sources of the skill to actually use it. At the top of the Arena, there's a mono-green team running Cancel Affinity on three of its members (Hector, Sheena, and Amelia), which prevents a single Ruby Sword or Triangle Adept red unit from soloing the entire team.

That may be so, but the vast majority of the playerbase is not in that top 2-3k-ish player part of the meta, so I think my point still stands. For people below that threshold, it's not currently a consistent threat compared to Vantage users or Reinhardt which are everywhere in the standard meta. I'm not dismissing how effective it can be, but the top of the arena is kind of its own beast.

Also, while it may be tied only to Mathilda and Innes, non-Hector units with DC are a pretty common sight, and he's certainly rarer than now-4* Mathilda, so I don't think accessibility is the only issue. Maybe people in the more standard meta just don't see as much value in it yet either.

[Lushen]

I think it's fairly obvious the reason they let us collect them for a few weeks prior to them having a purpose indicates that whatever you can buy with them, it will be VERY expensive.  Perhaps 100 SC for...something. This is really exciting, it must be something good, not just a seal shop.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Lushen