Vanguard class synergy

[StarKnight]

So I've been planning a playthrough of Revelations for a bit, and for it I've really been considering have Corrin end up in the Vanguard class. And I started to wonder what skills, boon, and banes synergized with the class best.

So, What are some skills, boons and banes that synergize well with the Vanguard class? Looking at it, it looks to be a very physical class, that would appreciate a bit more speed but I'd like hear more about it.

[Sieghart]

1.- Well Vanguard class have low speed and resistance.

If you want he gain more speed i suggest the skill dancing blade from lodestar class it give +3 speed and -1 def ( keep in mind that this class is for one use) or  speedtaker can help you. It stack ultil +10 speed, but you need to kill enemies to gain the effect.

The other problem with vanguard class is his 0 resistance growth, if you have a mage problem equip him with tomebreaker.

2.-About  boons and banes you can go  +Str - luck, since the  avatar have  high strength growth  you will gain alot of str and nuke them with brute force.

[Zelgius]

I would think a strength, defence, or speed boon would compliment a Vanguard Corrin. Even without a speed boon, he would still have 50% speed growth, 45% if you went for a luck bane. I don't he really needs that much in terms of skills that Corrin doesn't have access to already.

[Koumal8]

It depends: do you want your Corrin to tank a lot or to be a fast damage dealer with still above average bulk? In the first case I'd say you want +Def/-Lck (Vanguard's lv.10 skill gives you 15 Crit Avo so...), while if you want to double and kill enemy units you'll NEED a +Spd boon (Vanguards are pretty slow and Heavy Blade, which is a VERY good skill, also lowers your speed by one). Or you could just stick a +Spd pair up bot to him (it depends if you favor attack stance or guard stance, for example one way I like to play is to pair units with pair up bonuses in mind to cover for everyone's weaknesses and then I always play with everyone in guard stance). A +Str boon is just completely unnecessary overkill: Vanguards have a hight strength stat, get Heavy Blade and eventually Strength Taker and Rev's Yato gives you Strength.

As far as classes are concerned, once again it depends: will you be reclassing to Vanguard immediately or will you first change to your talent class? Because if you first go Vanguardard you can start working on your Axe rank and you can choose an axe based class tree, while if you first go through your secondary class I'd say it's not worth it to lose Yato access.

Dragon talent is hands down the best Axe option for both defensive and offensive builds: good growths, flight and amazing skills all around (Str+2 couples very well with Heavy Blade, Lunge and Rally Defence are very good if you know how to use them, Savage Blow and eventually Trample and Swordbreaker are all friggin amazing).

Now, about sword options: Samurai has the best lategame skill in Swordfaire which coupled with Heavy Blade, the Omega Yato and the Vanguard's innate high strength will push your attack power through the roof; Duelist blow is also good; the problem is that Dragon Fang is a better offensive proc than Astra and Vantage is nothing to write home about (IMHO) and furthermore you pretty much have to go Vanguard first to put a few Str points under your belt (without a +Str boon a Samurai!Avatar can be underwhelming offensively). Mercenary is good for both +Spd and +Str options: amazing growths and the best enemy phase potential thanks to balanced skills (Good Fortune is trash, but Strong Risposte synergizes well both with Heavy Blade and Sol which is incidentally the most useful on enemy phase and has positive healing synergy with Aether; eventually Axebreaker and Shurikenbreaker are also possibly the two best breakers: the first completely shuts down those nasty crithappy Zerkers and the second counters those annoying Ninjas).

I'd say those are the best options. Hp+5 from Fighter might seem good, but Mercenary > Fighter thanks to Strong Risposte and a Vanguard has no need for the Zerker skills or growths. Cavalier might also be good: Open assault and 7-8 Mov are very good and Great Knight (as well as Hero, now that I think about it) shares Axe rank with Vanguard. Unfortunately you have to be a good tactician to make a good use of Shelter, Defender and Aegis are just bad (your Vanguard should nit be going anywhere near any Mage), DFang is a better proc than Luna (the activation rate ends up not being that much worse than Luna's and it adds a lot of damage regardless of your enemy's stats) and though I find Armored Blow a very good skill it comes late and in general I know it's not highly regarded. Dark Mage=>Dark Knight might be a suboptimal but fun choice: Heart Seeker will ensure you hit everything at 1 range and Lifetaker is an amazing recovery skill.

[StarKnight]

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions!

6 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

It depends: do you want your Corrin to tank a lot or to be a fast damage dealer with still above average bulk? In the first case I'd say you want +Def/-Lck (Vanguard's lv.10 skill gives you 15 Crit Avo so...), while if you want to double and kill enemy units you'll NEED a +Spd boon (Vanguards are pretty slow and Heavy Blade, which is a VERY good skill, also lowers your speed by one). Or you could just stick a +Spd pair up bot to him (it depends if you favor attack stance or guard stance, for example one way I like to play is to pair units with pair up bonuses in mind to cover for everyone's weaknesses and then I always play with everyone in guard stance). A +Str boon is just completely unnecessary overkill: Vanguards have a hight strength stat, get Heavy Blade and eventually Strength Taker and Rev's Yato gives you Strength.

As far as classes are concerned, once again it depends: will you be reclassing to Vanguard immediately or will you first change to your talent class? Because if you first go Vanguardard you can start working on your Axe rank and you can choose an axe based class tree, while if you first go through your secondary class I'd say it's not worth it to lose Yato access.

Dragon talent is hands down the best Axe option for both defensive and offensive builds: good growths, flight and amazing skills all around (Str+2 couples very well with Heavy Blade, Lunge and Rally Defence are very good if you know how to use them, Savage Blow and eventually Trample and Swordbreaker are all friggin amazing).

Now, about sword options: Samurai has the best lategame skill in Swordfaire which coupled with Heavy Blade, the Omega Yato and the Vanguard's innate high strength will push your attack power through the roof; Duelist blow is also good; the problem is that Dragon Fang is a better offensive proc than Astra and Vantage is nothing to write home about (IMHO) and furthermore you pretty much have to go Vanguard first to put a few Str points under your belt (without a +Str boon a Samurai!Avatar can be underwhelming offensively). Mercenary is good for both +Spd and +Str options: amazing growths and the best enemy phase potential thanks to balanced skills (Good Fortune is trash, but Strong Risposte synergizes well both with Heavy Blade and Sol which is incidentally the most useful on enemy phase and has positive healing synergy with Aether; eventually Axebreaker and Shurikenbreaker are also possibly the two best breakers: the first completely shuts down those nasty crithappy Zerkers and the second counters those annoying Ninjas).

I'd say those are the best options. Hp+5 from Fighter might seem good, but Mercenary > Fighter thanks to Strong Risposte and a Vanguard has no need for the Zerker skills or growths. Cavalier might also be good: Open assault and 7-8 Mov are very good and Great Knight (as well as Hero, now that I think about it) shares Axe rank with Vanguard. Unfortunately you have to be a good tactician to make a good use of Shelter, Defender and Aegis are just bad (your Vanguard should nit be going anywhere near any Mage), DFang is a better proc than Luna (the activation rate ends up not being that much worse than Luna's and it adds a lot of damage regardless of your enemy's stats) and though I find Armored Blow a very good skill it comes late and in general I know it's not highly regarded. Dark Mage=>Dark Knight might be a suboptimal but fun choice: Heart Seeker will ensure you hit everything at 1 range and Lifetaker is an amazing recovery skill.

I was initially thinking mostly offensive and reclassing for a bit to pick up some skills. Again thanks this has given me alot to think about. 

[SpearOfLies]

->mercenary->hero lv5-> dreadfighter lv35 -> vanguard.

Skill end setup: sol, even keen, iron will, aggressor, strengthtaker.

-> dreadfighter lv21/31 -> hero lv15 -> vanguard.

Skill end setup: sol, even keen, iron will, axebreaker, strengthtaker.

 

I feel remember that the revelation throw against you more bersekers(well, I still didn't finished it, just my grinding they show up so many times) than master ninja.

The skills you can feel free to change aren't sol and strengthtaker. Both are very valueable. 

You can use silver weapon with clarity without fireback too much and be more resistant against debuff. Aggressore and Heavy blade can help you trigger strenghttaker without too much help. Strong reposte is very good if you plan to use him as tank against melee. Having access to pratice katana, I don't feel worry about speed. You don't need to relying on proc skill to kill at end game.

You don't want waste the dreadfighter class?

Feel whatever marry Charlotte or Selena and pick the class you don't gonna have.

->Mercenary/Fighter->Herolv15->Vanguard.

skill end setup: sol, strong reposte/hp+5, gamble/veteran intuition, dragonfang/aether, strength taker.

 

I'm currently too tired to write more...

[Shadow Mir]

9 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

It depends: do you want your Corrin to tank a lot or to be a fast damage dealer with still above average bulk? In the first case I'd say you want +Def/-Lck (Vanguard's lv.10 skill gives you 15 Crit Avo so...), while if you want to double and kill enemy units you'll NEED a +Spd boon (Vanguards are pretty slow and Heavy Blade, which is a VERY good skill, also lowers your speed by one). Or you could just stick a +Spd pair up bot to him (it depends if you favor attack stance or guard stance, for example one way I like to play is to pair units with pair up bonuses in mind to cover for everyone's weaknesses and then I always play with everyone in guard stance). A +Str boon is just completely unnecessary overkill: Vanguards have a hight strength stat, get Heavy Blade and eventually Strength Taker and Rev's Yato gives you Strength.

As far as classes are concerned, once again it depends: will you be reclassing to Vanguard immediately or will you first change to your talent class? Because if you first go Vanguardard you can start working on your Axe rank and you can choose an axe based class tree, while if you first go through your secondary class I'd say it's not worth it to lose Yato access.

Dragon talent is hands down the best Axe option for both defensive and offensive builds: good growths, flight and amazing skills all around (Str+2 couples very well with Heavy Blade, Lunge and Rally Defence are very good if you know how to use them, Savage Blow and eventually Trample and Swordbreaker are all friggin amazing).

Now, about sword options: Samurai has the best lategame skill in Swordfaire which coupled with Heavy Blade, the Omega Yato and the Vanguard's innate high strength will push your attack power through the roof; Duelist blow is also good; the problem is that Dragon Fang is a better offensive proc than Astra and Vantage is nothing to write home about (IMHO) and furthermore you pretty much have to go Vanguard first to put a few Str points under your belt (without a +Str boon a Samurai!Avatar can be underwhelming offensively). Mercenary is good for both +Spd and +Str options: amazing growths and the best enemy phase potential thanks to balanced skills (Good Fortune is trash, but Strong Risposte synergizes well both with Heavy Blade and Sol which is incidentally the most useful on enemy phase and has positive healing synergy with Aether; eventually Axebreaker and Shurikenbreaker are also possibly the two best breakers: the first completely shuts down those nasty crithappy Zerkers and the second counters those annoying Ninjas).

I'd say those are the best options. Hp+5 from Fighter might seem good, but Mercenary > Fighter thanks to Strong Risposte and a Vanguard has no need for the Zerker skills or growths. Cavalier might also be good: Open assault and 7-8 Mov are very good and Great Knight (as well as Hero, now that I think about it) shares Axe rank with Vanguard. Unfortunately you have to be a good tactician to make a good use of Shelter, Defender and Aegis are just bad (your Vanguard should nit be going anywhere near any Mage), DFang is a better proc than Luna (the activation rate ends up not being that much worse than Luna's and it adds a lot of damage regardless of your enemy's stats) and though I find Armored Blow a very good skill it comes late and in general I know it's not highly regarded. Dark Mage=>Dark Knight might be a suboptimal but fun choice: Heart Seeker will ensure you hit everything at 1 range and Lifetaker is an amazing recovery skill.

Erm, I honestly fail to see why you're mentioning level 15 skills - it ain't like they're gonna be relevant for very long. Also, I disagree on Savage Blow - it looks amazing on paper, but it doesn't measure up in actual practice IMO. Sol, too, is one of those skills that's hardly fantastic. Otherwise, I agree with most of your points.

1 hour ago, SpearOfLies said:

->mercenary->hero lv5-> dreadfighter lv35 -> vanguard.

Skill end setup: sol, even keen, iron will, aggressor, strengthtaker.

-> dreadfighter lv21/31 -> hero lv15 -> vanguard.

Skill end setup: sol, even keen, iron will, axebreaker, strengthtaker.

 

I feel remember that the revelation throw against you more bersekers(well, I still didn't finished it, just my grinding they show up so many times) than master ninja.

The skills you can feel free to change aren't sol and strengthtaker. Both are very valueable. 

You can use silver weapon with clarity without fireback too much and be more resistant against debuff. Aggressore and Heavy blade can help you trigger strenghttaker without too much help. Strong reposte is very good if you plan to use him as tank against melee. Having access to pratice katana, I don't feel worry about speed. You don't need to relying on proc skill to kill at end game.

You don't want waste the dreadfighter class?

Feel whatever marry Charlotte or Selena and pick the class you don't gonna have.

->Mercenary/Fighter->Herolv15->Vanguard.

skill end setup: sol, strong reposte/hp+5, gamble/veteran intuition, dragonfang/aether, strength taker.

 

I'm currently too tired to write more...

See above on Sol and the level 35 skills. Also, even with Clarity, I would still be wary of using a silver weapon because of the -5 crit evade... Unless you also used Veteran Intuition, that is.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Koumal8]

4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Erm, I honestly fail to see why you're mentioning level 15 skills - it ain't like they're gonna be relevant for very long. Also, I disagree on Savage Blow - it looks amazing on paper, but it doesn't measure up in actual practice IMO. Sol, too, is one of those skills that's hardly fantastic. Otherwise, I agree with most of your points.

  Well, I did say that eventually they come into play and are very good: I know they're not relevant for long, I just feel they're still worth mentioning (if they're good). Savage Blow is free aoe damage and I never found it difficult to make good use of it, it's basically a better version than Poison Strike and Rev is full of really tough Generals that love to go in Attack Stance (like most enemy units). And I know you're not a fan of Sol but especially on a Vanguard one proc on enemy phase is more than enough to heal you quite a bit and the best thing of Vanguard is that it can stack with Aether: 20 skill and you're looking at a 28% chance of healing yourself with each hit, 30 skill and it's now a reliable (at least for me it's reliable) 40% of proccing something with each hit (though DFang does get in the way of this healing synergy, so be ware). Luna +DFang might be good, but a Vanguard has so much strength that damaging enemies is NOT one of his problems, so Aether + Sol is better proc stacking (by the way, I highly discourage picking up Hoshidan Unity, it doesn't make procs all that more reliable and is IMHO one hell of a wasted skill slot). I know it's not clever to rely on them (you can't plan out your turn with a proc happening in mind) but they bring a welcome additional chance of defeating your enemy (a bit like crits, even though I also know you consider them more potent in the enemy's hands).

And Swordfaire is worth mentioning to me simply because the thought of stacking SFaire and Rev Yato for a flat out +25 damage before factoring in Strength is hilarious to me.

Keep in mind I haven't taken into account DLC and seals, so you're actually more flexible than one could think after reading my essay: you could take a Cavalier talent and marry Hana for something like this: Nohr Prince to lv.10 => Vanguard to lv.10 => Paladin/Great Knight to lv.11 => Swordmaster to lv.15 => Vanguard to lv. 20 ; this way you get to pick up Elbow Room as well.

[SpearOfLies]

5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

See above on Sol and the level 35 skills. Also, even with Clarity, I would still be wary of using a silver weapon because of the -5 crit evade... Unless you also used Veteran Intuition, that is.

We already talked about Sol but if you really want to talk again, feel free to say again why isn't good and what skill you prefer instead. 

 

Unless you don't check if your enemy actually can crit you or you keep the silver weapon on enemy turn(which is already itself a very bad decision), you never gonna bother about this -5 crit evade.

 

They are end game scenario. Corrin is so good and Mercenary/DreadFighter are solid class that I don't think he even will have problem early/mid game.

[Shadow Mir]

17 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

  Well, I did say that eventually they come into play and are very good: I know they're not relevant for long, I just feel they're still worth mentioning (if they're good). Savage Blow is free aoe damage and I never found it difficult to make good use of it, it's basically a better version than Poison Strike and Rev is full of really tough Generals that love to go in Attack Stance (like most enemy units). And I know you're not a fan of Sol but especially on a Vanguard one proc on enemy phase is more than enough to heal you quite a bit and the best thing of Vanguard is that it can stack with Aether: 20 skill and you're looking at a 28% chance of healing yourself with each hit, 30 skill and it's now a reliable (at least for me it's reliable) 40% of proccing something with each hit (though DFang does get in the way of this healing synergy, so be ware). Luna +DFang might be good, but a Vanguard has so much strength that damaging enemies is NOT one of his problems, so Aether + Sol is better proc stacking (by the way, I highly discourage picking up Hoshidan Unity, it doesn't make procs all that more reliable and is IMHO one hell of a wasted skill slot). I know it's not clever to rely on them (you can't plan out your turn with a proc happening in mind) but they bring a welcome additional chance of defeating your enemy (a bit like crits, even though I also know you consider them more potent in the enemy's hands).

And Swordfaire is worth mentioning to me simply because the thought of stacking SFaire and Rev Yato for a flat out +25 damage before factoring in Strength is hilarious to me.

Keep in mind I haven't taken into account DLC and seals, so you're actually more flexible than one could think after reading my essay: you could take a Cavalier talent and marry Hana for something like this: Nohr Prince to lv.10 => Vanguard to lv.10 => Paladin/Great Knight to lv.11 => Swordmaster to lv.15 => Vanguard to lv. 20 ; this way you get to pick up Elbow Room as well.

Yeah, if by "eventually", you mean "when endgame's right around the corner", that is. Being useful is one thing, but being useful for more than like 3 chapters at most is another thing - and needless to say, the level 15 skills flunk that test miserably (there's a REASON why I don't entertain level 15 skills in discussion EXCEPT on Felicia and Jakob...). And on that note, I don't see why you're mentioning the possibility of maxing out your level before endgame - that reeks of overreaching, if you ask me. Going back to Savage Blow, I don't see it hitting a number of enemy units that's worth mentioning unless you foolishly overextend the unit with it. As for Sol, I think it's pretty good... In pre-Awakening games, that is. I feel it's a wasted skill slot in Fates, with it falling victim to "It Only Works Once" syndrome. Basically, if Sol doesn't activate against a healthy enemy, it might as well have not triggered at all.

17 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

We already talked about Sol but if you really want to talk again, feel free to say again why isn't good and what skill you prefer instead. 

 

Unless you don't check if your enemy actually can crit you or you keep the silver weapon on enemy turn(which is already itself a very bad decision), you never gonna bother about this -5 crit evade.

 

They are end game scenario. Corrin is so good and Mercenary/DreadFighter are solid class that I don't think he even will have problem early/mid game.

See above for why I don't see Sol as that good. As for skills I'd run in its place, how about Veteran Intuition, Strong Riposte, HP +5, Lunge, Elbow Room, etc.?

It'd only not be a worry if you were limiting silver weapons to use as finishers or for dual strikes.

[SpearOfLies]

44 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Yeah, if by "eventually", you mean "when endgame's right around the corner", that is. Being useful is one thing, but being useful for more than like 3 chapters at most is another thing - and needless to say, the level 15 skills flunk that test miserably (there's a REASON why I don't entertain level 15 skills in discussion EXCEPT on Felicia and Jakob...). And on that note, I don't see why you're mentioning the possibility of maxing out your level before endgame - that reeks of overreaching, if you ask me. Going back to Savage Blow, I don't see it hitting a number of enemy units that's worth mentioning unless you foolishly overextend the unit with it. As for Sol, I think it's pretty good... In pre-Awakening games, that is. I feel it's a wasted skill slot in Fates, with it falling victim to "It Only Works Once" syndrome. Basically, if Sol doesn't activate against a healthy enemy, it might as well have not triggered at all.

See above for why I don't see Sol as that good. As for skills I'd run in its place, how about Veteran Intuition, Strong Riposte, HP +5, Lunge, Elbow Room, etc.?

It'd only not be a worry if you were limiting silver weapons to use as finishers or for dual strikes.

As vanguard most of time you can have other take the last hit. You are not going to waste the huge amount of damage in low hp enemy unless they are the only enemy on range of vanguard. I'm sure at least 75% vanguard is going to fight full hp enemies.

Most of time you are using you vanguard as tank. When sol trigger, your healer(which I assume is a promoted one) don't need heal him anymore so he can help somewhere else or attack the weaked units.

 

Knowing how you dislike crit, I will not comment Veteran intuition(still very good skill). Strong Riposte and Elbow Room are also very useful skill but HP+5 and Lunge are much more situational and less impactful than Sol. The enemy just need to have 10hp to sol get the value of HP+5. I don't remember any situation that lunge is actual usefull.

 

With clarity you can do that more often and with huge vanguard damage+silver weapon, you can OHKO an enemy. It's situational but it's still an extra option you can use to make the situation eeasier.

Edited August 1, 2017 by SpearOfLies

[Koumal8]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Yeah, if by "eventually", you mean "when endgame's right around the corner", that is. Being useful is one thing, but being useful for more than like 3 chapters at most is another thing - and needless to say, the level 15 skills flunk that test miserably (there's a REASON why I don't entertain level 15 skills in discussion EXCEPT on Felicia and Jakob...). And on that note, I don't see why you're mentioning the possibility of maxing out your level before endgame - that reeks of overreaching, if you ask me. Going back to Savage Blow, I don't see it hitting a number of enemy units that's worth mentioning unless you foolishly overextend the unit with it. As for Sol, I think it's pretty good... In pre-Awakening games, that is. I feel it's a wasted skill slot in Fates, with it falling victim to "It Only Works Once" syndrome. Basically, if Sol doesn't activate against a healthy enemy, it might as well have not triggered at all.

  Where did I mention that it's possible to max your level? I most certainly didn't, it's pretty much impossible, I think you misunderstood something.

I'm doing a Lunatic Revelations playthrough right now, I'm on Ch.16 and Savage Blow would have been immensely useful against those Paladins and Generals: none of your units ORKOs them without effective weaponry (with the exception of maybe Camilla) and they always go in Attack Stance, meaning Savage Blow would have worked wonders against them, especially because ORKOing them with an Armorslayer or Hammer from full health means taking such a huge hit. Also I know I'm not going to change your opinion on Sol, so just out of curiosity: what do you think of Sol+Aether proc stacking in Fates?

2 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

Knowing how you dislike crit, I will not comment Veteran intuition(still very good skill). Strong Riposte and Elbow Room are also very useful skill but HP+5 and Lunge are much more situational and less impactful than Sol. The enemy just need to have 10hp to sol get the value of HP+5. I don't remember any situation that lunge is actual usefull.

Lol what? HP+5 is most definitely NOT situational in low HP emblem and Sol (which by the way has less availability) will never make up for the lack of it: the point of HP+5 is to give you more HP since turn 1 and it works whether Sol procs or not. Also sorry but if you can't make use of Lunge it's entirely your fault: being a repositioning skill you have to be a good tactician (I'm not really) who can plan out very well his turns to me use of it. There are entire LTC strategies that we could never begin to imagine that rely on Lunge and Shelter (a skill that is only slightly easier to use). Only now that I'm tackling a Lunatic Rev no Guard Stance playthrough am I starting to understand how it works: its main uses seem to be pulling enemies off forts, bringing a threatening enemy closer so that you can take them out on PP more easily and repositioning your units/Camilla for optimal Attack Stance; it comboes sweetly with ranged weapons and I'd say Savage Blow.

[Shadow Mir]

12 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

  Where did I mention that it's possible to max your level? I most certainly didn't, it's pretty much impossible, I think you misunderstood something.

I'm doing a Lunatic Revelations playthrough right now, I'm on Ch.16 and Savage Blow would have been immensely useful against those Paladins and Generals: none of your units ORKOs them without effective weaponry (with the exception of maybe Camilla) and they always go in Attack Stance, meaning Savage Blow would have worked wonders against them, especially because ORKOing them with an Armorslayer or Hammer from full health means taking such a huge hit. Also I know I'm not going to change your opinion on Sol, so just out of curiosity: what do you think of Sol+Aether proc stacking in Fates?

Maybe I did. But your example did show a unit reaching max level.

I don't really think it's that great either - with stats being scaled down from Awakening, Sol/Aether procstacking isn't as reliable. Also, I don't remember seeing any Paladins in chapter 16. On top of that, I'd say that the one unit most likely to get Savage Blow is best reclassed to Wyvern Lord (because tbf, I think Malig Knight's hardly fantastic).

14 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

As vanguard most of time you can have other take the last hit. You are not going to waste the huge amount of damage in low hp enemy unless they are the only enemy on range of vanguard. I'm sure at least 75% vanguard is going to fight full hp enemies.

Most of time you are using you vanguard as tank. When sol trigger, your healer(which I assume is a promoted one) don't need heal him anymore so he can help somewhere else or attack the weaked units.

 

Knowing how you dislike crit, I will not comment Veteran intuition(still very good skill). Strong Riposte and Elbow Room are also very useful skill but HP+5 and Lunge are much more situational and less impactful than Sol. The enemy just need to have 10hp to sol get the value of HP+5. I don't remember any situation that lunge is actual usefull.

 

With clarity you can do that more often and with huge vanguard damage+silver weapon, you can OHKO an enemy. It's situational but it's still an extra option you can use to make the situation eeasier.

And you don't see a problem with Sol needing to activate against a healthy enemy to be effective? Because I can, as plain as day.

Again, that only works if you get lucky and have it activate against a healthy enemy, otherwise Sol's healing effect is nothing worth mentioning.

I disagree on Sol being more useful than Hp +5 and Lunge - the former is a permanent boost as long as the skill's equipped, and with this game being Low HP Emblem... need I say more? As for the latter, I can see it being used to move an enemy that's otherwise out of range into attack range of more allied units or to move them off of forts, making them easier to kill.

I call BS there - even with a Silver, I don't see a Vanguard one-shotting an enemy, which you'd need to do to avert the chance that the crit evade penalty bites you in the ass (without a critical hit, at least).

Edited August 1, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SpearOfLies]

14 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

  Where did I mention that it's possible to max your level? I most certainly didn't, it's pretty much impossible, I think you misunderstood something.

I'm doing a Lunatic Revelations playthrough right now, I'm on Ch.16 and Savage Blow would have been immensely useful against those Paladins and Generals: none of your units ORKOs them without effective weaponry (with the exception of maybe Camilla) and they always go in Attack Stance, meaning Savage Blow would have worked wonders against them, especially because ORKOing them with an Armorslayer or Hammer from full health means taking such a huge hit. Also I know I'm not going to change your opinion on Sol, so just out of curiosity: what do you think of Sol+Aether proc stacking in Fates?

Lol what? HP+5 is most definitely NOT situational in low HP emblem and Sol (which by the way has less availability) will never make up for the lack of it: the point of HP+5 is to give you more HP since turn 1 and it works whether Sol procs or not. Also sorry but if you can't make use of Lunge it's entirely your fault: being a repositioning skill you have to be a good tactician (I'm not really) who can plan out very well his turns to me use of it. There are entire LTC strategies that we could never begin to imagine that rely on Lunge and Shelter (a skill that is only slightly easier to use). Only now that I'm tackling a Lunatic Rev no Guard Stance playthrough am I starting to understand how it works: its main uses seem to be pulling enemies off forts, bringing a threatening enemy closer so that you can take them out on PP more easily and repositioning your units/Camilla for optimal Attack Stance; it comboes sweetly with ranged weapons and I'd say Savage Blow.

Shelter is one of most broken basic class skill. Compare it to lunge is nonsense. Just protect your overextended fragile unit is already better than lunge. Attack a second time with unit by sacrificing a shelter unit and a weak unit without using a songtress. Using multiple times a songtress to spread more her buff. There so many thing you can do with shelter.

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Maybe I did. But your example did show a unit reaching max level.

I don't really think it's that great either - with stats being scaled down from Awakening, Sol/Aether procstacking isn't as reliable. Also, I don't remember seeing any Paladins in chapter 16. On top of that, I'd say that the one unit most likely to get Savage Blow is best reclassed to Wyvern Lord (because tbf, I think Malig Knight's hardly fantastic).

And you don't see a problem with Sol needing to activate against a healthy enemy to be effective? Because I can, as plain as day.

Again, that only works if you get lucky and have it activate against a healthy enemy, otherwise Sol's healing effect is nothing worth mentioning.

I disagree on Sol being more useful than Hp +5 and Lunge - the former is a permanent boost as long as the skill's equipped, and with this game being Low HP Emblem... need I say more? As for the latter, I can see it being used to move an enemy that's otherwise out of range into attack range of more allied units or to move them off of forts, making them easier to kill.

I call BS there - even with a Silver, I don't see a Vanguard one-shotting an enemy, which you'd need to do to avert the chance that the crit evade penalty bites you in the ass (without a critical hit, at least).

How many times you enter on less than 5 hp to make HP+5 revelant? Damage boost and damage reduction will be always more revelant because they always raise or reduce damage. As tank you expected to fight multiple enemy on enemy turn. Just Def+2 against 3 enemies is already more revelant than HP+5 (without talking you have multiple chance to proc Sol). Def+2 will stacking value during all the chapter. HP+5 will be revelant only when there is so much damage to enter 5 less HP. It's HP+5 a good skill? Yes, it's extreme sweet skill on early-mid phase. It's so good to take Sol slot? Absolute nope. Sol give you much more flexibility and it's far more revelant on end game. It's Levant opinion on that skill revelant? Nope, he bench both Arthur and Charlotte. Corrin is OP regardless. All the fighter route is crap for him. He gonna mostlikely take the skill on other's castle than spend 2000 gold on reclass. On fates, def and res is always better than hp unless you have very crappy hp growth(Rinka and Nix). It's also one of reason you bench Effie late game.

 

On all my first conquest playthrought, only 2 lunge was actual revelant.

Most of times, the position of unit killed by the lunge unit is used by your next unit to kill another one.

Most of times, the position of unit you can lunge is worst than the position you attack from or the position you can bait him.

Most of times, lunge doesn't make any difference.

All the times, the enemies that you really want to lunge, you can't lunge them.

I also thought it was a very good skill the first time but Camilla kill anything and Beruka don't want enter on mage/archer/ninja range.

Should I also say you don't like use them either?

 

The difference between bronze and silver is 8 might and 10 hit.

Chapter 10 conquest lunatic:

- If I remember correctly, Effie need only 2 extra strength to OHKO a sky knight with an iron lance so a normal knight need around 5 extra might to OHKO a sky knight.

- My diviner!corrin with life and death(nobility and dragon fang disable) need 2 extra mag to OHKO a ninja with fire. You need 12 extra might to kill a ninja with a normal diviner. So assuming you need that might to kill a unit you have weapon disadvantage and the unit have good res, how much might you need to OHKO a enemy with weapon disadvantage and bad res?

 

I don't think it's unlikely scenario to OHKO with vanguard with a silver weapon unless you are only fighting tank unit.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

How many times you enter on less than 5 hp to make HP+5 revelant? Damage boost and damage reduction will be always more revelant because they always raise or reduce damage. As tank you expected to fight multiple enemy on enemy turn. Just Def+2 against 3 enemies is already more revelant than HP+5 (without talking you have multiple chance to proc Sol). Def+2 will stacking value during all the chapter. HP+5 will be revelant only when there is so much damage to enter 5 less HP. It's HP+5 a good skill? Yes, it's extreme sweet skill on early-mid phase. It's so good to take Sol slot? Absolute nope. Sol give you much more flexibility and it's far more revelant on end game. It's Levant opinion on that skill revelant? Nope, he bench both Arthur and Charlotte. Corrin is OP regardless. All the fighter route is crap for him. He gonna mostlikely take the skill on other's castle than spend 2000 gold on reclass. On fates, def and res is always better than hp unless you have very crappy hp growth(Rinka and Nix). It's also one of reason you bench Effie late game.

 

On all my first conquest playthrought, only 2 lunge was actual revelant.

Most of times, the position of unit killed by the lunge unit is used by your next unit to kill another one.

Most of times, the position of unit you can lunge is worst than the position you attack from or the position you can bait him.

Most of times, lunge doesn't make any difference.

All the times, the enemies that you really want to lunge, you can't lunge them.

I also thought it was a very good skill the first time but Camilla kill anything and Beruka don't want enter on mage/archer/ninja range.

Should I also say you don't like use them either?

 

The difference between bronze and silver is 8 might and 10 hit.

Chapter 10 conquest lunatic:

- If I remember correctly, Effie need only 2 extra strength to OHKO a sky knight with an iron lance so a normal knight need around 5 extra might to OHKO a sky knight.

- My diviner!corrin with life and death(nobility and dragon fang disable) need 2 extra mag to OHKO a ninja with fire. You need 12 extra might to kill a ninja with a normal diviner. So assuming you need that might to kill a unit you have weapon disadvantage and the unit have good res, how much might you need to OHKO a enemy with weapon disadvantage and bad res?

 

I don't think it's unlikely scenario to OHKO with vanguard with a silver weapon unless you are only fighting tank unit.

As I see it, Hp +5 can still add up to being able to take an extra hit without croaking and needing to restart. As for Def and Res +2, I'd say that depends on the unit - a unit with weak defense or resistance probably won't get much help from them. Also, as for the reclass comment, there are only so many heart seals available for most of the game.

I tend to use Camilla anyway, at least in Conquest - she still has a good personal skill to make use of.

Bold: Oh come on. You're not going to be able to convince me saying stuff like that and not bothering to back it up, so just give up. Anyway, looking at Rev chapter 27 on Hard, you'd need over 60 atk just to OHKO the more fragile enemy units (Adventurers, Sorcerers). Vanguard only caps at 36 Strength before modifiers. What makes you think you can OHKO anything else reasonably, especially with a weapon that cuts your stats every time it's used in battle???

Edited August 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Koumal8]

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Maybe I did. But your example did show a unit reaching max level.

I don't really think it's that great either - with stats being scaled down from Awakening, Sol/Aether procstacking isn't as reliable. Also, I don't remember seeing any Paladins in chapter 16. On top of that, I'd say that the one unit most likely to get Savage Blow is best reclassed to Wyvern Lord (because tbf, I think Malig Knight's hardly fantastic).

Yeah, sorry, that was just to say that you switch to Vanguard permanently with that class path 

I know there are no Paladins in that chapter, they're mainly a problem in Ch. 13-14-17, with Generals being their partners in crime in Ch.14-15-16. You don't really have anyone with access to SBlow in those unless you're REALLY showing favoritism towards Camilla, it was just to explain that Rev is chok full of hard to kill enemies who love to go in Attack Stance, the perfect environment in which to use SBlow (even after these chapters obviously). I will admit though that it depends how much usage of My Castle you allow: I use it to buy unlimited seals at any point in the game and nothing else because I find reclassing shenanigans one of the best parts of the game and I don't see it as cheating because it actually drains a lot of your resources and it's not broken lile stupid skill buying. Anyway, I never found it difficult to use Camilla as a Malig Knight until she reaches lv.5 and to reclass her only after that.

11 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

On all my first conquest playthrought, only 2 lunge was actual revelant.

Most of times, the position of unit killed by the lunge unit is used by your next unit to kill another one.

Most of times, the position of unit you can lunge is worst than the position you attack from or the position you can bait him.

Most of times, lunge doesn't make any difference.

All the times, the enemies that you really want to lunge, you can't lunge them.

I also thought it was a very good skill the first time but Camilla kill anything and Beruka don't want enter on mage/archer/ninja range.

How about no, no and just... no? Nothing of what you're saying applies to my experience with lunge, it just doesn't. Your first statement only applies if you're fighting in like... a single tile corridor, of which there's none in Fates or very few. Your second one just makes no sense and is outright false if you're lunging a unit on a tile with terrain bonuses. I'm fairly sure the only enemies you can't lunge are bosses. And what the hell is your last statement supposed to mean? Camilla doesn't ORKO forever and when she does you might want her to lunge something with a Hand Axe to feed the kill to another unit and after Beruka gets going she's an amazing lunger of physical enemies thanks to her bulk. They're also some of your best units to send against ninjas thanks to WTA and bulk. And I didn't mean that Lunge units are good against ranged units, I said that ranged WEAPONS are good with Lunge because they extend your lunging range and allow you to lunge threatening enemies without fearing retaliation. If you know how to use it, Lunge is good, if you don't it's bad. 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Koumal8

[SpearOfLies]

8 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

As I see it, Hp +5 can still add up to being able to take an extra hit without croaking and needing to restart. As for Def and Res +2, I'd say that depends on the unit - a unit with weak defense or resistance probably won't get much help from them. Also, as for the reclass comment, there are only so many heart seals available for most of the game.

I tend to use Camilla anyway, at least in Conquest - she still has a good personal skill to make use of.

Bold: Oh come on. You're not going to be able to convince me saying stuff like that and not bothering to back it up, so just give up. Anyway, looking at Rev chapter 27 on Hard, you'd need over 60 atk just to OHKO the more fragile enemy units (Adventurers, Sorcerers). Vanguard only caps at 36 Strength before modifiers. What makes you think you can OHKO anything else reasonably, especially with a weapon that cuts your stats every time it's used in battle???

I don't back it up? You are the one who didn't bother to back it up.

 

Also you give me so easy task to reach 60 atk with "last" chapter? I can free pick the level 15/35 skill, right? 36 strength+7 aggressor+3 heavy blade+12 silver weapon= 58 atk. Wasn't 60 atk so difficult task? Strength tonic, food, pair up, Rally strength, weapon advantage, forge and strengthtaker can easily fill the gap and go over. Clarity restore your stats faster and strengthtaker can fill it if you really need to attack a second time the same turn. Using silver weapon on enemy phase is suicide regardless.

By having strenghtaker you can OHKO this fragile units using weaker weapon than silver later and the silver weapon is just an extra tool you can use if you need to make your situation temporary easier, not something you will use for the whole chapter.

Why OHKO is useful? You can just spend one unit on one enemy instead of two or more. You make your army more versatile.

 

4 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

Yeah, sorry, that was just to say that you switch to Vanguard permanently with that class path 

I know there are no Paladins in that chapter, they're mainly a problem in Ch. 13-14-17, with Generals being their partners in crime in Ch.14-15-16. You don't really have anyone with access to SBlow in those unless you're REALLY showing favoritism towards Camilla, it was just to explain that Rev is chok full of hard to kill enemies who love to go in Attack Stance, the perfect environment in which to use SBlow (even after these chapters obviously). I will admit though that it depends how much usage of My Castle you allow: I use it to buy unlimited seals at any point in the game and nothing else because I find reclassing shenanigans one of the best parts of the game and I don't see it as cheating because it actually drains a lot of your resources and it's not broken lile stupid skill buying. Anyway, I never found it difficult to use Camilla as a Malig Knight until she reaches lv.5 and to reclass her only after that.

How about no, no and just... no? Nothing of what you're saying applies to my experience with lunge, it just doesn't. Your first statement only applies if you're fighting in like... a single tile corridor, of which there's none in Fates or very few. Your second one just makes no sense and is outright false if you're lunging a unit on a tile with terrain bonuses. I'm fairly sure the only enemies you can't lunge are bosses. And what the hell is your last statement supposed to mean? Camilla doesn't ORKO forever and when she does you might want her to lunge something with a Hand Axe to feed the kill to another unit and after Beruka gets going she's an amazing lunger of physical enemies thanks to her bulk. They're also some of your best units to send against ninjas thanks to WTA and bulk. And I didn't mean that Lunge units are good against ranged units, I said that ranged WEAPONS are good with Lunge because they extend your lunging range and allow you to lunge threatening enemies without fearing retaliation. If you know how to use it, Lunge is good, if you don't it's bad. 

The first statement apply also to:

-Units with limit of moviment range is exactly that tile which apply to all the foot units while horse unit is more rare scenario. 

-Other tiles is need to other units to kill enemies or filled with enemy that your unit cannot safely kill but you need him here to buff/debuff with his aura skill.

The second statement show how limit is your understanding of positioning and Conquest:

-Do you prefer get a position on a fort which you will be attacked by multiple enemies/one enemy can kill you or a plain tile where you will just be attacked by one enemy you can deal or you are safe from any attack? Do you prefer block your enemies path from reach you fragile units or stay on terrain bonus tile but have your fragile units totally exposed?

-Conquest have very few terrain bonus tile you can take advantage. I believe on my conquest playthrough have less than 10% battle where my units was on an terrain bonus tile. Revelations have much more terrain bonus tile you can take advantage but there is still very limited amount of scenario you want steal from your enemies.

 

There is only two conditions that negate lunge:

-One of units have 0 moviment.

-One of units is on tile that the other unit cannot go.

So you can actually lunge boss and there are moments you cannot lunge normal enemies.

 

I see no point to lunge a ninja and take the debuff than directly kill him and I don't remember any moments I actually need to lunge a enemy to feed to my underleveled units.

[Koumal8]

3 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

-Units with limit of moviment range is exactly that tile which apply to all the foot units while horse unit is more rare scenario. 

 Thanks for the specifics on which enemies can be lunged but you're still not making sense. In this case for example, lunging is in fact a bad choice: yet I rarely find myself in such a situation.

3 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

-Other tiles is need to other units to kill enemies or filled with enemy that your unit cannot safely kill but you need him here to buff/debuff with his aura skill.

This is a single tile corridor. Or if it's an open space it means there are other tiles you can put your units in and if the right units are not in range it's... entirely your fault.

3 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

-Do you prefer get a position on a fort which you will be attacked by multiple enemies/one enemy can kill you or a plain tile where you will just be attacked by one enemy you can deal or you are safe from any attack? Do you prefer block your enemies path from reach you fragile units or stay on terrain bonus tile but have your fragile units totally exposed?

What stupid questions are these? If I can get anywhere on enemy phase and be sure I survive I go there, if I fear I'll die I don't and Lunge has nothing to do with that. I don't see how Lunge being able to pull enemies off forts/woods is a bad thing to you, I really don't. Even the second question is so rhetorical I won't bother answering, I'd just like you to notice how both these questions of yours have nothing to do with Lunge, you could be lecturing a newbie player on how to play FE in general: they're about basic notions on units placing. And Lunge, being a repositioning skill, only gives you more options, which is... a bad thing to you?

3 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

-Conquest have very few terrain bonus tile you can take advantage. I believe on my conquest playthrough have less than 10% battle where my units was on an terrain bonus tile. Revelations have much more terrain bonus tile you can take advantage but there is still very limited amount of scenario you want steal from your enemies.

Actually I remember all three paths having quite enough terrain tiles to make them as relevant as in other games (and in particular a few annoying woods-heavy maps in Conquest ch.19 and Rev ch.17, maybe a few more I can't remember). Unless you can give me proof that Fates has a distinctive lack of terrain tiles this discussion is pretty sterile.

3 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

I see no point to lunge a ninja and take the debuff than directly kill him and I don't remember any moments I actually need to lunge a enemy to feed to my underleveled units.

I fear you might be mixing things up a bit once again: first of all I never said that lunging ninjas is especially clever, it entirely depends on the placement of both enemy units and allies, what I said is that, regardless of Lunge, Camilla and Beruka are IMO good units to face ninjas while you for some reason stated that they souldn't be fighting them. If you can ORKO them with Camilla/Beruka/anyone in order not to eat any debuff, good, do it, if you can't maybe you can Lunge them to bring them in range of another unit who can, maybe it's not necessary, it depends. And if you never find Camilla's weakening abilities useful when she's like 10 levels ahead of your army then I don't know what to say, I do, and I remember a few instances where I was able to bring a weakened enemy in range of a lower leveled unit with Camilla in order to kill them (I never talked about underleveled units, there's no such thing unless you're playing Rev where you might as well grind whichever unfortunate soul you decide to deploy seeing how the developers didn't bother appropriately leveling anyone past chapter 11).

What I think you're failing to understand is that Lunge is not like a unit's speed stat in the GBA games where you'll know for every chapter what enemies the unit will on average be able to double with which weapons and how good they'll fare in general, nor is it a simple skill like a proc or a damage boosting skill which are easier to "rank": Lunge usefulness entirely depends on your units placement skills and so many variables are in play it's difficult to say when and where Lunge is useless (ally units deployed, enemy units, general unit placement and terrain etc...). That is why I'm saying Lunge is good only if you know how to use it.

And I'm not even saying Lunge is the best skill in the game: honestly? I don't know! This is my first playthrough using it and there some chapters where I completely forget to use it! I still recommend looking up some LTC strats for Fates which make heavy use of both Lunge and Shelter (I remember a Conquest LTC playthrough from I think Chiki on Youtube which dealt with the infamous Berserker+General room on Ch.26 with Lunge+Savage Blow!Camilla and, at least in my view, Lunge being good in LTC only shows how such a skill is only as good as you can make it)

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

I don't back it up? You are the one who didn't bother to back it up.

 

Also you give me so easy task to reach 60 atk with "last" chapter? I can free pick the level 15/35 skill, right? 36 strength+7 aggressor+3 heavy blade+12 silver weapon= 58 atk. Wasn't 60 atk so difficult task? Strength tonic, food, pair up, Rally strength, weapon advantage, forge and strengthtaker can easily fill the gap and go over. Clarity restore your stats faster and strengthtaker can fill it if you really need to attack a second time the same turn. Using silver weapon on enemy phase is suicide regardless.

By having strenghtaker you can OHKO this fragile units using weaker weapon than silver later and the silver weapon is just an extra tool you can use if you need to make your situation temporary easier, not something you will use for the whole chapter.

Why OHKO is useful? You can just spend one unit on one enemy instead of two or more. You make your army more versatile.

Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot.

Okay, let's put all this setup under the microscope... Aggressor? Comes at level 35. Strengthtaker? Ditto. Also, it requires you to have attacked and defeated enemies before it takes effect. Cooking? You can only get two foods reliably without having to go to other castles - and if neither of those is an attack food... So much for that. And that's not even getting into the cook being random. Forging is nigh unusable without going to other castles too, not to mention potentially horrifically expensive for something that ain't worth it. Pair up has the downside of using up two units' turns at once, which isn't something I'd make light of. Rally Strength requires someone to have spent time as a Berserker, and you know how much I despise Berserkers. WTA is only worth one point.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SpearOfLies]

2 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

 Thanks for the specifics on which enemies can be lunged but you're still not making sense. In this case for example, lunging is in fact a bad choice: yet I rarely find myself in such a situation.

This is a single tile corridor. Or if it's an open space it means there are other tiles you can put your units in and if the right units are not in range it's... entirely your fault.

What stupid questions are these? If I can get anywhere on enemy phase and be sure I survive I go there, if I fear I'll die I don't and Lunge has nothing to do with that. I don't see how Lunge being able to pull enemies off forts/woods is a bad thing to you, I really don't. Even the second question is so rhetorical I won't bother answering, I'd just like you to notice how both these questions of yours have nothing to do with Lunge, you could be lecturing a newbie player on how to play FE in general: they're about basic notions on units placing. And Lunge, being a repositioning skill, only gives you more options, which is... a bad thing to you?

Actually I remember all three paths having quite enough terrain tiles to make them as relevant as in other games (and in particular a few annoying woods-heavy maps in Conquest ch.19 and Rev ch.17, maybe a few more I can't remember). Unless you can give me proof that Fates has a distinctive lack of terrain tiles this discussion is pretty sterile.

I fear you might be mixing things up a bit once again: first of all I never said that lunging ninjas is especially clever, it entirely depends on the placement of both enemy units and allies, what I said is that, regardless of Lunge, Camilla and Beruka are IMO good units to face ninjas while you for some reason stated that they souldn't be fighting them. If you can ORKO them with Camilla/Beruka/anyone in order not to eat any debuff, good, do it, if you can't maybe you can Lunge them to bring them in range of another unit who can, maybe it's not necessary, it depends. And if you never find Camilla's weakening abilities useful when she's like 10 levels ahead of your army then I don't know what to say, I do, and I remember a few instances where I was able to bring a weakened enemy in range of a lower leveled unit with Camilla in order to kill them (I never talked about underleveled units, there's no such thing unless you're playing Rev where you might as well grind whichever unfortunate soul you decide to deploy seeing how the developers didn't bother appropriately leveling anyone past chapter 11).

What I think you're failing to understand is that Lunge is not like a unit's speed stat in the GBA games where you'll know for every chapter what enemies the unit will on average be able to double with which weapons and how good they'll fare in general, nor is it a simple skill like a proc or a damage boosting skill which are easier to "rank": Lunge usefulness entirely depends on your units placement skills and so many variables are in play it's difficult to say when and where Lunge is useless (ally units deployed, enemy units, general unit placement and terrain etc...). That is why I'm saying Lunge is good only if you know how to use it.

And I'm not even saying Lunge is the best skill in the game: honestly? I don't know! This is my first playthrough using it and there some chapters where I completely forget to use it! I still recommend looking up some LTC strats for Fates which make heavy use of both Lunge and Shelter (I remember a Conquest LTC playthrough from I think Chiki on Youtube which dealt with the infamous Berserker+General room on Ch.26 with Lunge+Savage Blow!Camilla and, at least in my view, Lunge being good in LTC only shows how such a skill is only as good as you can make it)

I watched the video and  the lunge is used only at start of chapter to move faster. Neither lunge or savage blow is used to deal Berserker+General! I also believe that Lunge is good in LTC because you want move faster, not because new position will help other units or pull the enemy out of terrain bonus tile.

 

I said the basic that you fail to understand! The fact I can't use lunge doesn't mean I positioning wrong my units. It mean that my units are already on the best positions I need them to be and I don't see any reason to bother to plan to lunge ahead when I don't need to do it. Why should I plan to lunge a enemy on fort to give the kill to someone else when there is easier targets to feed my underleveled unit and I can already kill him? There is very few times that lunge is actual useful and that why it's a very situational tool.

 

I don't see neither a reason to talk about a map you can easily complete by having effie/benny with a beastkiller.

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot.

Okay, let's put all this setup under the microscope... Aggressor? Comes at level 35. Strengthtaker? Ditto. Also, it requires you to have attacked and defeated enemies before it takes effect. Cooking? You can only get two foods reliably without having to go to other castles - and if neither of those is an attack food... So much for that. And that's not even getting into the cook being random. Forging is nigh unusable without going to other castles too. Pair up has the downside of using up two units' turns at once, which isn't something I'd make light of. Rally Strength requires someone to have spent time as a Berserker, and you know how much I despise Berserkers. WTA is only worth one point.

You don't have level 35 units at chapter 27? What are you playing? LTC? Revelation also have the worst difficulty scale which is not actual difficulty but just way better stats that yours.

There is a unit that randomily give you food by a skill and there also your castle random events with food that you can farm on arena. If you don't want to do it is up to you.

Do you know you can trade material on the forge?

You don't want pair up? Now you get attack stance which is way better if you want kill a unpaired unit.

Sorry if you don't even want to use a unit as rally bot to make the whole army better. I just have so much tools I can use and so much creativity to deal with any situation.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

You don't have level 35 units at chapter 27? What are you playing? LTC? Revelation also have the worst difficulty scale which is not actual difficulty but just way better stats that yours.

There is a unit that randomily give you food by a skill and there also your castle random events with food that you can farm on arena. If you don't want to do it is up to you.

Do you know you can trade material on the forge?

You don't want pair up? Now you get attack stance which is way better if you want kill a unpaired unit.

Sorry if you don't even want to use a unit as rally bot to make the whole army better. I just have so much tools I can use and so much creativity to deal with any situation.

It's just that level 35 skills are around for so short a time that I think it isn't really worth bringing them up.

None of those are exactly reliable, you know... particularly Keaton's Collector skill, which has a luck% chance of working (note that Keaton doesn't exactly have a good luck base or growth). And the arena cheats, too.

I do, but I have my fair share of issues with the way forging works in Fates.

Fair enough.

The thing about rallybots is that imo, they're a pain to set up what with how much reclassing you'd need to get an appreciable number of rallies on them, which means you have to use specific marriage and A+ setups, and are ultimately wasted unit slots. Also, the one most notable rallybot must be captured, in addition to being on one route.

[SpearOfLies]

7 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

It's just that level 35 skills are around for so short a time that I think it isn't really worth bringing them up.

None of those are exactly reliable, you know... particularly Keaton's Collector skill, which has a luck% chance of working (note that Keaton doesn't exactly have a good luck base or growth). And the arena cheats, too.

I do, but I have my fair share of issues with the way forging works in Fates.

Fair enough.

The thing about rallybots is that imo, they're a pain to set up what with how much reclassing you'd need to get an appreciable number of rallies on them, which means you have to use specific marriage and A+ setups, and are ultimately wasted unit slots. Also, the one most notable rallybot must be captured, in addition to being on one route.

Then don't pick up a nearly end game chapter where the game assume you have lv35 skills. Before is way easier to OHKO fragile unit. Mostly because pre-vahalla there is always a mix of prepromoted(not worth any exp) and promoted unit. I believe the early phase of vahalla there are still fragile enemy(I mostly remember Oni chieftain, Berseker and General so not going to help me so much).

 

As much I care about rally bot, just Speed or Strength is all I need. Strength is a no no for you, but Rally speed is on a sky knight which you can also use for heal or anti mage.

[Shadow Mir]

13 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

Then don't pick up a nearly end game chapter where the game assume you have lv35 skills. Before is way easier to OHKO fragile unit. Mostly because pre-vahalla there is always a mix of prepromoted(not worth any exp) and promoted unit. I believe the early phase of vahalla there are still fragile enemy(I mostly remember Oni chieftain, Berseker and General so not going to help me so much).

 

As much I care about rally bot, just Speed or Strength is all I need. Strength is a no no for you, but Rally speed is on a sky knight which you can also use for heal or anti mage.

That was the only chapter I had a save file for, so using stats for enemies from that chapter was mostly a matter of convenience.

I'll admit, rallies have their uses, but more often than not, I find that the units with rallies have something better to do.

And this is something that I forgot to say when I should've, but the reason why I don't use Charlotte and Arthur is because both of them are pretty terrible.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Zelgius]

So I was interested and thought I would give a Vanguard Corrin a try on Revelation Lunatic. This Corrin is +Def/-Luck and has used no stat boosts, I promoted to Vanguard at level 10 after learning Dragon Fang. I'm at Chapter 13 and this is what Corrin looks like so far:

To no surprise Corrin is performing very well. I doubt I will complete the run any time soon, but I don't think you would have to bother thinking about classes and skill access.

[Koumal8]

On 4/8/2017 at 2:46 PM, Zelgius said:

So I was interested and thought I would give a Vanguard Corrin a try on Revelation Lunatic. This Corrin is +Def/-Luck and has used no stat boosts, I promoted to Vanguard at level 10 after learning Dragon Fang. I'm at Chapter 13 and this is what Corrin looks like so far:

To no surprise Corrin is performing very well. I doubt I will complete the run any time soon, but I don't think you would have to bother thinking about classes and skill access.

While that bulk is obviously impressive, that Corrin should not be doubling anything on Lunatic unpaired with that speed stat safe for some Fighters and Dark Mages (if what I remember of the enemy stats in the previous chapters is correct), which is why I recommend a +Spd boon (feel free to correct me though). My Vanguard for this playthrough is Kaze and it's working surprisingly well (even though he loses his anti-mage capabilities and his physical bulk is only average).

Also, how did you manage to get such high weapon ranks so early in the game? I'm genuinely curious, seriously.