Jugdral gets no love.....

[Køkø]

Why is Jugdral so underrepresented? I get that they're obscure games, considering that neither were released outside of Japan. I still don't know exactly how well it did in Japan, I've heard varying sales figures. Even with that being the case, they shouldn't be so ignored. I don't even think they got a song into SSB,(Something even the second most underrepresented continent, Magvel, got.) despite having one of the best OSTs. Not a sticker or even a mention. POR has a version of Light of Dark, Awakening has many playable characters from the region, Seliph,Julia,Eldigan and Raquesis are in Heroes, and there's some cards and figurines. Interestingly, Sigurd is one the few lords who got a figurine. Quite early too. The point is that you can count the number of Jugdral references on your hands. Does Japan not like these games or something? POR sold lower there, and Ike is one of the most popular lords.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Køkø

[Von Ithipathachai]

I figured it was because of Smash Bros.  Most of the other continents have had their Lords appear to promote their respective games, but Jugdral missed this chance altogether when Sakurai put Roy in Melee instead of Leif, shafting Leif (and the rest of Jugdral) out of a large new fanbase.

The only reason Magvel got even a remotely decent amount of popularity compared to Jugdral was because it rode on the other, more well-known Elibe games' coattails.

(If I made a mistake here, please correct me.)

[Armagon]

11 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I don't even think they got a song into SSB

They technically did. The Coliseum Series Medley contains a remix of the FE6 arena theme, which is a remix of the FE4 battle theme. The Meeting Theme Series Medley contains the recruitment theme heard in FE4, 5, and 6.

Then there's also Ike contain a pallet swap with Sigurd's colors and Marth having one with Leif's colors.

I personally don't like the Jugdral games for various reasons, but yeah, i agree that Jugdral is under-represented and that it needs more representation. I think it's so under-represented is because they are two Japan-only games. The other Japan-only FEs at least have international connections. FE1/, 3/12, and 6 are obvious because of Marth and Roy respectively, and then we have Gaiden getting localized in the form of Shadows of Valentia. Until Jugdral gets it's remakes, it won't really be seeing a whole lot of representation. Even in Heroes, Jugdral only has four characters, and of them, Sigurd and Leif, two of Jugdral's three Lords, are missing.

I think there's also the fact that Thracia 776, a Jugdral game, is considered to be the hardest FE, so even newcomers who start playing the older games in the series generally stay away from Thracia. I know i stopped playing Thracia after a few chapters due to how hard it is. On the flip side, newcomers might also be put off by Genealogy's massive maps. While Jugdral tells good stories, the gameplay for both games is abysmal. Here in Serenes, Jugdral is very popular. But when you look at the FE fanbase as a whole, there are a lot of people who are unwilling to play Jugdral for various gameplay reasons. Regarding newer fans, i'd argue Jugdral is on the lower portion of the popularity spectrum.

I don't know how well Jugdral did in Japan, but i imagine Thracia didn't do so well, given that it released a year before the GameCube.....on the SNES. On the flip side, i've heard sources say FE4 was the best selling FE pre-Awakening but i've also heard it was FE3 that was the best-selling FE, pre-Awakening.

Magvell is also under-represented, but there it's because it's a standalone game.

[Integrity]

it's probably mostly smash bros. hype like ^^ said. smash bros. is approximately infinitely times more popular than the old fire emblems, and still many times more popular than the current fire emblems, which are themselves way less niche than the series used to be.

 

that said, among the actual JP fanbase iirc the judgral games are hella popular, but their not being in other things is probably as much an accident of timing as anything else

Edited August 5, 2017 by Integrity

[Køkø]

4 minutes ago, Armagon said:

They technically did. The Coliseum Series Medley contains a remix of the FE6 arena theme, which is a remix of the FE4 battle theme. The Meeting Theme Series Medley contains the recruitment theme heard in FE4, 5, and 6.

Then there's also Ike contain a pallet swap with Sigurd's colors and Marth having one with Leif's colors.

 

True, I guess you could say that. It's still really distant though. There's no direct mention of either the games or their characters.

 

9 minutes ago, Armagon said:

 

 

"I think there's also the fact that Thracia 776, a Jugdral game, is considered to be the hardest FE, so even newcomers who start playing the older games in the series generally stay away from Thracia. I know i stopped playing Thracia after a few chapters due to how hard it is."

I'd say FE5 is more annoying than difficult. The title of hardest goes to Conquest in my opinion. 

[Jedi]

30 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I think there's also the fact that Thracia 776, a Jugdral game, is considered to be the hardest FE.

This misconception really needs to die, its 2017. Thracia isn't particularly brutal its more its different and, has some out of nowhere moments, but it has nothing on most of the later games on higher difficulties, especially FE6, 12 and such.

[Armagon]

6 minutes ago, Jedi said:

This misconception really needs to die, its 2017. Thracia isn't particularly brutal its more its different and, has some out of nowhere moments, but it has nothing on most of the later games on higher difficulties, especially FE6, 12 and such.

I mean, FE12 Lunatic is the hardest game, but from what i've seen, people generally judge a game's difficulty by it's default difficulty, and then scale it up from there. So by default difficulty, people generally see Thracia as the hardest FE, followed by Conquest and Radiant Dawn.

Though, to be fair, Thracia's difficulty is artificial. Healing misses, no 100% hit-rates, Fatigue, etc.

[Slumber]

Jugdral's under-representation is something I've just learned to deal with. FE4 sold REALLY well, and it's still highly regarded as a game in Japan(Wasn't there some gaming magazine lately that rated FE4 as the highest in the franchise as a "simulator" game?), but Jugdral's also Kaga's last major contribution to the franchise.

It's harder for IS to ignore the Archanea games. Marth's the most recognizable character from the series, and it's the origin of the series. Jugdral doesn't get either of those things, so IS can ignore it all they want, and such a small segment of the fanbase will care that they can just keep doing that. It sucks, yeah, but that's how it is. At this point I've come to accept that Tellius and Elibe will probably even get remakes before Jugdral.

[Køkø]

13 minutes ago, Slumber said:

 "At this point I've come to accept that Tellius and Elibe will probably even get remakes before Jugdral."

I can definitely see an FE6 remake in the near future, but Tellius? Do you really think so?

[Slumber]

22 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Though, to be fair, Thracia's difficulty is artificial. Healing misses, no 100% hit-rates, Fatigue, etc.

 

Some of FE5's difficulty is artificial, but it's mostly stuff like insane throne bonuses(Or 24x and its warp tiles). None of the things you mentioned make the game "artificially difficult", since aside from Fatigue(Which is REALLY not a huge deal. If for some reason you run out of Stamina Drinks, nearly every unit in the game is incredibly viable, and there are enough of each unit type, there are more than enough promotion items, and FE5 is one of the most EXP abundant games in the franchise, that leveling up back-ups is far from a huge problem), these things ALSO affect enemies. There are somethings that affect enemies that are less devastating(Statuses that never run out), but these are pretty rare instances, and the more dire staff effects like Berserk really aren't any worse than they are in, say, the Elibe games just because they last the entire map.

Plus, FE5, going along with the endless amount of viable units and boatloads of EXP, is also one of the FEs that absolutely stacks the deck heavily in your favor. Enemies are incredibly weak, and even most bosses with throne bonuses don't pose any sort of threat. Saying that healing misses, no 100% hit rates, and Fatigue make the game hard sound like somebody reading a list of things people have said about Thracia without actually having played the game. Because those really aren't what makes the game hard. Those are things that are annoying a small fraction of the time.

Notice how nearly everyone who has played FE5 says that the game is mostly hard blind, your first time through? And how none of the things you listed would change at all during consecutive playthroughs?

That's because what makes Thracia hard is the scenarios it puts you in, and the player not knowing what's super important from a gameplay perspective. If you've played Conquest, you can get an idea of what makes Thracia hard. Thracia puts you in really difficult scenarios that become easier to deal with when you figure out what to do or come up with a strategy that works. A second time through, you'll know how valuable Warp staves can be at certain moments. Which is why people say Thracia's not nearly as hard when you don't play it blind.

4 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I can definitely see an FE6 remake in the near future, but Tellius? Do you really think so?

Ike's about 100x more popular than anything in Jugdral, so yeah.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Slumber

[Jingle Jangle]

The reason I think the Jugdral games are underrepresented is the visuals. More specifically the colors of the maps, just a glance at Google (I didn't play the game yet mind you) the games look very murky with dark greens and blues , which is a steep constant compared to  the later games in the series, especially the GBA games that followed, for the average gamer I'm petty sure that they could choose the brighter visuals.

The second reason is the art style. I know that art is subjective, but the artwork for the game feels like a 90's anime. Which may not be everyone's cup of tea having most of the guy rocking mullets. 

Third, the games are dark. I know that the Fire Emblem series is one of  Nintendo's darker franchises next to Mother. But Jugdral goes into some adult places. With child hunts, more incest than the rest of the series, bleak setting,  and heroes who don't always win. It plays a hard sell to Nintendo, of how to market , compared to the other games in the series. That are my two cents on the matter.

[Køkø]

20 minutes ago, Slumber said:

 

 

"Ike's about 100x more popular than anything in Jugdral, so yeah."

What would they do with it though? There's nothing to improve other than a slight graphics update. Hardly grounds for remake.

[Slumber]

Just now, Køkø said:

What would they do with it though? There's nothing to improve other than a slight graphics update. Hardly grounds for remake.

Path of Radiance needs a lot of re-balancing, and Radiant Dawn could nearly do with a complete structure overhaul.

It's less than the Jugdral games need, but again, Ike's more popular.

[Køkø]

1 hour ago, Jingle Jangle said:

The reason I think the Jugdral games are underrepresented is the visuals. More specifically the colors of the maps, just a glance at Google (I didn't play the game yet mind you) the games look very murky with dark greens and blues , which is a steep constant compared to  the later games in the series, especially the GBA games that followed, for the average gamer I'm petty sure that they could choose the brighter visuals.

The second reason is the art style. I know that art is subjective, but the artwork for the game feels like a 90's anime. Which may not be everyone's cup of tea having most of the guy rocking mullets. 

Third, the games are dark. I know that the Fire Emblem series is one of  Nintendo's darker franchises next to Mother. But Jugdral goes into some adult places. With child hunts, more incest than the rest of the series, bleak setting,  and heroes who don't always win. It plays a hard sell to Nintendo, of how to market , compared to the other games in the series. That are my two cents on the matter.

Yeah, the characters portraits are an acquired taste, but the dull colors fit the game's theme. I think they're attractive.  

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the dark and edgy emo type. It's just that I'd like to see future FE games take a page out of Jugdral's book. FE4 has the best story to date.

 

37 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Path of Radiance needs a lot of re-balancing, and Radiant Dawn could nearly do with a complete structure overhaul.

It's less than the Jugdral games need, but again, Ike's more popular.

Hmm, I hope not. But I guess we'll see. 

 

I think FE9 is relatively flawless. Other than being too easy.

 

MODEDIT: yo don't doublepost

[NinjaMonkey]

2 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

but Jugdral missed this chance altogether when Sakurai put Roy in Melee instead of Leif, shafting Leif (and the rest of Jugdral) out of a large new fanbase.

Seeing as Melee released before FE6, why would Sakurai choose the main character from an old FE game to be in his latest Smash Bros., as opposed to the main character from one that's about to release?

[Malik]

Maybe if there they make a remake of thracia 776 or some continuation it will be better (correct me if am wrong) 

[Von Ithipathachai]

Just now, NinjaMonkey said:

Seeing as Melee released before FE6, why would Sakurai choose the main character from an old FE game to be in his latest Smash Bros., as opposed to the main character from one that's about to release?

Sakurai was going to include Leif before he was aware of Binding Blade being developed.  Thracia 776 was the most recent Fire Emblem game released at that time.  When Sakurai found out about Binding Blade, he decided to include Roy as a means of promoting the then-unreleased new game, which paid off quite handsomely.

[The Baroness of Blainswal]

I am a firm believer that Jugdral's day in the sun will come. All it needs is a remake, and I mean if Gaiden got remade, what reason would they possibly have for neglecting Genealogy of the Holy War (which if I'm not mistaken has more of a following)?

[Køkø]

7 minutes ago, The Baroness of Blainswal said:

I am a firm believer that Jugdral's day in the sun will come. All it needs is a remake, and I mean if Gaiden got remade, what reason would they possibly have for neglecting Genealogy of the Holy War (which if I'm not mistaken has more of a following)?

I'm not sure how NOA is gonna get around the TON of incest. A lot of religious themes too, even in the title. 

[Slumber]

12 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I'm not sure how NOA is gonna get around the TON of incest. A lot of religious themes too, even in the title. 

Fates was practically built off of incest that we didn't really find out WASN'T incest(For Hoshido, mostly) until late in the game.

And even then, Corrin boinking Azura(His/her actual, biological cousin) is hardly shied away from. And then given all of the weird outcomes you could have with kids in Awakening, I think it's safe to say cousin on cousin incest is cool with NoA, even by today's standards.

The one case of incest that isn't cousin on cousin in Genealogy is portrayed in an incredibly villainous light.

If anything, I'd say the rape/sex slavery(Deirdre, Lara and Leen) is the harder part to skirt around. I mean, they could simply write out the implications with Leen and Lara without changing much of anything, but Deirdre is brainwashed and turned into a breeding object as a plot point. Which is far from the darkest thing ever put in a video game, but definitely darker than would likely fly with NoA.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Slumber

[The Baroness of Blainswal]

1 minute ago, Køkø said:

I'm not sure how NOA is gonna get around the TON of incest. A lot of religious themes too, even in the title. 

I don't think NoA particularly cares about religious themes anymore what with priest and Bishop being classes in some western released games.

[Slumber]

Also, the Battle of Belhalla would be tricky. Because that's probably the biggest, most dramatic scene in the entire franchise, and it's all about half of Sigurd's army getting immolated and killed. A scene like that can't really be glossed over, and if anything, would likely have to be done in proper CG... which would be weird, since, again, it's supposed to be a very brutal, graphic scene, based on official art of the scene.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Slumber

[Zapp Branniglenn]

54 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Sakurai was going to include Leif before he was aware of Binding Blade being developed.  Thracia 776 was the most recent Fire Emblem game released at that time.  When Sakurai found out about Binding Blade, he decided to include Roy as a means of promoting the then-unreleased new game, which paid off quite handsomely.

As far as we know, Leif and Sigurd were never considered for Smash 64 or Melee. There was a rumor floating around that Sigurd was considered for 64, but nothing backs it up. From the start of Melee's development, Marth was the only lock as far as Fire Emblem representatives, with a Marth Clone that would be the FE6 protagonist. FE6 was slated for release before Melee, but went through development hell, so Sakurai's team made a character based on the most updated version of the protagonist. Some files in Melee that belong to Roy are actually titled "Ike", one of Roy's prototype names. Also:

Quote

Fire Emblem trophies: “Of course Fire Emblem trophies were part of the initial plan. But the models would have been complicated, which would have taken a lot of development time, so they were low priority, and in the end the idea was scrapped.”

It's possible the judgral protagonists were planned as trophies, but there's no confirmation of who they planned to build. There was also going to be a stage titled "Kingdom of Akaneia" that was also scrapped, but still referenced in game files as "Akaneia". That's important since Melee stages tended to get two songs, so another Fire emblem song might have been planned.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Gustavos

[Køkø]

19 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Also, the Battle of Belhalla would be tricky. Because that's probably the biggest, most dramatic scene in the entire franchise, and it's all about half of Sigurd's army getting immolated and killed. A scene like that can't really be glossed over, and if anything, would likely have to be done in proper CG... which would be weird, since, again, it's supposed to be a very brutal, graphic scene, based on official art of the scene.

Eh, that probably wouldn't be an issue. Being incinerated isn't exactly the most pleasant way to go but there's worse. It's not like they have to show any gore. Besides, sexuality seems to be more offensive than violence for some reason.

[bethany81707]

2 hours ago, Køkø said:

Eh, that probably wouldn't be an issue. Being incinerated isn't exactly the most pleasant way to go but there's worse. It's not like they have to show any gore. Besides, sexuality seems to be more offensive than violence for some reason.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/1/1f/Battle_of_Barhara.png/revision/latest?cb=20090708023811

And then there's the pleasant little bit at the end where Arvis personally Valflames Sigurd...

And then you've got to somehow justify how all the girls but Ayra get away, and how Levin's corpse is OK for being possessed...