Popularity of Echoes characters

[bethany81707]

A lot of people like to point at the CYL poll to explain popularity and justify things of that nature. However, when it comes to Echoes, that doesn't really fly- none of the characters were voted according to their new personality or even design. So I'd like to see which characters people might guess are the most popular based on opinions they have noticed, and any significant shifts from the original results.

The original position is listed below. The Whitewings and Zeke are included, but their results are harder to consider.

Spoiler

Celica
Alm
Delthea
Mathilda
Valbar
Zeke
Kliff
Catria
Silque
Sonya
Saber
Kamui
Lukas
Boey
Genny
Mae
Clair
Gray
Luthier
Est
Palla/Nomah/Tobin
Rudolf
Python
Mycen
Clive
Atlas
Deen
Tatiana/Desaix
Forsyth
Leon
Grieth/Jesse

Characters on the same line received equal votes. Further details (position and number of votes) are complied on this spreadsheet, on the 'Gaiden' tab.

Personally, the things that jump out at me are Boey outranking Mae and Silque outranking Genny. Leon being at the bottom also seems like it would change.

(Also, feel free to suggest the position of Echoes newcomers like Faye and Berkut).

[Interdimensional Observer]

I'd say Luthier down, Palla and Est up. Silque could stand to lose a little, and Saber and Tobin just might be able to gain. Leon would definitely move up, as you said as well. Python and Nomah lower perhaps? Zeke might be able to drop as well, since other characters now actually having personalities might mean his whole "miraculously survived amnesiac Camus" thing is no longer so outstanding or appealing in the scheme of things.

Fayebae and Beirut- both are mixed characters in reception. Faye is loved or hated personality-wise, and Berkut is seen by some as totally incompetent, but I think he has a few supporters. Him getting a GHB might be a sign of popularity, but it could just be that Gaiden/SoV has no remotely appealing villains otherwise (which between Nuibaba, Desaix, Rudolf, Jedah, Slayde, Fernand and a bunch of bandits, might be the truth).

Edited August 10, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[Armagon]

I think Alm would probably outrank Celica and be in the Top 10 or 5. Mae would also probably end up in the Top 10 or maybe even Top 5. Gray and Tobin are definitely Top 5. Delthea would be in the middle-high range. She's the best mage in the game, but people either love or hate her personality.

 

As for the newcomers, Faye would probably be in the middle. Sure, people either love or hate her when it comes to personality, but Cleric!Faye is generally agreed to be one of the best units in the game from what i've seen. A character's popularity can also be determined by their usefulness on the battlefield. Berkut, again, in the middle. He's considered to be one of the best 3DS FE villains, but it's not like it was hard to beat the Awakening or Fates villains. Fernand would probably be low, if only because he's a bitch. Conrad, probably in the middle-high range.

[property of nuvelle]

With what we know of the characters now, I think I can assume that the ranking would be A LOT different at this point.

The obvious changes I'd see are:

Leon would not be sitting at the bottom anymore.

Valbar would fall pretty far down.

Clair, Mae, and Genny gaining higher spots.

While maybe not by much, Jesse would no longer be bottom.

If anyone, I'd say Luthier might be lowest out of the playable cast.

Faye, Conrad, Berkut, and Rinea would place upper half.

Edited August 10, 2017 by KongDude

[maybe]

order would probably be completely different

aside from like, maybe alm celica and mycen, these aren't even really the same characters, they're just dudes with the same name as the echoes characters, who were pretty much new ones

aside from alm and celica being around the top the only thing that would probably stay the same is deen being near the bottom, for pretty much the same reason as in gaiden (most people don't pick him over sonya) 

[Zangetsu]

5 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

A lot of people like to point at the CYL poll to explain popularity and justify things of that nature. However, when it comes to Echoes, that doesn't really fly- none of the characters were voted according to their new personality or even design. So I'd like to see which characters people might guess are the most popular based on opinions they have noticed, and any significant shifts from the original results.

This is hardly surprising considering the game has been modernize & finally & officially got ported over to the west. Why else would there be so many people clamoring for the Jugdral series to get remake.

 

 

5 hours ago, Armagon said:

As for the newcomers, Faye would probably be in the middle. Sure, people either love or hate her when it comes to personality, but Cleric!Faye is generally agreed to be one of the best units in the game from what i've seen. A character's popularity can also be determined by their usefulness on the battlefield. Berkut, again, in the middle. He's considered to be one of the best 3DS FE villains, but it's not like it was hard to beat the Awakening or Fates villains. Fernand would probably be low, if only because he's a bitch. Conrad, probably in the middle-high range.

 

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Fayebae and Berkut- both are mixed characters in reception. Faye is loved or hated personality-wise, and Berkut is seen by some as totally incompetent, but I think he has a few supporters. Him getting a GHB might be a sign of popularity, but it could just be that Gaiden/SoV has no remotely appealing villains otherwise (which between Nuibaba, Desaix, Rudolf, Jedah, Slayde, Fernand and a bunch of bandits, might be the truth).

Am I missing something here? Berkut has been constantly praised hell & back. People are going as far to say he's one of best villain in the franchise.

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Zangetsu said:

Am I missing something here? Berkut has been constantly praised hell & back. People are going as far to say he's one of best villain in the franchise.

I mean, i personally consider him to be one of the best villains in the franchise, but people have called him out and how all he basically does is just complain at how Alm beats him at everything (which, they aren't wrong, it's just how people interpret it. Those who like Berkut argue that this is Berkut going into despair after being beaten by a farmboy several times and said farmboy eventually takes the throne from him. Those who don't like Berkut argue that it's just Berkut being a whiny teen). People also don't seem to like the scene where

Spoiler

Rinea forgives him, even though he was the cause of her death.

 

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

I do like Berkut and he is one of my favorite villains/antagonists, however I wouldn't put him above the likes of Lyon, Valter, Caellach and the Black Knight, so I suppose in that respect he's ranked 5th for me of the localized game characters. I still like Gangrel and Walhart, but when you're able to recruit them despite how they should be dead it's quite a betrayal of their characters, but frankly I consider it to be non canon and more so a what if scenario (same with Emmeryn, but I think people still need to understand her sacrifice is still there seeing as yes Chrom and Lissa have their sister back, but not THEIR sister) seeing as how you're only able to get them after you beat the story like with the Tower of Valni/Creature Campaign.

Edited August 10, 2017 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[bethany81707]

From my understanding, Berkut is very much a villain whose character is portrayed in a subtle manner. His motivations aren't spelled out, but for those who recognise them, they're an amazing portrayal of just what it'd be like to lose everything you ever worked for because someone else was born to a better father.

In essence, it's a smaller-scale version of the Dawn Brigade.

[Thane]

3 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

His motivations aren't spelled out

Except for when he goes on monologues about his motivations, you mean?

 

[Zangetsu]

11 hours ago, Armagon said:

I mean, i personally consider him to be one of the best villains in the franchise, but people have called him out and how all he basically does is just complain at how Alm beats him at everything (which, they aren't wrong, it's just how people interpret it. Those who like Berkut argue that this is Berkut going into despair after being beaten by a farmboy several times and said farmboy eventually takes the throne from him. Those who don't like Berkut argue that it's just Berkut being a whiny teen). People also don't seem to like the scene where

  Hide contents

Rinea forgives him, even though he was the cause of her death.

 

I suppose that spoiler is kinda ridiculous & his insanity is kind of forced. I definitely can see why people see him as whiny brat but he's suppose come across that. Unlike Fernand, I actually like how he doesn't have this tragic background story. I really don't think every villain needs one to be compelling. In Fernand's case it just came across force & made me dislike him more because of that despite the DLC fleshing him out a lot more.

My main reason why I personally like Berkut is how similar he is to Vegeta. I know I'm going to get flak for that one but when you actually think about it, these two have more in common than you would think

 

8 hours ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

I do like Berkut and he is one of my favorite villains/antagonists, however I wouldn't put him above the likes of Lyon, Valter, Caellach and the Black Knight, so I suppose in that respect he's ranked 5th for me of the localized game characters. I still like Gangrel and Walhart, but when you're able to recruit them despite how they should be dead it's quite a betrayal of their characters, but frankly I consider it to be non canon and more so a what if scenario (same with Emmeryn, but I think people still need to understand her sacrifice is still there seeing as yes Chrom and Lissa have their sister back, but not THEIR sister) seeing as how you're only able to get them after you beat the story like with the Tower of Valni/Creature Campaign.

I actually think Gangrel & Walhart became better character because of M.U support with them. It reveal a lot of their depths & belief within them. Which is exactly I believe they're much superior than Validar & Grima.

 

5 hours ago, Thane said:

Except for when he goes on monologues about his motivations, you mean?

 

Yeah, but I'm a pretty stupid guy so I kinda need them to do that for me.

[Armagon]

9 hours ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

I do like Berkut and he is one of my favorite villains/antagonists, however I wouldn't put him above the likes of Lyon, Valter, Caellach and the Black Knight

Mmm, i don't know if i'd put Berkut below Valter. Valter just felt like he was evil for the sake of being evil. He didn't really have any motivations besides being one of the bad guys. Caellach at least had an actual goal, starting as a mercenary who wanted to become a king. Meanwhile, it was stated that Valter was a terrible person even before he acquired the cursed lance. Back when Vigarde was alive, Valter got expelled from the Grado army because he murdered innocents.

Huh. Now that i think about it, Sacred Stones didn't really have any good villains besides Lyon, Caellach, and Selena. Because Riev was just Magvellian Gharnef (even his appearance looks like Gharnef), Valter, i already talked about, Vigarde is just better version of Garon, Formortiis has no backstory (even Grima in Awakening had more backstory), and Orson has barely any screentime (but still more backstory than Formortiis).

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I know that was kinda off-topic, so in an attempt to stay on-topic, i'm gonna guess a few more guesses to what the popularity poll for Echoes' characters would look like compared to Gaiden: Saber will get a massive boost in popularity, making a jump to the high spots of the list. Mathilda would probably remain in that general area. Clair would jump a bit higher on the list.

 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Valter is evil for the sake of being evil, for sure (the cursed lance backstory doesn't really add much), but some people are that way, and he's pretty darn good at it. He's a menace and his creepy obsession with dominating and killing Eirika sticks out in my mind for sure. He's absolutely one of the best SS villains and one of the better villains in the series IMO.

Berkut on the other hand I don't like much. I want to like him but the stuff with Rinea in the final dungeon is just cringe-worthy and he's only the way he is because Rudolf is grossly incompetent.

Anyway, as far as on-topic guesses go:

Up:
Mae, Boey (had fun personalities which many people seem to like)
Gray, Tobin (same)
Leon (attracts attention as a rare queer character in FE and is rather well-done for a bit character)
Clair (fun, memorable)

Down:
Kliff (doesn't stand out as much as some of the other villagers)
Kamui (has rather little personality and it isn't a particularly endearing one)
Luthier (I kinda like Luthier, but it's not in a way that will be generally popular I would think)

[bethany81707]

7 hours ago, Thane said:

Except for when he goes on monologues about his motivations, you mean?

 

Apparently, people still aren't clear on them, so...

[Emperor Hardin]

2 hours ago, Armagon said:

Huh. Now that i think about it, Sacred Stones didn't really have any good villains besides Lyon, Caellach, and Selena. Because Riev was just Magvellian Gharnef (even his appearance looks like Gharnef), Valter, i already talked about, Vigarde is just better version of Garon, Formortiis has no backstory (even Grima in Awakening had more backstory), and Orson has barely any screentime (but still more backstory than Formortiis).

Riev has a small backstory, he wants revenge for being exiled from Rausten.

Fomortiis has more backstory then Grima. The First Exalt doesn't even get a name.

Orson got a fair amount of screen time and personality.

[Armagon]

13 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Riev has a small backstory, he wants revenge for being exiled from Rausten.

That's basically Gharnef, just with a minor change.

15 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Fomortiis has more backstory then Grima. The First Exalt doesn't even get a name.

I disagree. We got a decent chunk of info regarding Grima when he was first introduced. Even before that, we got the Grimleal. Formortiis? We didn't even know his name until the final battle, and even then, no one acknowledges it. 

53 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Orson got a fair amount of screen time and personality.

I suppose he did get that from when he was playable, so yeah.

[Thane]

6 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Apparently, people still aren't clear on them, so...

Berkut is a joke, and far from subtly written. He accomplishes nothing, yet is supposed to be a rival. He's supposed to be sympathetic, but never has a humanizing moment. We're supposed to feel bad for him when he gets what he thought was his birthright stripped away from him, but the game never dwells on Rudolf's actions or the fact that Berkut goes off the deep end. 

Since he has zero impact on the overall plot, I've seen people defend him by saying that his inclusion is important for the themes. However, since the game is so afraid of exploring its own themes, and even contradict them and its own worldbuilding on occasion (usually because of Alm), I must say that I simply don't see it.

I'm not sure what you mean when people say they aren't clear on Berkut's motivations. My bet is that they just don't care because he's a waste of potential that turns out to be little more than a walking joke.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

16 hours ago, Armagon said:

Mmm, i don't know if i'd put Berkut below Valter. Valter just felt like he was evil for the sake of being evil. He didn't really have any motivations besides being one of the bad guys. Caellach at least had an actual goal, starting as a mercenary who wanted to become a king. Meanwhile, it was stated that Valter was a terrible person even before he acquired the cursed lance. Back when Vigarde was alive, Valter got expelled from the Grado army because he murdered innocents.

Huh. Now that i think about it, Sacred Stones didn't really have any good villains besides Lyon, Caellach, and Selena. Because Riev was just Magvellian Gharnef (even his appearance looks like Gharnef), Valter, i already talked about, Vigarde is just better version of Garon, Formortiis has no backstory (even Grima in Awakening had more backstory), and Orson has barely any screentime (but still more backstory than Formortiis).

I'm going to have to respectfully challenge that about Valter because while true there is more to it than that. However first of all to get it out of the way Sacred Stones overall antagonists cast has a lot more character that stands out because I think it says something when even a minor antagonist like Carlyle can leave a impression and as mentioned Orson too with how he's written in displaying how despair can shape men who have lost what they loved and essentially even fought for. Sacred Stones easily has more good villains/antagonists than any other FE game in my eyes of the localized games. A large reason I like the Grado generals is that they to act as foils off each other and here are the pairs that are foils:

Glen/Valter

Selena/Caellach - Both are the least extreme of their own general triad (Selena had doubts about Grado but remained loyal, unlike Duessel and Glen; Caellach is a bastard, but Valter and Riev are both monsters). Selena is extremely loyal to Vigarde, while Caellach is The Starscream and mocks him whenever he can get away with it.

Duessel/Riev - Both are loyal to their lords (Vigarde and Lyon) as long as they agree with their Lord's ideals (Lyon simply hides his true nature in Ephraim's route, while Vigarde doesn't), both abandon their homeland (Grado and Rausten) to fight for the opposite side against each other.  

 

Now then in regards to Valter. The reason why he's one of my favorite villains in the series is because sure he's evil, but there is depth to his madness in how he's a example of men in war and just how it can shape them to be at their worse.

 

In quoting Riev "Ah, Valter... You're a beast. You're bound to no country. You care nothing for friend or foe. Kill a man, claim a woman... You live for nothing more, you wretched beast. That's your strength. That's what makes you stronger than any man alive. A beast acts without remorse. Man's morality cannot win. It's nature's way..."

 

Riev is saying that Valter had to become or rather adapt to what he has become in order to survive. Valter from the beginning was no gentle lamb as Duessel puts it, but at the very least still human in having some kind of morality. From the very moment Valter picked up Duessel's family Cursed Lance was the moment the darkness within him was brought to light letting go of what held him back and to let loose into the madness that he succumbed to his bloodlust. The thing about it is that Valter probably had no choice in the matter as they were in a battle and seeing as how his lance broke he needed a nearby one as soon as possible to fight with so he may live. 

Valter is so steeped in madness that he over the course of the game tries to make it so the war continues as long as it can with no end not wanting any peace to happen to ruin his thrill for mayhem and this is what makes him a unsettling villain. He allows for Eirika to escape at the first encounter and he does in fact allow Ephraim to escape during his castle raid, he isn't bluffing when he mentions it when they both fight and it would certainly all the more explain how Ephraim managed to escape unscathed when he should have been captured. He tricks Selena to return to Grado and kills Glen because it would to be far too quick and easy to have the game end “Heh heh… Stupid woman. If Grado wins too easily, there’ll be no more bloodshed. We must do what we can to extend the fun… I believe it’s time for me to return to my darling Eirika. It wouldn't do for Glen to arrive before me, would it?” and finally just his downright obsession with Eirika was disturbing not as disturbing with Orson with his deceased wife, but unsettling nonetheless.

 

Overall this is why Valter the Dark Moonstone is one of my favorite FE villains in the series in making him stand out.

Edited August 11, 2017 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Dark Holy Elf]

I think that's a great post, AbsoluteZer0Nova. I hadn't even considered how the general trio are foils with each other that way but it does make a lot of sense.

 

On 2017-08-10 at 6:34 PM, Armagon said:

I disagree. We got a decent chunk of info regarding Grima when he was first introduced. Even before that, we got the Grimleal. Formortiis? We didn't even know his name until the final battle, and even then, no one acknowledges it. 

I'm not sure why you think knowing the name Fomortiis is relevant. He's the Demon King; that is the name everyone has for him, and that's enough. I definitely thinking you're underselling the information we get on the Demon King in SS; you get quite a bit of lore about how he was defeated and sealed, and of course the Demon King himself appears on screen throughout the last third of the game and we learn a good deal of his personality from how he manipulates Lyon and how he interacts with the PCs. He's not the most intriguing villain of all time ("the demon king" is kinda inherently limiting) but he's reasonably developed (more than I expected honestly), certainly getting more than Medeus or Grima from my memory.

[Emperor Hardin]

On 8/10/2017 at 6:34 PM, Armagon said:

That's basically Gharnef, just with a minor change.

I disagree. We got a decent chunk of info regarding Grima when he was first introduced. Even before that, we got the Grimleal. Formortiis? We didn't even know his name until the final battle, and even then, no one acknowledges it. 

I suppose he did get that from when he was playable, so yeah.

And Validar is Gharnef but with less backstory then even the NES version of Gharnef.

We get Grima was an evil dragon who defeated by Legally Distinct from Marth and Naga. We get Fomortiis was an evil demon who was defeated by Grado and the founders of each nation, as well as Moria. Fomortiis still wins out. Also Fomortiis is a better name then the woefully generic, Grima, or the downright laughable Gimli.

[Medeus]

I honestly wouldn't put Grima above Formortiis if we're ignoring Echoes. Both don't have the most amount of depth to them, but Formortiis' interactions with the twins and his manipulations of Lyon does more for the involved characters and helps make Lyon's story all the more memorable. He manages to make his role work within the realms of his limited characterization and moves along Lyon's arc in a way that makes it stand out among the rest of Fire Emblem's stories. With Grima, he doesn't contribute as much to the main characters of Awakening and due to the way the plot is structured in that game he doesn't get a lot of chances to shine. He's also considered to have one of the weaker arcs in the franchise and his characterization is one of the key factors for that. As a result, even though both have limited amounts of depth Formortiis was probably the better handled villain between the two since his role made the characters (well, mostly Lyon) around him stronger, Grima doesn't quite succeed in that regard and thus falls shorter by comparison.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Medeus

[Armagon]

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I definitely thinking you're underselling the information we get on the Demon King in SS; you get quite a bit of lore about how he was defeated and sealed, and of course the Demon King himself appears on screen throughout the last third of the game and we learn a good deal of his personality from how he manipulates Lyon and how he interacts with the PCs. He's not the most intriguing villain of all time ("the demon king" is kinda inherently limiting) but he's reasonably developed (more than I expected honestly), certainly getting more than Medeus or Grima from my memory.

I'll give Formortiis credit, as he did appear more often in the story (assuming you're playing Eirika's route, as Lyon is actually possessed by Formortiis in that route), but, i don't know, it just felt like i learned more about Grima in Awakening than i did about Formortiis in Sacred Stones.

9 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

And Validar is Gharnef but with less backstory then even the NES version of Gharnef.

Literally never even mentioned Validar but ok.

9 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

We get Grima was an evil dragon who defeated by Legally Distinct from Marth and Naga. We get Fomortiis was an evil demon who was defeated by Grado and the founders of each nation, as well as Moria. Fomortiis still wins out

Both boils down to "legendary hero defeats great evil". So actually, no one wins in this.

9 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Also Fomortiis is a better name then the woefully generic, Grima, or the downright laughable Gimli.

And how is this relevant? No, please, explain why Formortiis having a better name than Grima is relevant. Because this honestly just seems like a Awakening-hate post. Do you even know where the name "Gimli" originates from? It originates from Norse mythology. So you effectively just called Norse mythology "downright laughable".

Spoiler

If anything tho, Gimil just doesn't make sense, because it's where the survivors of Ragnarok go to live. Doesn't really fit with Grima's theme of complete annihilation of the world.

8 hours ago, Medeus said:

 As a result, even though both have limited amounts of depth Formortiis was probably the better handled villain between the two since his role made the characters (well, mostly Lyon) around him stronger, Grima doesn't quite succeed in that regard and thus falls shorter by comparison.

Fair enough.

[Emperor Hardin]

On 8/12/2017 at 9:31 AM, Armagon said:

And how is this relevant? No, please, explain why Formortiis having a better name than Grima is relevant. Because this honestly just seems like a Awakening-hate post. Do you even know where the name "Gimli" originates from? It originates from Norse mythology. So you effectively just called Norse mythology "downright laughable".

Gimli is the name for a paradise in norse mythology, not at all something that fits Gimli the Evil Dragon.