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What mechanics from SoV should be included in FE switch?


Why mechanics from SoV should be included in FE switch?  

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  1. 1. Why mechanics from SoV should be included in FE switch?

    • Shrines
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    • Arts
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    • Villages
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    • Spells costing HP
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    • Summoners
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    • Witches
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    • Doubling with 1 more speed
      11
    • Promotion
      41
    • Terrian
      21
    • Shields/rings
      51
    • 2 Routes
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    • Forging
      51
    • Skirmishes
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The thing is, a lot of Echoes' stuff was interesting, but also horribly outdated and broken in many ways.

The fact that you couldn't control what spells your mages used on the counter-attack does serious damage to their enemy-phase effectiveness even if they have good defense.

The art system and hp cost for spells and skills was heavily undermined by the game's huge supply of regeneration rings and long-range healers, and nearly every single art except for Double Lion was useless for anyone against an enemy that didn't utterly dwarf them in speed and/or defense.

The village and world map system, while expending the world and characters, really slowed down gameplay and made repeated playthroughs annoying, especially in the beginning.

And worst of all, the class system was so atrociously broken it's almost offensive and I'm even tempted to take back my statement that FE4 was the worst balanced game in the entire franchise; this and gaiden give it serious competition. I mean seriously, a class system that actively punishes not promoting early and makes it an objectively superior option? And worse still, allowing one, and only one class the option to go back to villager and basically become an unstoppable super-juggernaut in any class they want as they gain levels at warp speed against late-game enemies with their same same end-game stats? And make that class for males only? What in the hell were the designers thinking? Atlas, Atlas, became one of my best units by the end because the mercenary class line got rid of most of his weaknesses and his strength, his only good stat, wound up getting into the lower 40s by the end of the game after I reclassed him into a hyper-fast cavalier and gave him the javelin. And mind, this is all without going out of my way to grind with him.

All of Gaiden's myriad elements together were an interesting change of pace, but almost none of its elements would do anything to benefit the modern FE formula. The only thing I really liked and think should be incorporated in the main games was the additional dialogue with characters, which could easily be incorporated into bases for "My castles" in the future, and the ability to gain support points with units within 2 spaces, which I think would be a huge boon if they ever got rid of pair-up and went back to the old support system with aura bonuses (which I would very much like).

Edited by Alastor15243
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Hated the dungeons hated how few classes there were. 

Didn’t like two routes either it sort of made it hard to replay since one route had my favorite characters the other was kind of just okay  

 

well honestly supports were missed  not needing S ranks for everyone but C-A for everyone should have been in  

 

 

 

villages were cool I liked evil summoners too  (and our team’s white mages could summon for easier battles but losing exp) 

 

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As others have said, Mila's turnwheel should return. It was a great and practical addition that helped countless times and sped up the pace of the game considerably. The only real difference I would make is to reduce the amount of uses it had, as SoV got away with it due to having dungeons, but even then it was a little excessive. My idea would be to start with three uses, upgrade to 5 at the midway point, and have 7-9 uses by the endgame, with sidequests to add more uses inbetween.

Villages are a great tool for worldbuilding, and they add an additional way for the player to interact and learn more about their troops. I wouldn't mind if shopping and forging could be done here, either.

I would like a combination of arts and skills. The former were situational, and the latter are luck based, but combining them would remove their greatest flaws and allow the strengths of both to shine.

I wouldn't mind summoners returning. Just make their summoning ability more reliable yet predictable and make the ability come with a greater cost so that they don't just spam their ability.

I wouldn't mind if many of your units had their own spell lists, while still having tomes present in the game. The former allows the player to save on the use of their tomes by using a replenishable resource (hp), while the latter could allow for some mages to cover for their weaknesses. I have some ideas on how to balance  the two so one doesn't upend the other, but I have no idea how they will work in practice.

I liked the high-avoidance of the terrain, but I also like Battle for Wesnoth, which is more about positioning than Fire Emblem is, and is also much more luck-based. Unless the new game is built around it, I'm fine having this be a one-time gimmick.

I would like an item button for character inventories so that shields and rings could return. They were interesting, helpful, and tended to come with their pros and cons to balance them out.

I didn't mind the dungeons in SoV, since they made grinding interesting and added much to the lore of the world, but I won't complain if they don't reappear.

Also, can we keep the 1 round RNG? I like knowing that a 90% to hit is really a 90% chance to hit, and that 50% is really a coin flip, so I can plan around said hit rates instead of having to go to this site to get what the actual hit rates of the 2 RNG are. I enjoy having to plan around unexpected hits and misses, I find it adds to the strategy.

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On 11/9/2017 at 7:51 AM, Alastor15243 said:

The art system and hp cost for spells and skills was heavily undermined by the game's huge supply of regeneration rings and long-range healers, and nearly every single art except for Double Lion was useless for anyone against an enemy that didn't utterly dwarf them in speed and/or defense

Regarding the Skills, it was the first time it was done with an HP Cost so it's to be expected that it wouldn't be perfect. However, i would much prefer having an HP Cost for Skills rather than having it be RNG-based because i at least have control over it.

On 11/9/2017 at 7:51 AM, Alastor15243 said:

The village and world map system, while expending the world and characters, really slowed down gameplay and made repeated playthroughs annoying, especially in the beginning.

I disagree. The villages actually added a nice change of pace to the game and the world map worked pretty well, aside from the reinforcements. THAT did slow the game a bit but the world map itself didn't. I wouldn't mind seeing Villages return, though i would like to explore them in full 3D.

On 11/9/2017 at 7:51 AM, Alastor15243 said:

And worst of all, the class system was so atrociously broken it's almost offensive and I'm even tempted to take back my statement that FE4 was the worst balanced game in the entire franchise; this and gaiden give it serious competition. I mean seriously, a class system that actively punishes not promoting early and makes it an objectively superior option? And worse still, allowing one, and only one class the option to go back to villager and basically become an unstoppable super-juggernaut in any class they want as they gain levels at warp speed against late-game enemies with their same same end-game stats? And make that class for males only? What in the hell were the designers thinking? Atlas, Atlas, became one of my best units by the end because the mercenary class line got rid of most of his weaknesses and his strength, his only good stat, wound up getting into the lower 40s by the end of the game after I reclassed him into a hyper-fast cavalier and gave him the javelin. And mind, this is all without going out of my way to grind with him.

No FE game will ever be the unbalanced mess that was FE4. Aside from Barons sucking (but Armors suck in general), i never once felt that classes in SoV were broken. Yes, Mercenaries CAN use the Villager Loop, but it's not required at all (unless you wanna beat Thabes but that's post-game). Dread Fighters are the best Class but they weren't broken; most of my non-Dread Fighter units could easily keep up.

I also don't mind the game encouraging earlier promotions especially since i do promote early regardless of the game because i don't have the paitence to wait until Lv.20.

That said, the Class system in SoV only works for SoV.

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19 hours ago, Armagon said:

No FE game will ever be the unbalanced mess that was FE4. Aside from Barons sucking (but Armors suck in general), i never once felt that classes in SoV were broken. Yes, Mercenaries CAN use the Villager Loop, but it's not required at all (unless you wanna beat Thabes but that's post-game). Dread Fighters are the best Class but they weren't broken; most of my non-Dread Fighter units could easily keep up.

I also don't mind the game encouraging earlier promotions especially since i do promote early regardless of the game because i don't have the paitence to wait until Lv.20.

That said, the Class system in SoV only works for SoV.

The completely unbalanced thing not being required is a pretty weak argument for its imbalance. That's like saying re:Fe4, Wind magic is inherently superior but you don't have to use it. Which is true, but you're still going to use wind magic because it is that good and there's no incentive not to abuse it. Likewise the Dread Fighter to Villager promotion is there, it's massively broken and there's absolutely no incentive not to use it outside of personal pride. It's honestly baffling to me that they kept it in.

Edited by Jotari
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5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The completely unbalanced thing not being required is a pretty weak argument for its imbalance. That's like saying re:Fe4, Wind magic is inherently superior but you don't have to use it. Which is true, but you're still going to use wind magic because it is that good and there's no incentive not to abuse it. Likewise the Dread Fighter to Villager promotion is there, it's massively broken and there's absolutely no incentive not to use it outside of personal pride. It's honestly baffling to me that they kept it in.

Well, they did say that Dread Fighters having the Villager Loop is a reference to how ninjas would live as simple villagers when not doing ninja stuff.

But comparing Dread Fighters to FE4 Wind Magic is pretty unfair. Wind Magic is a weapon type. Dread Fighters are a Class. 

The Villager Loop exists, and it can make units broken, but, unless you want to, there's no reason to do it in a regular playthrough. I know i didn't during my first playthrough. The only time i did use the Villager Loop was in my 2nd playthrough when i wanted to beat Thabes......which is post-game.

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3 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Well, they did say that Dread Fighters having the Villager Loop is a reference to how ninjas would live as simple villagers when not doing ninja stuff.

But comparing Dread Fighters to FE4 Wind Magic is pretty unfair. Wind Magic is a weapon type. Dread Fighters are a Class. 

The Villager Loop exists, and it can make units broken, but, unless you want to, there's no reason to do it in a regular playthrough. I know i didn't during my first playthrough. The only time i did use the Villager Loop was in my 2nd playthrough when i wanted to beat Thabes......which is post-game.

Well perhaps because you never actually used it until post game you don't understand how broken it is. Any mercenary you actually invest in will have the option before the end of the game, personally without even gunning for it, I got a looped Dread Fighter while exploring the Witch Mountain dungeon. By that point in the game every single enemy your villager faces will give it a guaranteed level up. It's not just that the unit gets a tonne of extra levels of growth, they get a tonne of extra levels of growth really, really fast. There's no internal level like in Awakening and there's no stat reductions either. Comparing it to Wind Magic was just for balancing purposes, it's true that avoiding wind magic would have to be a more conscious choice than not looping Dread Fighters. But it's still no big secret or Easter Egg that Dread Fighters can do this. It is not something exclusive to the post game. It's something you'll only likely get in part 4 but it still something that blows the class balance completely out of proportion by making one individual insanely more powerful (and also inexplicably giving them access to every class of their gender).

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Well perhaps because you never actually used it until post game you don't understand how broken it is. Any mercenary you actually invest in will have the option before the end of the game, personally without even gunning for it, I got a looped Dread Fighter while exploring the Witch Mountain dungeon. By that point in the game every single enemy your villager faces will give it a guaranteed level up. It's not just that the unit gets a tonne of extra levels of growth, they get a tonne of extra levels of growth really, really fast. There's no internal level like in Awakening and there's no stat reductions either. Comparing it to Wind Magic was just for balancing purposes, it's true that avoiding wind magic would have to be a more conscious choice than not looping Dread Fighters. But it's still no big secret or Easter Egg that Dread Fighters can do this. It is not something exclusive to the post game. It's something you'll only likely get in part 4 but it still something that blows the class balance completely out of proportion by making one individual insanely more powerful (and also inexplicably giving them access to every class of their gender).

...How much favouritism are you giving your mercenaries such that they're dread fighters on Fear Mountain?

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41 minutes ago, bethany81707 said:

...How much favouritism are you giving your mercenaries such that they're dread fighters on Fear Mountain?

I mean, to be fair, my Gray promoted to Dread Fighter before the end of Act 3.

That being said, he was not a lv.10 Dread Fighter(which is required for the loop) when i reached Fear Mountain. If anything, he reached Lv.10 by the time i got to Rudolf.

Having a Dread Fighter Village Loop at Fear Mountain definitely had a lot of grinding involved.

 

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I fully expect dungeon exploration to be in FE 16, seeing as how they wanted it in Fates.

I'd really like to see the class promotion system where we can promote at a certain point and have 3 tiers of reclassing.

Personally, I'd like a built in randomizer 

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Mostly the Turnwheel, it was such a convenient and useful mechanic for preventing resets without completely breaking the game in half. I'd also like to see the return over Arts, perhaps even over including passive skills like Sol or Luna.

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9 hours ago, bethany81707 said:

...How much favouritism are you giving your mercenaries such that they're dread fighters on Fear Mountain?

I don't know, is that odd? I didn't get any Barons until Part 5 if that helps to understand my experience distribution (promoting ASAP for everyone too).

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32 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't know, is that odd? I didn't get any Barons until Part 5 if that helps to understand my experience distribution (promoting ASAP for everyone too).

I'm pushing it to get my pegasus knights promoted before then. I think they get Sylvan Shrine promotions, but it's a close thing.

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1 hour ago, bethany81707 said:

I'm pushing it to get my pegasus knights promoted before then. I think they get Sylvan Shrine promotions, but it's a close thing.

Do you try to train absolutely every unit? Because if someone's lagging behind I generally drop them even though I can field them (that is to say they're still there but kept pretty far from combat and only around in case of an emergency).

To stop my comment from being completely off topic, I'll throw out a suggestion for new mechanics. What if the Mila's Turnwheel item used a consumable resource (the way I actually thought it worked on my first playthrough). So, like in Shadows of Valentia, you can get up to ten cogs or so but once they're used, they're used. I think this would considerably help it maintain its useful status while also making it something you seriously have to consider the pros and cons of using (well in theory, in practice I imagine most people would always reset and never use it until the final chapter just like every other too good to use resource in existence).

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Do you try to train absolutely every unit? Because if someone's lagging behind I generally drop them even though I can field them (that is to say they're still there but kept pretty far from combat and only around in case of an emergency).

I must be one of the few people to actually aim to use everyone in every Fire Emblem game I play, only benching someone if the RNG hasn't been kind to them with their growths (which honestly rarely happens. I find the "use-everyone" challenge to be quite enjoyable). The small cast of Echoes is a honestly a reason I love the game, because even if someone hasn't turned out stellar, they still have a use, and most of the strategy and challenge of the game comes from dealing with the erratic growth rates (which in my eyes adds replay value). Then again, I am the guy that uses knights enough that they've often been my top performers, rarely, if ever, use Jeigan units, and doesn't give a damn about growth rates, so my playstyle tends to be different from most people.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

To stop my comment from being completely off topic, I'll throw out a suggestion for new mechanics. What if the Mila's Turnwheel item used a consumable resource (the way I actually thought it worked on my first playthrough). So, like in Shadows of Valentia, you can get up to ten cogs or so but once they're used, they're used. I think this would considerably help it maintain its useful status while also making it something you seriously have to consider the pros and cons of using (well in theory, in practice I imagine most people would always reset and never use it until the final chapter just like every other too good to use resource in existence).

Yeah, no. I can definitely see what you're getting at, but I know that super-resourceful me would never touch the thing if that were the case. Especially since limiting the total amount of uses could achieve the same purpose. As I suggested above, I would have 3 uses for the early game, 5 for the midgame, and 7-10 uses by the endgame, with rare/hard sidequests to increase the number of uses it has.

Something I think most people forget about Shadows of Valentia when discussing the high amount of uses the game gave you is that 1. dungeons are present, and considering how long those can get, it's a way of avoiding frustration of having an hour long grind go to waste on the loss of one unit and 2. the game has a single RNG (something I personally want to return, since I like knowing that a 80% chance to hit is really a 80% chance to hit, rather than the fake statistic that the 2 RNG gives us, but I digress) which means that missing a sometimes vital attack can cause serious havoc on the players strategy, so having a option to redo either the attack or their strategy helps alleviate the vexation, while the limit encourages the player to avoid making reckless decisions in the first place.

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10 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

I must be one of the few people to actually aim to use everyone in every Fire Emblem game I play, only benching someone if the RNG hasn't been kind to them with their growths (which honestly rarely happens. I find the "use-everyone" challenge to be quite enjoyable). The small cast of Echoes is a honestly a reason I love the game, because even if someone hasn't turned out stellar, they still have a use, and most of the strategy and challenge of the game comes from dealing with the erratic growth rates (which in my eyes adds replay value). Then again, I am the guy that uses knights enough that they've often been my top performers, rarely, if ever, use Jeigan units, and doesn't give a damn about growth rates, so my playstyle tends to be different from most people.

Yeah, no. I can definitely see what you're getting at, but I know that super-resourceful me would never touch the thing if that were the case. Especially since limiting the total amount of uses could achieve the same purpose. As I suggested above, I would have 3 uses for the early game, 5 for the midgame, and 7-10 uses by the endgame, with rare/hard sidequests to increase the number of uses it has.

Something I think most people forget about Shadows of Valentia when discussing the high amount of uses the game gave you is that 1. dungeons are present, and considering how long those can get, it's a way of avoiding frustration of having an hour long grind go to waste on the loss of one unit and 2. the game has a single RNG (something I personally want to return, since I like knowing that a 80% chance to hit is really a 80% chance to hit, rather than the fake statistic that the 2 RNG gives us, but I digress) which means that missing a sometimes vital attack can cause serious havoc on the players strategy, so having a option to redo either the attack or their strategy helps alleviate the vexation, while the limit encourages the player to avoid making reckless decisions in the first place.

Dungeons exist but the vast majority of them are like really small. Only four have any considerable size to them, Fear Mountain (which incidentally warps you back to the start of it after a failed path), Tower of Duma (where multiple uses are pretty useful), Duma's Shrine (which actually is fairly liberal with save points meaning the Turnwheel isn't super useful) and Thabes (which is post game). So I can definitely see where they were going with it, but by retaining how bare bones the dungeons were in Gaiden, and how easy the encounters are, for the most part, the Turnwheel's number of uses still kind of breaks the bank if you've managed to collect any extra cogs.

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20 hours ago, Jotari said:

Dungeons exist but the vast majority of them are like really small. Only four have any considerable size to them, Fear Mountain (which incidentally warps you back to the start of it after a failed path), Tower of Duma (where multiple uses are pretty useful), Duma's Shrine (which actually is fairly liberal with save points meaning the Turnwheel isn't super useful) and Thabes (which is post game). So I can definitely see where they were going with it, but by retaining how bare bones the dungeons were in Gaiden, and how easy the encounters are, for the most part, the Turnwheel's number of uses still kind of breaks the bank if you've managed to collect any extra cogs.

I know, and I do agree that the game gives you more uses that you'll probably need in the dungeons (except on hard mode, where the game teaches you that even with the high about of cogs you're given, you still shouldn't use them liberally. I nearly learned this the hard way when facing Grieth and Sonia). It's just hard to tell sometimes if people remember this fact when discussing how Mila's turnwheel should return.

Also, something I forgot to mention in an earlier post, I would like for archers to have a 2-3 range as well as the ability to counter-attack. This would give them a greater usage and help them not to be outclassed by mages. Plus it adds to overall strategy, and when isn't that a bad thing?

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12 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

I know, and I do agree that the game gives you more uses that you'll probably need in the dungeons (except on hard mode, where the game teaches you that even with the high about of cogs you're given, you still shouldn't use them liberally. I nearly learned this the hard way when facing Grieth and Sonia). It's just hard to tell sometimes if people remember this fact when discussing how Mila's turnwheel should return.

Also, something I forgot to mention in an earlier post, I would like for archers to have a 2-3 range as well as the ability to counter-attack. This would give them a greater usage and help them not to be outclassed by mages. Plus it adds to overall strategy, and when isn't that a bad thing?

I think its clear that the mechanics of Shadows of Valentia were designed with something bigger in mind, like dungeons the size of Thabes being the norm. Because aside from the cogs being overly liberal, the stamina system is basically non existent. Unless you're very intently soloing entire maps with just one character, barely anyone is ever going to get fatigued. And even when a unit does get fatigued you practically have an infinite supply of food to cure the status so it only becomes a problem if you somehow just forget to do that.

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Phew, haven't been in Serenes a while. I'm playing in Echoes now, and there is a lot I don't like, but a few things I love.

-Turnwheel system is a great addition, and so much better than Phoenix mode.

-Villages

-Characters retaining their color scheme and other small details in every available job to them.

-Always having a weapon equipped.

-Archers having the huge range.

-Dungeons, great for grinding and to break up the content, but the maps used were so boring.

That's it. Echoes is really weird and dated, but the presentation is so high, and the details on that front are far more welcome than the gameplay quirks.

The map designs are terrible. The magic costing HP only really works in this game. The terrain bonuses are too OP. The Shrine system makes character growth too much of a chore. The supports here are laughably bad. Bonus EXP makes grinding to easy. Alm is scarily overpowered. 

 

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