How have your opinions on SoV changed?

[vanguard333]

Honestly my opinion on Echoes hasn't changed much as I look back on it. It had some interesting potential, and I wish it was better. But it also wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been.

The gameplay was largely good, but not without problems. I liked the 1-5 space archery and Mila's Turnwheel, but disliked how easy it sometimes was to miss items and opportunities.

The graphics were good. I like how a lot of the weapons in the game are actually reasonably proportioned (aside from Rudolf's massive lance and the anti-cavalry lance). I even like how the Falchion's blade looks more bone than other weapons, implying it's origins as being made from the fang of a divine dragon.

The story had a lot of interesting potential. I'm going to focus on one in particular: Rudolf could have been such an amazing subversion of the one-dimensional conquer everything FE villain. They did so much to highlight what was going on in Zofia before the war, and, in chapter one, we hear the supposed motivation behind Rudolf's actions: the Zofian king ended the food trade that Rigel supposedly really needed. But then we learn that, supposedly so he could enter Zofian territory without suffering the consequences of breaking the accord, he sealed Mila's power away with the Falchion. But that raises the question: shouldn't he have realized that sealing away Mila would deprive Zofia of the food Rigel supposedly needed? Then we learn that Alm is Rudolf's son, and his plan was actually to remove the people's dependence on Duma and Mila. He knew Alm bared the brand, and Alm and Celica were fated to end Duma and Mila. The motivation of his plans were clear: put Alm in Zofia where the Duma Faithful, who were madly feeding on Duma's power like a parasite, wouldn't find Alm. Rudolf could see the signs that Duma and Mila were degenerating, and both lands were feeling the affects, and he knew he had to pave the way for Alm and Celica, and remove the people of their dependence on Mila and Duma. But then, this is the part where the plot, in retrospect, hits a major problem: why the war? Sealing Mila away is one thing, but, if his true motivation was to bring their end, why invade Zofia? Why provoke Alm into invading Rigel, and then oppose Alm at every turn until the end? Why tolerate the Duma Faithful; the ones who would actually pose a threat to the safety of Valentia? What was actually going on in Rigel? His character motivation made sense, but it makes a lot of his actions cease making sense in hindsight, and his plan felt extremely flimsy and insufficiently explained.

[Sentinel07]

After I completed a playthrough, I put it down as my 4th favorite game in the franchise. As of right now, that remains the same.

Admittingly, the gameplay is rather average, but the brilliant presentation, battle animations, music, and all of that keep me invested all the same. It's what brings me back for more playthroughs because I want to experience the story all over again, despite how everyone claims it has "zero replayability" and junk.

[Tolvir]

Gameplay wise, my view of it changed a lot. As a Fire Emblem game, its clunky, its annoying, map design is bad, balance is all out of wack, and is probably one of the worst gameplay wise for the series, rivaled only by Awakening and Holy War.

But when you stop looking at it as a Fire Emblem game that kind of changes. The one thing this game kept reminding me of, and I still cant quite place why, is Dungeons and Dragons. It felt like playing Fire Emblem in a D&D style. Like I said, I cant quite place why it feels this way to me, but it kind of gave me an all new perspective on the gameplay of Echoes. It kind of made me enjoy the gameplay a lot more. Its still quite clunky, and definitely has its issues, but I found a sort of charm in it that helps me enjoy the game.

Story wise, after reading a lot of analysis I will say it definitely has its flaws. Lots of them, but regardless of all of that it was a step in the right direction. The story was a lot more engaging than Fates was, it had a good bit of dialogue, there was world building, there were various villains each with their own motivations, there were a few twists (that you could see from a mile away, but regardless), and overall the story was an enjoyable experience. I will take that over the confusing and almost frustrating mess that was Conquest any day of the week. Im not looking for award winning writing that would make A Song of Fire And Ice look like a children's book, I just want an enjoyable story and experience. Echoes provided that.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Tolvir

[epilepsyduck]

Echoes sits fairly dead-center on my list of favorites for the franchise, and has since I first played it. Of course, it's not been very long and my thoughts and feelings on the matter tend to shift a lot (my feelings on Awakening and RD have warmed quite a bit, while my fondness for PoR has significantly waned), but overall I like it even if elements of it (namely Celica's abysmal treatment) frustrate me. Though that's pretty much my opinion of all the games in the franchise outside of the ones I outright hate, so that's nothing special.

I might go a bit more in depth later but rn I don't have the time

[Seazas]

On 8/15/2017 at 6:01 AM, NekoKnight said:

My opinion is mostly the same. Great music, a good supporting cast and some interesting gameplay mechanics. On the negative side, the story is a mess; not quite Fates tier but still pretty awful. Could have done without swamps and summon spam too.

I'd say Rudolf's and Azura's plans are about equal. Both rely on a lot of uncertainties and cause a lot of needless deaths. In some ways, the Rudolf plan is even worse because it's not really clear why he needed to start a war, where Azura at least had the excuse (no matter how insane it was) that getting Garon on the chair would get the Nohrians to turn on him.

Actually that's wrong. It was apart of the prophecy and Alm just wouldn't randomly come to Rigel unless a war started. Prophecies were always used and correct in Fire Emblem sooo... Rudolf's plan has more backing than it did with Gaiden. A prophecy that will obviously get everything right does wonders. Rudolf > Azura.

Rudolf actually TOLD people about his plan (his retainer Massena and Mycen) unlike Azura who doesn't say jack shit and could've likely prevent a lot of stuff. Rudolf had no other options since trying to get Rigelians to face their main god Duma wouldn't leave him with much. 

[NekoKnight]

8 hours ago, Peaceful_User said:

Actually that's wrong. It was apart of the prophecy and Alm just wouldn't randomly come to Rigel unless a war started. Prophecies were always used and correct in Fire Emblem sooo... Rudolf's plan has more backing than it did with Gaiden. A prophecy that will obviously get everything right does wonders. Rudolf > Azura.

Rudolf actually TOLD people about his plan (his retainer Massena and Mycen) unlike Azura who doesn't say jack shit and could've likely prevent a lot of stuff. Rudolf had no other options since trying to get Rigelians to face their main god Duma wouldn't leave him with much. 

Or he could just tell Alm what's up instead of starting a war? If you want to say "It's fine because of prophesies and shit" then Azura's plan was fine too because Corrin is prophesied to save the world too. Azura told Corrin her plan, just as Rudolf did to Massena and Mycen. Neither of their actions prevented the tragedies that occurred in their stories.

 

[Seazas]

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

Or he could just tell Alm what's up instead of starting a war? If you want to say "It's fine because of prophesies and shit" then Azura's plan was fine too because Corrin is prophesied to save the world too. Azura told Corrin her plan, just as Rudolf did to Massena and Mycen. Neither of their actions prevented the tragedies that occurred in their stories.

 

No he couldn't. He had to send him away because of the Duma Faithful and the prophecy was the most reliable anyway. She rarely said anything until it was too late. Azura should've at least told people than just Corrin when it already happened to even if she would've had to watch her wording to not say "Valla" 

[NekoKnight]

5 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

No he couldn't. He had to send him away because of the Duma Faithful and the prophecy was the most reliable anyway. She rarely said anything until it was too late. Azura should've at least told people than just Corrin when it already happened to even if she would've had to watch her wording to not say "Valla" 

So he sends Alm away and tells him when he's old enough to fight Duma. Why did Alm have to kill his own father again?

I'm not denying that Azura is a massive idiot and horrible person. I'm saying Rudolf is just as bad.

[Dark Holy Elf]

14 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

So he sends Alm away and tells him when he's old enough to fight Duma. Why did Alm have to kill his own father again?

Not only this, but more importantly, why did thousands of Zofian and Rigelian soldiers have to die? Rudolf's "plan" is utterly indefensible.

[CriticalMiss]

12 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

If you want to say "It's fine because of prophesies and shit" then Azura's plan was fine too because Corrin is prophesied to save the world too.

I just had a question about this. Does Azura know that the prophecy is about Corrin, or was she only hoping that it was about him/her? It's been a while since I've played through Fates, so I can't remember.

[Thinks Their Own Way]

10 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

I just had a question about this. Does Azura know that the prophecy is about Corrin, or was she only hoping that it was about him/her? It's been a while since I've played through Fates, so I can't remember.

Azura and the Hoshidian siblings were there when that prophecy was introduced at the end of Chapter 5.

Edited August 27, 2017 by I'm a Spheal

[CriticalMiss]

17 minutes ago, I'm a Spheal said:

Azura and the Hoshidian siblings were there when that prophecy was introduced at the end of Chapter 5.

Oh, right, when Corrin gets the Yato. Azura could then have connected Corrin with the prophecy in "Lost in Thoughts All Alone." Thanks for your reply!

[Seazas]

12 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

So he sends Alm away and tells him when he's old enough to fight Duma. Why did Alm have to kill his own father again?

I'm not denying that Azura is a massive idiot and horrible person. I'm saying Rudolf is just as bad.

Rudolf is not as bad because he didn't have a choice. If he kept him there the Duma Faithful DEFINITELY would've found him and killed him for having a brand. He couldn't just waltz out of Rigel either being an emperor doesn't work like that. 

[Seazas]

Rudolf >>> Azura 

Lol. Azura does the "mysterious girl" bullshit all wrong. 

If Rudolf went to tell it's obvious someone would've found out anyway and boom Rigel is still against Alm's army. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Peaceful_User

[Skell_]

First off, Rudolf's plan while a bit dumb, was still fun to discover and overall I at least got the feeling he was a badass mastermind determined to defeat the gods.

Gameplay wise, I didn't like some of the mechanics like the set accuracy of magic or the promotion gains as the bases are way too low for some of them and I hated some of the map design as it was just tedious. The characters were good though, my only gripe is that I don't get enough of them. Characters like Genny are just sorta thrown to the wayside and that's kind of lame. Without unique max stats for each class, it kind of diminishes the role each class had before.

My views on Echoes went from Wow This is Great -> Wow, this is broken -> Eh, I had fun. Might as well beat the endgame.

It's not my favorite Fire Emblem but it's not the worst either. I just wish they improved the map design more than anything and possibly more classes. Maybe, give some use for that random Devil Axe just hanging around that no one can use. 

Now, what really pissed me off was the DLC. $14 for all the overclasses and 2 DLC packs that have the exact same function except one's worse? Hahahaa! No...

[Nobody]

Sort of improved. I learned to like it for what it is and appreciate its differences. I think its a solid game and probably the 2nd best Fire Emblem on the 3ds (Conquest is a VERY distant number 1), and tbh i'm glad they decided to keep it faithful to Gaiden.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Nobody

[Slumber]

It's the same as it was at release.

[Topaz Light]

At first, I was just completely enamored with the game, since I'd been wanting another Fire Emblem game more in the vein of the classic, pre-DS titles… pretty much since before Fates even was announced. I really enjoyed my first playthrough of the game quite a bit.

Now, my opinion has kinda leveled out a bit and, while I still hold the game in pretty high regard, I'm more conscious of its flaws. The map design choices are downright wonky to at times even indefensible, and the lack of class-specific stat caps definitely hurts a lot more than it helps; there is literally no reason to ever make someone a Baron over a Gold Knight, ultimately, for example. The story has a lot of flaws, but I find it enjoyable regardless… I'd say all in all it's probably about equal with Awakening's story, having stronger strong points which in turn make its weaker aspects hurt more. Echoes is better in certain areas; certainly worldbuilding, at least, although it is the same world, so…

I do still really love Gaiden/Echoes' magic system, though; it's honestly my favorite take on magic so far in the series. Each character having their own spell list in magical classes… for the most part… adds another layer to each character having unique properties that are affixed to them, which was a really big thing I liked about how Skills worked in Jugdral and Tellius. I just wish they'd given every character a non-generic spell list and not just the characters who can access magical classes without DLC plus Conrad. The way they buffed Archers was also a very interesting approach to that particular issue, too. To be honest, I think that Gaiden introduced a lot of gameplay concepts that warrant further exploration than they got. Just… maybe leave that map design by the wayside where it belongs, haha~

As for the story, I loved the characters the first time around, and I only appreciate them more as I read more supports and base conversations that I may have missed the first time, and try them out in different classes and such. For me, at least, Fire Emblem Echoes' cast absolutely blows away Awakening's and Fates'. The voice acting actually contributes a lot to each character's characterization; more than I expected going into the game, to be honest. My only complain vis a vis the characters and their interactions is that there aren't nearly enough supports. The extra Rise of the Deliverance supports are stellar; some of the best in the game, honestly. I just wish there were more supports in the game.

I also wish Celica didn't get shafted so hard as the story drew to a close. That really, really sucked, honestly.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Topaz Light

[DragonFlames]

On 3.9.2017 at 0:34 PM, Topaz Light said:

At first, I was just completely enamored with the game, since I'd been wanting another Fire Emblem game more in the vein of the classic, pre-DS titles… pretty much since before Fates even was announced. I really enjoyed my first playthrough of the game quite a bit.

Now, my opinion has kinda leveled out a bit and I still hold the game in pretty high regard, but I'm more conscious of its flaws. The map design choices are downright wonky to at times even indefensible, and the lack of class-specific stat caps definitely hurts a lot more than it helps; there is literally no reason to ever make someone a Baron over a Gold Knight, ultimately, for example. The story has a lot of flaws, but I find it enjoyable regardless… I'd say all in all it's probably about equal with Awakening's story, having stronger strong points which in turn make its weaker aspects hurt more. Echoes is better in certain areas; certainly worldbuilding, at least, although it is the same world, so…

I do still really love Gaiden/Echoes' magic system, though; it's honestly my favorite take on magic so far in the series. Each character having their own spell list in magical classes… for the most part… adds another layer to each character having unique properties that are affixed to them, which was a really big thing I liked about how Skills worked in Jugdral and Tellius. I just wish they'd given every character a non-generic spell list and not just the characters who can access magical classes without DLC plus Conrad. The way they buffed Archers was also a very interesting approach to that particular issue, too. To be honest, I think that Gaiden introduced a lot of gameplay concepts that warrant further exploration than they got. Just… maybe leave that map design by the wayside where it belongs, haha~

As for the story, I loved the characters the first time around, and I only appreciate them more as I read more supports and base conversations that I may have missed the first time, and try them out in different classes and such. For me, at least, Fire Emblem Echoes' cast absolutely blows away Awakening's and Fates'. The voice acting actually contributes a lot to each character's characterization; more than I expected going into the game, to be honest. My only complain vis a vis the characters and their interactions is that there aren't nearly enough supports. The extra Rise of the Deliverance supports are stellar; some of the best in the game, honestly. I just wish there were more supports in the game.

I also wish Celica didn't get shafted so hard as the story drew to a close. That really, really sucked, honestly.

That actually reminds me of something I really disliked about Echoes. Most character endings (especially the females') were absolutely nonsensical.
Also, I agree with your assessment.
I really liked Celica as a character and I can understand from a story and world standpoint why she acted like she did, even though to someone who is on the outside looking in she might appear to be stupid, but I'm not going to go in depth about this, as it will surely derail this topic and I don't want that to happen.

Also Rudolf >>>>>>>>>>> Azura. If only because Azura is one of the most despicable people in FE history. And that includes Valter the (implied) Rapist.

[The Unlikely Knight]

26 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

That actually reminds me of something I really disliked about Echoes. Most character endings (especially the females') were absolutely nonsensical.
Also, I agree with your assessment.
I really liked Celica as a character and I can understand from a story and world standpoint why she acted like she did, even though to someone who is on the outside looking in she might appear to be stupid, but I'm not going to go in depth about this, as it will surely derail this topic and I don't want that to happen.

Also Rudolf >>>>>>>>>>> Azura. If only because Azura is one of the most despicable people in FE history. And that includes Valter the (implied) Rapist.

Your last paragraph intrigues me. I just beat Birthright for the first time, and I'm wondering why Azura is despicable. I'm guessing I'll get my answer when I play Conquest and Revelation in the future.

 

Anyway, back on topic, I still have a lot of love for this game, but I definitely don't like the map balance between the two paths. I don't have too much of a problem with the open field maps, but I wish Celica had some more of those kind of maps rather than deserts and swamps that are hard to maneuver in. If I could I would swap half of the desert to Alm's route and at least one of the swamp maps.

Oh, and I wish there were more support conversations, but only for characters it would make sense to have conversations with. Such as Alm having one with all the Ram villagers, Valbar with Kamui, and (this one being one I can't believe they don't have) Alm with Celica, to name some examples I'd like.

 

Other than that, I still love the game and currently consider it my favorite FE game.

Edited September 4, 2017 by The Unlikely Knight

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Also Rudolf >>>>>>>>>>> Azura. If only because Azura is one of the most despicable people in FE history.

I strongly disagree with this. Azura, like many characters, were screwed over by Fates' writing. However, Azura's Supports, like many others, were actually pretty decent.

Basically, there exist two Azuras: Story!Azura and Support!Azura. The former is written terribly while the latter is written pretty decently.

[CriticalMiss]

On 9/3/2017 at 6:34 AM, Topaz Light said:

I also wish Celica didn't get shafted so hard as the story drew to a close. That really, really sucked, honestly.

 

9 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

I really liked Celica as a character and I can understand from a story and world standpoint why she acted like she did

I agree with both of you. From a character perspective, everything Celica did was in line with her traits and added some depth to her, in my opinion; I really liked that we got a flawed main character who grew from her mistakes. From a feminist perspective though, I really dislike it, not so much because of Celica's actions in particular, but because literally every single female lord has been shafted, except arguably Azura, who, as many others have pointed out, also has quite a few story issues. Hopefully IS will rectify this in FE Switch.

 

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

Basically, there exist two Azuras: Story!Azura and Support!Azura. The former is written terribly while the latter is written pretty decently.

Also, I agree with this. I enjoyed reading through some of Azura's supports and liked her reserved personality. For me, Azura is like Conrad in that her story contributions were terrible while the rest of her was good.

 

9 hours ago, The Unlikely Knight said:

Anyway, back on topic, I still have a lot of love for this game, but I definitely don't like the map balance between the two paths. I don't have too much of a problem with the open field maps, but I wish Celica had some more of those kind of maps rather than deserts and swamps that are hard to maneuver in. If I could I would swap half of the desert to Alm's route and at least one of the swamp maps.

Or they could just get rid of desert maps forever.

Seriously though, I didn't mind the poison swamps that much, but deserts were a pain. I enjoyed Grieth's Citadel, but that was because I only had to deal with desert terrain in the very beginning. I've played several FE games, and deserts have always been the worst. I mean, does anyone actually like desert maps? I understand that IS wants to have a variety of different map types, but I don't think many people would miss desert maps if IS decided to do away with them.

 

To be somewhat on topic, my opinion of Act 6 has declined. I really enjoyed going through it the first time and still appreciate that SoV has a post game, but it's become a little boring. Thabes was fun and intense at first, but it becomes repetitive after a while. I also dislike that NPCs in villages disappear. It made Valentia, which had seemed so vibrant during the game, feel empty. Also, a small nitpick, but if you ignore Nuibaba during the main campaign, you cannot fight her in the post game. I understand that it would not have made sense story-wise to fight her after the game, but it still would have been neat if you could have done so.

[Armagon]

4 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

I didn't mind the poison swamps that much,

Same. Main reason being is that the Whitewings pretty much make the swamp maps super easy. I suppose that is a point against the swamp maps but everyone makes it look like swamp maps are super tedious when they really aren't.

 

[CriticalMiss]

51 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Same. Main reason being is that the Whitewings pretty much make the swamp maps super easy. I suppose that is a point against the swamp maps but everyone makes it look like swamp maps are super tedious when they really aren't.

 

Exactly. Plus, all of the rings and blessed weapons in combination with Genny's passives as a Saint help to heal or negate the terrain damage.

[NekoKnight]

5 hours ago, Armagon said:

Same. Main reason being is that the Whitewings pretty much make the swamp maps super easy. I suppose that is a point against the swamp maps but everyone makes it look like swamp maps are super tedious when they really aren't.

 

I didn't think the swamp maps were hard, but I did find them to be tedious. It's just not good game design to have your units crawl forward, needing to be babysat by healers as your only 3 units that can move freely do most of the fighting.