Opinions on that Fire Emblem Echoes SoV Character #1-#52 (Check the OP)

[Ertrick36]

Ye, now I'm rapid fire on these characters.  Lemme at 'em!

Waltzing Mathilda

Spoiler

A terrific female soldier marred by the game's chauvinism.

Aside from her first appearance as a prisoner (taking on a suggestive pose, 'cuz that's what girls in prisons do apparently can any actual girls confirm?  Do female inmates just sit in their cells in ways that expose much of their legs or cleavage?  Or is it fake noose?), everything about her and what you're told of her indicates a strong, fairly independent woman who takes no prisoners.  Yet if you complete the game with Clive still alive, her ending goes full Dragon Ball chauvinism and turns her into a housewife.

In fact, I'd almost say that's more of a disappointment than Faye, Berkut, Fernand, or anyone else people have said had "wasted potential" because she actually did have potential.  There's no reason they should've turned her into a housewife other than to stay true to the original, but to hell with that notion.  She deserved better, man.  She deserved to be the bad ass Rigelian genocider she was meant to be, not just the smiling stay-at-home indentured servant of the less competent Clive, wasting away her excellent combat skills.

Dammit, Japan, why must you do this to me?

Gennysburg Address

Spoiler

I'll come out and say I ship her with Saber, though that isn't necessarily because I want them together; it's just that all the evidence is there.  Genny's a weirdo who is obsessed with older men.

Anyway, whatever happened to her desires to write a book about their journeys?  This, again, is what you get when you try to reuse the shitty endings of Gaiden without thinking about how to write the rest of the game to be consistent with those endings.

Regardless, I did like her support line with Sonya.  I mean, Sonya kickstarts it with "hello, tiny one", so you know it's gotta be good with a greeting as silly as that.  But seriously, she has a history that she bonds with Sonya over, which is rather sweet.

Franz Fernand

Spoiler

Didn't I use this joke already?

I might make some of the same points I have before.  Also, I have no good reason to be this passionately disappointed about him... that's just the way things is.

So Fernand is a huge waste of effort.  I think one of the purposes for his inclusion was to further elaborate and exaggerate the themes of classism that are quite prevalent throughout the story.  The best method for this, in my opinion, is to make a character who is "naturally" bigoted (which is sort of what Maribelle or Clair are, but not quite) or one who has good reasoning for his bigotry, and one who is also sympathetic.  Fernand is none of those.

First of all, his classism isn't natural; it sprung into existence when some angery villagers killed "muh family".  So it does have emotional value at least, but it definitely wasn't naturally occurring.  What I mean by "naturally occurring" isn't that he was born with it, mind you.  I mean that he'd have been raised to believe that his station would imply superiority.  There's no indication that he felt this way before the incident with the villagers, and given that his friends are so open-minded, I highly doubt it's the case.

Fernand's reasoning for his classism is irrational.  With a character like Oboro, you could "get" her bigotry because the country is literally run by cutthroats and mad men who want nothing more than to bring chaos and destruction to the world, and the land of Nohr is stricken with great strife all around.  Soren also has a story for his prejudice that's made relevant.  But while Fernand's prejudice certainly has emotional value, it lacks intellectual value.  He never explains why he thinks Alm being a commoner means he shouldn't lead the Deliverance.  He could've talked about how commoners don't understand the weight that soldiers and nobility carry in their jobs sort of like how Celica did, he could've mentioned that common folk don't have the knowledge or experience to effectively carry out a war, or he even could have used his past with commoners to explain why it would be bad to give them the authority to wage wars.

But what does he do instead?  He just screams about "baseborn curs" and tradition.  When Clive announces that Alm would be the leader of the Deliverance, Fernand just threw a fit while pretty much everyone else explained why he was wrong for discriminating against Alm.  In this way, not only is there no actual challenge to Alm's rise to power, but the impact of the classist conflict is stifled terribly.  You could completely change his prejudice to anything else - Alm being of a certain race, gender, blood type, age, height, or how long he lasts in bed - and nothing would be changed.  It just becomes a generic struggle against prejudice, which makes it lose a ton of weight.  I like it when stories explore the perspectives of those with ill thoughts, but they don't do that for Fernand; he's just some bad guy that's supposed to turn good before he dies.

And as far as how sympathetic he gets...  That sorry scene of him being all apologetic in the end isn't winning any favors.  If someone insulted my friends and family, joined the army of the factions I directly oppose, and outright tried to kill me, and all they had to offer me was "sowwy", I would walk away and leave him to die alone like the sorry sack of shit he is.  And that base convo doesn't do much, either.  Sure, he's all buddy buddy with Clair and Clive, but he turns on them just because they decide that a lowborn fighter should be their new leader.  Yeah, real great friend you are, ain't ya?

And I know that's sort of how Darth Vader's story went - good at first, finds kinship and love, then betrays them all - but the difference is that Vader actually did something to redeem himself by saving his son from an evil emperor and, in the same stroke, effectively destroying the evil empire he worked so long for (only for his PoS edgy grandson to work with some freak so that he could ruin the Rebellion's work).  Fernand, at most, just reveals some plot elements that either were already revealed or would get revealed eventually.

Fuck Fernand.

 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Mathilda: She's definitely one of my favorite characters unit-wise. She was a beast, destroying everything in her path and totally outclassing Clive in pretty much every single way. Her design is pretty nice, too. As a character, however, I didn't find her quite as well-written as some of the others. Yes, I like her, but her ending felt weird, and her role in the story seemed too understated. I'd of liked to actually seen more of her, what she's said to have done, and whatever else, in the main story and not through DLC. She's a good character, just...underutilized.

Genny: Like Mathilda, I felt Genny was underutilized. She's one of Celica's first companions, I expected her to at least have supports with Celica, Mae or Boey! But nope, she gets ONE support chain. With Sonya. Which you miss if you get Deen. She doesn't say enough in the story to develop her character as much as I REALLY wanted her to, because I relate to her writing habits as I too would love to write/publish stories. I like what was shown of her, and I like her supports with Sonya, but she needed more. A lot more. As a unit, she was very useful as she's the first healer you get on Celica's army, and I also found use for her in combat when her healing wasn't needed! Her design is good too, it suits her.

Fernand: I honestly have much of the same to say about Fernand as I did with Mathilda and Genny. He had potential, but the story didn't utilize it properly. His backstory isn't used when it should be, he doesn't explain his reasoning against Alm being the leader and just up and defects, and it all just seems weird when he suddenly shows remorse while dying in Clive's arms. Honestly, most of his scenes seemed like they were there for the benefit of whoever he was with, not Fernand himself, and I wish they'd have balanced it out more. His design is fine, but I never found him to be a particularly challenging boss.

[Jingle Jangle]

Mathilda: For me the best Paladin for the entire roster. Near the end game I equipped her with  Saunion. Making her a mobile artillery. As a character she is very close with Clive, and knows that she is a better warrior than he will ever will be. Shame she threw that away to be a housewife, mostly staying at home.

Genny: I'm ready to roll!  The best healer in the game period. She save my skin so many times spanning expel, and invoke. Without her, I wouldn't enjoy the game as much. As a character, she had less of a role compared to other characters in Celica's story.  And only one support conversation, so there is not as much to go on. But I enjoyed her creative thoughts.

Fernand: He is a petty Cavalier that hates commoners. Nothing more.

[Seazas]

Smh so many people that didn't see the DLC and don't know jack about Fernand. 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

36 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Smh so many people that didn't see the DLC and don't know jack about Fernand. 

OR! Or. Now bear with me here...some people DID see the DLC, but realize that it doesn't change how poorly handled Fernand is in the main story! :D

[Seazas]

6 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

OR! Or. Now bear with me here...some people DID see the DLC, but realize that it doesn't change how poorly handled Fernand is in the main story! :D

It makes Fernand a dozen times more sympathetic wtf are you talking about. 

 

It proves Fernand wasn't a dick before he got his life utterly ruined. Yet he was willing to stay anyway for the kingdom but even then that got ruined but he was willing to die for it anyway but when Clive handed the leadership flag to Alm which can be downright ridiculous in some peoples eyes of course Fernand would leave. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Peaceful_User

[Thane]

3 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Franz Fernand

  Reveal hidden contents

Didn't I use this joke already?

I might make some of the same points I have before.  Also, I have no good reason to be this passionately disappointed about him... that's just the way things is.

So Fernand is a huge waste of effort.  I think one of the purposes for his inclusion was to further elaborate and exaggerate the themes of classism that are quite prevalent throughout the story.  The best method for this, in my opinion, is to make a character who is "naturally" bigoted (which is sort of what Maribelle or Clair are, but not quite) or one who has good reasoning for his bigotry, and one who is also sympathetic.  Fernand is none of those.

First of all, his classism isn't natural; it sprung into existence when some angery villagers killed "muh family".  So it does have emotional value at least, but it definitely wasn't naturally occurring.  What I mean by "naturally occurring" isn't that he was born with it, mind you.  I mean that he'd have been raised to believe that his station would imply superiority.  There's no indication that he felt this way before the incident with the villagers, and given that his friends are so open-minded, I highly doubt it's the case.

Fernand's reasoning for his classism is irrational.  With a character like Oboro, you could "get" her bigotry because the country is literally run by cutthroats and mad men who want nothing more than to bring chaos and destruction to the world, and the land of Nohr is stricken with great strife all around.  Soren also has a story for his prejudice that's made relevant.  But while Fernand's prejudice certainly has emotional value, it lacks intellectual value.  He never explains why he thinks Alm being a commoner means he shouldn't lead the Deliverance.  He could've talked about how commoners don't understand the weight that soldiers and nobility carry in their jobs sort of like how Celica did, he could've mentioned that common folk don't have the knowledge or experience to effectively carry out a war, or he even could have used his past with commoners to explain why it would be bad to give them the authority to wage wars.

But what does he do instead?  He just screams about "baseborn curs" and tradition.  When Clive announces that Alm would be the leader of the Deliverance, Fernand just threw a fit while pretty much everyone else explained why he was wrong for discriminating against Alm.  In this way, not only is there no actual challenge to Alm's rise to power, but the impact of the classist conflict is stifled terribly.  You could completely change his prejudice to anything else - Alm being of a certain race, gender, blood type, age, height, or how long he lasts in bed - and nothing would be changed.  It just becomes a generic struggle against prejudice, which makes it lose a ton of weight.  I like it when stories explore the perspectives of those with ill thoughts, but they don't do that for Fernand; he's just some bad guy that's supposed to turn good before he dies.

And as far as how sympathetic he gets...  That sorry scene of him being all apologetic in the end isn't winning any favors.  If someone insulted my friends and family, joined the army of the factions I directly oppose, and outright tried to kill me, and all they had to offer me was "sowwy", I would walk away and leave him to die alone like the sorry sack of shit he is.  And that base convo doesn't do much, either.  Sure, he's all buddy buddy with Clair and Clive, but he turns on them just because they decide that a lowborn fighter should be their new leader.  Yeah, real great friend you are, ain't ya?

And I know that's sort of how Darth Vader's story went - good at first, finds kinship and love, then betrays them all - but the difference is that Vader actually did something to redeem himself by saving his son from an evil emperor and, in the same stroke, effectively destroying the evil empire he worked so long for (only for his PoS edgy grandson to work with some freak so that he could ruin the Rebellion's work).  Fernand, at most, just reveals some plot elements that either were already revealed or would get revealed eventually.

Fuck Fernand.

 

Pretty much my opinion on Fernand as well. Intelligent System often overestimates just how much sympathy their characters are worth, and we can see this with Berkut, Rudolf and Mycen in the same game. I really wanted to like Fernand with his awesome design and voice acting, and I really want more human characters, but the sad thing is that he came across as anything but human in how he was handled. You want to protest against an inexperienced person taking charge of the Deliverance, which could threaten their chance at liberating Zofia? Great, that's a reasonable reaction. However, defecting because of a hatred for all lowborns because some random people killed his family, however tragic that may be, is just bizarre. It would be like hating all sailors just because a fisherman killed your family.

Mathilda

She's alright, I guess. Her support with Clive is rather funny. However, I don't find her very interesting at all, and her epilogue comes out of left field. 

Genny

A character who can have zero supports depending on how you go about the game. She has no main story role, and a very bland personality and base monologue. I'm not sure I understand her crazy popularity - it's not like I actively dislike her or anything, but she's just sort of there to me. I don't even think her support with Sonya is particularly stellar, either, though it seems to be one of the more popular ones in the game.

[bethany81707]

2 hours ago, Peaceful_User said:

It makes Fernand a dozen times more sympathetic wtf are you talking about. 

 

It proves Fernand wasn't a dick before he got his life utterly ruined. Yet he was willing to stay anyway for the kingdom but even then that got ruined but he was willing to die for it anyway but when Clive handed the leadership flag to Alm which can be downright ridiculous in some peoples eyes of course Fernand would leave. 

Are you kidding? He got more sexist in the Rise of the Deliverance stuff. Heck, he might not even be sexist in the base game!

Wait... that's not why everyone else hates him?

[Etrurian emperor]

Fernand

I think Fernand is written in a very flawed way. He's meant to come off as sympathetic but he really, really isn't. I'm not sure how much a point the writers wanted him to have but I don't believe it was their intention to write a character so utterly devoid of rational behavior, yet that's how he comes off as.
Fernant either wants to fight both Rigel and Desaix with only the upper class or he wants the lower classes to pull their weight without any of them getting a single reward from it. Even the Begnion senators weren't that snobby and even Valtome comes off as a completely rational figure when compared to Fernand. 

And his behavior isn't even consistent. If promoting a commoner is such a crime that he's willing to defect why doesn't he ditch Rigel too for promoting a nobody like Zeke to a general?

Its hard to like Fernand when he's such a jerk and its hard to have much sympathy for him when he's just so obviously in the wrong everytime he opens his mouth. He's better in the DLC but you could argue having to pay extra for Fernand not being complete trash is even worse. 

Mathilda

I like the whole battle goddess thing they have going for her and I certainly appreciate her stats conveying that. She's the best pony Alm's party has. Alm and Grey reacting to her as well as Clive and her being constantly lovey dovey with each other comes off amusing without making Mathilda merely focused on sex appeal. She's got plenty of competence too, being one of the leading figures in the deliverance rather then just a Clive supporter. 
I really don't like her ending though.

Genny

Genny succeeds in coming off as a cute character. Its just that 'moe'' characters who are designed to be cute rather then actually being cute through their actions(like Mae) never really does anything for me. Mae is constantly funny and expressive so I'm more inclined to view her as the cute girl. It doesn't help that Genny really doesn't have a lot of conversations
I think her older man fetish is pretty amusing though. I'd like to have seen a chat between her and Saber about it, or her and Leo going on about Valbar. 

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Etrurian emperor

[epilepsyduck]

Fernand

BLEH. Unlike Berkbitch who at least had a second or two where he seemed possibly interesting, Ferny burned that bridge basically immediately. He was an entitled douche from moment one, and never came across as sympathetically as the game apparently expected him to. That he gets namedropped of all people in the final chapter but Rinea doesn't is peak bullshit, because Fernand actively earned and deserved what eventually befell him. And sure, people say the DLC added more to him, but when you need to add paid content to make a character less unbearable, you've already got a problem.

Mathilda

Excellent/10. I love lady paladins, and I love powerhouse ladies, and Mathilda provides both in one package. She was easily my top Gold Knight when all was said and done (not like her competition was much to look at anyway), and I even Villager Forked her and looped her back to Gold Knight so she'd have an easier time handling Thabes. An effectively 120 Level Mathilda with the Rhompaia is a beautiful thing to see. I gotta say, though, the narrative's treatment of her is utterly lame. She deserves far better than to be an accessory to her boring husband, and in fact I'd argue she deserved to take his story role entirely. But that's just IntSys and their perennial sexism I guess.

Genny

Really, really deserved better. She's one of Celica's friends, setting out with her on her adventure from the very start, so she really deserved to have supports with someone other than an optional character (no matter how fantastic that optional character is). It's all part of how Echoes diminishes anyone who respects Celica in favor of just filling her party with dudes who treat her like ass tbh. At least she's got a cute design, and she's a pretty decent Cleric with a good spell list, even if her HP pool gets taxed from being the only Cleric on Celica's team unless you drop Shade into her party.

Edited August 22, 2017 by epilepsyduck

[bethany81707]

17 minutes ago, epilepsyduck said:

Mathilda

Excellent/10. I love lady paladins, and I love powerhouse ladies, and Mathilda provides both in one package. She was easily my top Gold Knight when all was said and done (not like her competition was much to look at anyway), and I even Villager Forked her and looped her back to Gold Knight so she'd have an easier time handling Thabes. An effectively 120 Level Mathilda with the Rhompaia is a beautiful thing to see. I gotta say, though, the narrative's treatment of her is utterly lame. She deserves far better than to be an accessory to her boring husband, and in fact I'd argue she deserved to take his story role entirely. But that's just IntSys and their perennial sexism I guess.

...You mean switch Mathilda and Clive completely? Making Clive the captured one and Mathilda the leader trying to tie the Deliverance together?

Well, first of all, that explains how Desaix managed the capture job at all.

Honestly, I like the idea... but I think Mathilda's too good not to be the captive. Not because she's a girl, but because Clive's capture just wouldn't have the same impact- Mathilda would stomp out Desaix without Mycen's help, and Clive's capture wouldn't really as big of a morale crash except maybe to Fernand and Clair.

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, epilepsyduck said:

 At least she's got a cute design, and she's a pretty decent Cleric with a good spell list, even if her HP pool gets taxed from being the only Cleric on Celica's team unless you drop Shade into her party.

I mean, Celica does learn Recover at like Lv.6 (or is it 9?). Either way, once Celica learns Recover, which is decently early, Genny's HP gets easier to manage.

[Ertrick36]

4 hours ago, epilepsyduck said:

And sure, people say the DLC added more to him, but when you need to add paid content to make a character less unbearable, you've already got a problem.

I'm glad someone said this.  You don't use DLC to fix your problems; you use it to expand upon what is good in your game or to introduce new elements.  Otherwise, it's as good as making people pay for a bug fix.

Also, there'll be a lot of people who never get to experience the DLC (especially since the PR behind it really dug under a lot of people's nails), so many won't even get to experience this "new and improved" Fernand.

3 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Honestly, I like the idea... but I think Mathilda's too good not to be the captive. Not because she's a girl, but because Clive's capture just wouldn't have the same impact- Mathilda would stomp out Desaix without Mycen's help, and Clive's capture wouldn't really as big of a morale crash except maybe to Fernand and Clair.

And Mathilda herself.

There are plenty of ways they could've worked Clive being the captive into an impactful situation.  You're viewing it with a restrictive lens; writers have a massive amount of freedom when it comes to how they write stories.  Do the writers at IS every utilize that well?  Not really.  But it's no excuse, either.  A good writer ought to make a man's dire situation carry just as much weight as that of a woman's and vice versa, regardless of how capable either are.  Or they could do something else entirely to give weight and emotion to the story; it doesn't have to even be a capture.

Plus, I think Mathilda would be just as paralyzed by the situation as Clive was, since we're talking about her lover being held captive with the enemy ready to bring the axe down at any moment.  And in spite of her being a bad ass, she probably would be in a similar situation looking far and wide for capable warriors because even with the best leaders, armies can still fail, especially if they select their troops based on arbitrary qualities such as what family they were born into instead of actual merit.  So even if she was inclined to march on Desaix's doorstep, she probably would fail because she didn't have enough capable soldiers to properly challenge the Zofian and Rigelian knights protecting the Chancellor, while the forces that Alm joins with the Deliverance seem to be just enough to tip the scales in their favor, thus making a rescue much more feasible.

I think the only reason they did it this way was to stay true to the original.

 

[HylianBelmont]

Mathilda - She has great voice acting, and a pretty cool character I suppose. But I do share everyone else's sentiment that her ending is just weird. 

Genny - She seems likable on a surface level I suppose? I mean I recruited Deen so I never saw her supports with Sonya admittedly XD. But yeah she's a pretty useful healer too.

Fernand - Honestly? He's my second favourite villain in the game! (and I'm saying this as someone who hasn't even seen the DLC) because his motivations for being one are pretty believable IMO. And his voice acting is perfect too "As if the word of a backwater noble carries weight with me."

And his eventual fate (along with the memory prism) did make me tear up admittedly. So yeah, overall I quite like the man! He's my third favourite "3DS FE villain" really... And is definitely a lot better than Berkut if I'm being honest.

Edited August 22, 2017 by HylianBelmont

[epilepsyduck]

I didn't mean I wanted Clive and Mathilda to swap roles so much as I meant I wanted Mathilda to have story importance, and I wouldn't exactly be heartbroken if that came at the expense of Clive's. At the very least I'd like her to keep appearing in cutscenes after her rescue and maybe support someone who isn't Clive without me having to buy DLC.

In my dream version of Echoes Clive would not exist at all, Mathilda would be sitting in his seat as head of the Deliverance, and she wouldn't come across as such a wishy-washy mediocre waste of space like her hubby does. But my dream version of Echoes would look pretty different from the finished product overall lol.

[vanguard333]

Mathilda: Excellent Unit and interesting character. I liked her supports with Clive and Clair. While I found her epilogue weird at first, there are actually a number of reasons why she would become a housewife; especially since we're not told when. One of them would be that she had her fill of fighting and decided to retire. Another could be that she figured one of them should stay home with the kids and didn't want Clive to have to do that. Who knows? They could have written it a lot better, but there are decent reasons why she would've done so; they just didn't bother to give any.

Genny: Interesting character, and they gave her a clear personality. She was also a really good healer. Her support with Sonya was great, but she probably should've had more supports than that.

Fernand: I have been waiting for this since I stated my opinion of Berkut. I found his character actually quite interesting. The reason for his bigotry is very clear. It isn't executed very well when he leaves the Deliverance, but, in my opinion, all his scenes other than that were great. He doesn't immediately switch sides; he gets captured and is brought before Berkut: a man who seems to share if not epitomize Fernand's views.

10 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

And his behavior isn't even consistent. If promoting a commoner is such a crime that he's willing to defect why doesn't he ditch Rigel too for promoting a nobody like Zeke to a general?

Actually I would argue that his behaviour is very consistent. One important thing to note is that, while he defects to Rigel, he isn't actually loyal to Rigel: he's loyal to Berkut, and how he becomes loyal to Berkut is very well done in my opinion. When he gets captured, it's clear he still doesn't like Desaix or Rigel, but then he's brought to Berkut. The first thing he sees of Berkut is Berkut dancing happily with Rinea, and it is clear from Fernand's reaction that Berkut's not what he expected; something further made clear when Berkut seems to share Fernand's views.

Berkut: Hmph. What nonsense. One is born either noble or common. This destiny cannot be changed. Has a sheep any hope of leading wolves? No!

Fernand: *gasp* Yes! Yes, exactly! Truer words were never spoken, Lord Berkut!

To Fernand, Berkut becomes the personification of his values, and so he becomes unquestionably loyal to Berkut; failing to see Berkut's flaws and failings, mainly because he's not there to see them; only seeing Berkut in battle or overlooking the battlefield.

And, of course, just as Fernand walking in on Berkut dancing with Rinea was Fernand's first indicator about Berkut that brought about Fernand's loyalty to Berkut, his last scene with Berkut was him walking in on Berkut sacrificing Rinea to Duma was the moment he realized his error. Rinea was supposed to personify or at least illustrate Berkut's good side, and Fernand sees Berkut no longer happy with Rinea and instead sacrificing her to Duma for power.In that moment, he sees that Berkut was not what Fernand thought he was.

Fernand ends up mortally wounded and running away while offscreen. People have said his remorse for past actions when found doesn't make a lot of sense. One thing to consider is that he's become disillusioned with Berkut; realizing he made a terrible mistake. Him running through the tunnels while wounded would certainly make him ask himself, "Where did I go wrong?" We don't see it, but it's certainly implied. He was dying because of a mistake he made. It wasn't a moment of redemption equals death; it was a moment of, "What have I done?" So I found his remorse completely believable and in-character.

Honestly, I think the scene where he abandons the Deliverance could have been a lot better. But, other than that, I thought his character was really well done. Like Berkut, I don't think we were ever supposed to have sympathy for the character; we were only supposed to understand. And, in that regard, they did a really good job. He was an interesting character, and the rise of the deliverance DLC really added to the tragedy in his character. I liked his character as a villain and a tragedy of blind loyalty and blaming the many for the crimes of a few, among other things.

EDIT: Also, as with Rinea forgiving Berkut, what's wrong with people forgiving a dying person who shows true remorse for his actions. Am I the only one who would forgive the guy; even if only to let the guy die in peace?

Edited August 22, 2017 by vanguard333

[Medeus]

Fernand: He's quite a mess honestly. The Rise of Deliverance Chapters and Memory Prisms are pretty good to him as he has some good interactions with Clive, Clair, and Mathilda, shows himself to be a capable soldier, and even shows how loyal he is to his friends and country. The only issue I have for him is his sexism, which I guess could've been more directed at Clair in particular since he has no voiced issues with Mathilda, but it's still not a very likeable trait (though at least Clair gives him crap in response).

Then we get to the main story and everything falls apart for him. Those good interactions that kept his character afloat in the backstory? That's all gone, replaced by a jerk who lashes out at anyone who disagrees with him or doesn't fit his world view. A capable soldier? Similar to Berkut, he gets no time to shine in the main story and Alm and friends kick him around like a soccer ball during primetime. His loyality? Thrown away for one of the most baffling reasons as he just leaves and joins Rigel because Alm became leader and I guess having a commoner as leader means that that betrayal of everything you've known and cared about is a perfectly acceptable reaction. I don't mind the idea of him having problems with Alm being leader (hell, many players do since at that point he barely has proved himself), but they way they go about it destroys any sympathy you can have for the character since he doesn't react to the situation in a reasonable way and tosses aside all that would make him understandable by abandoning his supposed friends and country for the country attacking them. So at the end of it all, you have a character who's heavily dislikeable in the main game and only saving grace is mostly locked behind paywalls, and as a result the character I'm left with is one that I don't enjoy nor feel anything for when he meets his end. He could've been a lot better, but the handling behind him just left little worth caring about.

Mathilda: I like her, she has a great voice actress, she has some good moments showcasing her traits as one of the Deliverance leaders (mostly in the Rise of Deliverance chapters) and as a sister figure to Clair, and I love using her as a unit. However, I will also agree with everyone else that I don't get her epilogue as her character implies she's most at home on the battlefield, so it makes little sense she'd dump all of that just to be a housewife.

Genny: She's very cute, and I do like her support with Sonya and the last Base Convo she has, but unfortunately she doesn't have too much else to her. She's one of the cases where having less supports had a negative effect as she could've used some more expansion through interacting with the others to see what her thoughts on the journey or living in the priory was like.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Medeus

[Seazas]

13 hours ago, epilepsyduck said:

Fernand

BLEH. Unlike Berkbitch who at least had a second or two where he seemed possibly interesting, Ferny burned that bridge basically immediately. He was an entitled douche from moment one, and never came across as sympathetically as the game apparently expected him to. That he gets namedropped of all people in the final chapter but Rinea doesn't is peak bullshit, because Fernand actively earned and deserved what eventually befell him. And sure, people say the DLC added more to him, but when you need to add paid content to make a character less unbearable, you've already got a problem.

Mathilda

Excellent/10. I love lady paladins, and I love powerhouse ladies, and Mathilda provides both in one package. She was easily my top Gold Knight when all was said and done (not like her competition was much to look at anyway), and I even Villager Forked her and looped her back to Gold Knight so she'd have an easier time handling Thabes. An effectively 120 Level Mathilda with the Rhompaia is a beautiful thing to see. I gotta say, though, the narrative's treatment of her is utterly lame. She deserves far better than to be an accessory to her boring husband, and in fact I'd argue she deserved to take his story role entirely. But that's just IntSys and their perennial sexism I guess.

Genny

Really, really deserved better. She's one of Celica's friends, setting out with her on her adventure from the very start, so she really deserved to have supports with someone other than an optional character (no matter how fantastic that optional character is). It's all part of how Echoes diminishes anyone who respects Celica in favor of just filling her party with dudes who treat her like ass tbh. At least she's got a cute design, and she's a pretty decent Cleric with a good spell list, even if her HP pool gets taxed from being the only Cleric on Celica's team unless you drop Shade into her party.

What are they supposed to do!? Break the entire main narrative in a desperate attempt to try to make him look good. That's not how it works. 

[epilepsyduck]

1 hour ago, Peaceful_User said:

What are they supposed to do!? Break the entire main narrative in a desperate attempt to try to make him look good. That's not how it works. 

I'm not sure what this in reference to. If you mean the Fern man, my main issue with the dude is entirely with the framing of his behavior and not necessarily that he's such a douche to start with.

[Erureido]

Day 10 is now over, and with that, we are now onto Day 11!

Today's characters that we will discuss are Zeke, Saber, and Desaix.

What is your opinion on these three characters?

I will give my thoughts on them later.

[bethany81707]

Ezekiel: Solid, but not particularly standout. That's on the battlefield and off it. I liked his amnesiac arc, but amongst the rest of the cast, it's mostly just... there.

Saber: I don't like him much. Just... he's not really that intriguing to me. Doesn't help that his Support isn't exactly easy to come by.

Desaix: Fairly generic for what he is, and not really memorable in comparison to Slayde.

[Moblin Major General]

Camus: He's himself. He's as broken as he was challenging in Shadow Dragon, and we now know where he got his mask for Sirius.

Saber: probably one of the better Ogma clones, not to mention probably the best out of all of the mercs you get in Celica's route. Too bad Celica pulls an Obi-Wan and repos the Dagger (I bet he wanted to smash Beloved Zofia since the day it was forged).

Desaix: Everything about him screams cowardice. He doesn't even have the balls to do any of his dirty work, and he skipped town as soon as he caught wind of the Deliverance visiting Ram Village, leaving a dead wringer of a body double with an impossibly-sized shield behind him while he schmoozes Rigel, only for that to finally bite him in the ass when Act 3 rolls around. He would really bring the hate if he wasn't so incompetent.

[Zangetsu]

Edit: Damn it, missed the deadline again!

 

Mathilda:

I like her very much. She's very well design & her support with Clive is pretty cute. One of the few love that was executed alright. Caitlin Glass does a great job voicing the warrior maiden. Still think her ending is whack though.

 

Genny:

I really enjoy this character. While I'm incredibly disappointed on her lack of support, I still think she had a very good support with Sonya. I think it's very impressive that I could still remember her throughout the entire time I played the game. Granted that's more because she's very helpful unit. Finally her fanfic tendency is also very endearing.  Totally didn't have her hook up with Sonya. I said it so it must be canon.

22 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Franz Fernand

  Reveal hidden contents

Didn't I use this joke already?

I might make some of the same points I have before.  Also, I have no good reason to be this passionately disappointed about him... that's just the way things is.

So Fernand is a huge waste of effort.  I think one of the purposes for his inclusion was to further elaborate and exaggerate the themes of classism that are quite prevalent throughout the story.  The best method for this, in my opinion, is to make a character who is "naturally" bigoted (which is sort of what Maribelle or Clair are, but not quite) or one who has good reasoning for his bigotry, and one who is also sympathetic.  Fernand is none of those.

First of all, his classism isn't natural; it sprung into existence when some angery villagers killed "muh family".  So it does have emotional value at least, but it definitely wasn't naturally occurring.  What I mean by "naturally occurring" isn't that he was born with it, mind you.  I mean that he'd have been raised to believe that his station would imply superiority.  There's no indication that he felt this way before the incident with the villagers, and given that his friends are so open-minded, I highly doubt it's the case.

Fernand's reasoning for his classism is irrational.  With a character like Oboro, you could "get" her bigotry because the country is literally run by cutthroats and mad men who want nothing more than to bring chaos and destruction to the world, and the land of Nohr is stricken with great strife all around.  Soren also has a story for his prejudice that's made relevant.  But while Fernand's prejudice certainly has emotional value, it lacks intellectual value.  He never explains why he thinks Alm being a commoner means he shouldn't lead the Deliverance.  He could've talked about how commoners don't understand the weight that soldiers and nobility carry in their jobs sort of like how Celica did, he could've mentioned that common folk don't have the knowledge or experience to effectively carry out a war, or he even could have used his past with commoners to explain why it would be bad to give them the authority to wage wars.

But what does he do instead?  He just screams about "baseborn curs" and tradition.  When Clive announces that Alm would be the leader of the Deliverance, Fernand just threw a fit while pretty much everyone else explained why he was wrong for discriminating against Alm.  In this way, not only is there no actual challenge to Alm's rise to power, but the impact of the classist conflict is stifled terribly.  You could completely change his prejudice to anything else - Alm being of a certain race, gender, blood type, age, height, or how long he lasts in bed - and nothing would be changed.  It just becomes a generic struggle against prejudice, which makes it lose a ton of weight.  I like it when stories explore the perspectives of those with ill thoughts, but they don't do that for Fernand; he's just some bad guy that's supposed to turn good before he dies.

And as far as how sympathetic he gets...  That sorry scene of him being all apologetic in the end isn't winning any favors.  If someone insulted my friends and family, joined the army of the factions I directly oppose, and outright tried to kill me, and all they had to offer me was "sowwy", I would walk away and leave him to die alone like the sorry sack of shit he is.  And that base convo doesn't do much, either.  Sure, he's all buddy buddy with Clair and Clive, but he turns on them just because they decide that a lowborn fighter should be their new leader.  Yeah, real great friend you are, ain't ya?

And I know that's sort of how Darth Vader's story went - good at first, finds kinship and love, then betrays them all - but the difference is that Vader actually did something to redeem himself by saving his son from an evil emperor and, in the same stroke, effectively destroying the evil empire he worked so long for (only for his PoS edgy grandson to work with some freak so that he could ruin the Rebellion's work).  Fernand, at most, just reveals some plot elements that either were already revealed or would get revealed eventually.

Fuck Fernand.

 

Jesus Christ, I don't think I can honestly say any more that you haven't already said. Bravo good sir. So I'll just say this.

His DLC certainly help his character but I still bring myself to like the guy. From what I've seen he's just a guy who needs to lash out onto the world from being screwed over. That being said there's only so much a tragic background is supposed help you. Fernand is a dick & his entire character is unintentionally unsympathetic. I mean God almighty this game tries make you cry for the guy but failed so miserably. I hate how Alm keeps turning the other cheek for this guy.

 

His death was also incredibly forced & his last words did nothing for me to feel sorry for him. Clearly it was supposed a sad scene with Clive & Clair crying over his death (cuz hey Mathilda's reaction isn't remotely important to the guy.) but I couldn't care less.

I honestly think that not only is Fernand the most overrated villain in the series but he's the most overrated character along with F-Corrin. I know some of you will say that's an exaggeration but when youtuber critics like Mamodxx never stop praising him & never even remotely lives up to hype. So in other words FE purist.

I can't remember but can anyone confirm if he had a beef with Forysth? I know he has one with Lukas & Python but I don't know about Forsyth. If Fernand did have trouble with Forysth than he's a lot more worse than I remember.

With that being said, I'm very shock that nearly everyone who responded to Fernand hate his guts. I mean I gave my 2 cents already but is he really that hated? Cuz, I'm seeing only one guy that likes him.

 

Ezekiel: He's cool for the most part, but his presence is disturbingly lacking. He's supposed to be Ruldolf's other right hand but he doesn't bring anything to story whatsoever.

I had no idea he was supposed to be Camus since he has different V.A. Which makes his presence only worse. For a guy that comes from another series, he doesn't really have any impact whatsoever. To make matters worse none of the Whitewing Sisters actually have a support with him. Christ, could there be any more wasted potential for the guy?

I thought his support with Tatania was cute & again one of the more convincing love story in the game. The memory prism certainly helps. However, he still has the most wasted potential out of all the cast including Berkut & Fernand.

After looking into more of his original background I feel sorry for Nyna. Poor girl :(

 

Saber: This is a fun guy so I like him, but I wouldn't go as far to say he's one of my favorite characters. I do like his merc attitude but it doesn't look like it bouncing off anyone. His support with Jesse was fine but I feel like they could have better chemistry. That being said I'm still kinda disappointed on he was executed. I admire loyalty as much as the next guy, but the dude seriously should question more as the story goes. As a merc he takes things with way too much stride & he even when does question what's going on, he doesn't do anything about it. Because of that he doesn't really convince he's a merc. He solid unit, but I didn't really use him unless I was trying to promote him.

 

Desaix: Hey guys, did u know this guy is a villain because I sure didn't. Thank goodness this game keeps reminding me that Desaix is a villain. Sarcasm aside, he does a serviceable job with being the final arc 1 boss, but clearly he's not one of the villain that the purist keep praising on about.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Zangetsu

[epilepsyduck]

Zeke

He's an okay dude, overall. For combat, Mathilda ended up outstripping him, but he was hardly useless and he did okay with the Duma Lance once Clair stole his true weapon. I don't really have a strong opinion on this guy I guess. He comes a little too late for me to have much of an opinion, and unlike Tatiana he didn't fill a niche I didn't already have to help him stand out.

Saber

Part 1 of 4 of Tiddy Emblem, so he was off to a good start. Certainly, he's a useful unit, as all the Mercs are, though for me he was the weakest of the bunch come Part 4. I also think he's just plain hot, which earns him a couple extra points. His occasionally condescending attitude towards Celica annoys me into not really liking him outside of his attractive design, though. Said attitude isn't necessarily a problem in and of itself (I'd argue it makes some degree of sense in-character, and he still has enough respect for Celica to follow her without slapping her around), but it's part of a pattern in the game's treatment of her and it irritates me. Still, hardly a least favorite of mine, and his voice is pretty cool.

Desaix

Meh. He's not exactly compelling and maybe a little too mustache-twirling, but he doesn't really bother me. At the very least, the game is well aware of what a creep he is. He kinda sucks but he's ultimately inoffensive in my eyes.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Zeke: What I like most about Zeke doesn't really have much to do with what he does in Echoes...it has more to do with how it effects his character in Marth's games, and how it effects Nyna. His (and by extension, Nyna's and Tatiana's) arc is great, it's one of those personal parts of the story that actually has some emotional weight. As for how he is in Echoes specifically...yeah, he's fine. His design is fine, and as a unit he's fine, although not as good as Mathilda.

Saber: Saber ended up being one of my favorite characters in the game! I liked his continued presence throughout the story, his chemistry with Ceilca was great and I enjoyed all of his supports. He was also one of my best units, and the main unit I used on Celica's route aside from Celica herself. His design is pretty cool too.

Desaix: He served his purpose and played the role of villain well. Throughout the story you could tell he was despicable, and the memory prism proved that further and gave you even more incentive to want to take him down!