Charlottesville Protests

[blah the Prussian]

40 minutes ago, epilepsyduck said:

It wasn't directed towards Comrade, and I'll be honest and say what I wrote was more confrontational than it should've been. But I've seen a lot of people who seem pretty desperate for this to be some "both sides" issue and I can't for the life of me figure out why when it seems pretty clear that these fringe-right Neo-Nazis are the villain of the piece.

I have to say, though, it isn't centrists who are saying that the violence is both side's fault. You have center right folks like Romney saying that the fault is clearly with the White Supremacists, for example. Its only the far right that is seriously pushing the far left as equally at fault as the far ight.

[Life]

1 hour ago, epilepsyduck said:

You need to actually have a brain to have fucking thoughts, sweetheart. No one with a functioning brain could write all that meandering garbage and think it sounds good.

Every single one of you who's twisting yourselves into pretzels to go "b-but the LEFT is also BAD and it's THEIR fault!" needs to grow a fucking spine. For once in your lives, get out of your centrist mindset and actually fight something that's completely disgusting and wrong instead of crying that people dare stand for something while you're busy bitching from the back.

Attack of my character is unnecessary.

 

I haven't mentioned fault or blame. I'm simply pointing out that this sequence of events was obvious to anyone outside of the ideologies involved.

 

Let me sum it all up for you in a nice little analogy.

 

Me: I hate sweet things. As a result, I hate both cake and pie.

You: How dare you equate both cake and pie when cake is the only bad thing here!

Me: You've missed the point. Never mind that you might be wrong.

 

I'm not equating blame. I'm simply pointing out that this was obviously going to happen. If you spend years trying to shame people for being born white, don't be surprised when they decide to band together with white identitarians and get sucked into another awful ideology.

 

Also, this is your mess, not mine. I am not going to fight on the side of radical leftists because I dislike them just as much as I dislike Nazis. Don't tell me to pick a side because I hate both sides.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Comrade

[blah the Prussian]

I'm not going to fight on the side of radical leftists because I think extralegal action against extremism like this will do more harm than good. What is needed is stricter government opposition to White Supremacy, but until then I fear the general breakdown of rule of law much more than I fear Nazis, and vigilante actions will only worsen that situation. 

[Life]

5 minutes ago, blah the Prussian said:

I'm not going to fight on the side of radical leftists because I think extralegal action against extremism like this will do more harm than good. What is needed is stricter government opposition to White Supremacy, but until then I fear the general breakdown of rule of law much more than I fear Nazis, and vigilante actions will only worsen that situation. 

For the most part, I agree with this. Might differ on the finer points but this is my general opinion on where I go from this point forward.

[blah the Prussian]

7 hours ago, Comrade said:

For the most part, I agree with this. Might differ on the finer points but this is my general opinion on where I go from this point forward.

I want to make clear that I do think there is plenty of non violent(unless in self defense, in which case understandable) opposition to the White Nationalists, and a lot of it was present at Charlottesville. If it ever occurs that Antifa is the main opposition to Nazis then the problem will be that not enough people are opposing Nazis non violently, but I don't think that's the case.

[The DanMan]

I'm honestly just shocked that the police weren't out there breaking things up ASAP. Considering how charged things have been down there over the statue removals, you'd think they'd have some officers on standby/in the area in case of something like this.

[Shoblongoo]

8 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

I have to say, though, it isn't centrists who are saying that the violence is both side's fault. You have center right folks like Romney saying that the fault is clearly with the White Supremacists, for example. Its only the far right that is seriously pushing the far left as equally at fault as the far ight.

...Its pretty much everyone except Trump, the paid spokesmen who would Defend Trump if he took a dump on their desk, and the Nazis and Klansmen themselves saying it. He's drawing universal condemnation from all sides. (FOX News could not get a single elected Republican on television to defend the president's remarks. And not for lack of trying.)

Trump's White House aids put out a statement immediately after the Press Conference essentially saying: "This is all him. We didn't sign off on any this."

His own generals at the Joint Chiefs of Staff are condemning him.

Republicans in Congress are condemning him.

His entire economic advisory board of private CEOs has now disbanded in protest, and is condemning him.

Now why for Trump in particular this is such a damning indication of where his true heart lays--because lets be honest here--this is not a man who is known for pulling punches or showing a restrained hand or playing the "...well lets not be unfair...there's two sides here..." game.

When he is genuinely bothered by something, he will immediately and in the most crude and visceral manner go-for-throat. And we've seen this time and again with everything from his attacks on journalists to judges to political rivals. We saw it at that disgusting press conference he gave, where the second he's taken to task by reporters he goes after them and starts in with these, zealous, gut-level, reflexive attacks on "fake news." That's the instinctive swiftness and unequivocal surety you use to fucking condemn Nazis.

The New York Times. CNN. The Washington Post. POLITICO. John McCain. Susan Collins. Rosie O'Donnell. New York Federal District Court. Arnold Schwarzenegger. Joe Scarborough. Angela Merkel. NATO. The Government of Mexico. Meghan Kelly. The State of New Hampshire. Sadiq Khan. The Federal Bureau of Investigation. Mika Brzenzinski. 

These are things Trump has an easier time going after then fucking Nazis.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[Res]

7 hours ago, Comrade said:

If you spend years trying to shame people for being born white, don't be surprised when they decide to band together with white identitarians and get sucked into another awful ideology.

Oh, so white people are not capable of withstanding a few harsh words? It's understandable that white people react to 'fuck white people' by espousing genocide and Nazi ideals? 

Somehow the vast majority of white people haven't felt shamed or decided to up-sticks and run off to join the Nazis; and this sounds an awful lot like victim-blaming. 

"We're not saying we're non-violent, we'll fucking kill these people if we have to. The fact that nobody on our side died, I'd go ahead and call that points for us. The fact that none of our people killed anyone unjustly, I think, is a plus for us."

Theresa May failed to condemn Trump's words; not a surprise, still disappointing. Nicola Sturgeon's words, on the other hand, were spot on.

 

[Shoblongoo]

Don't even go down that road.  You ever wonder what you would have done during slavery, segregation, or the Holocaust? This is it. You're doing it right now.

There is no justification or excuse for White Supremacy. You see it--you condemn it. Period.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[Lord Raven]

it's amazing that a Jew is trying to tell us that "maybe you shouldn't teach people about racism or call them racist if you don't want supremacists"

its like calling a white dude a racist or privileged is about as much of a slur as the n bomb or the k bomb or the p bomb

[Shoblongoo]

1 minute ago, Lord Raven said:

it's amazing that a Jew is trying to tell us that "maybe you shouldn't teach people about racism or call them racist if you don't want supremacists"

its like calling a white dude a racist or privileged is about as much of a slur as the n bomb or the k bomb or the p bomb

There is such a thing as a "double-negative." In both mathematics and language arts--it is a very basic concept.

Intolerance of intolerance is not intolerance. I don't understand why this is hard.

[Life]

2 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

it's amazing that a Jew is trying to tell us that "maybe you shouldn't teach people about racism or call them racist if you don't want supremacists"

its like calling a white dude a racist or privileged is about as much of a slur as the n bomb or the k bomb or the p bomb

It's emotionally draining when it's done over and over for years. Especially when the mere accusation is generally enough to turn someone into a social outcast in the best case scenario.

I have a quick question. Is this acceptable?

I find that to be also unacceptable. I'm not going to take sides when both ideologies are cancer and I certainly won't apologize for either of them.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Comrade

[Lord Raven]

I don't know when that accusation turns one into a social outcast, people were probably already social outcasts before joining the far-right

thats kind of how being an outcast works; you latch onto the first thing that will affirm your identity

at any rate, "both ideologies" is a misnomer, what's the other ideology you're referring to that's even relevant to Charlottesville? Like... anyone that opposes nazis that came to counter protest?

[Life]

1 minute ago, Lord Raven said:

I don't know when that accusation turns one into a social outcast, people were probably already social outcasts before joining the far-right

thats kind of how being an outcast works; you latch onto the first thing that will affirm your identity

at any rate, "both ideologies" is a misnomer, what's the other ideology you're referring to that's even relevant to Charlottesville? Like... anyone that opposes nazis that came to counter protest?

Yeah, the far left anarcho-communists known as Antifa who have spent the last 18 months rioting and destroying property in Berkeley, Washington DC, Seattle... Ring a bell?

 

Also, your comment above really irked me and I just figured out why.

 

"As a Jew..." - Don't you ever say this sentence to me again. How dare you for assuming that I should think a certain way simply because I'm a Jew. That is entirely insulting because you've essentially accused me of being a thought-traitor to my "group".

[Shoblongoo]

33 minutes ago, Comrade said:

It's emotionally draining when it's done over and over for years. Especially when the mere accusation is generally enough to turn someone into a social outcast in the best case scenario.

I'm very happy we live in a society where outing a racist as a racist turns said racist into a social outcast. That's a sign of progress. Here's the problem, as I see it. Its the-boy-who-cried-wolf scenario.

If you overuse the charge of racism in situations that do not call for it, you are blunting the impact of the charge. You are turning it into something expected. Unremarkable. A casual insult for things you don't like to be generally disregarded as hyperbole and sensationalism.

And then you can't properly ostracize a bone-fide, swastika waving racist as a "racist." Because the word has lost all meaning. You call a White Supremacist a racist and the White Supremacist says something to the effect of: There you intolerant libtards go again--trying to lable everyone on the right a "racist." I'm not a racist. I'm proud to be White. There ain't nothing racist about being proud to be White.

Its only in the moral ambiguity created by overuse of the charge as a blanket accusation against--say; everyone who doesn't share your views on immigration or criminal justice reform--that a White Nationalist can say that with any fucking semblance of a receptive audience.

But that seems to be where we're at right now.

Good god man. We're in trouble as a country if we're at a place where we can't uniformly identify Nazis, KKK, and Confederates as deservedly rebuked piece-of-shit racists; separate-and-distinguishable from their opposition as such.  
     

Edited August 17, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[Lord Raven]

26 minutes ago, Comrade said:

"As a Jew..." - Don't you ever say this sentence to me again. How dare you for assuming that I should think a certain way simply because I'm a Jew. That is entirely insulting because you've essentially accused me of being a thought-traitor to my "group".

lol a jew lecturing me on white supremacy saying "the other side is just as bad" is really really strange, it's an observation

white supremacists hate you more than any anti-fa or leftist ever could, and that's simply due to your heritage (and in other people's cases, the color of their skin) and you hate people whose movement is based on tolerance?

don't you ever tell me what not to say though! but if you want, you can take offense :)

26 minutes ago, Comrade said:

Yeah, the far left anarcho-communists known as Antifa who have spent the last 18 months rioting and destroying property in Berkeley, Washington DC, Seattle... Ring a bell?

oh but did they kill anyone

did they spend the whole 18 months doing it

do they have a clear goal? because anarcho-communism (what the fuck is that) most likely does not represent all of anti-fa or even a fraction. anti-fa is literally against fascism and is a very broad movement and idea that is not inherently based in violence

at any rate do you think their movement is invalid even though trump himself has a fascist in his ear and has authoritarian tendencies?

you're trying to play the white moderate here, by calling the side against bigotry just as bad as the highly bigoted side, despite the death toll being lopsided

Edited August 17, 2017 by Lord Raven

[peener weener]

14 hours ago, Comrade said:

- All collectivists (not just the far-right) need to take a free helicopter ride.

are you really, sincerely, actually pulling this shit in a thread about a rally where a woman was ran over by a rightwing extremist for being ostensibly leftist?

i know you don't have shame, because you keep posting, but have some fucking decency.

[Shoblongoo]

10 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

lol a jew lecturing me on white supremacy saying "the other side is just as bad" is really really strange, it's an observation

As a fellow Hebrew, I second that.

Also absolutely hilarious that he bristles at this and reads into this that you're making some derogatory statement immediately after he's just finished telling us how much he hates the overuse of crying "racism!"

...like...thats exactly the problem...

People get over-sensitive about stupid things. And are then morally numb when we're talking about Nazis. 

Like--for real, Comrade? You're looking at someone to dump out on for Jew-hating. And you can't bring yourself to call out the guys with torches and Seig Heils, but you're gonna bitch out Raven???

...come on dude...

Edited August 17, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[Res]

If a white person is tired of being called a racist maybe they could stop being racist?!

It's actually really not hard.

[Moblin Major General]

3 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

 I'm proud to be White. There ain't nothing racist about being proud to be White.

Suffice it to say, it might be racist to be proud of being white, but doesn't it also feel discriminatory when you get grouped with the bigots, racists, jingoists, and xenophobes just by virtue of your skin color? Being judged as being the same as those is just as racist as the stereotypes against any other group, and is even worse because you can't call attention to discrimination like that other than by legal means (which is pointless unless something hateful has occurred)  without being accused of the same. Granted, a situation like this is purely theoretical, all things considered, but it doesn't invalidate the underlying concern, however unlikely.

P.S.- This isn't a devil's advocate argument, nor is it an attempt to justify the actions or views of the National Socialist movement. I do not support, in fact I vehemently oppose Nazis in all their forms. This is an attempt to introduce an argument that wouldn't be discussed in real life for fear of repercussion based on the seemingly inherent principle of the question. Don't mistake a concern for the theoretical as being truth, as it most definitely isn't in 95% of jobs and professions, if not 99%. I only feel vulnerable because of anxiety, but I'm mostly Irish/Dutch on my dad's side and German Jew on my mother's, so me having mixed ancestry and not having a generic English surname certainly help me feel better that less of my ancestors were part of the problem, and that some of them even got in on the hate.

[Jotari]

We're arguing on the internet here using false name and avatars. Wether someone is jewish, black, white or from mars is an irrelevant factor outside of what their own experience can bring to the table. Let's keep things apersonal.

[DarkDestr0yer61]

1 hour ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Suffice it to say, it might be racist to be proud of being white, but doesn't it also feel discriminatory when you get grouped with the bigots, racists, jingoists, and xenophobes just by virtue of your skin color? Being judged as being the same as those is just as racist as the stereotypes against any other group, and is even worse because you can't call attention to discrimination like that other than by legal means (which is pointless unless something hateful has occurred)  without being accused of the same. Granted, a situation like this is purely theoretical, all things considered, but it doesn't invalidate the underlying concern, however unlikely.

But why would a white person get offended by being called racist if they are not racist?

"I hate how racist white people can be"

"Uhm. Excuse me. I am not racist"

Like.. if you're not one of them then obviously they aren't talking about you? At least that's the way I see it.

[blah the Prussian]

So okay, Antifa is actually mostly Anarcho-Communist or some form of Marxist, because Antifa, contrary to their name, DO NOT REPRESENT the totality of the anti Fascist movement. They do deserve to be opposed for their ideology, but at Charlottesville there were people much more worthy of being opposed, and their opposition was not entirely Antifa, not by a large margin. That's the fallacy Life is making; you don't need to support Antifa to oppose Fascism.

[Lord Raven]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

We're arguing on the internet here using false name and avatars. Wether someone is jewish, black, white or from mars is an irrelevant factor outside of what their own experience can bring to the table. Let's keep things apersonal.

we can still question why people believe things given their background...  it's not hard

[Life]

8 hours ago, fuccboi said:

are you really, sincerely, actually pulling this shit in a thread about a rally where a woman was ran over by a rightwing extremist for being ostensibly leftist?

i know you don't have shame, because you keep posting, but have some fucking decency.

That's a meme but it accurate represents my feelings about collectivists.

 

It seems to me that people who don't like what I say are frustrated that I'm simply not echoing the party line of "we must only condemn Nazis because clearly everyone else is pure-hearted and good". I reject that and condemn all genocidal ideologies.

 

If that means that I have no decency, sure. If anything, it would seem that I have more than you because I'm not apologizing for an ideology that is inherently murderous.