The most underrated Fire emblem game

[Armagon]

6 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:

I have to agree. I haven't played Thracia 776, but those, as well as heal staves missing, seem like bad game design, and incredibly annoying. Not to mention that a first timer wouldn't know these things.

Yeah, stuff like that is the reason why i gave up playing Thracia 776. It's one out of the three FE game i've played that i've never finished, the other two being Gaiden and FE11. But I dropped Gaiden because SoV was coming out and FE11, well, i just prefer Book 1 in FE3. But i dropped Thracia due to legitmate bullshit game design. A lot of people say it's better if you don't go in blind, but why shouldn't i be able to play the game blind? A game's more fun when you don't know what to expect.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Valkama said:

Ha. Permanent status ailments are not an issue. They can be cured and if you didn't bring a cure then that's on you. Losing units that fail to escape before Leif also isn't an issue. The game tells you units left behind will be lost in dialogue of the first escape map. In fact the escape mechanic and the existence of 21x opens the door for very interesting strategies and allows the player to sacrifice units without letting them die in order to get them back later. It's an ingenious work around to players natural desire to keep everyone alive.

Fatigue wasn't implemented very well but that is more because it's easy to avoid due to the abundance of S drinks rather than it causing issues for the player.

While the game has some questionable design choices, as a whole it's a very well designed game and a damn fun one at that.

It doesn't matter that they can be cured - it matters that they have the potential to cause unwinnable situations if Leif gets hit with any status other than poison. As for losing units that didn't escape before Leif, I still see it as BS game design, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Perhaps, but when the game is already massively flawed from a design standpoint, that's something that'd stand out.

Ha. From where I'm standing, "well-designed" and "fun" are two things that do NOT belong in a sentence talking about Thracia. At all.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Slumber]

7 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:

I have to agree. I haven't played Thracia 776, but those, as well as heal staves missing, seem like bad game design, and incredibly annoying. Not to mention that a first timer wouldn't know these things.

But like I said, I haven't played it, so I'll need to see it for myself.

It's one of those issues that becomes a lot easier to deal with when you realize that staves can also double, and the fact that most staff users in FE5 have amazing stats for that kind of stuff.

I agree that it's an issue that I'd like to have addressed if T776 ever gets a remake(Along with throne bonuses, no certain hits/certain misses, and the escape issue), but it's also an issue that's really not gamebreaking in any real capacity. It's more of an occasional annoyance than an ever-constant problem. In my many playthroughs of FE5, I can count the amount of times I've lost a unit, or had to reset because of a missed heal on one finger.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Slumber

[Flee Fleet!]

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

It's one out of the three FE game i've played that i've never finished, the other two being Gaiden and FE11

Wait, I thought you also never finished Genealogy? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

It's one of those issues that becomes a lot easier to deal with when you realize that staves can also double, and the fact that most staff users in FE5 have amazing stats for that kind of stuff.

I agree that it's an issue that I'd like to have addressed if T776 ever gets a remake(Along with throne bonuses, no certain hits/certain misses, and the escape issue), but it's also an issue that's really not gamebreaking in any real capacity. It's more of an occasional annoyance than an ever-constant problem. In my many playthroughs of FE5, I can count the amount of times I've lost a unit, or had to reset because of a missed heal on one finger.

Ah, so I guess heal staves missing is a more minor annoyance then. 

And yeah, I wasn't really thinking of it as gamebreaking, just something that would annoy you and get in the way of your plans/strategies.

[Armagon]

1 minute ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Wait, I thought you also never finished Genealogy? Correct me if I'm wrong

No, i finished Genealogy. I hated it. But then i was like "you know what, i wanna give this game another shot". But halfway through the prolouge, i was reminded at how abysmal FE4's gameplay is. I gave up on Ch.2 because backtracking. I think even if i did continue my second playthrough, i would've given up at Ch.7. i consider FE4 Ch.7 to be the worst map in the series.

Like, the story is fine, as are most of the characters and music, but FE4's gameplay just really ruins the game for me. I'm not even a "gameplay over story" person either.

[Valkama]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

It doesn't matter that they can be cured - it matters that they have the potential to cause unwinnable situations if Leif gets hit with any status other than poison. As for losing units that didn't escape before Leif, I still see it as BS game design, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Perhaps, but when the game is already massively flawed from a design standpoint, that's something that'd stand out.

Ha. From where I'm standing, "well-designed" and "fun" are two things that do NOT belong in a sentence talking about Thracia. At all.

I'm 99% certain staff users won't target Leif. The only time I've ever seen him get hit with a status is when I intentionally threw him in range of a blizzard user with no one else around to see if he could be put to sleep. While leaving him as the only unit on a map staff users simply refuse to target him and he only had 2 magic so they should have been able to. The game goes out of it's way to ensure what you claim to be a problem doesn't happen.

Enlighten me on how units not escaping with Leif being lost until late in the game is bad design even when the game tells you units left behind will be captured.

What is so "Massively Flawed" about the game. The more you speak the more I wonder if you've even played the game.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Quote

What is so "Massively Flawed" about the game. The more you speak the more I wonder if you've even played the game.

Iirc he told me in an other thread by asking him some time ago that he never tried to play FE5 because of the gameplay issues he stated.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Valkama said:

I'm 99% certain staff users won't target Leif. The only time I've ever seen him get hit with a status is when I intentionally threw him in range of a blizzard user with no one else around to see if he could be put to sleep. While leaving him as the only unit on a map staff users simply refuse to target him and he only had 2 magic so they should have been able to. The game goes out of it's way to ensure what you claim to be a problem doesn't happen.

Enlighten me on how units not escaping with Leif being lost until late in the game is bad design even when the game tells you units left behind will be captured.

What is so "Massively Flawed" about the game. The more you speak the more I wonder if you've even played the game.

...Hmpf.

Enlighten me on how the game telling me that I'll lose any units that don't escape before Leif makes it okay for the game to be designed like that. Oh, wait. You can't, because you can't - and won't - convince me it's anything other than BS game design, so just quit while you're behind.

For starters, healing staves being able to miss. That alone is an instant dealbreaker. Aside from that, and the other stuff I've mentioned, there's the map design, ESPECIALLY 24x, and some of the recruitments are either cryptic or an absolute pain in the ass *cough XAVIER hack*. I'm also turned off by fog of war (granted, it returned in later FE games, but those at least let you see the terrain), dismounting (Does your mounted unit not have a respectable sword rank? If the answer to this is "Yes", then they're nearly useless in indoor maps), and no guaranteed hits or misses.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Valkama]

5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

...Hmpf.

Enlighten me on how the game telling me that I'll lose any units that don't escape before Leif makes it okay for the game to be designed like that. Oh, wait. You can't, because you can't - and won't - convince me it's anything other than BS game design, so just quit while you're behind.

For starters, healing staves being able to miss. That alone is an instant dealbreaker. Aside from that, and the other stuff I've mentioned, there's the map design, ESPECIALLY 24x, and some of the recruitments are either cryptic or an absolute pain in the ass *cough XAVIER hack*. I'm also turned off by fog of war (granted, it returned in later FE games, but those at least let you see the terrain), dismounting (Does your mounted unit not have a respectable sword rank? If the answer to this is "Yes", then they're nearly useless in indoor maps), and no guaranteed hits or misses.

Yeah alright I'm tired of this. Clearly you just want to shit on a game you've never played to be cool and edgy.

Losing units that fail to escape before Leif turns the objective from just "Get Leif to the Throne" to "Get everyone you can to the exit" However the game gives you the freedom to opt out of a full completion of the chapter by sacrificing units. It's sorta like how any unit at any time can die in the game except less harsh because now you have the ability to save your units at a later chapter. If you think Escape is BS design for these reasons then literally enemies are BS design because enemies can kill your units.

Literally everything you complain about is minor issues. Oh no my heal staffs can miss, except the formula is 60 + 4xskl so it's actually a fairly rare occurrence and still gives your units staff rank. Oh no I'm forced to use swords in doors, oh wait the game gives me a sword called the elite sword which is stronger than the steel sword and usable at E rank. Oh no I have a chance of missing every attack except the game gives me enough +hit skills and supports to ensure I rarely see any hit rates below 90 anyways. I can nitpick games to and make them sound like shit. But I don't because nitpicks don't make a game shit. How about you actually play the game your shitting on before you make yourself look like an idiot.

Also everything else you complained about like hard recruitment, hard gaiden chapters, and fog of war are basically optional content(Fog of war I guess does appear in one main map but it goes away after 20 turns). If your feeble brain can't comprehend using strategy to solve unfavorable situations then you can just ignore this content.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Valkama

[Armagon]

8 hours ago, Valkama said:

Enlighten me on how units not escaping with Leif being lost until late in the game is bad design even when the game tells you units left behind will be captured.

I mean, the game can tell you something and still be bad game design. Although i'd rather say that this is flawed game design. Because on one hand, it makes sense, but on the other hand, it can punish you for leaving behind the wrong units. Escape was clearly done better in Fates.

[Valkama]

17 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I mean, the game can tell you something and still be bad game design. Although i'd rather say that this is flawed game design. Because on one hand, it makes sense, but on the other hand, it can punish you for leaving behind the wrong units. Escape was clearly done better in Fates.

I don't see how this system is worse than fates. Fates forces you to get everyone out or let them die while Thracia gives you an alternative of let them get captured so you can get them back later. It's pretty much Fates+ since it's giving you more options and more freedom to make strategic decisions rather than forcing one to simply get everyone out or lose them forever.

[Armagon]

1 minute ago, Valkama said:

I don't see how this system is worse than fates. Fates forces you to get everyone out or let them die while Thracia gives you an alternative of let them get captured so you can get them back later. It's pretty much Fates+ since it's giving you more options and more freedom to make strategic decisions rather than forcing one to simply get everyone out or lose them forever.

Last i checked, Fates made it so that if Corrin escapes, you win and there's no penalty for leaving anybody behind. The only time in Fates where everyone had to escape were Conquest Ch.15 (which is pretty easy because there's only three units) and whatever Conquest chapter the stairway was. But every other time with an Escape mission, only Corrin had to escape.

[Valkama]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

Last i checked, Fates made it so that if Corrin escapes, you win and there's no penalty for leaving anybody behind. The only time in Fates where everyone had to escape were Conquest Ch.15 (which is pretty easy because there's only three units) and whatever Conquest chapter the stairway was. But every other time with an Escape mission, only Corrin had to escape.

I assumed you were talking about the maps that force everyone to escape because otherwise it's just a rebranded Seize objective and not really comparable.

[Armagon]

36 minutes ago, Valkama said:

I assumed you were talking about the maps that force everyone to escape because otherwise it's just a rebranded Seize objective and not really comparable.

Different views i suppose. Because the maps i was talking about did say "Do this or escape within x amount of turns". Because escape is an option, i considered it an escape mission.

[eclipse]

Randomness can be good.  But if my heals randomly miss, that's bad.  Furthermore, it's hard, but possible, to make one of the last chapters unwinnable.  And this is why I refuse to play the game.

However, I don't consider Thracia to be underrated, even if I don't have a very high opinion of it.

[Emperor]

I find it funny how most people bitching about the fatigue system and permanent ailments list their favorite game as fates/never played the game. The game that removes any semblance of resource management. Ill admit missing heals sucks but if the healer has 10 skill, they wont miss and the game gives you scrolls that can fix that so it was a non issue. 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Emperor

[eclipse]

9 minutes ago, Emperor said:

I find it funny how most people bitching about the fatigue system and permanent ailments list their favorite game as fates/never played the game. The game that removes any semblance of resource management. Ill admit missing heals sucks but if the healer has 10 skill, they wont miss and the game gives you scrolls that can fix that so it was a non issue. 

I think having healing skills miss is a really dumb mechanic.  Dumb enough that I don't want to play the game.  Petty? Totally.  But my free time is at a premium, so I will be picky about what I spend it on.

[Emperor]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

I think having healing skills miss is a really dumb mechanic.  Dumb enough that I don't want to play the game.  Petty? Totally.  But my free time is at a premium, so I will be picky about what I spend it on.

Beyond petty since you are missing a legitimate great game and one of Kaga's last games. Great maps, good  story, great game play otherwise (kidnapping is the bomb). Just give a healer a skill ring or one of the scrolls and in the SAME CHAPTER it wont ever miss. Every one who has played the dam game can tell you the same thing, its not that big of a deal. 

[Valkama]

Defensive staves missing is a poor design choice admittedly and shouldn't be in the game. It was likely done to weaken offensive staves which previously had 100% hit rates guaranteed and probably just an oversight that they ended up applying the same formula to defensive staves. I do think complaints about it are fairly overblown, it's quite a rare occurrence on any staff user besides Tina and is usually just annoying rather than detrimental since the game gives you so many tools to plan around bad RNG. Warp/Rescue/Rewarp missing is super obnoxious though when doing an LTC.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Valkama

[eclipse]

4 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Beyond petty since you are missing a legitimate great game and one of Kaga's last games. Great maps, good  story, great game play otherwise (kidnapping is the bomb). Just give a healer a skill ring or one of the scrolls and in the SAME CHAPTER it wont ever miss. Every one who has played the dam game can tell you the same thing, its not that big of a deal. 

The day anyone dictates my free time will be the day they cook for me, three meals a day, every day (never mind everything else that needs to be done).  I'm busy, which means I WILL be picky.  And having my heal staves miss is a deal-breaker.

[Emperor]

8 minutes ago, Valkama said:

Defensive staves missing is a poor design choice admittedly and shouldn't be in the game. It was likely done to weaken offensive staves which previously had 100% hit rates guaranteed and probably just an oversight that they ended up applying the same formula to defensive staves. I do think complaints about it are fairly overblown, it's quite a rare occurrence on any staff user besides Tina and is usually just annoying rather than detrimental since the game gives you so many tools to plan around bad RNG. Warp/Rescue/Rewarp missing is super obnoxious though when doing an LTC.

It is and a remake removing it would be nice, but like I said its so easily fixed its a non issue like fatigue if you are not dumb. And everyone complaining about it has not played the game which is funny since everyone who has says its not a big deal at all. 

Tana being shit so late in the game is un excusable though. 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Emperor

[Armagon]

3 minutes ago, Emperor said:

legitimate great game and one of Kaga's last games.

Mmm, i don't know if i'd call Thracia a great game. It's one of the three Fire Emblem games i dropped, the other two being Gaiden and Shadow Dragon. I dropped Gaiden because SoV was announced and i dropped Shadow Dragon because the DS emulator i used at the time was really laggy. But i did play Book 1 of FE3, and i prefer that version of Shadow Dragon over the DS remake. But i dropped Thraica because i was fed up with it's bullshit.

There's just something about Jugdral games having good stories but terrible gameplay. FE4's gameplay is an abysmal and unbalanced mess and while FE5's gameplay is marginally better (hey, you can actually Trade), a lot of it's mechanics are pretty damn bullshit. Even if stuff like missable heals (supposedly) only happens rarely, the very fact that it exists is bullshit.

I'm glad Thracia was Kaga's last FE game. Because if Kaga was still on the team, i doubt i'd be playing Fire Emblem today. I have to give him points for FE3 though. I personally believe FE3 was Kaga's best FE.

Also

28 minutes ago, Emperor said:

I find it funny how most people bitching about the fatigue system and permanent ailments list their favorite game as fates/never played the game. The game that removes any semblance of resource management.

Buddy, have you played Conquest? Because that game is legitimately hard, even if you do manage your resources.

Also, this post does just come across as a generic "lol Fates sucks" post.

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, Valkama said:

Yeah alright I'm tired of this. Clearly you just want to shit on a game you've never played to be cool and edgy.

Losing units that fail to escape before Leif turns the objective from just "Get Leif to the Throne" to "Get everyone you can to the exit" However the game gives you the freedom to opt out of a full completion of the chapter by sacrificing units. It's sorta like how any unit at any time can die in the game except less harsh because now you have the ability to save your units at a later chapter. If you think Escape is BS design for these reasons then literally enemies are BS design because enemies can kill your units.

Literally everything you complain about is minor issues. Oh no my heal staffs can miss, except the formula is 60 + 4xskl so it's actually a fairly rare occurrence and still gives your units staff rank. Oh no I'm forced to use swords in doors, oh wait the game gives me a sword called the elite sword which is stronger than the steel sword and usable at E rank. Oh no I have a chance of missing every attack except the game gives me enough +hit skills and supports to ensure I rarely see any hit rates below 90 anyways. I can nitpick games to and make them sound like shit. But I don't because nitpicks don't make a game shit. How about you actually play the game your shitting on before you make yourself look like an idiot.

Also everything else you complained about like hard recruitment, hard gaiden chapters, and fog of war are basically optional content(Fog of war I guess does appear in one main map but it goes away after 20 turns). If your feeble brain can't comprehend using strategy to solve unfavorable situations then you can just ignore this content.

That was more my way of saying you might be right, but if you want to interpret it that way, knock yourself out.

It's still bad design, as I see it. And then there's the aforementioned 24x, which is one of, if not the most poorly designed maps in the series, and guess what? It's after the chapter where you can break your units out of prison, meaning that anyone left behind is gone.

Okay, so they might be minor issues... to you. But to me, they add up to make Thracia an unfun game to play, and completely unplayable, at that. The thing about healing staves being able to miss in particular is a huge dealbreaker, because as far as I'm concerned, it's inexcusably bad game design (also, out of all the RPGs I've either heard of or played, Thracia is literally the only one that I know of where healing skills can miss). Also, I have this thing called limited free time, and I'll spend it playing the games I like and want to play, NOT a game some fanboy's trying to guilt trip me into playing, thank you very much.

30 minutes ago, Emperor said:

I find it funny how most people bitching about the fatigue system and permanent ailments list their favorite game as fates/never played the game. The game that removes any semblance of resource management. Ill admit missing heals sucks but if the healer has 10 skill, they wont miss and the game gives you scrolls that can fix that so it was a non issue. 

I'd say more, but eclipse said what I would've.

18 minutes ago, Emperor said:

Beyond petty since you are missing a legitimate great game and one of Kaga's last games. Great maps, good  story, great game play otherwise (kidnapping is the bomb). Just give a healer a skill ring or one of the scrolls and in the SAME CHAPTER it wont ever miss. Every one who has played the dam game can tell you the same thing, its not that big of a deal. 

I just cannot agree with this. At all. Especially the bold. I will admit, I hate FE4 for being too different from the other FE games to get into and abysmal gameplay, and FE5's little better in the gameplay department. If there was a Kaga FE that I'd deem worthy of praise, it'd be FE3.

[Emperor]

Yes I have played Conquest and nah its kinda easy save for the very last map and the map with Taco and the great wall of Hoshido trying to keep everyone alive. AND trying not to put it down for its awful writing. Pair up is legitimately a horrible mechanic. They fixed it compared to awakening. but by end game defense stance is great. And fates does suck dude. Conquest has great maps and good game play but their is no resource management since nothing but tomes and staffs break. No weapon weight is fucking gay and hated New mystery for that, MU is awful, cast is far to pandering. But this is a FE5 is under rated and not a bash on fates thread. 

 

And why did you drop Thracia other then missable staves which, is fixable? 

 

 

 

[Valkama]

4 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That was more my way of saying you might be right, but if you want to interpret it that way, knock yourself out.

It's still bad design, as I see it. And then there's the aforementioned 24x, which is one of, if not the most poorly designed maps in the series, and guess what? It's after the chapter where you can break your units out of prison, meaning that anyone left behind is gone.

Okay, so they might be minor issues... to you. But to me, they add up to make Thracia an unfun game to play, and completely unplayable, at that. The thing about healing staves being able to miss in particular is a huge dealbreaker, because as far as I'm concerned, it's inexcusably bad game design (also, out of all the RPGs I've either heard of or played, Thracia is literally the only one that I know of where healing skills can miss). Also, I have this thing called limited free time, and I'll spend it playing the games I like and want to play, NOT a game some fanboy's trying to guilt trip me into playing, thank you very much.

I don't know man, I find 24x to be hella fun. Anyways I'm not trying to guilt trip you into playing these games I'm just saying it's probably not a good idea to be talking about how good or badly designed a game is when you've never played it. Just a thought.