is guidance overpowered?

[geozeldadude]

i'm really hating the introduction of this skill. it seems overpowered, since not just one unit can warp a large distance, but all infantry/armor units near tana (or whoever). it's not even locked to a lower HP, and it seems to really give two-range units a ridiculous amount of attack area. it's going to be super annoying to keep track of in the arena. is it just me? maybe i'll feel less bitter about it when i pull a tana myself. :p

[MrSmokestack]

Guidance? Overpoweredses? We don't thinkses so.

Two tileses of range is relatively smallses, so infantry and armorses can't crossmap through terrain except in very specific situationses.

Cavalry don't benefit from Guidanceses either, and they're arguably the best Mov typses in the game.

Being able to move onto forest tileses for extra range is good, we think. But that's really it most of the time.

EDITSES: In Arena Defese, the AI uses C buffses better most of the time anyway.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Legion!

[Arcanite]

I mean, like, it's pretty nasty if you can use it right for yourself. I don't think the AI knows how to do it though...

It's tooootally broken when player controlled though

[Ice Dragon]

Guidance at best gives an infantry or armor unit 3 movement that ignores terrain when moving in a direction towards the Guidance unit, which isn't all that much considering cavalry units have 3 movement in all directions all the time with only terrain limitations holding them back.

[Alexmender]

Overpowered? Not really, the range only allows Armored and Infantry units to have Cavalry movement at worst and a bit above that if used correctly. If anything Guidance is just like WoM and dancers, annoying and can easily ruin a deathless run if you're not paying attention. I'd say in arena the target priority goes like this: Reinhardt>Dancer>~Tana>Horses>Mages>>>>Everything else.

[Roflolxp54]

Not entirely overpowered as it's rather situational - it's useless in Flier Emblem teams and has reduced usefulness if Tana's team has 1 or more of fliers and/or cavalry units (and/or is in a team of 3 or fewer). If Tana (or any other flier that has learned Guidance 3) were to make the most of it, she'd want to be a bus for a team that consists of 3 infantry/armored units.

More infantry/armored units in the team = more value for Guidance.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Roflolxp54

[Hilda]

Annoying maybe, OP? definitly not. I mean it gives a unit 3 movement, but needs 2 units to do so. Reinhardt can move 3 tiles and still nuke everything into oblivion ¬.¬. I really dont see the problem there with Guidance, if anything it helps Infantery units, Its nowhere near as broken as a Horse-Emblem running all kinds of buffs and still haveing 3 movement.

[Lord-Zero]

1 hour ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Not entirely overpowered as it's rather situational - it's useless in Flier Emblem teams and has reduced usefulness if Tana's team has 1 or more of fliers and/or cavalry units (and/or is in a team of 3 or fewer). If Tana (or any other flier that has learned Guidance 3) were to make the most of it, she'd want to be a bus for a team that consists of 3 infantry/armored units.

More infantry/armored units in the team = more value for Guidance.

Wait until we get armored mages (IF we do) for some true Guidance terror. 

[XRay]

45 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

Wait until we get armored mages (IF we do) for some true Guidance terror. 

I think I read somewhere that some of the villains in the really old games are armored mages. I hope they release them some day. I want armored archers too.

[r_n]

The best AI use case for the skill I've seen has been the final paralogue map with tana, since Innes will abuse it before she moves, then Amelia after she moves.

But situations like that feel very situational. I think it will be a great skill for the player since they have absolute control over who moves where when, but the AI varies wildly. There's no telling how they'll use it in arena maps, tower maps are a crapshoot of positioning on top of the AI situation, same to the tempest to a degree.

I can see some GHB builds abuse this, but those are always made to be annoying in their skills & positioning.

Incidentally, since the tempest & tower only give skills if a character had an open slot & don't draw on GHB or seasonal units, the flyers you have to worry about are Beruka, Catria, Cordelia, Est, Tana & Subaki. So it probably won't even come up often out of the arena.

[Azuni]

^ I completely agree, it's a minor nuisance unless the enemy starting formation was deliberately set up to abuse it such as in that Paralogue map.

I'm excited to see what cool warping formations they'll come up for in later GHBs that have this skill on a unit(s). I can see people loving it for those bridge arena maps that people hated so much.
If anything I expect it to end up like Panic Ploy; rare to see in other peoples defense teams, and just one extra skill to quickly check all TT units for before you make a move.

[Ice Dragon]

27 minutes ago, XRay said:

I think I read somewhere that some of the villains in the really old games are armored mages. I hope they release them some day. I want armored archers too.

The Baron class in Jugdral was an enemy-only promoted armor class with access to all physical weapon types, all three types of elemental magic, and staves.

Reptor and Blume are the most notable magic-using Barons, both having access to the legendary Thorhammer tome.

 

17 minutes ago, Azuni said:

If anything I expect it to end up like Panic Ploy; rare to see in other peoples defense teams, and just one extra skill to quickly check all TT units for before you make a move.

Panic Ploy is actually incredibly common at the top end of the Arena because (1) Panic Ploy is tied for the highest SP cost in the C slot, (2) armors have a lot of HP, and (3) people with defense teams at the top have a lot of money to pull a lot of Lukes.

Most of these newer C skills are likely not commonly seen in the Arena not because they're gimmicky or situational, but because they are hard to get.

[Azuni]

13 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Panic Ploy is actually incredibly common at the top end of the Arena because (1) Panic Ploy is tied for the highest SP cost in the C slot, (2) armors have a lot of HP, and (3) people with defense teams at the top have a lot of money to pull a lot of Lukes.

Good to know, I guess I'll see that in a few months time. In the space jumping between Tier19 and 20 every week, I can only recall seeing a single Panic Ploy Hector, no others yet.

It'll be amusing seeing the defense AI units jumping across those bridges.

[mampfoid]

I like the new movement skills. Armor march makes using armors less painful and guidance seems fun. I hope I'll get a Tana soon to try it, but I don't feel the AI could border me much with it. 

To build a defense team around it you depend too much on map design and the AI. 

[Lord-Zero]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

I think I read somewhere that some of the villains in the really old games are armored mages. I hope they release them some day. I want armored archers too.

Bloom, Reptor and Arvis (Gen II) are armored magic users. As for armored archers, there's Lorenz from Shadow Dragon. I hope we get Arvis (Gen II) in Heroes someday. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Lord-Zero

[NekoKnight]

I don't really like how it will affect predicting AI. Dancers are bad enough but now you'll be have to consider a whole bunch of units warping without any health requirements.

 

[eclipse]

On 8/17/2017 at 11:22 AM, XRay said:

I think I read somewhere that some of the villains in the really old games are armored mages. I hope they release them some day. I want armored archers too.

Gordin wasn't good enough?

Ahem. . .

Guidance seems more annoying than anything.  WoM/Escape Route don't have distance checks, just health.  Guidance, at least, won't warp people from across the map.

[Sunwoo]

I wouldn't call it OP, just a nasty surprise if you didn't realize (or forgot) that a unit had it. But it's not particularly difficult to plan around it.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

Gordin wasn't good enough?

Ahem. . .

Guidance seems more annoying than anything.  WoM/Escape Route don't have distance checks, just health.  Guidance, at least, won't warp people from across the map.

No. He lacks the raw power of an armored unit. I want a higher base stat total.

[Zangetsu]

I think you guys are underestimating how powerful this skill can be. & It's not like people are going to have a convenient unit to counter it.

[geozeldadude]

On 8/17/2017 at 5:23 PM, r_n said:

The best AI use case for the skill I've seen has been the final paralogue map with tana, since Innes will abuse it before she moves, then Amelia after she moves.

But situations like that feel very situational. I think it will be a great skill for the player since they have absolute control over who moves where when, but the AI varies wildly. There's no telling how they'll use it in arena maps, tower maps are a crapshoot of positioning on top of the AI situation, same to the tempest to a degree.

 

yeah, this is basically the kind of thing that i'm talking about. i'm glad to see some people are as annoyed with this skill as i am b/c it overcomplicates things, but that's the inevitable direction the game is going in since they have to keep coming up with new and unique skills (see cancel affinity for another example).

[Tenzen12]

4 hours ago, Zangetsu said:

I think you guys are underestimating how powerful this skill can be. & It's not like people are going to have a convenient unit to counter it.

It's not like you need any convenient unit to counter it in first place. It's practically same as with WoM or ER. If you can deal with these, you can deal with Guidance as well.

[NekoKnight]

20 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

It's not like you need any convenient unit to counter it in first place. It's practically same as with WoM or ER. If you can deal with these, you can deal with Guidance as well.

ER and WoM can be more easily planned around because of the health requirement. Don't drop people's health down and you won't have to deal with it. Guidance can greatly alter the course of a battle depending on the order that units move.

[Ice Dragon]

5 hours ago, Zangetsu said:

I think you guys are underestimating how powerful this skill can be. & It's not like people are going to have a convenient unit to counter it.

Sniping or baiting the unit dead isn't particularly difficult. AI fliers have this bad habit of running ahead of the rest of the army due to the lack of terrain to impede them.

Arena maps tend to start all of the opponent's units in a straight line, meaning if the flier moves in a straight line towards you, the other units are now out of range to utilize Guidance.

[Tenzen12]

10 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

ER and WoM can be more easily planned around because of the health requirement. Don't drop people's health down and you won't have to deal with it. Guidance can greatly alter the course of a battle depending on the order that units move.

Basically still same though. Well Guidance indeed can greatly alter course of a battle. BTW WoM can also greatly change course of battle. And speaking of things that can greatly alter course big battle we shouldn't forget about ER.  And that's still is not all! Drag back can do that too as can Lunge. 

Regardless still easier to deal with than Rein in Vantage.