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How should weapons be handled?


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Would there be any reason against making Constitution as a more generic weapon wielding capacity? I would prefer a more flexible system where
Wielding Capacity = Constitution + (either Attack/x for physical weapons, or Magic/x for tomes) + Skill/y + Weapon skill level difference + other temporary buffs from medicines etc.
(x and y would be a constant divisor for the purpose of calculation)

  • The purpose of using Attack is to reflect muscles. Characters with stronger muscles can carry heavier stuff more easily. The use of Magic for tomes reflects magic power to carry heavy tomes, as well as skill/focus required in casting said magic.
  • For Skill and weapon level, this is to gauge whether a character can skillfully use a weapon that may be awkward to use - a weapon doesn't always have to be heavy to be unwieldly.
  • Temporary buffs would include the FE-verse's version of steroids (such as the +2 buff medicine from Fates) and adrenaline (such as Robin's "I'm in top form today!" from Awakening).

This would fix the balancing issues that Weapon Weight has, especially for those with traditionally low constitution, as you no longer have to contend to a single, near non-moving stat for keeping your attack speed that inherently favours certain classes/gender over others.

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  • 3 months later...

I do not like Fates weapon system AT ALL, and for several reasons.

1) Unlimited Uses. In FE games where you can buy everyone a weapon unlimited uses is not a good idea, for one you end up with more money than you need due to not needing to replenish weapons. Also it removes the realism factor of weapons having a limited number of uses and needing to be managed either by buying a new one or like in FE4 of repairing the weapon. Now because EVERY weapon has unlimited uses it removes a lot of the uniqueness of the legendary weapons like the Siegfried sword as it's just another weapon with unlimited uses, but if only the legendary weapons had unlimited uses it would have made them more special. By the way Legendary and Character Specific weapons should definitely have infinite uses.

2) Weapon Balance. The weapons are very poorly balanced, with there being favoritism towards the Daggers/Hidden weapons. In Fates we have hand axes, javelins, and daggers all of which are 1-2 range weapons, HOWEVER the rule of "cannot double" ONLY applies to the axes, javelins and certain tomes. This is why Master Ninja and Dread fighter are such OP classes because they have access to the ONE weapon that can counter attacks both up close and at a distance . The problem that I have isn't that Master Ninja and Dread Fighter are OP, I generally enjoy classes and characters that can become OP, my issue is that hand axes and javelins which are 1-2 range are prevented from doubling even if one has enough speed for it, but this rule does not apply to the daggers which are also 1-2 range. If daggers can double then so too should the hand axes and javelins. And having certain tomes not be able to double is ludicrous when sorcerers can only use tomes, and spears and tomahawks only useable at 2 range. That is absurd, why can tomahawks and spears only attack at 2 range? Part of the advantage of hand axes and javelins was during enemy phase (which is where most of the action happens) if enemies had ranged weaponry your units could counter them but with the nerfing of hand axes and javelins this isn't really a strategy anymore. Silver weapons subtracting your Str. by 2 points on every use means that no one is going to want to use SIlver weapons, they might as well have not put silver weapons in the game for all the good it did. Just go back to weapon weight and uses.

3) Beaststones vs Dragonstones. Corrin turning into a dragon was a very cool idea, but this is shortchanged by the fact that Corrin can't double attack when using a dragonstone meaning that swords, or tomes will always be a better option. And yet Keaton who uses a beaststone CAN double and usually does. So why can Keaton double when using a beaststone but Corrin can't when using the dragonstone? What I'm getting at is if Keaton can double with the beaststone than Corrin should double with the dragonstone, I want the same rules to apply to similar weapons.

4) The Forge. I like forging a lot but Fates has the worst, and most gimmicky forging system of any FE game. It makes it not only tedious but you have to spend more money to forge a weapon compared to FE 10 for instance. Additionally I miss being able to choose a color for my forged weapon. Change the forging system back to either FE 10 or 11.

Bottom line I do not like the infinite uses for all weapons certain weapons is alright but not all, I dislike that daggers which are 1-2 range are given different treatment than hand axes and javelins which are also 1-2 range, I do not like it that Silver weapons nerf one's stats so severely that one doesn't even want to use them anymore, some tomes cannot double as well as the absence of Anima, Light and Dark magic, and dragonstones not doubling but beaststones do.

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8 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

I do not like Fates weapon system AT ALL, and for several reasons.

1) Unlimited Uses. In FE games where you can buy everyone a weapon unlimited uses is not a good idea, for one you end up with more money than you need due to not needing to replenish weapons. Also it removes the realism factor of weapons having a limited number of uses and needing to be managed either by buying a new one or like in FE4 of repairing the weapon. Now because EVERY weapon has unlimited uses it removes a lot of the uniqueness of the legendary weapons like the Siegfried sword as it's just another weapon with unlimited uses, but if only the legendary weapons had unlimited uses it would have made them more special. By the way Legendary and Character Specific weapons should definitely have infinite uses.

2) Weapon Balance. The weapons are very poorly balanced, with there being favoritism towards the Daggers/Hidden weapons. In Fates we have hand axes, javelins, and daggers all of which are 1-2 range weapons, HOWEVER the rule of "cannot double" ONLY applies to the axes, javelins and certain tomes. This is why Master Ninja and Dread fighter are such OP classes because they have access to the ONE weapon that can counter attacks both up close and at a distance . The problem that I have isn't that Master Ninja and Dread Fighter are OP, I generally enjoy classes and characters that can become OP, my issue is that hand axes and javelins which are 1-2 range are prevented from doubling even if one has enough speed for it, but this rule does not apply to the daggers which are also 1-2 range. If daggers can double then so too should the hand axes and javelins. And having certain tomes not be able to double is ludicrous when sorcerers can only use tomes, and spears and tomahawks only useable at 2 range. That is absurd, why can tomahawks and spears only attack at 2 range? Part of the advantage of hand axes and javelins was during enemy phase (which is where most of the action happens) if enemies had ranged weaponry your units could counter them but with the nerfing of hand axes and javelins this isn't really a strategy anymore. Silver weapons subtracting your Str. by 2 points on every use means that no one is going to want to use SIlver weapons, they might as well have not put silver weapons in the game for all the good it did. Just go back to weapon weight and uses.

3) Beaststones vs Dragonstones. Corrin turning into a dragon was a very cool idea, but this is shortchanged by the fact that Corrin can't double attack when using a dragonstone meaning that swords, or tomes will always be a better option. And yet Keaton who uses a beaststone CAN double and usually does. So why can Keaton double when using a beaststone but Corrin can't when using the dragonstone? What I'm getting at is if Keaton can double with the beaststone than Corrin should double with the dragonstone, I want the same rules to apply to similar weapons.

4) The Forge. I like forging a lot but Fates has the worst, and most gimmicky forging system of any FE game. It makes it not only tedious but you have to spend more money to forge a weapon compared to FE 10 for instance. Additionally I miss being able to choose a color for my forged weapon. Change the forging system back to either FE 10 or 11.

Bottom line I do not like the infinite uses for all weapons certain weapons is alright but not all, I dislike that daggers which are 1-2 range are given different treatment than hand axes and javelins which are also 1-2 range, I do not like it that Silver weapons nerf one's stats so severely that one doesn't even want to use them anymore, some tomes cannot double as well as the absence of Anima, Light and Dark magic, and dragonstones not doubling but beaststones do.

I agree with you on the forge system being gimmicky and tedious as all hell, but I have trouble agreeing with you on everything else. I don't see Master Ninjas as OP when they have the lowest Strength cap, and the strongest shuriken is only 7 Mt (that is, the strongest shuriken that doesn't either debuff you or damage the user; there's also the Flame Shuriken, but it's rather limited in terms of who can do anything with it), and Dread Fighters are locked behind a paywall; also, you can only have two Dread Fighters at most without DLC. As for weapon balance, Hand Axes and Javelins doubling means bows would have their niche usurped (because it's not like that's been the case in, oh, most every other Fire Emblem game, right? Oh, wait, it has.), and personally, I like having an excuse to have bows as the go-to ranged weapon. As for dragonstones, I would hesitate to say that swords or tomes would always be a better option, especially in Birthright where Corrin doesn't get access to tomes, and second, Corrin's personal weapon drops their defense, which is also most notable in Birthright, where the Yato's upgrades don't boost defense. Combine this with Corrin not exactly taking hits like a champ, and... yeah. Regarding tomes, the only ones that couldn't follow up were randomly obtained tomes... and Nosferatu (and let's be frank, Nosferatu pretty much NEEDED to be nerfed). Beaststones didn't have a weapon with nuke level might handed to you early on, either (and the strongest one has hefty defense drops and reduces your stats after battle too). As for weight and durability, I don't see the merits of either (it's pretty telling that the most fair weight system was the one from the first 4 games... and it wasn't perfect either; durability only serves to encourage hoarding and the Too Awesome To Use trope).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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8 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

As for dragonstones, I would hesitate to say that swords or tomes would always be a better option, especially in Birthright where Corrin doesn't get access to tomes, and second, Corrin's personal weapon drops their defense, which is also most notable in Birthright, where the Yato's upgrades don't boost defense. Combine this with Corrin not exactly taking hits like a champ, and... yeah. 

When I say better than, I'm referring to how in most instances Corrin will not One Round K.O. any unit but will when equipped with a sword and maybe tome as well (depending on magic stat) mainly due to how Corrin can and usually will double with sword or tome but is not allowed to double with the dragonstone. Now the dragonstone does give a very nice boost to def but I only find this to be necessary in the early game, later on this is not really an issue, plus you have at least 2 healers on your side. Hence why I'm bummed out about not being able to double with dragonstones, especially since I thought Corrin transforming into a dragon was so cool it would have been nice to use the dragonstone as Corrin's main weapon but the lack of doubling really annoys me for reasons that I've previously said.

I understand what you mean about ninjas not having good str and therefore are not overpowered and I even agree with you to a point. When I say ninjas are  overpowered I mean that first of all the have Poison Strike, but it mainly revolves around they primarily use a direct and indirect weapon meaning they can counter any attack that is 1-2 range but they don't experience the penalty of not being able to double that a Hero does with a handaxe. In short I feel that either all direct/indirect weapons cannot double including daggers or they can all double. Let's not be picking and choosing when and where a rule applies.

I see what you're saying about the hand axes and javelins, however my thinking is that you don't nerf one thing to make another thing seem like a viable and good option. For example in FE4 swords and wind magic are the best weapons due to their incredibly low weight, this got changed in later games not by nerfing swords but by making the other weapons on more equal ground with the swords. In the same token I believe that a better approach to making bows good and giving them a niche as you put it would be to give them first of all greater range than what handaxes, javelins or daggers. Because if I'm being honest handaxes and other direct/indirect combat weapons having the same range as bow is absolutely ridiculous. Bows should have more range than the aforementioned handaxes etc. One approach that may have given bows a more prominent place but without nerfing any of the weapons would be to give all bows 3 range. Similar to when in FE10 when Shinon promotes to Marsmen ANY bow can be fired up to 3 squares regardless if it's a longbow or not, additionally maybe longbows could have greater than 3 range say 5 for instance but are actually good, lastly shortbows could be included which could function similar to bows in SoV. EXCEPT that they only have up to 3 range and instead of hits being an iffy thing, they are more or less accurate. In this scenario I think I've effectively described how bows could be made better than handaxes without nerfing any pre-existing weapon.

It is possible Nosferatu needed to be nerfed I never used it much because I wasn't a huge fan of it's animation I always liked the Flux, Luna or in the case of Awakening Ruin's animations better. Also I'm not a huge mage user, however I still hold that making a weapon in this case a tome which is the only weapon option of Sages and Sorcerers that it cannot double is a very bad move. And while I still don't like the nerf on hand axes and javelins at least Heroes and the like can switch to a sword or some other standard direct attack weapon. 

I know for myself the only weapons I have ever hoarded were effective damage weapons because I wanted to save them for their intended use, killing weapons because steel does more damage without relying on a crit. In general weapons that I had moved past onto equivalents with higher might. I do still hold that I miss both weapon uses and weapon weight as it seemed to add a realism factor that I enjoy, also I think that if you had both weapon uses and the weapon repair feature there are some interesting things that could be done there. For instance instead of just forging a weapon and it breaking after say 50 uses you could repair it at 30 uses or maybe the player chooses to forge it some more and then repair it etc.

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8 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

When I say better than, I'm referring to how in most instances Corrin will not One Round K.O. any unit but will when equipped with a sword and maybe tome as well (depending on magic stat) mainly due to how Corrin can and usually will double with sword or tome but is not allowed to double with the dragonstone. Now the dragonstone does give a very nice boost to def but I only find this to be necessary in the early game, later on this is not really an issue, plus you have at least 2 healers on your side. Hence why I'm bummed out about not being able to double with dragonstones, especially since I thought Corrin transforming into a dragon was so cool it would have been nice to use the dragonstone as Corrin's main weapon but the lack of doubling really annoys me for reasons that I've previously said.

I understand what you mean about ninjas not having good str and therefore are not overpowered and I even agree with you to a point. When I say ninjas are  overpowered I mean that first of all the have Poison Strike, but it mainly revolves around they primarily use a direct and indirect weapon meaning they can counter any attack that is 1-2 range but they don't experience the penalty of not being able to double that a Hero does with a handaxe. In short I feel that either all direct/indirect weapons cannot double including daggers or they can all double. Let's not be picking and choosing when and where a rule applies.

I see what you're saying about the hand axes and javelins, however my thinking is that you don't nerf one thing to make another thing seem like a viable and good option. For example in FE4 swords and wind magic are the best weapons due to their incredibly low weight, this got changed in later games not by nerfing swords but by making the other weapons on more equal ground with the swords. In the same token I believe that a better approach to making bows good and giving them a niche as you put it would be to give them first of all greater range than what handaxes, javelins or daggers. Because if I'm being honest handaxes and other direct/indirect combat weapons having the same range as bow is absolutely ridiculous. Bows should have more range than the aforementioned handaxes etc. One approach that may have given bows a more prominent place but without nerfing any of the weapons would be to give all bows 3 range. Similar to when in FE10 when Shinon promotes to Marsmen ANY bow can be fired up to 3 squares regardless if it's a longbow or not, additionally maybe longbows could have greater than 3 range say 5 for instance but are actually good, lastly shortbows could be included which could function similar to bows in SoV. EXCEPT that they only have up to 3 range and instead of hits being an iffy thing, they are more or less accurate. In this scenario I think I've effectively described how bows could be made better than handaxes without nerfing any pre-existing weapon.

It is possible Nosferatu needed to be nerfed I never used it much because I wasn't a huge fan of it's animation I always liked the Flux, Luna or in the case of Awakening Ruin's animations better. Also I'm not a huge mage user, however I still hold that making a weapon in this case a tome which is the only weapon option of Sages and Sorcerers that it cannot double is a very bad move. And while I still don't like the nerf on hand axes and javelins at least Heroes and the like can switch to a sword or some other standard direct attack weapon. 

I know for myself the only weapons I have ever hoarded were effective damage weapons because I wanted to save them for their intended use, killing weapons because steel does more damage without relying on a crit. In general weapons that I had moved past onto equivalents with higher might. I do still hold that I miss both weapon uses and weapon weight as it seemed to add a realism factor that I enjoy, also I think that if you had both weapon uses and the weapon repair feature there are some interesting things that could be done there. For instance instead of just forging a weapon and it breaking after say 50 uses you could repair it at 30 uses or maybe the player chooses to forge it some more and then repair it etc.

That isn't always a good thing, though... Anyways, I generally don't see Corrin one-rounding anything that isn't frail (and most of the frail classes tend to have enough speed that they can't double) with the other weapons unless they either had a Strength or Magic boon, or something, since both swords and tomes don't have the highest of Might...

I dunno about you, but if daggers couldn't double, they'd likely be practically useless outside of debuffs. Their being weak and mostly used by classes that have low Strength scores ain't enough for you???

I disagree here - nerfing is a necessary evil for balance. Balance cannot be achieved just by buffing. Also, I think the only thing you accomplished here is showing that you have no idea of what it means to balance something - granting extra range to bows would likely do little other than make enemy archers annoying as all hell. FYI, bows in Gaiden and SoV were kept in check by their accuracy.

My Nosferatu comment was more in the context of Awakening - it wasn't exactly what I'd call overpowered in Tellius or the GBA games. Also, I find it hilarious that you whine about daggers and hand axes and javelins should all either not double or they should all be allowed to double, and now you turn around and whine about some tomes not being able to double, even though out of the ones that can't double, two of them have bigger problems than not doubling, and another was Nosferatu, which, after Awakening, was pretty much in need of a nerfing...

But what I'm talking about is, in extreme cases, you have a complete refusal to use the weapon at all out of a fear that you might need it later. This especially applies to weapons that can't be replaced easily, if at all.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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The way Fates did is the best so far imo. Durability has always been a no problem and the only game it mattered in was RD. Con is one of the worst things in GBAFE, and the nerfed 1-2 range weapons was pretty nice to indirectly buff Bows.

Just nerf hidden weapons and we are good to go :D

Edited by Shrimperor
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Personally:

  • Durability should come back. While it worked in SoV with the nature of that game, it didn't work in Fates. I wasn't a fan of the debuff system since by the end of the game most of my units were still using Irons and also I felt the debuffs for Silvers was way to extreme. Also I fell like durability is enough of a debuff for stronger weapons.
  • Weight should return but done like SoV, being Spd-Weapon Weight.
  • Ranged lance or axes should be able to double when at 1 range but not at 2 range. Bows should be the go to 2 range weapon IMO.
  • As for bow range, I feel like normal bows should be either only 2 or 2-3, longbows should either be 2-3 or 3-5, depending. But their should also be another option, ala javelins and hand axes, being crossbows that have 1-2 range and don't do effective damage vs fliers.
  • For forging, SoV is the way to go IMO. Though I don't think evolving weapons really needs to come back. It made sense with SoV but I don't think it would in other games.
  • I personally however would not like Combat Arts to come back. Personally I would like the traditional skill system from either FE4/5 or FE9/10.
  • As for magic it should either be the GBA triangle or just one weapon type ala Fates and SoV, having different effects like killers, effective against certain types etc.
  • As for the WT as a whole, I prefer the older one versus Fates'. I actually think Heros has the best WT with the physical and magical triangle on top of each other and bows, daggers and stvaes being separate. Personally I would like to see Swords/Fire/Anima<Axes/Wind/Light<Lances/Thunder/Dark<Sword/Fire/Anima.
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On 12/10/2017 at 4:10 PM, Azz said:
  • Durability should come back. While it worked in SoV with the nature of that game, it didn't work in Fates. I wasn't a fan of the debuff system since by the end of the game most of my units were still using Irons and also I felt the debuffs for Silvers was way to extreme. Also I fell like durability is enough of a debuff for stronger weapons.

I don't really see the appeal of durability, especially from a strategic perspective - far as I'm concerned, it does little other than encouraging hoarding and not bothering to use weapons that can't be replaced easily, if at all. No one would bother to use Raijinto or Siegfried if they had to worry about them breaking, especially if just having them in the respective characters' inventories was enough to benefit from the boosted stats...

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2 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't really see the appeal of durability, especially from a strategic perspective - far as I'm concerned, it does little other than encouraging hoarding and not bothering to use weapons that can't be replaced easily, if at all. No one would bother to use Raijinto or Siegfried if they had to worry about them breaking, especially if just having them in the respective characters' inventories was enough to benefit from the boosted stats...

I get that, but I'm really not a fan of Fates' system and I see no other alternative other than durability. And honestly, it wouldn't be that hard to make durability more bearable by simply adding a weapon repair system ala FE4 accessible before the start of a chapter. Of coarse that would mean certain stronger weapons like braves, reavers etc would have to be less common but I still think it would be better than what Fates had.

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34 minutes ago, Azz said:

I get that, but I'm really not a fan of Fates' system and I see no other alternative other than durability. And honestly, it wouldn't be that hard to make durability more bearable by simply adding a weapon repair system ala FE4 accessible before the start of a chapter. Of coarse that would mean certain stronger weapons like braves, reavers etc would have to be less common but I still think it would be better than what Fates had.

Well, I personally thought not having to worry about weapons breaking for once was a breath of fresh air, even if there were some issues (silvers honestly aren't even the worst thing about them, though I do agree the debuffs are a bit on the extreme side  - rather, it's crap like Beruka's Axe, with its host of downsides, and the Spellbane Yumi, which is overly niche to the point of uselessness, that leave me shaking my head).

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Weapon durability stopped mattering you could purchase decent weapons (i.e. anything other than Iron) in between chapters rather than during the chapter itself (FE8/Awakening had the world map, 9/10 had shops incorporated into the base).

The nerf to Javelins and Hand axes should've been done much earlier. 

 I'm still trying to wrap my head around why people want the magic triangle back when most mages tend to have high resistance.

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  • 5 weeks later...

for my opinion on this, I prefer durability, the place that durability has in fire emblem is to make the player think about not just the current battle, but the next battle and the ones following even that, when the player uses an armorslayer, they accept that in that in a future battle they may not have a chance to use it on a potential high level general. I suppose that the best way to make durability more relevant (as some have noted) would be to decrease typical durability, probably to about half, 30 for bronze, 25 for iron, 20 for steel, 15 for killer, 10 for silver. this would demand more replacements at much sooner intervals.

as for weapon weight, the constitution system, I think, is the best one they can use and I don't think we need to change much, the Idea that others have put forth giving weapon rank an effective constitution for that weapon is a nice idea and I think it could be a good way of offering more possibilities for lower con units, what I think they could also do is add more weapon variety, a 'slim' class of weapons could be implemented to offer a more usable weapon type for lower con units, the slim weapons would have 3/4 weight and 4/5 might of regular weapons (could also be half or a more specific fraction if that seems too high), and along with that we could have a heavy class of weapons with more absurd weight and atk for units who have higher con maybe 2X the weight and 1 and a half the might, rather than change the system outright (I think it's good in theory) IS could take steps to see the system implemented in such a way as to make it more apparent and easier to live with.

of course I am always ok with compromise, so the abilities to turn off such systems for the casual filth is completely acceptable, it would be quite nice if IS was using options to satisfy more of the fanbase rather than dumb down the games at base for older fans and making the series unaccessible for new players. I mean can you really complain about a system being too difficult when you can just turn it off.

even though I dont think its relevant to the topic I feel like the magic triangle is also an idea that is always given too little thought, the problem is not with the triangle itself, its with the lack of thought being put in the magic classes, the addition of armored mages (of varying types)  with high defence and low resistance could offer some new possibilities for a magic triangle. heroes is a great example of this sort of idea being used, as not all mages have high res.

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12 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

as for weapon weight, the constitution system, I think, is the best one they can use and I don't think we need to change much, the Idea that others have put forth giving weapon rank an effective constitution for that weapon is a nice idea and I think it could be a good way of offering more possibilities for lower con units, what I think they could also do is add more weapon variety, a 'slim' class of weapons could be implemented to offer a more usable weapon type for lower con units, the slim weapons would have 3/4 weight and 4/5 might of regular weapons (could also be half or a more specific fraction if that seems too high), and along with that we could have a heavy class of weapons with more absurd weight and atk for units who have higher con maybe 2X the weight and 1 and a half the might, rather than change the system outright (I think it's good in theory) IS could take steps to see the system implemented in such a way as to make it more apparent and easier to live with.

I vehemently disagree with this - it'd be nothing but a HUGE step in the wrong direction... I honestly don't see the merits in a system that screws over female units in general, among others.

12 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

even though I dont think its relevant to the topic I feel like the magic triangle is also an idea that is always given too little thought, the problem is not with the triangle itself, its with the lack of thought being put in the magic classes, the addition of armored mages (of varying types)  with high defence and low resistance could offer some new possibilities for a magic triangle. heroes is a great example of this sort of idea being used, as not all mages have high res.

I can think of other problems - like the part where mages are generally better aimed at physical units (and in the case of enemies, in games where they prefer to do as much damage as they can, they'll just skirt around your mage and attack something that can't stand up to magic instead). Also, mentioning Heroes doesn't exactly do your case any favours, thanks to the weapon triangle pretty much being mandatory to adhere to if you don't want to get your ass handed to you. It'd take drastic measures for mage vs mage combat to be anything more than a waste of a turn.

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