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Is Marcus a good unit in FE7?


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Do you think Marcus is a good unit?  

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  1. 1. Is Marcus good?

    • Yes
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    • No
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6 hours ago, ping said:

Furthermore, I don't think that all Jeigans are considered top tier here, either. I believe that FE12!Arran, who has more and earlier competition than Marcus, is seen as rather unremarkable, for example.

I wouldn't say he's seen as unremarkable, since he's pretty important in the first few chapters due to lack of promoted units, so he's still really clutch. And even past that, being promoted means he's one of the better units you can deploy until like, 10x TBH, which is like half the game. So he's still totally better than most of the rest of the cast, and a unit you'd see in basically any playthrough for a significant period of time.

Being promoted is really good.

Edited by Irysa
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Marcus is the best unit in the game in a standard context and among the best in a ranked run. I guess the idea that Jagen units suck actually still exists in some parts of the internet.

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11 hours ago, Harvey said:

It all really depends on whether or not you have played Lyn's mode and grinded either Sain or Kent. If you have played it, they will most likely outpace him in the long run. Otherwise he's there to serve his purpose which is in the early game he starts out with.

Yeah, about the "it depends on whether you played Lyn's Story" bit.

5 hours ago, Shin said:

Marcus is way better than anyone else in early game, and is still relevant as a unit even towards the end. For Sain to match his offensive parameters, Sain needs to get to level 13 or something like 11/1. Even then Marcus takes mages a lot better, and that assumes that Marcus doesn't gain a single point of XP until Sain reappears. Sain wins the raw numbers game in the end, but Marcus' contributions outweigh Sain's overkill strength and speed - most FE7 enemies aren't very good!

What Shin said here pretty much covers what I want to say in response.

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

The problem with Marcus is that he steals valuable EXP that your other units may need to get better so personally I try to avoid using him as much as possible until I have no choice but to use him.

Except boss kills exist, and it's not like you're crippling your team if you have Marcus take a few kills here and there. After all, this game can be beaten under 0% growths.

 

10 hours ago, KKAfterbrun said:

Marcus is an ok unit. But what makes him somewhat debatable is the fact it's hard to feed him levels early on without making your other units trash. But if you don't use him before the Dragon's Gate map, he may fall behind quicker then you'd expect. (That happened to me on my first play through)

If you intend to use him, start feeding him level in chapter 15E/16H. Mostly with boss kills and reinforcements. That way he can be both useful in later maps and used as a backup if needed if your main paladin falls.

The mere fact that you mentioned boss kills kinda debunks the "it's hard to feed him levels" bit. And as I just said to Harvey, you're not weakening your team by using Marcus.

10 hours ago, KKAfterbrun said:

For me he's an on-the-fence unit, useful but only when I need the backup. Unlike FE8s Seth, Marcus doesn't always become a powerhouse. He maybe better the Isadora, but he's got less levels to grow compared to Kent, Sain, and Lowen.

Implying that Marcus would need more levels to function as a unit when he doesn't.

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Last time I looked over the averages, a 20 Marcus is fairly comparable up to roughly 20/10 Sain/Kent/Lowen, with some tradeoffs, but no crushing defeat for Marcus or anyone else. If 20/10 is considered to be endgame level, that's significant. And Kent's Spd lead can be called ignorable by virtue of his poor Lck (limiting his dodgetankiness), and the fact outside of a select few promoted classes (Heroes, SMs, Berserkers, Valks and NTs) that don't show up until late, enemies are generally slow, or at least can't double Marcus even if he can't double them.

On Normal, Marcus's bad stats, insofar they are bad, isn't a problem because Normal enemies are jokes. And on Hard, you often find yourself limited in unit deployment slots I find, and this is why I often resort to Marcus. The lack of unit slots but the desire to get all side objectives done and not at a snail's pace makes Marcus, with his weapon diversity, high move, and solid bases very valuable to me.

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6 hours ago, Irysa said:

I wouldn't say he's seen as unremarkable, since he's pretty important in the first few chapters due to lack of promoted units, so he's still really clutch. And even past that, being promoted means he's one of the better units you can deploy until like, 10x TBH, which is like half the game. So he's still totally better than most of the rest of the cast, and a unit you'd see in basically any playthrough for a significant period of time.

Being promoted is really good.

Yeah, unremarkable wasn't the best choice of words. I meant that he's not the one domineering unit of the earlygame, what with Catria, Palla and Sirius joining in chaptes 2, 3, and 4. I'm not gonna deny that a Arran is still a great unit to have, but Palla and Sirius are pretty much instantly even better.

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7 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

What Shin said here pretty much covers what I want to say in response.

Except you and Shin forgot one minor detail which is supports. Sain has a lot of support bonuses that overshadow that of Marcus.

 

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3 hours ago, Harvey said:

Except you and Shin forgot one minor detail which is supports. Sain has a lot of support bonuses that overshadow that of Marcus.

Except Supports take up a long time to build. And the only support Sain has that would make some semblance of difference is with Kent, and I doubt that the difference is significant.

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3 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Except Supports take up a long time to build. And the only support Sain has that would make some semblance of difference is with Kent, and I doubt that the difference is significant.

Yeah supports take a long time but compare them both and you can see that Sain has the most which means that the player has a choice of how Sain can end up.

But Marcus? Hardly has any flexibility and only three of them benefit him in the long run and one of them comes so late in the game that its not even worth it.

But to really argue further, let's start with Sain. Sain can get Anima, Fire, Light, Wind, Thunder and Dark. Lots of good choices here. 

Marcus....hm...only Anima, Fire and Dark...that's it..no variety here and again, one of his supports come so late in the game that it hardly matters.

Really though, I'll say it again, if Lyn's mode is played, Sain will most likely be better than Marcus by a MARGIN. Marcus may have better weapon ranks than him but you get only better weapons so late in the game and even then, Sain can do enough damage with just iron/steel alone and I'm disagreeing with what Shin or you are stating about Marcus here simply because Sain is more likely going to be better than Marcus due to the fact that he's unpromoted which means more additional numbers for him...that and that he has a higher strength growth than him.

 

 

 

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I haven't actually used Marcus that much, nor have I played hard mode to see how valuable he is.

But, he definitely has good bases and his growths are fine that he should be usable till endgame. Plus, he's a Paladin, with 8 movement and can use three weapon types. He's better than Isadora, at the very least.

However, I still prefer to use Lowen and Sain, mainly because those turn out good as well, and the fact that I'm just not a fan of earlygame prepromotes (the only exceptions being Seth and Gen2 Oifey).

 

Also, a question: Is Marcus actually even a Jeigan, or just some Oifey/simply a good earlygame prepromote? He definitely isn't extremely old, nor is sick, and he doesn't even have extremely bad growth rates. I personally think these traits would be needed to consider an earlygame prepromote a Jeigan, and Marcus has none of these traits until the events of FE6 happen. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Harvey said:

Yeah supports take a long time but compare them both and you can see that Sain has the most which means that the player has a choice of how Sain can end up.

But Marcus? Hardly has any flexibility and only three of them benefit him in the long run and one of them comes so late in the game that its not even worth it.

But to really argue further, let's start with Sain. Sain can get Anima, Fire, Light, Wind, Thunder and Dark. Lots of good choices here. 

Marcus....hm...only Anima, Fire and Dark...that's it..no variety here and again, one of his supports come so late in the game that it hardly matters.

Really though, I'll say it again, if Lyn's mode is played, Sain will most likely be better than Marcus by a MARGIN. Marcus may have better weapon ranks than him but you get only better weapons so late in the game and even then, Sain can do enough damage with just iron/steel alone and I'm disagreeing with what Shin or you are stating about Marcus here simply because Sain is more likely going to be better than Marcus due to the fact that he's unpromoted which means more additional numbers for him...that and that he has a higher strength growth than him.

Are you freaking kidding me? Marcus is worse than Sain because in 999999 turns he can unlock trivial amounts of stat boosts that are completely pointless to clear the game? For Sain to even come close to Marcus at base he has to be 13/1 and gotten really lucky (or rigged) levelups, and you pretend like Marcus doesn't have growths nor that you can dump stat boosters on him. Who cares about supports if you can go Rambo and make the game a joke?

1 hour ago, Flee Fleet! said:

But, he definitely has good bases and his growths are fine that he should be usable till endgame. Plus, he's a Paladin, with 8 movement and can use three weapon types. He's better than Isadora, at the very least.

Paladin, great bases, great growths, good weapon ranks, only 2 stat boosters needed. What more do you want in a character? Isadora is super good.

Edited by L9999
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11 hours ago, Harvey said:

Except you and Shin forgot one minor detail which is supports. Sain has a lot of support bonuses that overshadow that of Marcus.

Let's say that Sain supports with Kent, for argument's sake. We can probably get them to B by the end of the game - you have to go pretty slow to get most A ranks. This nets Sain an extra 2 attack, 10 hit and 5 avoid. This roughly correlates with having an extra 2 strength along with 5 skill and luck. Whilst pleasant, you'd be hard pressed to find many situations where this would be crucial rather than mildly convenient!  Especially considering that you won't be seeing these bonuses until late game, where it's established that Marcus does much of his work during the early and middle parts of the game.

Marcus also has almost sole claim to his silver lance in Hector's Mode, where Sain or Kent would have to wait to at least after Uhai's chapter to use. There's nothing wrong with liking Sain's shiny stats, but Marcus' contributions from the get-go and solid performance all game are what make him more useful!

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12 hours ago, Harvey said:

Except you and Shin forgot one minor detail which is supports. Sain has a lot of support bonuses that overshadow that of Marcus.

 

Supports are irrelevant in FE7 in terms of being efficient.

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Prepromos are usually good, but they unfortunately give some new players a false sense of "hey I'll just let the prepromo run the show while my scrubbier units stay underleveled and underdeveloped". I don't remember if it is possible to just solo the game with Marcus and have other units clean up the mess (it probably is, its been a long time since I've played FE7), but obviously he can't be doing two things simultaneously or being in two places simultaneously. When you need another unit to do another task while Marcus or another unit is busy and they're underdeveloped, this tends to be troublesome. This is especially harder on new players.

I don't like using prepromos (because they're exp sponges and that exp is more valuable for other units since they hardly earn a level anyway. Also because they make the game easy), but I have to admit they have many uses.

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5 hours ago, L9999 said:

Paladin, great bases, great growths, good weapon ranks, only 2 stat boosters needed. What more do you want in a character? Isadora is super good.

I don't think she's that great considering her bases.

And since Marcus exists, then there's not much reason to use her......?

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2 hours ago, Flee Fleet! said:

I don't think she's that great considering her bases.

And since Marcus exists, then there's not much reason to use her......?

You lose nothing by using both. There is no written or enforced rule that you can't use more than 1 paladin. If your logic is that she sucks because Marcus is better does that mean Sain, Kent, and Lowen suck as well because they are worse than Marcus? Of course not.

 

Edited by L9999
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8 hours ago, L9999 said:

Are you freaking kidding me? Marcus is worse than Sain because in 999999 turns he can unlock trivial amounts of stat boosts that are completely pointless to clear the game? For Sain to even come close to Marcus at base he has to be 13/1 and gotten really lucky (or rigged) levelups, and you pretend like Marcus doesn't have growths nor that you can dump stat boosters on him. Who cares about supports if you can go Rambo and make the game a joke?

Uhh...supports do play some role in the game because otherwise, why would they be there.

Any ways, are you saying that Marcus is a god like Athos? Because if so, then why doesn't everyone just do a solo on all chapters using only Marcus to see your point then?

8 hours ago, Shin said:

Let's say that Sain supports with Kent, for argument's sake. We can probably get them to B by the end of the game - you have to go pretty slow to get most A ranks. This nets Sain an extra 2 attack, 10 hit and 5 avoid. This roughly correlates with having an extra 2 strength along with 5 skill and luck. Whilst pleasant, you'd be hard pressed to find many situations where this would be crucial rather than mildly convenient!  Especially considering that you won't be seeing these bonuses until late game, where it's established that Marcus does much of his work during the early and middle parts of the game.

Marcus also has almost sole claim to his silver lance in Hector's Mode, where Sain or Kent would have to wait to at least after Uhai's chapter to use. There's nothing wrong with liking Sain's shiny stats, but Marcus' contributions from the get-go and solid performance all game are what make him more useful!

Why are you only doing one support here when Sain has so many other supports as well. Isn't thunder actually a good affinity for Sain?

 

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8 hours ago, Harvey said:

Uhh...supports do play some role in the game because otherwise, why would they be there.

They play a role in the game, yes. But that role isn't very significant. After all, this game can be beaten without a single Support rank gained. And as such, Supports are pretty much extras for the player. 

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Any ways, are you saying that Marcus is a god like Athos? Because if so, then why doesn't everyone just do a solo on all chapters using only Marcus to see your point then?

The problem with this statement is that Athos exists for one chapter only. That's hardly enough time for anyone to make a contribution big enough to make a big enough difference to be counted as a top tier unit. Athos may be good, but his availability (or lack thereof) is a noticeable flaw on his part.

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Why are you only doing one support here when Sain has so many other supports as well. Isn't thunder actually a good affinity for Sain?

Sain/Fiora and Sain/Priscilla requires 40 turns per Support level. Not happening. Sain/Isadora requires 80 turns per Support level. Also not happening. Serra's grounded and her Support with Sain is as fast as Sain X Fiora or Priscilla. Louise is grounded, her Support with Sain is as fast as Sain/Isadora, and she's busy providing backup to Pent anyways. Kent's the most viable option he has for Supports from an efficient standpoint. And even then, 17 turns for a C, 27 turns each for a B and an A, totalling 71 turns for an A, isn't guaranteed to allow Sain and Kent to build Supports.

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3 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

They play a role in the game, yes. But that role isn't very significant. After all, this game can be beaten without a single Support rank gained. And as such, Supports are pretty much extras for the player. 

And yet, for units like Guy to be good, they are kinda needed.

Sure the game is beatable without supports but why do something like that in the first place to begin with? Its not like the game will reward you in doing so nor does it help break the game further.

4 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

The problem with this statement is that Athos exists for one chapter only. That's hardly enough time for anyone to make a contribution big enough to make a big enough difference to be counted as a top tier unit. Athos may be good, but his availability (or lack thereof) is a noticeable flaw on his part.

Athos is basically handicap for those who somehow screwed up their team. It also doesn't help that Marcus does jack squat to the final boss unlike Athos.

Also, again...why isn't it possible to do a solo run of Marcus for the entire game then?

4 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Sain/Fiora and Sain/Priscilla requires 40 turns per Support level. Not happening. Sain/Isadora requires 80 turns per Support level. Also not happening. Serra's grounded and her Support with Sain is as fast as Sain X Fiora or Priscilla. Louise is grounded, her Support with Sain is as fast as Sain/Isadora, and she's busy providing backup to Pent anyways. Kent's the most viable option he has for Supports from an efficient standpoint. And even then, 17 turns for a C, 27 turns each for a B and an A, totalling 71 turns for an A, isn't guaranteed to allow Sain and Kent to build Supports.

Why do you say that it won't happen. Its a choice that the player has to make Sain better and even then, Isn't there the term "Arena abuse"?

 

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41 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Why do you say that it won't happen. Its a choice that the player has to make Sain better and even then, Isn't there the term "Arena abuse"?

Simply put, you pretty much HAVE to stall to get supports.

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A bit late to the party, but to echo some other people:

Marcus is a pretty great unit. In ranked (or LTC) runs he's great for lowering your turn count early on and still having a good unit later on in the game while there's not a lot of time to train up lots of units.

For casual runs, I generally use him as a panic button in the early game. You need to get to a village fast, but there's a lot of enemies blocking the way? send Marcus. There's a certain enemy that's causing you trouble? Marcus can kill him. There's just to much enemies for your units to handle? Let Marcus thin out the horde a bit.

Marcus is a unit that is godly early on, and stays good for a long time. His role isn't to solo the entire game, it's to make the early to mid game easier. Kent and Sain do surpass Marcus at some point, but the utility Marcus provides up until then can't be denied. A simple way to look at it:

If Marcus was not in the game, the early chapters of HHM would be made quite a lot more difficult.

If Sain and Kent were not in the game, the difficulty wouldn't change that much (apart from Lyn mode I guess).

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15 hours ago, Harvey said:

Any ways, are you saying that Marcus is a god like Athos? Because if so, then why doesn't everyone just do a solo on all chapters using only Marcus to see your point then?

A unit doesn't have to literally solo the game to be the best character, you have to be really naive or really dumb to think that way. Not even Sigurd can solo FE4. All efficiency strategies involve Marcus running ahead killing mostly everything with the rest following his trail, thus my Rambo comment.

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

Sure the game is beatable without supports but why do something like that in the first place to begin with? Its not like the game will reward you in doing so nor does it help break the game further.

Because supports are completely pointless in gameplay.

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8 hours ago, Harvey said:

And yet, for units like Guy to be good, they are kinda needed.

Guy's not a unit known for long-term usability or having as much contributions as Marcus.

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Sure the game is beatable without supports but why do something like that in the first place to begin with? Its not like the game will reward you in doing so nor does it help break the game further.

Same could be said about doing Supports in the GBA games in the first place.

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Athos is basically handicap for those who somehow screwed up their team. It also doesn't help that Marcus does jack squat to the final boss unlike Athos.

Lots of units do jack to the final boss. Marcus is hardly unique in that regard.

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Also, again...why isn't it possible to do a solo run of Marcus for the entire game then?

It kinda is. But that's not why Marcus is FE7's best unit. Like L9999 said, the best unit because maps are cleared more quickly with him on the team than they are without him. 

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Why do you say that it won't happen.

Because in the time that it takes for Sain to get an A Support with someone like Serra, Fiora, or Priscilla, the player could clear about half of the game.

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Its a choice that the player has to make Sain better

Stronger doesn't (always) mean better. Especially in terms of unit comparisons involving one unit that's rated higher than another. Such is the case with Marcus and Sain, with Marcus being rated higher than Sain.

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and even then, Isn't there the term "Arena abuse"?

Arena Abuse is never considered as a legitimate argument in favor of a unit. The simple fact is, you're not looking at that unit's natural strength by Arena Abusing them. Not to mention, such a method trivializes the game anyways.

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9 hours ago, L9999 said:

Not even Sigurd can solo FE4.

Actually he pretty much can...

Alright fine, I'm not going to argue any further here and will accept that Marcus is the best unit ever. But if Marcus ever dies, Sain/Kent will replace him fairly well and that is something that needs to be mentioned.

I guess my grudge here is that I don't really like Marcus as he is the most boring character I've ever used like Roy and his conversations a pretty forgettable. Then again, that's exactly the reason why you have other units that have better character than him.

Edited by Harvey
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I have to say that supports aren't that tedious to get in this game outside of a ranked run. Sure, you'll have to repeatedly press A-up-A, but it's really not a huge time investment to make. They're still more "nice to have" than "gamechangingly strong", but I wouldn't just dismiss them as too slow.

That said, it's not like Marcus doesn't have any support options. The support with Lowen even grows at +3, he can support with Eliwood (although that slot might be contested, especially if the player plays the Waifu game), and Isadora is still recruited, she can form a support triangle with Marcus and Lowen, as well. Sure, Sain has more options (and a better affinity, imho), but since there are only 5 support convos per game anyway, I don't see it making a meaningful difference between them.

And, of course, Marcus is still better because of all the numbers he has before taking supports into account, so this post is mostly just nitpicking. ;)

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8 minutes ago, ping said:

I have to say that supports aren't that tedious to get in this game outside of a ranked run. Sure, you'll have to repeatedly press A-up-A, but it's really not a huge time investment to make. They're still more "nice to have" than "gamechangingly strong", but I wouldn't just dismiss them as too slow.

I would especially since GBA supports are 100x slower than like every other support type in the franchise.

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