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Why is Clive so spineless, or, How I learned to stop worrying and hate the Alm


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3 hours ago, AzureSen said:

And while I like Lukas a lot as a character, I feel that him taking over the Deliverance would be akin to Virion taking over as tactician of the Shepherds. Yes, theoretically he could get better results than Alm, but the cost in lives would outweigh the benefits. 

This. Lukas is way too comfortable with collateral damage. Clive's too emotional and it leads to indecision and military failures. Lukas is too cold-blooded and willing to embrace "end justifies the means" way of executing a war. If Clive were an actual pragmatist he wouldn't need to lean so heavily on Lukas, and Lukas frankly needs someone reining him in-- check out their minor disagreement over Fear Mountain if you haven't already. Clive offers the route that he thinks might be safest, Lukas advocates for an assault that risks high casualties but would bring good PR.

As Fire Emblem's teen-prodigy army commanders go frankly I find the way Alm was handled to be pretty compelling. I guess it would be more realistic to have the teenager in charge of an army over his head and floundering, but that's what a Thracia 776 remake is for.

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4 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Actually, and this is only tangentially related, but I wanted to ask about this because what I've seen you write elsewhere: outside of his parentage, what makes Ike worthy of being leader of the Greil Mercenaries and later the Crimean Liberation Force that Alm lacks?

On the GMs, nothing, beyond Greil's wishes I guess. On the CLA, it couldn't be a Begnionite that leads because it'd undermine the idea that Crimea is an independent country- and Elincia lacks military experience. And like Alm, Ike's parentage is unknown when he is given the reins of the CLA and it remains that way until the beginning of Chapter 26.

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4 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Lukas taking over doesn't solve the underlying problems regarding the class divisions in the Deliverance; he may not be as high-ranking as Clive or Fernand, but Lukas is still a noble at the end of the day. And while I like Lukas a lot as a character, I feel that him taking over the Deliverance would be akin to Virion taking over as tactician of the Shepherds. Yes, theoretically he could get better results than Alm, but the cost in lives would outweigh the benefits. 

Actually, and this is only tangentially related, but I wanted to ask about this because what I've seen you write elsewhere: outside of his parentage, what makes Ike worthy of being leader of the Greil Mercenaries and later the Crimean Liberation Force that Alm lacks? 

Alm doesn't need to be the leader to rally support for the Deliverance. While they do describe his promotion as a PR move, he is explicitly in charge. The problem I have with the situation is there is so much more to being a leader than what Alm has. Familiarity with the conflict, the enemy, the geography, the kind of charisma that inspires loyalty and courage, and so on. Alm is a teenager who lived his whole life in a village. No amount of training by Mycen could have prepared him for what he needs to be to lead a resistance. Compare this to Lukas who is respected by his peers and has months (years?) of actual fighting experience fighting against Desaix, to speak nothing of his worldly experience and knowledge of Zofia/Rigel.

I don't think Robin needed replacing. Sure, his past and credentials were not vetted but his tactical prowess is demonstrated from the very beginning, so it stands to reason he was proving himself in that capacity. All Alm proved himself to be was a competent soldier, not a leader.

In regards to Ike, his right and ability to lead the Greil Mercenaries was discussed in game. Two members of the mercenaries don't have enough faith in him and leave, which left Titania as the would be leader, but she cedes the position out of respect for Greil whom she had great admiration for. It should noted that Ike was always expected to take up leadership of the mercenaries, it just happened sooner than anyone would have imagined. So was Ike the proper choice for a leader? No, probably not, but there is a human element at work here. The Greil Mercenaries are like a family so personal feelings about who ought to be the leader override more pragmatic decisions (a very different situation compared to Clive and Lukas who don't have an emotional interest in Alm becoming the leader).

Fast forward to Ike becoming leader of the Crimean Liberation Force. By this point Ike has proven himself a soldier and a leader, and it only makes sense that Elincia, the monarch of Crimea, would want Ike to continue representing her interests. He has also proven himself (after that Laguz slavery investigation) to Sanaki. There are also Begnion forces involved, but Ike is not directly leading them, even being advised to liberate Crimea with their own forces so that they can remain independent after the war ends. So there you have it, Ike is initially promoted because of emotional attachments but is later given another promotion after proving himself to two country's sovereigns.

I think I could have bought Alm becoming the leader the Deliverance by the end of part 3, after he shows wisdom and ability that Clive lacks, but it broke my suspension of disbelief that he was considered for leadership before that.

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9 hours ago, AzureSen said:

The issues with how likable it makes Clive aside, Clive can't and shouldn't bring it up because it's not in-character for him to do so. I've already discussed how Clive isn't a pragmatist prior in the thread, so having him suddenly bring this up apropos of nothing would be completely out of place.

 

The issue is that Clive, as a foil, should have been written around conflicts with Alm. If the audience doesn't want to sympathize with him, that's there prerogative, but hey, part of having an interesting story is having somewhat unsympathetic people on the good side that don't defect in less than an hour after introduction, as is having characters who the fanbase can be divided on. I'm not advocating we be told how to feel about Clive's opinions here, but their purpose should be to drive Alm's character forwards.. Instead, Alm's primary foil is someone who makes Jerry from Rick and Morty seem iron willed. 

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20 hours ago, AzureSen said:

I should have been more clear on this, my apologies. The issue here is not pragmatism. You generally cannot have a character express the idea that one person's life is more valuable than another's because of their social status, even if it's just from a vaguely pragmatic viewpoint, and still have them be sympathetic in the eyes of the audience. Fernand is an excellent example of this, and to use an example of it outside of FE, Algus/Argath from Final Fantasy Tactics is still one of the most hated characters from that game if not from FF as a whole for expressing such a viewpoint. If Clive had expressed that sort of mindset at any point while the game was still trying to portray him as sympathetic, he'd be just as hated as those two if not more so, regardless of whether he grew out of it or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Algus was also a classist bigot that insulted those he felt were beneath him and eventually killed the sister of another more likeable character (both of which were lower class). While I'm sure the suggestion of saying there's more strategic worth in the lives of higher class citizens didn't help, the character didn't exactly have the most likeable traits to begin with either and of course saying something like that would only exacerbate the hatred of those against him. Fernand is similar, the character can't stop spewing bile at Alm and friends for being lower class and he betrays his country in a very questionable manner, so his bias are not going to be respected since they're driven more by hate then pragmatism.

Regardless, just because it didn't work there doesn't mean it can't work in another story or character. Algus' story isn't going to be repeated 1:1 with Clive or anyone else's (unless it's intentionally drawn from him) and Clive already has differences between them. Clive respects those of lower class, characters like Forsyth worship the ground he walks on, and he's willing to do self reflection and change rather then remain stagnant and hateful. The traits to make him likeable are already there and you can use those traits to make an interaction between him and Alm more understandable and less driven in hate. Additionally, different writers can bring different perspectives, characteristics and interactions to make the situation more appealing to the audience without making the character dislikable. It's all in how it's written, and with Clive they can write in a way that makes him understandable and not reviled.

Edited by Medeus
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8 hours ago, Medeus said:

It's all in how it's written, and with Clive they can write in a way that makes him understandable and not reviled.

I think that could be the case. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the hierarchal nature of the Medieval period was "everyone has a place and everyone should be in their place doing their place's duty". Noblesse oblige was the idea the nobles alone were suited for public service right? Well just have Clive operate according to this hierarchal structure, believing that it is sincerely true. Putting commoners in noble-suited positions is like having pugs do the job of bloodhounds, the natural order of things is overthrown and true justice cannot happen no matter how good the intentions behind the move.

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