Conquest Odin -- Heart Seal Viability

[Mandokarla]

I've been playing Conquest Hard Classic lately, and I was determined to use Odin because I love the Awakening Trio's characters, and I decided to test how Odin performs when you heart seal him back into Owain (Samurai). For me, this has resulted in a unit that I can quite reliably give a pair up partner to, and then throw him at half of the map and win. I realize that as a mage Odin is objectively bad, but after trying this I honestly think he is supposed to be heart sealed into a samurai. Unless your Corrin can go Samurai/Swordmaster, this would make him one of, if not the, only swordmaster-capable units on the Conquest route. This means Vantage, Astra, Swordfaire, and the (to me) underrated Duelist's Blow. I know that sword-lock is traditionally a not-wanted attribute, but in Conquest a lot of the bosses are either at WT Disadvantage, or neutral WT, so Swordmaster!Odin is a fairly reliable boss-killer too. 

His personal skill lets you get acceptable amounts of crit from even just a forged Iron/Steel sword, but a forged and properly named Killing Edge gives him enough to crit reliably. Additionally, even though his skill growths don't make it really necessary, starting with Heartseeker lets him hit targets with high avoid in the early levels more easily -- though there aren't a terribly large number of ninjas before he would likely be promoting. 

I guess what I am posting this for is for discussion on whether or not you think it's worth the early Heart Seal. If you bring it with you to his recruitment chapter, there are a lot of axe-users that he can get easy kills on, but that heart seal might be better used on Corrin? What do you guys think?

[Koumal8]

Care to post his stats? I did use Samurai!Odin once on the same difficulty and throwing him at half the map to win a la Ryoma was most certainly not a feasible option. Samurai!Odin is by no means bad and he's probably much easier to use than Mage!Odin, but I have to say I found his Str a bit underwhelming unless I gave him Beruka as a pair up. He's also quite frail even with a +Def pair up, especially in low HP emblem. I mean... he was fine and fun to use but I feel like you're giving him a bit too much credit.

If immediately reclassed, lv.5 Samurai!Odin has 22HP/9Str/2Mag/12Skl/12Spd/11Lck/6Def/5Res which is a fairly standard Myrmidon spread, the big problem being that he's gonna have subpar offense for a couple of chapters due to E Rank sword; Lv.20/1 Swordmaster!Odin has 32HP/17Str/8Mag/24Skl/23Spd/23Lck/14Def/11Res. I'm not trying to downplay him but with that spread, while more than viable, it doesn't seem to me like he can solo any half-map. Conquest and Fates in general also sports some surprisingly bulky enemies: Spear Fighters and Spearmasters he can't ORKO, Masters of Arms, Oni Chieftains and Merchants are too bulky for him, as well as Cavaliers (I think), most definitely Paladins, Wyvern Riders, Wyvern Lords and Faceless are all too bluky to take out without a crit. His offense does receive a massive boon with the Swordmaster crit bonus which really lets him shine (with a Killing Edge I think he reaches 45-50 crit easily) but he often wants a Dual Katana to reliably dodge non-axe enemies (keep in mind Fates uses single-RNG under 50 hit wich automatically makes dodge-tanking less effective than in previous entries) and if he's wielding that suddenly he can't crit that much anymore.

Overall using one of your first two Heart seals on him is not a bad idea, but there are units who can probably put it to better use like Jakob (I never tried but I hear he's almost the Seth of the game if reclassed to Paladin early on), Mozu, Corrin or Selena (I never tried PegKnight!Selena either but I can guess what makes her good).

[Orange Juice]

In my experience, the only time he can truly take the whole map on solo is with Vantage from Samurai and Nosferatu. However, I've also found that with that build, if you leave him behind for a chapter or two, the enemies catch up to his level advantage and he ends up being godawful again. I sent him back to swordmaster after that and, while he was never my best unit, he was able to get back on par pretty quickly that way. His personal with a forged Killing Edge was A+ for landing crits.

tl;dr if you want to cheese the whole game, Mage->Samurai for Vantage->Mage->Sorc Odin and don't look back even for a second (though tbh Ophelia does this job better). If you want room to have fun with a speedy crit build, go Swordmaster.

[Mandokarla]

My Swordmaster Odin is level 8 right now, his spread looks like 36HP/20Str/9Mag/24Skl/28Spd/25Lck/17Def/13Res. His S support with Selena puts him over 30 speed and gives him some other lovely stats, but speed is best stat. Since posting this I cleared two chapters, now on the chapter where Zola captures the Hoshidan royals -- at this point I can't just throw him about willy nilly, things have defense now. Before that I could have him and Selena paired up and cut through the Mokushu ninjas. My problem on that map was me misplacing Elise....a lot. I'll admit to babying him a bit early on, and I might have just been rng blessed, but yeah. I'm on chapter 18 now, and I definitely CAN'T use him the same way now. Too many Great Knights and Generals. 

Edit: Tangential side note, Selena as Ophelia's mother actually isn't terrible. It's definitely not optimal, I think Elise is the best mother for Ophelia, but Selena as her mom doesn't reduce any of her growths or lower any of her stat caps, it just rounds her out. Again, I know well-rounded isn't good for Conquest, but it's not terribad. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Mandokarla

[Koumal8]

16 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

Before that I could have him and Selena paired up and cut through the Mokushu ninjas.

On Player Phase. But there are many units who can cut through Mokushu ninjas on Player Phase. Ninjas are mainly a threat on Enemy Phase thanks to non-nerfed 1-2 range and there's no way Odin can take them on with his non-doubling 1-2 range katanas. I mean, I wouldn't be all that impressed by that.

Also sorry but OdinxSelena is really a bad pair up for the redhair tsundere: she really wants Str to keep her offense above average and put her amazing speed to good use... but Odin gives him none. Just something to keep in mind for your next playthrough. 

[Mandokarla]

I know it isn't good for Selena, but she's not my focus here. Mine does decently on her own, though I need to feed her a few kills, she's behind a few levels. I'm actively trying to not abuse the royals because frankly I don't like them much. I think Leo is pretty objectively bad, Camilla is too good, Xander misses every other attack/counterattack, and Elise is mandatory. I try to keep Leo/Xander undeployed and only use Camilla sparingly. I need Elise as a healer, so she stays. 

Selena is also my least favorite of the Trio, so I am not gonna be sad if she falls off super hard. Laslow and Odin are my bros. 

Regarding the mokushu, when I played the chapter I think they only managed to Hit Odin twice in total. I had him paired with Laslow because I like their support convos. In my first playthrough I did Selena and Laslow which seemed much better to me. It also made Soleil decently strong, if somewhat lackluster in regards to inherited skills (which is because I didn't wait to get her, oh well). Anyway, I could reliably camp Odin out as a chokepoint holder or as bait and be completely fine. Made the chapter a lot easier for me. 

Also, Ophelia got vantage, so I can set up that Vengance + Vantage combo once I reclass her into Sorc. Only just thought about that. 

[Koumal8]

Leo is like the only good mage in Conquest bar Corrin, he just needs Maid!Felicia or Adventurer!Nyx to patch his speed and get his offense going, his decent bulk will do the rest (and it's not like Felicia and Nyx have better uses than to be pair up bots for him). Also it's weird that your Xander is missing so much, he only has troubles hitting Ninjas and Swordmasters, Siegfried, being a sword, is plenty accurate and his skill is not bad by any means. But I don't think you need me to explain to you why the royals are top tiers and if you're managing Hard Conquest without them, props to you I guess, I don't know if I could :D

[Mandokarla]

I don't know how much longer I'll be able to go without them, aside from Pearl Harb-- Chapter 10 I mean, it hasn't been hard like I was expecting until now. Resets in the interim chapters came from me hitting end turn accidentally, 3% crits, or me just miscounting range. Chapter 10 is actually as it stands one of my favorite chapters in all of Fire Emblem, I feel it is a very fair and nuanced challenge map. It was hard in the right ways, but now the game is getting hard because enemies have defense stats now. I think I might have to start using Xander as a meatshield. Still torn on Leo, he's so damn slow. I might feed him Felicia though, I hadn't considered that pairing for some reason. 

Yeah, I'm conviced that this chapter is the chapter where Swordmaster!Odin has to bide his time and just wait to kill bosses. 

[Koumal8]

What chapter are you on exactly? I mean, the royals are good, but if you're already on say chapter 19-20 they're only gonna be dead weight, especially Leo, if you didn't give them at least a couple of levels. Camilla can catch up fast, so there's that. 

[Mandokarla]

I'm on Chapter 18 right now. Camilla has gotten enough use to be level 8, so she's still usable. Xander is a wall, that's all I need him to be. Leo is kinda deadweight, but he's level 5. Xander might be level 2, I don't remember. I've already used them more that I'd like, but at this point I can't afford not to. It's two more chapters until I can go on a child spree with offspring seals. 

[Shadow Mir]

52 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

Also, Ophelia got vantage, so I can set up that Vengance + Vantage combo once I reclass her into Sorc. Only just thought about that. 

Don't get your hopes up, lest you be disappointed - Vantage/Vengeance is pretty damn awful in this game. And tbf, I dare say the skills themselves are bad even on their own.

As for Heart Sealing Odin, I'm not convinced it's worth it...

Edited August 30, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Mandokarla]

I mean Heart Seals are limited but there aren't a super large number on units I'd use it on. Jakob is an option if F!Corrin to get an early paladin, and you want one Heart Seal for Corrin, but I found that I didn't need a lot of weapons or staves earlygame, so I had the funds to spend on a few seals. All I needed was a Javelin for Effie and all was set on that score for like 10 chapters. I honestly don't see a laundry list of reasons not to HS him, unless you hate his character and just don't like to use him as a result of that. In that case, debating taste in character writing accomplishes nothing (especially in a shitshow work of writing like Fates). 

[MeddlingMage]

Turning Odin into a Samurai really isn't that bad.   I usually do it once he gets Malefic Aura.   Plus if you use the battle or visit rewards, you will get a free Arms Scroll to get him to a D-Rank in Swords and give him a forged Iron Sword +2.   But he doesn't stay there for long.   Usually once he gets Vantage, he either goes back to Dark Mage or he goes to Grandmaster thanks to the Fell Brand.

Depending on what class Corrin is or who Corrin is going to marry, sometimes I turn Corrin into a Dread Fighter first, so Corrin can start using his or her Axes (for Hero, Berserker, Oni Chieftain) or Shuriken/ Dagger (for Master Ninja).   it saves that second Heart Seal for somebody else.

Mozu is another good option for a Heart Seal, if you want a second Archer for chapter 10 and you don't want to try to get Anna.   But my Mozu usually goes to Dread Fighter on Conquest.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

I mean Heart Seals are limited but there aren't a super large number on units I'd use it on. Jakob is an option if F!Corrin to get an early paladin, and you want one Heart Seal for Corrin, but I found that I didn't need a lot of weapons or staves earlygame, so I had the funds to spend on a few seals. All I needed was a Javelin for Effie and all was set on that score for like 10 chapters. I honestly don't see a laundry list of reasons not to HS him, unless you hate his character and just don't like to use him as a result of that. In that case, debating taste in character writing accomplishes nothing (especially in a shitshow work of writing like Fates). 

The issue is not just the limited number of Heart Seals - it's also that IMHO, Samurai is hardly an outstanding class, and the skills are nothing to write home about, either... Well, other than Swordfaire, but it doesn't take much to stand out when you're among skills that are either garbage or unreliable. And said skill doesn't come along until level 15 promoted. And I'd say I've seen worse writing than that of Fates, but that's neither here nor there.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I feel like I need to save the stats of Samurai Odin whenever this conversation comes up.

The short version, since I'm too lazy to rederive them right now, is that Samurai Odin is basically comparable to Selena, except with E rank swords. And Selena's already not that great, so burning a valuable resource to get something comparable to her at best is not impressive in the slightest.

Burning two heart seals gets you something interesting but that's a lot of resources to throw into one unit.

[Shoblongoo]

He can turn out good as a samurai and has more speed then mage Odin. Which he needs.

But samurai Odin has many of the the same problem as mage Odin:

-low bases
-quickly falls behind unless you go out of your way to baby him and feed him kills
-pretty much unusable once he falls behind 

And this is compounded now by starting with E-Rank swords.

I know its frowned upon. But I really have found that the best way to make Odin a good unit is to just give him the ebon wing as soon as he joins and let him go to work as a dark flier.

Its the once class that immediately gives him everything he needs to hit the ground running, while also giving him the growths and the utility to stay relevant through the endgame.

[Koumal8]

23 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The short version, since I'm too lazy to rederive them right now, is that Samurai Odin is basically comparable to Selena, except with E rank swords.

I wouldn't say that: they share a shaky Str stat and an at-times overkill Spd stat but their bulk is very different: Odin has high Hp but subpar def due to being a Samurai (he achieves above average bulk in other classes) while Selena actually has above average def which combined with Sol (and Strong Riposte) makes her an outstanding frontliner and enemy phase unit, while Odin is most certainly a player phase unit (low bulk and Duelist's Blow being a player phase skill). Their roles and stat lines (we might as well take into acconut, for what it's worth, that Selena's Skl is miles behind Odin's, which does sometimes lead to shaky hit rates even when she really shouldn't have them, taking up axes with her is almost a non-option as a Hero) seem pretty different to me, I'm genuinely curious why you feel they're comparable.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Selena does indeed have slightly superior def, though it's generally by around 3 points; not a large gap especially since Odin wins HP, as you noted. She'll occasionally be able to sponge one extra hit. Skill doesn't matter much unless the gap is very large, which it isn't in this case. It's 5 points at promotion (and varies thereafter based on promotion choice) which is 7.5 hit, and on units who use a very accurate weapon type.

So yeah, their stat lines are quite similar in practice and they'll end up playing similar roles, being sword-users with balanced overall stats with a bit of a speed emphasis. You're right that Duelist's Blow is a nice extra player phase perk and Quick Riposte is a nice extra enemy phase perk but neither is a game-changer. (I would regard Duelist's Blow as a game-changer if Odin could achieve 0 hit under it with any regularity, but his speed isn't really good enough for that, and Conquest both lacks a Dual Katana, and has more accurate enemies than Birthright / most other Fire Emblems.)

[SpearOfLies]

The only reason you can want Odin as swordmaster is the pair up bonus and Ophelia with vantage.

So early heart seal isn't really worthy. There isn't nearly any enemies mid-end game which sorc!odin don't do better and he isn't great either.

Aside on fates def > hp. You really need someone who can take multiple hit on enemy phase otherwise is hard to do a better engage against the enemies.

On my current run (conquest lunatic) wyvern lord!xander and darkknight!Leo+1dragonshield can go to kill the boss on wind tribe chapter without nearly any difficulty.

[starburst]

Before Chapter 9 there are three characters who crave for a Heart Seal: Odin, Jakob and Mozu (and if you are playing as male Corrin, there are only two.)

Between Samurai Odin and Archer Mozu, I would say that Archer Mozu is a better asset for your party. But since one can get another Heart Seal at the end of Chapter 9, one can easily use both. It is still before Chapter 10, which is the one chapter where you would like to have two archers, anyway. (I usually have three by then: Archer Mozu + Silas on the left, Niles + Effie on the centre and Anna + Odin on the right.)

However, between Dark Mage Odin and Samurai Odin there is really not much difference gameplay-wise, for even Samurai Odin + Effie would not last long in the front lines, and the Kodachi (his only useful 1-2 range sword option) is not strong enough to kill enemies from the second row. In fact, Dark Mage Odin with Nosferatu + Effie may last longer facing enemies (depending on their speed and resistance); and Dark Mage Odin is better at killing enemies from the second row (specially if he is paired up with Elise or Felicia --both of whom would benefit Ophelia.)

Then again, my party (for the entire game) usually includes three archers (Mozu, Anna and Niles) and two dark mages (Ophelia and Odin), thus I plan and focus on player phases, for none of them would endure an enemy phase on their own (maybe and perhaps Mozu.)

I do not think that levelling-up Dark Mage Odin is such a problem, he gets about three levels on his first recruitment chapter, and three or four chapters later he is at the same (or above) level than the rest of the party. The same could be said about Archer Mozu, but she gets 7-8 levels in her recruitment chapter, and I will always argue that Sniper Mozu is a MVP-nominee on any Conquest run.

Lastly, deciding between Samurai Odin and Mounted Jakob is simple: In any scenario, the latter is a better asset early in the game. (Luckily, I love Felicia and thus never have to choose between those two.)

Edited September 2, 2017 by starburst

[Koumal8]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

I do not think that levelling-up Dark Mage Odin is such a problem, he gets about three levels on his first recruitment chapter, and three or four chapters later he is at the same (or above) level than the rest of the party.

Three levels in his join chapter seems like heavy favoritism to considering he can't ORKO anyone (I'm not even sure he 2HKOs all the enemies on Hard!) and his best use is as a chip dealer, without even considering that in the same chapter you get Niles who could use a couple of levels and is miles ahead of him.

Also wanted to add that even though Samurai!Odin may not have as much competition for one of the early seals as I initially thought depending on your planned team it might be wise to keep just so you don't have to buy one later, or am I the only FE14 player who finds money tight in this game?

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, starburst said:

I do not think that levelling-up Dark Mage Odin is such a problem, he gets about three levels on his first recruitment chapter, and three or four chapters later he is at the same (or above) level than the rest of the party.

I'm gonna have to call BS on this assertion that Odin can get three levels in his join chapter alone - that sounds like a huge stretch without Paragon.

[Agro]

From memory it's quite easily possible as he's at a low level and gets 40-50 EXP per kill, not to mention dual strikes etc. But you have to be feeding him a kill almost every turn. Sometimes there are a few stragglers in the northern area of the map which you can send Odin after as well.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Agro

[starburst]

14 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

Three levels in his join chapter seems like heavy favoritism to considering he can't ORKO anyone (I'm not even sure he 2HKOs all the enemies on Hard!) and his best use is as a chip dealer, without even considering that in the same chapter you get Niles who could use a couple of levels and is miles ahead of him.

 

10 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'm gonna have to call BS on this assertion that Odin can get three levels in his join chapter alone - that sounds like a huge stretch without Paragon.

 

To be honest, I do not remember how many levels Odin usually gets, but I do not think that three levels is far-fetched. I will try to document it on my next play-through. I do know that Archer Mozu gets 7-8 levels because I have played her chapter multiple times in order to maximise her experience.

I 'invest' time and experience on characters whom I like and who would die easily otherwise. For example, I level-up Azura till level 10 on Chapter Five (by singing to Corrin), and Elise till level 14-16 on Chapter Seven (by using three or four staves on unarmed teammates facing the horde of Faceless at a choke point.) These two characters are almost always over-levelled, so that they do not die easily in the more difficult chapters. To give you an idea, I promote Elise before starting Chapter Ten, as soon as her Magic caps (usually by level 17-18.) And right before starting Chapter Fourteen, Songstress Azura is at level 21; Tactician Elise, at 17/3; the rest of the party, at 16-17 (including Corrin.)

In Chapter Eight, I favour Odin precisely because he needs babysitting, just like Azura and Elise. Since the enemy dark mages will always attack the character with weaker Resistance, it is just a matter of positioning Effie or Silas, then heal them a couple of turns to feed experience to Elise and the other healer, and finally hit the dark mages with Odin + Elise/Felicia. When facing Kilma, Odin, Azura and the healers can also get more experience by hitting Kilma and healing Odin right afterwards. This can go on for several turns, for Kilma will recover thanks to Nosferatu and his seat.

Self-healing bosses are also a great way to get weapon ranks. This is exactly how Niles, Anna and Archer Mozu level-up one bow rank when facing Haitaka on Chapter Nine, and how Camilla and Elise level-up one tome rank when facing Hinoka on Chapter Eleven. Azura and the healers are also fed experience in the process.

It is a style, I guess. I could clear various maps faster, using only the stronger characters, but I choose to spread the experience points on the entire party, and I favour some characters at the beginning.

Edited September 3, 2017 by starburst

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

 

 

To be honest, I do not remember how many levels Odin usually gets, but I do not think that three levels is far-fetched. I will try to document it on my next play-through. I do know that Archer Mozu gets 7-8 levels because I have played her chapter multiple times in order to maximise her experience.

I 'invest' time and experience on characters whom I like and who would die easily otherwise. For example, I level-up Azura till level 10 on Chapter Five (by singing to Corrin), and Elise till level 14-16 on Chapter Seven (by using three or four staves on unarmed teammates facing the horde of Faceless at a choke point.) These two characters are almost always over-levelled, so that they do not die easily in the more difficult chapters. To give you an idea, I promote Elise before starting Chapter Ten, as soon as her Magic caps (usually by level 17-18.) And right before starting Chapter Fourteen, Songstress Azura is at level 21; Tactician Elise, at 17/3; the rest of the party, at 16-17 (including Corrin.)

In Chapter Eight, I favour Odin precisely because he needs babysitting, just like Azura and Elise. Since the enemy dark mages will always attack the character with weaker Resistance, it is just a matter of positioning Effie or Silas, then heal them a couple of turns to feed experience to Elise and the other healer, and finally hit the dark mages with Odin + Elise/Felicia. When facing Kilma, Odin, Azura and the healers can also get more experience by hitting Kilma and healing Odin right afterwards. This can go on for several turns, for Kilma will recover thanks to Nosferatu and his seat.

Self-healing bosses are also a great way to get weapon ranks. This is exactly how Niles, Anna and Archer Mozu level-up one bow rank when facing Haitaka on Chapter Nine, and how Camilla and Elise level-up one tome rank when facing Hinoka on Chapter Eleven. Azura and the healers are also fed experience in the process.

It is a style, I guess. I could clear various maps faster, using only the stronger characters, but I choose to spread the experience points on the entire party, and I favour some characters at the beginning.

The problem is, Odin joins in a chapter that encourages rushing, in addition to being best used for chip damage.

I like them too, but I don't feel the need to go that far out of my way for their sake (Strategist Elise by chapter 10? Really??).

See my first point - there's not much room for stalling like that when I need all the help I can get in terms of cash.

Aside from me never being able to recruit Anna that early, Niles's luck is bad enough that he's liable to get instagibbed by Haitaka - that ain't acceptable, by my standards. Also, chapter 11 doesn't have Hinoka getting healed by terrain - she's healed by a Shrine Maiden who only has so many charges on her staff. And personally, I found Camilla better off reclassed to Wyvern Lord pretty much immediately. And I'm not sure that Hinoka would last that long against a promoted Elise that early...

Edited September 3, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia