Who is better Zephiel or Nergal?

[marlon0024]

Helo guys, this is the first time i post on this section, so i hope i dont get some bad points for it.

The question is Who is the better Villian? Is it Zephiel or Nergal? And it is obvious we have to take into account two parts of the characters, Number One, the hardest to beat, the strongest, who has the better stats, the better weapons, witch are objective values, and the other part of their character, the subjective part, who has a better lore and story, who you enjoy the must to fight and defeat and Why.

As for me, i think that Nergal is Harder to beat and has overall better stats and weapons, but on the other hand, Zephiel has a better lore, one can almost side by him, you can understand his pain and its madness, also he is a King against a more simple villain, even if we count the fact that Nergal lost a manakete wife or girlfriend, one never knows.

And as for evidence of my first argument, i provide this video, even if it is in spanish it has closed caps, and has some good arguments on why Nergal is stronger...So lets get started

 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hardest to beat: Zephiel easily. He has no weaknesses (unlike Nergal), sits on a throne (which provides a massive boost to his durability, particularly avoid), and reinforcements which act immediately repeatedly spawn in his room, making the fight with him very dangerous. On the other hand, Nergal sits on a neutral panel and the enemies with him are easily dispatched before engaging him... and he is easily soloed by base Athos with either Aureola or Luna.

Strongest: Narratively Nergal is more powerful, he is supposed to be nearly invincible in plot and requires legendary weaponry to defeat, while Zephiel is merely a normal human who is a skilled fighter.

Better stats: Both have somewhat disappointing stat builds because they're so slow (AS in the low teens), but I'd have to go with Nergal. Mostly, his atk is roughly 10 points higher. It doesn't really matter since Athos has insane res, but if we're talking raw numbers, Nergal comes out ahead.

Better weapons: Both are 1-2 range. Ereshkigal has 5 more might, Ekesachs has 5 more crit. Normally this would be a rout for the higher-might weapon, but on a boss, any crit can be deadly, so I'm more inclined to call this a push.

Better lore and story: I far, far prefer Zephiel. Nergal's motivations require several layers of obscure nonsense to even learn in-game, and when I learned them I wondered why the game went to lengths to keep them a secret. "Dark magic makes you crazy" is not interesting, and the story about losing his family doesn't really help. On the other hand Zephiel's motivations are probably some of the better storytelling in Elibe; we get a fully fleshed out individual for whom childhood trauma directly led to his rational if extreme view that humans are a flawed race and the world would be happier if ruled by the more peaceful dragons instead.

More enjoyable fight: Zephiel is more challenging and I like his boss music better, so I'm going to have to side with him here too.

[Etrurian emperor]

I vastly prefer Nergal. I appreciate Nergal in general but its also that I just don't buy Zephiel's motivation and he's the sort of villain who falls flat if you don't accept his motivation. 

So his daddy didn't love him and wanted to murder him. Was there anyone else who didn't like Zephiel? Its generally implied that the rest of the world was pretty in love with the guy and that Desmond stood alone in his dislike of him. Even when Zephiel gets mad the rest of Bern stays pretty loyal, even after his defeat. There is plenty of evidence for Zephiel to see that Desmond doesn't represent humanity. That he still betrays humanity because a single one of them didn't like him isn't tragic, its Zephiel's own unjustified decision. Also its not like he's the first Fire emblem character with an asshole dad. I never saw Lex go make any claims about how the whole of humanity is trash because his dad was evil and wanted to kill him. 

I do buy Nergal's motivations because he doesn't have them and that's very much the point. I think Nergal's mental state declining so much that he doesn't even recognize his children he done it all for, and that they also don't seem to recognize him either is the more tragic tale. Negal's main flaw is that he lets the main characters live and that's fair enough(though he's hardly the only FE villain to do so) but it also brings a strength. While Zephiel spends almost the whole game in his castle and doesn't know Roy even exists Nergal pretty regularly interacts with the heroes. There is a very personal hostility between Nergal and the heroes that Zephiel doesn't have with Roy. 

Zephiel does have the better design by far and I think he's probably the better boss too. Nergal's power gets so much buildup that its a bit disappointing he's not that hard of a boss. 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

11 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I vastly prefer Nergal. I appreciate Nergal in general but its also that I just don't buy Zephiel's motivation and he's the sort of villain who falls flat if you don't accept his motivation. 

So his daddy didn't love him and wanted to murder him. Was there anyone else who didn't like Zephiel? Its generally implied that the rest of the world was pretty in love with the guy and that Desmond stood alone in his dislike of him. Even when Zephiel gets mad the rest of Bern stays pretty loyal, even after his defeat. There is plenty of evidence for Zephiel to see that Desmond doesn't represent humanity. That he still betrays humanity because a single one of them didn't like him isn't tragic, its Zephiel's own unjustified decision. Also its not like he's the first Fire emblem character with an asshole dad. I never saw Lex go make any claims about how the whole of humanity is trash because his dad was evil and wanted to kill him. 

I do buy Nergal's motivations because he doesn't have them and that's very much the point. I think Nergal's mental state declining so much that he doesn't even recognize his children he done it all for, and that they also don't seem to recognize him either is the more tragic tale. Negal's main flaw is that he lets the main characters live and that's fair enough(though he's hardly the only FE villain to do so) but it also brings a strength. While Zephiel spends almost the whole game in his castle and doesn't know Roy even exists Nergal pretty regularly interacts with the heroes. There is a very personal hostility between Nergal and the heroes that Zephiel doesn't have with Roy. 

Zephiel does have the better design by far and I think he's probably the better boss too. Nergal's power gets so much buildup that its a bit disappointing he's not that hard of a boss. 

 

Lex's dad is evil, but he doesn't poison him to near death and laughing on your face when you are on your deathbed while spending a good deal of his life plotting to kill his son. They DO mention that Zephiel pretty much accepted Desmond for what it is and tolerated him until that moment, despite Desmond's ridiculous decision of naming whoever would be Gunivere's husband as the heir of Bern

 

Although one thing i won't buy about Zephiel is how ridiculously loyal everyone on Bern is to him. FE7 all but told you that the Bern Royal force would commit suicide right there if Zephiel is killed. For a fucking 15 years old. Vaida worships Zephiel so much, she plans to make a hopeless assault to the castle to separate him from his dad.

Literally the only way that make sense is by having Desmond being an unrealistically bad king on top of being trash father. Desmond is without a doubt the single worst father in the entire series, worse than even any incarnation of Garon, but that still seems weird

Edited September 1, 2017 by JSND

[Etrurian emperor]

1 minute ago, JSND said:

 

Lex's dad is evil, but he doesn't poison him to near death and laughing on your face when you are on your deathbed while spending a good deal of his life plotting to kill his son. They DO mention that Zephiel pretty much accepted

 

Although one thing i won't buy about Zephiel is how ridiculously loyal everyone on Bern is to him. FE7 all but told you that the Bern Royal force would commit suicide right there if Zephiel is killed. For a fucking 15 years old. Vaida worships Zephiel so much, she plans to make a hopeless assault to the castle to separate him from his dad.

Literally the only way that make sense is by having Desmond being an unrealistically bad king on top of being trash father. Desmond is without a doubt the single worst father in the entire series, worse than even any incarnation of Garon, but that still seems weird

I think Zephiel may have worked better if his dad was the worse but more popular king. If Zephiel was rejected by the people of Bern because of being half Etrurian or that he proposed much needed but unpopular reforms that made his own people despise him then the amount of people who dislike him grows enough to make his distaste for humanity believable. 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

5 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think Zephiel may have worked better if his dad was the worse but more popular king. If Zephiel was rejected by the people of Bern because of being half Etrurian or that he proposed much needed but unpopular reforms that made his own people despise him then the amount of people who dislike him grows enough to make his distaste for humanity believable. 

I don't really know though

 

Realistically speaking being hated by your parent(s) actually had worse effect than being hated by the general public. Most fiction basically did those kind of things(including Zephiel) simply because thats how it is

Edited September 1, 2017 by JSND

[Interdimensional Observer]

17 hours ago, JSND said:

Although one thing i won't buy about Zephiel is how ridiculously loyal everyone on Bern is to him. FE7 all but told you that the Bern Royal force would commit suicide right there if Zephiel is killed. For a fucking 15 years old. Vaida worships Zephiel so much, she plans to make a hopeless assault to the castle to separate him from his dad.

Agreed. FE7 wanted to show that Zephiel had potential to be a good king, but went a little too far- retrospectively you might as well call it avatar/lord worship.

Nergal is a tragedy, albeit a tragedy that requires an arcane Gaiden chapter to discover. And even then, they leave some holes in Nergal's background. Him being but husk of original self also destroys his agency in his own actions. 

17 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Nergal pretty regularly interacts with the heroes. There is a very personal hostility between Nergal and the heroes that Zephiel doesn't have with Roy. 

Very true. Nergal's constant interacting with the heroes does make him stand out as an FE villain. Unlike say Medeus, Anankos or Ashera. And then there is Ashnard, an oddity in that he interacts with the player a lot via his frequent chats with subordinates in "Nevassa" (aka Melior), but never at all Ike until the final fight. The player establishes a connection with Ashnard which Ike doesn't at all- a dissonance.

 

Staying on topic, I haven't played Binding, but because Nergal is a shell of a former human being who did nothing on his own, but simply acted on the impulses of darkness, I think I have to put Zephiel above him personally. Though I will add that Nergal's original idea- resurrecting his wife via Dark Magic, is proven totally feasible ten seconds after his death when Bramimond does it to Ninian. There is an irony in this.

[Slumber]

Not really huge on either.

Nergal's easier to understand, with him being driven mad over his pursuit of resurrecting his wife, and he effectively loses his mind and soul to the dark arts. He has a sympathetic backstory, we know how unhinged and gone he is, and his actions are an extreme extension of his original goals, just as warped and corrupted as he is. But he does some dumb villain things(Letting the heroes live all the time, even though he could have easily wiped them out any time prior to the final fight), he's a pretty disappointing boss, and the portrayal of his powers is inconsistent as hell.

Zephiel, meanwhile, has no real proper build up. Everyone loves him, except his dad, so he decides humanity's gotta go. I know that the whole "My daddy didn't love me" is a very, very, VERY, VERY common villain(And hero) motivation, especially when trying to go with a sympathetic villain, but most of the time, it's developed a bit better than Zephiel's case. Desmond is so over the top, and Zephiel's response and development is even more over the top. His Gary Stu portrayal in the prequel didn't help much, either. I mean, if FE7 wasn't trying to show us that Zephiel is a tragic character pushed by a bad man, but instead was trying to show us that the men in Bern's Royal family are batshit insane and unreasonable, then mission accomplished? I don't think that's the case, however. But as a boss, he's one of the best "final human" bosses in the series. His boss fight is reasonably tough, and unlike Nergal, he actually lives up to the hype that's been surrounding him the whole game.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Slumber

[marlon0024]

Well, about The Zephiel Lore, we must assume that if he decided to go nuts and bring the "Demon Dragon" back, was not only the fact that their parents were trash, but also, who here had a father that tried to kill you? Many people had an abusive father...and believe me, you might go nuts, back to the topic, i think he also saw that the whole world was rotten, bandits everywhere, war, and it is kinda strange that the god ol Nergal just totally forgot its first goal, he did not bring back its wife, he abandoned his children, and just wanted even more power.

And then again, I think many lvl 20 characters might solo Nergal, but only if you have healers arround and has high RES, but remember the Legendary weapons were Nerfed, a lot, and almost any paladin or general with malte might solo Zephiel, since its defense is not so high

[secondworld]

I don't think people liking Zephiel actually means all that much. According to his dialogue in FE6 he finds human emotions as a whole to be the problem, and states that a world run by the manufactured dragons with no self would be a better state of existence.

[Tenzen12]

I think Nergal has better backstory and characterisation, but well unlike Zephiel he doesn't have charisma speak of. You look on Zephiel and think this guy means business. He might be madman, but he isn't derailed one, he is stoic. Nergal as tragicprovoke more pity as villain rather than respect.

I vote for Zephiel here (even if Nergal is one better villains in franchise).

[henrymidfields]

+1 for Zephiel who managed to conquer a good part of Elibe and be a credible threat, just through charisma, politics, and good old diligence and skill instead of relying on fantastic superpower.

[ping]

Not to dismiss his intrigue to take over Etruria, but Zephiel did use some dragons for his conquest. ;) The player just doesn't face them before the Isles arc.

[TGenzo]

Tough question. I'll split my opinion into character and  game play.

In terms of character , both of them have the same personality change. From caring and kind-hearted to tyrants hungry with greed. Nergal was a father who always looks out for his children. He studied dark magic to revive his deceased wife who he loved very much but was consumed by the pure cruelty of dark arts. He becomes psychotic by corruption , not by his will. Zephiel was an innocent kid until his father tried to kill him then he got emo and wants to rule the continent because he thinks he is right . which is prettty stupid. Obviously Nergal wins here.

Next is game play , Nergal is only weak if you properly train your units and give them the legendary weapons , not to mention he uses magic tomes and it is a powerful one too(not as good as Luna).Typically, you have to use the 3 lords and Athos to kill him or else if you use your typical physical units , they will die due to lack of resistance. Zephiel , however ,  stands a good chance against your legendary weapons (well maybe not the magic tomes). That is until you use the sealed sword , the damn thing has 20 might and it chips away about 50% percent of his health in one hit. Also with the weapons decent crit stat , you THINK he is going to survive? Once again , Nergal wins.

[edgelordweeaboo]

zephiel is harder to beat and he's really a better written villain. i do really like nergal though. he's cool and i like his design

[Shadow Mir]

I personally think Nergal was better done - I find it kinda hard to consider Zephiel better written. An asshole parent is one thing, but frankly, it doesn't really do it for me considering that if FE7 was any indication, pretty much everyone else seemed to like him, meaning that Zephiel ultimately falls flat imho.

[thedman975]

Zephiel's design and animation is way better but his motivations make no sense. "My father tried to kill me and even though my entire country loves me and would literally die for me all people are evil and the entire continent's population should be wiped out and dragons should be brought back." what. Zephiel seems better on the surface but actually its actually Nergal whose motivation of wanting to resurrect his wife but going crazy trying is unoriginal but at least makes some sense. And his final battle dialogue is so much better. 

[Jotari]

I wouldn't undersell Zephiel's backstory. His daddy wasn't just mean to him. He straight up tried to murder him (multiple times). And not because they were enemies or he was runing Desmond's plans or anything. It was just straight up spite and jealosy. Imagine the one person you really looked up to and wanted to make you proud legitmately tried to kill you. That cuts deep. And not just emotionally, the assassination attempt left Zephiel in writhering pain for days. He barely pulled through. Now how he went from that, to wanting to see the destruction of humanity, probably could have done with some more development, but it is a pretty bleak starting point.

As for Nergal, his motivation is so all over the place, even he doesn't know what he's doing. And trickle feeding us his backstory via a load of needlessly hard to get bonus chapters isn't a good way of selling the character.

Also, no poll?

[Shadow Mir]

On 12/30/2017 at 5:07 PM, Jotari said:

I wouldn't undersell Zephiel's backstory. His daddy wasn't just mean to him. He straight up tried to murder him (multiple times). And not because they were enemies or he was runing Desmond's plans or anything. It was just straight up spite and jealosy. Imagine the one person you really looked up to and wanted to make you proud legitmately tried to kill you. That cuts deep. And not just emotionally, the assassination attempt left Zephiel in writhering pain for days. He barely pulled through. Now how he went from that, to wanting to see the destruction of humanity, probably could have done with some more development, but it is a pretty bleak starting point.

As for Nergal, his motivation is so all over the place, even he doesn't know what he's doing. And trickle feeding us his backstory via a load of needlessly hard to get bonus chapters isn't a good way of selling the character.

Also, no poll?

But Zephiel still falls flat imo - he's judging humanity based on his father being a complete asshole, which makes little sense, and even less when you consider that his portrayal in Blazing Blade was almost Gary Stu-esque. Basically, I've seen the misanthrope villain type done better, both in Fire Emblem and elsewhere.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

But Zephiel still falls flat imo - he's judging humanity based on his father being a complete asshole, which makes little sense, and even less when you consider that his portrayal in Blazing Blade was almost Gary Stu-esque. Basically, I've seen the misanthrope villain type done better, both in Fire Emblem and elsewhere.

His Gary Stuness is part of why he became a misanthrope. He was the perfect prince. He did everything right and for his troubles he found himself in agonizing pain, inflicted by the person he loved and wanted to please most. Should he judge the entirety of humanity based on his father's deeds? Of course not, that's what makes him a villain. He's too stupid to realize he's loved by the people that really matter and is stuck viewing the world from a very bleak viewpoint. I find the personal story is better than the typical "I've seen a bunch of people die and had a horrible life, so everyone should just die" backstory of most misanthropic villains (either that or is just "blarg, I'm crazy, deal with it"). Generally, I find misanthropic villains to be weak in general. As it's a pretty hard sell that someone would go to all that trouble if they hate existence so much, when they could just remove themselves from the equation entirely via suicide (as scathing and harsh as that may sound). Zephiel's motivations are slightly overblown and contrived, forced into the plot by Fire Emblem's love of dragons (and really they don't even make that much sense, since the dragons aren't emotionless beings, that's only the war dragons). But there is more to a character than just the end goal. I think Zephiel's pretty solid in his backstory, how he interacts with other characters, his design and music. I think they do tragic backstory right with him. You feel sorry for the kid he was, not the man he's become. The game harbors no delusions that he can be redeemed and, unlike Hardin, the guy he was based off, Zephiel never shows any remorse or guilt. His chapter title is The Neverending Dream, his quote is "You shall not bar my path!" (side note, shame he didn't have any battle quotes beyond that, you'd think they'd give him something to say to Roy). He's never going to give up, never going to change. Having a tragic backstory doesn't excuse villainy, that's what the game goes out to prove. At least how I interpret it. Failing all that, his sprites and music rock.

[Shadow Mir]

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

His Gary Stuness is part of why he became a misanthrope. He was the perfect prince. He did everything right and for his troubles he found himself in agonizing pain, inflicted by the person he loved and wanted to please most. Should he judge the entirety of humanity based on his father's deeds? Of course not, that's what makes him a villain. He's too stupid to realize he's loved by the people that really matter and is stuck viewing the world from a very bleak viewpoint. I find the personal story is better than the typical "I've seen a bunch of people die and had a horrible life, so everyone should just die" backstory of most misanthropic villains (either that or is just "blarg, I'm crazy, deal with it"). Generally, I find misanthropic villains to be weak in general. As it's a pretty hard sell that someone would go to all that trouble if they hate existence so much, when they could just remove themselves from the equation entirely via suicide (as scathing and harsh as that may sound). Zephiel's motivations are slightly overblown and contrived, forced into the plot by Fire Emblem's love of dragons (and really they don't even make that much sense, since the dragons aren't emotionless beings, that's only the war dragons). But there is more to a character than just the end goal. I think Zephiel's pretty solid in his backstory, how he interacts with other characters, his design and music. I think they do tragic backstory right with him. You feel sorry for the kid he was, not the man he's become. The game harbors no delusions that he can be redeemed and, unlike Hardin, the guy he was based off, Zephiel never shows any remorse or guilt. His chapter title is The Neverending Dream, his quote is "You shall not bar my path!" (side note, shame he didn't have any battle quotes beyond that, you'd think they'd give him something to say to Roy). He's never going to give up, never going to change. Having a tragic backstory doesn't excuse villainy, that's what the game goes out to prove. At least how I interpret it. Failing all that, his sprites and music rock.

The backstory card is about all he has, and it just ain't enough for me. I felt Sephiran from Radiant Dawn was done far better (and more to the point, actually worked) because he had legitimate reasons for what he was doing. As stated earlier, Zephiel wasn't the first FE character with an asshole dad. Anyway, I think Nergal was the best GBA villain, if only because he has little competition (Lyon is an utter joke, and Zephiel's little better).

Edited January 3, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia