fe7 FE7 HNM auction #3, A Marcus Divided

JudgeWargrave · February 10, 2018

@amg Nice job. You forgot to include Ch32, which from the image you posted was 5 turns so 180 turns total. Did Karel manage to save any turns?

Edited February 10, 2018 by JudgeWargrave

amg · February 11, 2018

Fixed, also I don't remember but it was nice having another unit and he did have his contributions killing enemies. I don't think I could've 3 turned Final I with the strategy I used without having Karel since I needed 2 unoccupied units to move Nils around.

JudgeWargrave · February 12, 2018

Last four Marcusless chapters done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rSqVE_81Rc&index=9&list=PLtOZhNAJqDYnp2KXzJpHJokR6aRm4haw4

Ch17x The Port of Badon, 3/54 turns

Bartre gets his promotion at level 13, Rip 86 exp. Matt and Bartre clear most of the enemies T1EP, then the team cleans up T2PP while Sain runs forward. T3 I get the Sleep, Short Bow, and Devil Axe houses, Hector kills Damian and reaches level 20, and Sain talks to Fargus.

Ch18 Pirate Ship, 3/57 turns

Sain, Bartre and Matt head for the boss, Hector helps Wil get exp, and Marcus shops. Not sure how many items I need, I probably have more than enough. Matthew steals the Speedwings T3 while Bartre hits the boss to ensure he dies T3EP. I pick up a Longsword that will be handy later.

Ch19 The Dread Isle, 5/62

Now our team is up to six with Dart. He hangs around the north guarding Merlinus, while Florina helps by giving him some items and revealing an enemy T1. Then she recruits Fiora for her items after Fiora kills an enemy T3OP. Everyone else just heads south with Sain picking up Hector so he can damage Uhai and let Sain get the kill, reaching level 10 just in time. Hector breaks a snag and Bartre blocks the path to divert the middle right enemies from going for Merlinus.

Ch19x Imprisoner of Magic, 4/66

Sain's promotion really was in the nick of time, as he uses his new E axe rank, C sword rank, and of course his 8 move and improved stats to get the 4 turn. Wil killed two mages and got the Goddess Icon. Matthew stood on a mountain and 1HKO'd the axereaver pegasi. Bartre and Dart cleared the way for Sain, who stopped just short of the forts and Aion's range T2PP while holding Hector and an Iron Axe, forcing the knights off their forts and to their deaths T2EP. Sain drops Hector at the edge of the anti-magic field T3PP so that the mages must leave the field to attack him, clearing the path to the gate. Sain uses the Killing Edge to kill Aion T4PP.

Next up, I finally get Marcus!

Edited February 12, 2018 by JudgeWargrave

Sturm · February 13, 2018

Did up to Chapter 16 over the weekend:

Chapter 11: Another Journey.

Turns - 6/6, 48.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Break wall, go west. Matt hit the wall at the end to burn an RN for Hector's level up. I tried going South just to see if it would work because more experience and Red Gem but it doesn't, unless Hector Hand Axe crits the Knight or something stupid like that.


Unit     Class   Level   HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord    03.09   21  09  04  06  03  09  01   C Axes

Chapter 12: Birds of a Feather.

Turns - 4/10, 52.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Hector went north, Oswin centre while Eliwood just waited so he wouldn't attract the Archers, he ended up killing two Bandits. The most difficult thing about this map was all the low hit rates for Oswin and Hector, so I had to play about with some various strategies to get everything to connect. Hector used the Wolf Beil mostly for higher hit, he had to hit one Hand Axe attack though so that an Archer would go for Oswin rather than chase Hector into the Forest. Eventually I managed to find a method that got everything to connect and even got pretty great level ups for Hector and Eliwood but Oswin decided to miss the very last attack on the entire map. I thought I could fix it by having Marcus block the Forest so that the Archer would have to attack from the Plains but Oswin still missed (~80 displayed hit) so I just had Lowen burn an RN that was the best I could do.

Also on a different note the AI is really weird about going to Forts to heal even though Oswin wasn't blocking the Fort the enemies still suicided, however if Hector attacked the Boss from the North rather than the West then the enemies would retreat to heal and the same thing happened if no one blocked the southern Fort, I have no idea.


Unit     Class   Level   HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord    05.94   23  10  05  08  03  11  02   C Axes
Eliwood  Lord    02.01   18  06  06  08  07  06  01   C Swords
Oswin    Knight  10.10   29  13  09  06  03  13  03   B Lances

Chapter 13: In Search of Truth

Turns - 6/16, 58.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

I thought that I could five turn this thanks to my units having good starting positions. Eliwood is exactly able to attack the boss on turn five if he goes across the river at the point it joins the mountain, meanwhile Oswin can OHKO the snag on turn one, pick up Hector and then drop him on the one wide river tile near Merlinus' village on turn three thereby saving him the movement cost of the River and this space is exactly 10 tiles away from the gate. So Eliwood would kill the boss and Hector would Seize, I did a quick calculation in my head and figured he would be able to kill with a hit plus crit. So I did a quick test run to see that there's no obvious problems like getting blocked, and there's not, so great I have Eliwood attack the boss... and he does 3x2 damage, so I'm super confused thinking no he should do 7x2. So I'm checking the bosses defence, the gate bonus, Eliwood's strength, the Rapier's might etc. and I can't work out what's wrong and then I remembered that effective damage is only double and not triple might that I had been thinking so Eliwood wouldn't kill even with back to back crits..., oh well.

So the actual strategy was basically the same except Hector killed the Boss and Eliwood just stayed around the start and got experience, Marcus carried Matthew to talk to Guy and Lowen sold Serra's Staff and Rebecca's bow for an Extra Javelin.

I don't know how everyone else feels but I think effective damage being double is much inferior to triple damage, it feels so underwhelming especially with things like the Rapier that's already at WTD most of the time. I believe that it's triple damage as normal in the Japanese version and I would honestly advocate using a patch with triple effective damage which I imagine would be very easy to create. I think the main thing people would say against this is that the Wolf Beil would be far too good but really Hector tends to OHKO everything that it's effective against anyway, doing 50 damage to a 25 HP Cavalier is the same as doing 30 at the end of the day. I think on the plus side it would make bow users including Warriors actually be useful against fliers and it would also slightly nerf the Paladins and Fliers who tend to just laugh at Bows/Horseslayers with double effective damage, I think over all it would be better, ~~and I'm not just saying this because I'm salty~~.


Unit     Class   Level   HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord    07.55   25  11  07  09  03  12  02   C Axes
Eliwood  Lord    04.00   20  08  08  09  08  06  02   C Swords
Oswin    Knight  10.10   29  13  09  06  03  13  03   B Lances

Chapter 13x: The Peddler Merlinus.

Turns - 6/22, 64.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

I really need to save every turn I can I feel and I just barely managed to get a turn six Enemy Phase rout here with a bit of perseverance. Oswin took the south-east area weakening one enemy at a time and then finishing them on Player Phase, Lowen helped out by trading his weapon around when needed. Hector weakened the Snag at the start so the Myrmidon could break the Snag and the Archer would suicide on Hector's Hand Axe while Eliwood killed the Archer and then Lowen trade equipped him with the Killing Edge. Eliwood crit both the Mercenary and the Myrmidon which was probably important. Then they went north together and Eliwood used a Torch so that Hector could OHKO another Myrmidon with the Wolf Beil. They then killed a Nomad each with Eliwood baiting the Boss, Marcus traded him back to an Iron Sword as the Boss would die to Iron Sword plus two Rapier hits but if he attacked with the Rapier first he would retreat and heal. Hector went to the Village to clean up over there and Eliwood finished the Boss area reinforcements. Hector got the Village on turn seven.


Unit     Class   Level   HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord    09.84   27  13  09  09  03  13  03   B Axes
Eliwood  Lord    07.95   23  10  10  11  09  09  02   B Swords
Oswin    Knight  11.17   30  14  10  07  03  13  03   B Lances

Chapter 14: False Friends.

Turns - 5/27, 69.21 with Handicap.

Spoiler

This one was pretty much make or break as to whether I could pull all of the furthest units before the rain started otherwise it would have probably been an 8 turn, thankfully Eliwood is the greatest and he just went west and killed everything, he even ORKO'd Erik, Marcus would be proud. Just to top it off he got a perfect level and now he's doubling Myrmidons and getting tinked by stuff, if only I could promote him now...Hector went for the Pirates and Oswin tried to reach the northern Village but failed. Serra recruited Erk to auto recruit Priscilla for Raven.


Unit     Class   Level   HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord    11.09   29  14  10  11  03  15  04   B Axes
Eliwood  Lord    10.94   26  12  13  13  11  11  04   A Swords
Oswin    Knight  12.13   31  15  11  08  03  14  04   B Lances

Chapter 15: Talon's Alight.

Turns - 2/29, 71.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Hector killed the Mage and Mercenary, Eliwood killed the Soldiers and Archer and Oswin killed enemies though the wall and also lured the boss. I couldn't kill both the Archer and the Thief on turn two but I instead tricked the thief into fleeing by using my undrafted units to block the route to all the doors so he fled, thus enabling a two turn. Oswin doubled the boss because he was weighed down by the Longbow... whatever I'll take it. Seriously in this guy's portrait he looks pretty muscular and heavily built but he has 7 con is he three feet tall or something? Built supports after, Eliwood and Hector reached C.


Unit     Class   Level   HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord    11.57   29  14  10  11  03  15  04   B Axes
Eliwood  Lord    11.92   27  13  13  13  11  11  04   A Swords
Oswin    Knight  13.30   32  16  11  08  03  14  04   B Lances

Chapter 16: Noble Lady of Caelin.

Turns - 6/35, 77.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Oswin rescued Hector and dropped him on the mountain to save a turn and Eliwood ran for the Heavy Spear village. Meanwhile Lyn's scrub brigade fought their way through to meet up with Hector and Kent and Sain were able to drop him forward a few spaces so he could engage the boss a turn earlier, Wil and Kent died as a result but they saved a turn so they died happy. Lyn got the Horseslayer and Florina flew across the map to go shopping, just bought some of everything really and a bunch of Door Keys. Oswin was one move short of reaching the Red Gem!Village.


Unit     Class   Level   HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord    12.61   30  15  10  12  04  16  04   B Axes
Eliwood  Lord    13.18   29  14  15  14  13  11  04   A Swords
Oswin    Knight  13.88   32  16  11  08  03  14  04   B Lances

Sturm · February 13, 2018

On 09/02/2018 at 12:44 AM, athena_57 said:

Yeah, I really like Canas, Erk just always disappoints me, and it really worked out, looking at that big magic difference between them. Also due to the fight over exp you mentioned, Lowen, Kent and Florina sucked up most of it, which was amplified by my massive Marcus abuse, Canas was closer to promotion when he joined, which was the deciding factor for me.

Yeah, that makes sense, I think actually with Marcus being available until chapter 19x you probably have to be a bit more careful not to let him run off with all of the experience and leaving the rest of your team too weak. Lowen is probably OK as he can get the experience he needs but I can see if you don't have good units to pick up the slack when Marcus leaves you might hit a wall if you're not careful.

On 09/02/2018 at 2:29 AM, JudgeWargrave said:

Sturm The price calculation is a modified version of a second price auction, designed such that overbidding or underbidding the value you truly give the unit is strategically dominated in a game-theoretic sense by bidding your true value. The price is a weighted average of the price of the unit owner and the next lowest price, specifically [P1 + (n-1)P2]/n where n is the number of players. In the rare case that the lowest bid is assigned the unit due to team size balancing or promo class & chapter gap smoothing, generate the price as if the next higher bid had won (didn't happen in this case).

The posts starting here give some details into how this was arrived upon. This is what was used in the previous FE7 auction.

Ah, I see, so basically it's designed so that it's disadvantageous to put all your eggs in one basket so to speak? I was actually wondering about what the best method for bidding was but I basically did that bid my 'true value', my method was I thought about how much I should give Florina (the most expensive unit) and then gave everyone else bids relative to how I thought they compared to her.

On 09/02/2018 at 2:29 AM, JudgeWargrave said:

As for redundancy, the promo class and chapter gap balancing were a work in progress I added this time in an attempt to reduce that. The Rebecca<>Sain swap happened because I had two Orion's Bolt users and the swap did not conflict with the values Athena and I gave too much. The Matthew<>Serra trade was similarly because amg had two Fell Contract users. Although that conflicted with our bids more, it fixed an even bigger issue and thus managed to get over the arbitrary threshold. There isn't currently any handling for units that are simply of the same class but do not compete for promotional items, e.g. Pent and Erk, nor for various relevant categories like "able to carry promoted Hector". For now I just wanted to avoid the issues of delaying unit promotions and not having any earlygame units.

The other trades happened simply because they matched the bids better; the initial assignment doesn't guarantee minimal dissatisfaction (within the parameters of equal team size), so brute force swaps are used, although in practice only a few seem to be needed.

I think this is a good idea to have some level of balancing but I think too much is obviously going to make the teams homogeneous. Probably weighing things so that Orion's Bolt and Fell Contract user's are likely to be split is a good thing but Guiding Ring and Knight's Crest users should probably be weighed less so you'd have to have maybe 3 or 4 of one before it was likely to rearrange, this is probably already the case to an extent?

118 turns, so I need to complete the game in 133 or less with my Handicap, yeah that's going to be tough to beat and I'm already 5 turns down. amg's turn count is better than I thought it would be, nice job! you could have used Marcus and taken the penalty in some of the earlier maps, not sure if you considered that, might have left your other units too weak though.

JudgeWargrave · February 13, 2018

Thanks for the update Sturm, now that 4 of use have started I think it's worthwhile to actually post the in-progress standings graph.

Spoiler

There are a few chapters marked here that I haven't posted yet, I want to finish the desert first. I actually figured out how the secondary rng works beyond the simple reset trick, not that it has much practical value since the only thing its good for is getting the desert items.

1 hour ago, Sturm said:

Chapter 14: False Friends.

Turns - 5

Dang, the mere fact that Eliwood can reposition and Hector can't saved you a turn there relative to me. Why won't you move in preparations Hector?

1 hour ago, Sturm said:

I think effective damage being double is much inferior to triple damage, it feels so underwhelming

Yes this has also been quite annoying for me trying to kill stuff with the Horseslayer and not 1HKOing, as well as Wil not killing wyverns.

1 hour ago, Sturm said:

Chapter 15: Talon's Alight.

Turns - 2

Oswin's speed being greater than Bartre enables him to 1 round the boss, preventing the T2EP end of turn reinforcements. Bartre, why you so slow? I'll have to remember the getting the thief to flee trick, that was cool.

1 hour ago, Sturm said:

Chapter 16: Noble Lady of Caelin.

Turns - 6

Ah, I should have actually made use of Kent and Lyn, I didn't think about them getting north in time to help. Actually I didn't think about them at all, having Sain and Wil kinda made me forget that all four are free for that chapter.

41 minutes ago, Sturm said:

basically it's designed so that it's disadvantageous to put all your eggs in one basket so to speak?

Not necessarily, it's designed such that there is no incentive to bid more or less than what you think the unit is worth. Assuming your valuation is accurate, you cannot gain an expected advantage by deviating unless you also know the others' bids. You don't really have a limited number of eggs to worry about, nor do you lose eggs by putting them in a basket you don't win. It's not impossible that allocating a very large number of turns towards very few units could theoretically be correct.

43 minutes ago, Sturm said:

Probably weighing things so that Orion's Bolt and Fell Contract user's are likely to be split is a good thing but Guiding Ring and Knight's Crest users should probably be weighed less

The weighting is achieved because the system strives to minimize the sum of squares of unit promo classes, normalized for each class. So having 2 Fell Contract users one one team is worth (2/2)^2 = 1, whereas on separate teams the sum of squares is 2*(1/2)^2 = 1/2, thus drastically reducing the SoS. For Orion's Bolt the difference is smaller, only 2/9, and for the six Guiding Ring units the effect is smallest of all: splitting 2 from one team across two teams only reduces the SoS by 1/18. The same method is used for chapter join time, normalized such that the largest possible recruitment gap is 1.

JudgeWargrave · February 14, 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozh4js2Ylx8&index=13&list=PLtOZhNAJqDYnp2KXzJpHJokR6aRm4haw4

Spoiler

Ch20 Dragon's Gate, 4/70 turns

Now that Marcus is here things get a lot easier. Sain charges up and clears out the sub-boss, Bartre and Marcus move Matthew forward so he can get at least one chest (Blue Gem, I'll get another Luna), and Dart gets the Brave Bow chest. Sain damages Darin T3EP, Marcus finishes him with a Hammer T4PP before Hector seizes. Bye Legault.

Ch21 New Resolve, 2/72 turns

Having two Paladins helps massively here. Dart gets a round of arena in after choosing the right opponent. Unfortunately no time to reach the far houses.

Ch22 Kinship's Bond, 3/75 turns

Heath and Rath are recruited for items, and Heath has an important job next chapter. Ninian and Marcus accelerate Sain down to kill Eubans with a Halberd. Dart and Wil get their last unpromoted level ups. No time to get a chest, but Matt steals a lockpick cuz funds.

Ch23 Living Legend, 3/78 turns

Wil promotes in prep and Dart on T1 to get extra movement; they need to make a safe spot for Florina and Heath.

So technically, undrafted units are allowed to pick up and drop NPCs, which seems like a stupid rule when looking at this. The only NPC they really might need to pick up for the player is Merlinus in 13x. Next time I think the rules on what they can do should be more strict. Trade-equipping items for drafted units also seems like something they shouldn't do. Shopping is another one, although it's more convenient than anything, kinda like Merlinus being free.

Ch23x Genesis, skipped

As if I could get this chapter even if I didn't airlift Hawkeye.

Edited February 16, 2018 by JudgeWargrave

JudgeWargrave · February 16, 2018

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trYy-Fx5yTs&index=17&t=0s&list=PLtOZhNAJqDYnp2KXzJpHJokR6aRm4haw4

Ch24 Four-Fanged Offense, 1/79 turns

I actually dislike this chapter as you have no real options, just set up Lloyd's suicide. At least it doesn't waste your time like 26 though.

Ch25 Crazed Beast, 5/84 turns

Thankfully Dart can carry Wil over the peaks and they can reach the Bishop fort on T5. The other forts are no problem to get by T5, so everyone else just gets exp. Ninian uses up some ring charges to get 10 extra exp each time.

Ch26 Unfulfilled Heart, 11/95 turns

Last time I got the Vaida kill with Louise, but Wil wasn't really up to the job so Dart had to do it with a crit. I learned that ballista don't give any weapon exp, which was disappointing. Stole the Knight's Crest because why not, got Hammerne which might go into Nino's staff rank, acquired Luna, and bought Killer weapons.

Ch27 Pale Flower of Darkness, 6/101 turns

Bartre went into the Sniper room, Marcus to the General room, Dart to the Hero room, Matthew to the chest room, Hector to the Warrior room, and Sain&Wil to Jerme. Bartre took a Short Bow to work on bow rank; reaching B rank would be nice as Wil gets slowed down 5 by the Brave Bow, and Bartre has much better strength to benefit from attacking twice. At >=27 strength and >=17 speed, he will be able to 1 round Nergal with a Filla's Might boost, so that might be a funny thing to aim for.

Edited February 16, 2018 by JudgeWargrave

amg · February 16, 2018

Since I have Lunar New Year off and I have nothing else to do during the weekend, I decided to redo my draft and see where I can save turns. I have limited flexibility due to having mostly sword locked units, bad early game and having only one mount that I get during the midgame. However, I could probably save turns by using Marcus, even with the 4 turn penalty, in the early chapters and I also could improve the late game chapters a bit, most notably the Rout and Defend chapters.

Chapter 11 6/6 turns

Standard, nothing changed.

Chapter 12 5/11

Nothing changed from the previous drafts. My undrafted units trade weapons so they can't do anything in 13x. In the first draft, I did this in C13.

Chapter 13 7+4/22

I decided to use Marcus here and take the 4 turn penalty. Hector breaks 1st snag on turn 2. Marcus breaks 2nd snag on turn 3. Turn 4 Serra visits Merlinus and Marcus kills the Brigand following us, wasting turns the 1st draft. I don't bother killing the Archer behind us because with Marcus I can move my undrafted units fast enough without harm, also saving turns compared to the 1st draft. By turn 6, Hector can Hand Axe the boss. On turn 7, Marcus kills the boss, Matthew recruits Guy, Serra heals him and gives him an Iron Sword, Guy crits someone for EXP, and Hector seizes. I save 3 turns here.

Chapter 13x 7/29

In my first draft, I think I had Hector defend the middle and Guy defend the bottom right. This time I let Guy defend the middle and Hector gets the bottom right. Guy gained around two extra levels this way and Hector lost a couple of levels. Of course, putting exp into Guy is more important since his unpromoted life ends soon.

Chapter 14 4+4/37

I use Marcus again. On turn 1 Marcus takes Hector to the far left killing everything in his path. Guy kills the 2 soldiers on the right. On turn 2, Marcus drops Hector. By turn 3, Hector kills Erik and Marcus kills a Nomad and puts himself in position to be attacked by the Cavalier in the bottom left. On turn 4, Hector goes North to kill Brigands and Marcus puts himself in range of the bottom Pirate and Cavalier. I win on turn 4 enemy phase. I don't shop this time around. I save another 3 turns here.

Chapter 15 7/44

Nothing has changed. Hector stays in the throne room. Guy goes south and kills enemies.

Chapter 16 8/52

Nothing has changed. There are mountains so no point in bringing Marcus. Hector goes towards the boss. Guy goes to the house on the left. Lyn goes to the house near the bottom. I think I put more exp into Guy this time around compared to my 1st draft.

Chapter 17 7+4/63

I use Marcus here. Turn 1, Guy kills the closest sword guy so Hector can use his 5 move and kill the knight. For the rest of the chapter, Guy goes to the left and clears the enemies so Matthew can get him a Hero Crest. Lyn kills a Nomad blocking Marcus but besides that Lyn gets left behind pretty quickly. She crits Raven during the chapter. On turn 4, Marcus rescues Hector and by turn 6 Marcus drops Hector 2 spaces away from the throne. Marcus kills the boss and Hector seizes on turn 7. Guy still promoted at level 15 since the lost exp from C13 and C14 got regained in C13x and C16. I save a turn here. Most importantly, Merlinus doesn't die this time. Last of the Marcus chapters. Thanks for saving 6 turns.

Chapter 17x 3/66

Same as the 1st draft. Guy goes straight to Fargus. Lyn and Hector kill the Mage and Archer in the way.

Chapter 18 3/69

Same as 1st draft. Guy goes straight to the boss.

Chapter 19 6/75

Same as 1st draft. Guy goes straight to Uhai.

Chapter 19x 6/81

Same as 1st draft. Guy clears the way for Hector.

Chapter 20 6/87

I tried 5 turning this but the enemies block the narrow door path and Legault isn't in a position to be recruited by turn 5. Same as 1st draft. Lyn kills the boss by turn 5 and recruits Legault on turn 6. Legault steals Member Card and Hector seizes.

Chapter 21 2/89

I save a turn here due to critting Oleg with Hector's Hand Axe. On turn 1 I dance Hector and rescue drop Ninian ahead with Guy and Legault. I dance Hector on the 2nd turn as well. I skip the EWhip village by doing this. (7)

Chapter 22 5/94

I don't think I can 4 turn this due to Hector's and Lyn's bad starting positions. Same as 1st draft.

Chapter 23 5/99

This being a 5 turn all depends on Pent's combat.

Chapter 24 2/101

Same as 1st draft. Ninian dances Guy turn 1 and Guy kills Lloyd on turn 2.

Chapter 25 9/110

The EWhip village gets destroyed by pirates before Farina appears and I skipped the one in C21. Therefore I would have to wait until C28 to promote Farina but that should not cost any turns. Guy and Lyn go to the bottom left and Legault goes to the top left and seize the gates there. Hector waits for Farina to appear and Farina seizes the top right gate on turn 9. Since I have been grinding Serra so much more compared to my 1st draft, Serra promoted during this chapter gained 3 more levels.

Chapter 26 11/121

Same as 1st draft besides the fact I actually remembered to promote Lyn here.

Chapter 27 10/131

Same as 1st draft. I get Karel.

Chapter 28 9/140

Everyone but Legault goes to the right. Farina promotes. Ninian gets boots. I kill all enemies by turn 9, the last ones to die includes a Thief with the Boots and 4 magic users surrounding Jaffar. I save a turn here. (8)

Chapter 28x Free/140

Farming chapter. Farina reaches C swords and Jaffar kills Sonia. Legault promotes. I seize by turn 18 since there's nothing else to kill or get by then.

Chapter 29 7/147

I improved my turn count by activating all of the reinforcement zones in the first turn. Farina, with the help of Ninian, triggers the farthest zone and then goes to the Hammerne village. Hector stays behind and kills some wyverns. Guy goes to the bottom left and kills some myrmidons. Legault kills the Nomads and Cavaliers on the top right. Everyone else goes through the middle. Of course, Jaffar kills Linus. I kill every enemy by turn 7. I save 3 turns here. (11)

Chapter 30 4/151

Same as 1st draft. Brave Axe Hector easily kills Kaim over turn 3 PP and EP.

Chapter 31 3/154

Same as 1st draft.

Chapter 31x 5/159

Just shopping. Legault and Hector get some turns in the Arena.

Chapter 32 5/164

I don't think I can 4 turn due to Hector's bad starting position. Even then, only Farina can reach Limstella in time and would need 4 Brave Lance crits to kill her and I wouldn't get Renault. I just 5 turn just like my 1st draft. I Hammerne'd my Warp on the last turn because I had nothing else to do. Jaffar kills Limstella.

Chapter 32x 1/165

Since I Hammerne'd last chapter I can have Nils Thor's Ire Guy for more crit and Serra warps Guy for the turn 1 clear.

Final Part I 3/168

I used a strategy similar to the 1st draft. However, this one was more reliable since the 1st draft strategy required both Serra and Renault to crit the Generals on the middle right. This time I gave Farina the Heavy Spear to use against them. With better positioning of Nils, Jaffar did not need to rescue drop him and he kills Uhai turn 2. Farina kills Darin and Renault kills the General next to him. Otherwise, everything stayed the same.

Final Part II 1/169

Lyn and Hector attack the Fire Dragon. Athos uses Luna twice thanks to Nils and deals the final blow.

Final Turn Count: 169, 182.36 with handicap. I saved 11 more turns. I don't think I can improve this turn count any further. This is the best I could do with an army of walking sword users.

Edited February 17, 2018 by amg
I actually finished the draft.

amg · February 17, 2018

Sorry for the double post but I have trouble editing in the turn count pictures. Also, bump I guess since I redid my entire draft and edited the post above.

Turn counts given at the end:

Spoiler

The 23 turns saved come from C13 (3 + 4), C14 (2 + 4), C17 (1 + 4), C21 (1), C28x (1 (Free)), C29 (3). I killed all enemies a turn earlier on C28 BBD but it doesn't show here.

Edited February 17, 2018 by amg

Athena_57 · February 17, 2018

@amg Damn, that's some dedication and a bunch of saved turns, nice!

Sturm · February 19, 2018

OK, time for some more chapters:

Chapter 17: Whereabouts Unknown.

Turns - 10/45, 87.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Basically Hector just full moved every turn through Castle Caelin with Eliwood and Oswin helping to clear his way a few times. Oswin cleared the southern Chest Room area so Matthew could get the Hero Crest and then went back to deal with some reinforcements while Eliwood went to the northern Chest Room after Raven was recruited. I deployed Florina, Sain, Lowen and Marcus so I could rescue Matthew all the way up to get the Knight Crest so that Eliwood was free to kill the Thief after he had taken the Silver Sword.


Unit     Class     Level   HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord      15.44   33  18  12  14  04  16  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord      16.15   32  17  16  17  15  11  07   A Swords
Oswin    Knight    15.81   33  17  11  10  04  15  05   A Lances
Raven    Mercenary 05.00   25  08  11  13  02  05  01   C Swords
Lucius   Monk      03.00   18  07  06  10  02  01  06   D Light

Chapter 17x: The Port of Badon.

Turns - 4/49, 91.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

None of my units have six move..., so I had to settle for a four turn. Built supports a bit between Raven and Lucius and Eliwood/Oswin and Hector. Eliwood talked to Fargus, Hector got the Sleep Staff, Oswin the Devil Axe and Raven recruited Canas for the Secret Book. I let Fargus talk to me so Lucius could get a bit more experience on the Enemy Phase.


Unit     Class     Level   HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord      16.91   34  19  13  14  05  16  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord      18.45   34  18  18  19  17  13  07   A Swords
Oswin    Knight    16.35   34  18  12  10  04  16  05   A Lances
Raven    Mercenary 05.10   25  08  11  13  02  05  01   C Swords
Lucius   Monk      04.53   19  08  06  11  02  01  07   D Light

Chapter 18: Pirate Ship.

Turns - 4/53, 94.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Yeah, five move is the worst, the only unit I can get to attack the boss on turn three is Lucius who does a grand total of 0 damage. Oswin went and killed the boss, he needs to have five move for next chapter so he promoted just before fighting the boss so as not to waste the experience. Raven and Lucius trained on the enemies from the right ship while they built supports and Eliwood and Hector did the same. Bought a few more weapons and an extra lightning for Lucius.


Unit     Class     Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord      17.05     35  20  14  15  06  16  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord      18.56     34  18  18  19  17  13  07   A Swords
Oswin    General   17/01.92  39  20  15  14  04  18  08   A Lances, E Axes
Raven    Mercenary 06.17     26  09  12  14  03  06  01   C Swords
Lucius   Monk      05.84     19  09  07  11  02  02  08   D Light

Chapter 19: The Dread Isle.

Turns - 5/58, 99.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Oswin needed 5 move so he could break both the Snags on the first two turns, he got the Torch Staff and Eliwood went to kill Uhai. Hector, Raven and Lucius trained in the north and Florina recruited Fiora for her weapons. Eliwood hit level 20, he has capped Strength and Speed, he's like +5 in every stat it's pretty stupid, if only he could promote now, alas.


Unit     Class     Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord      17.41     35  20  14  15  06  16  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord      20.00     35  20  19  20  19  14  09   A Swords
Oswin    General   17/02.38  40  21  15  15  04  18  08   A Lances, E Axes
Raven    Mercenary 07.28     27  10  13  14  03  06  02   C Swords
Lucius   Monk      08.34     21  12  08  13  03  02  09   C Light

Chapter 19x: Prisoner of Magic.

Turns - 5/63, 104.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Oswin rescued Hector on turn three and dropped him in range to seize on turn five which saved one turn other than that just walked. Eliwood had to kill Aion unfortunately because Raven doesn't really have the stats to take the lead and clear the Knights out of the way without dying even though he could have gotten the kill with the Killing Edge and Oswin was one Strength short of OHKOing with the Devil Axe, oh well not a big loss. Didn't get the Goddess Icon.


Unit     Class     Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord      17.84     35  20  14  15  06  16  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord      20.00     35  20  19  20  19  14  09   A Swords
Oswin    General   17/02.49  40  21  15  15  04  18  08   A Lances, E Axes
Raven    Mercenary 08.76     27  11  14  15  03  06  03   C Swords
Lucius   Monk      10.57     22  14  09  14  03  02  10   C Light

Chapter 20: Dragon's Gate.

Turns - 5/68, 109.21 with Handicap.

Spoiler

Lucius stayed in the south to kill the Sniper and get the Brave Bow and Silver Bow. Everyone else went north with Raven leading the way and putting the Longsword to good use, he got the kill on both Cameron and Darin which gave him a nice boost of experience. I didn't get any other items or recruit Legault though.


Unit     Class     Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord      17.84     35  20  14  15  06  16  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord      20.00     35  20  19  20  19  14  09   A Swords
Oswin    General   17/03.22  41  21  16  16  05  18  08   S Lances, E Axes
Raven    Mercenary 11.92     30  13  15  17  04  07  04   C Swords
Lucius   Monk      12.00     23  16  11  15  03  02  10   C Light

Sturm · February 27, 2018

Chapter 21: New Resolve.

Turns - 2/70, 111.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Hector rescued Lucius and got danced so he could drop Lucius in range to kill Oleg with a crit on turn two Enemy Phase. Eliwood visited the Light Rune!Village and Oswin and Raven went to the Arena once each. Got the Divine and Marcus bought four Pure Waters, didn't get any other Villages or Items.


Unit     Class     Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord      18.08     36  20  15  16  06  17  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord      20.00     35  20  19  20  19  14  09   A Swords
Oswin    General   17/03.67  41  21  16  16  05  18  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Mercenary 12.72     31  14  15  18  04  07  04   B Swords
Lucius   Monk      14.24     24  16  13  16  04  02  11   C Light
Ninian   Dancer    01.20     14  00  00  12  10  05  04   ---

Chapter 22: Kinship's Bond.

Turns - 3/73, 114.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

At long last I finally get some some mounts! Isadora immediately made herself useful, Marcus traded her some stuff and she got danced forward a few spaces so she could Halberd Eubans on turn three. Her con almost made this a problem as she couldn't double the Wyvern Riders with a Steel Lance and Iron Lance was too weak to 2HKO and the Swordreaver Fighters would do a lot of damage to her if she used a Steel Sword probably resulting in her death. Fortunately I had a three use Hand Axe left and the Fighters move first so she was able to break that and then equip a Steel Sword to finish the Wyverns, that's why you don't sell low use weapons, you never know when they might be needed. Hector rescued Eliwood and Raven and Lucius went to the left while Oswin rescued Ninian so she could reach Lucius on the last turn. Hector gave Eliwood to Raven and Lucius opened the door for them, Raven dropped Eliwood so he could recruit Heath. After Heath had been recruited Lucius gave him a Chest Key and Raven killed the Thief who had been kind enough to open the Door to the Treasure and he got the Brave Axe then Lucius got danced to get the gold.


Unit     Class        Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord         18.08     36  20  15  16  06  17  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord         20.00     35  20  19  20  19  14  09   A Swords
Oswin    General      17/03.79  41  21  16  16  05  18  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Mercenary    13.21     32  15  15  19  04  08  04   B Swords
Lucius   Monk         14.24     24  16  13  16  04  02  11   C Light
Ninian   Dancer       01.40     14  00  00  12  10  05  04   ---
Isadora  Paladin      --/02.68  28  14  12  16  11  08  06   A Swords, B Lances, D Axes
Heath    Wyvern Rider 07.00     28  11  08  07  07  10  01   B Lances
Rath     Nomad        09.09     27  09  10  11  05  08  02   B Bows

Chapter 23: Living Legend.

Turns - 3/76, 117.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

I worked out a two turn clear first but it required Raven to be promoted and that meant I didn't get enough experience to go to Genesis plus I missed out on most of the treasure though the Filla's Might is the only important one really. It was also quite unreliable, Raven had to hit a lot of Hand Axe hits at shaky hit rate and Lucius had to land a crit on one of the bosses while not getting OHKO'd so I took the three turn and kept Raven unpromoted.

Eliwood found the Ocean Seal to sell and Raven used a Pure Water then Oswin rescued him, Heath took him and Pure Watered as well and then he got Danced and dropped Raven near the middle. Lucius went north to kill most of the enemies near the grass and Rath positioned himself next to the Cliffs to kill the Mages and Archers, he got two Short Bow criticals which saved some Brave Bow uses not like those are in danger of running out. Heath flew back picked up Lucius and got Danced again after Rath killed the Mage in the way and dropped Lucius in range of the other Boss, Isadora went to finish the enemies Lucius hadn't killed and Raven killed the first Boss with the Killing Edge. On turn three Lucius attacked the boss and found the Body Ring, Raven killed a Mage and got the Eclipse (probably useless), Florina got the Filla's Might and Heath got the Light Brand not sure if that one will be useful but maybe Eliwood can find a use for it though he'll promote and be able to use Javelins soon, still it cost me nothing to get it. The remaining enemies suicided on Enemy Phase, one of the Wyvern Riders decided to attack Pent instead of Heath I have no Idea why he would do that but his choice I guess.


Unit     Class        Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord         18.08     36  20  15  16  06  17  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord         20.00     35  20  19  20  19  14  09   A Swords
Oswin    General      17/03.79  41  21  16  16  05  18  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Mercenary    14.58     33  15  16  29  04  08  04   B Swords
Lucius   Monk         17.74     24  17  14  18  05  02  14   C Light
Ninian   Dancer       01.81     14  00  00  12  10  05  04   ---
Isadora  Paladin      --/03.44  29  15  13  17  11  08  06   A Swords, B Lances, D Axes
Heath    Wyvern Rider 07.00     28  11  08  07  07  10  01   B Lances
Rath     Nomad        10.91     27  10  11  11  06  08  03   B Bows

Chapter 23x: Genesis.

Turns - 0(20)/76, 117.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Farm_Experience.avi. Hector, Eliwood, Lucius and Heath went south, Lucius killed the General for a final level and then promoted. Hector rescued Eliwood to tank his avoid and then got shot at through the Wall so Lucius could heal him, Oswin just stood next to him to build their Support. Heath killed the Druid and Bishop and then waited around for Isadora. The rest went west with Isadora, who had used the Body Ring, breaking all the Walls with a Steel Lance and Ninian Daces. After the initial enemies were killed Raven went and kill the enemies on the way to the south west Chest and Rath slowly killed everything in the Room with Kishuna, Isadora made her way through to meet up with Heath taking Niniah with her and they made their way through to the Door to Kishuna room. I opened it rather than attack Kishuna so I could get all the Silver Weapons. I still had about five turns left so Hector continued to tank the Archer and Ninian used some Ninis' Grace uses for Experience. I only had two Chest Keys so I got the Berserk, obviously, and the Secret Book because it was just easier to get and the Silver Blades stats are pretty bad anyway. Eliwood and Hector got their B support, Oswin and Hector got C and Raven and Lucius got C as well.

To be honest I think 20 turns is too many free turns, similar to what Athena said in his analysis. It's sort of less relevant on this map as there are no reinforcements to grind on but more so in Chapter 28x. This map basically has to be free (I guess you could just ban it outright but I think it's quite good to give the person who has the underlevelled team a bit of a chance to catch up) because certain teams are going to find it nearly impossible to get the experience requirement. I was pretty much going as slowly as possible to feed experience to Heath and Rath and let Isadora kill all the Walls and still had nothing to do for a few turns and I remember the same thing being the case for Gaidens in Shadow Dragon, I think changing these to 15 turns would be the way to go. As for Chapter 28x it would be possible to just make it like a normal map and force people to go to it as the requirement is easy to achieve but I'm not sure that's the way to go I'll see what I think when I've done that map.


Unit     Class        Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord         18.22     36  20  15  16  06  17  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord         20.00     35  20  19  20  19  14  09   A Swords
Oswin    General      17/03.79  41  21  16  16  05  18  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Mercenary    16.02     35  17  16  20  05  08  05   B Swords
Lucius   Bishop       18/01.78  27  20  16  19  05  05  17   A Light, C Staves
Ninian   Dancer       04.41     17  00  00  15  12  06  06   ---
Isadora  Paladin      --/04.03  30  16  13  18  12  08  06   A Swords, A Lances, D Axes
Heath    Wyvern Rider 12.99     32  15  12  12  09  12  03   B Lances
Rath     Nomad        16.18     32  16  15  15  09  08  05   B Bows

Chapter 24: Four-Fanged Offence.

Turns - 1/77, 118.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Apparently Rath didn't get the memo about how true hit works because I had to burn a stupid number of RN's to get him to hit two 50% Brave Bow hits on Lloyd. Heath went to the Arena. Isadora used the Afa's Drops and a Secret Book, maybe it's a weird choice not giving them to Heath but I don't think he really needs anything and having a slightly stronger Isadora should be helpful and she's gotten nice levels so I decided to go with it.


Unit     Class        Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord         18.22     36  20  15  16  06  17  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord         20.00     35  20  19  20  19  14  09   A Swords
Oswin    General      17/03.79  41  21  16  16  05  18  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Mercenary    16.02     35  17  16  20  05  08  05   B Swords
Lucius   Bishop       18/01.78  27  20  16  19  05  05  17   A Light, C Staves
Ninian   Dancer       04.61     17  00  00  15  12  06  06   ---
Isadora  Paladin      --/04.03  30  16  13  18  12  08  06   A Swords, A Lances, D Axes
Heath    Wyvern Rider 13.47     33  15  12  13  09  13  04   B Lances
Rath     Nomad        17.18     32  17  16  16  09  08  05   B Bows

Chapter 25: Crazed Beast.

Turns - 3/80, 121.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Rath promoted so he could use Swords to take the Pirate Castle, I'm not totally sure but I think his good movement through the Forests might have saved a turn here. Raven also promoted and used the Goddess Icon so he's slightly less likely to kill himself when he's training axe rank with the Devil Axe next map. Heath and Hector both Pure Watered and got danced and flew across to take care of the Monk Castle and get the Elysian Whip for Heath, Hector capped his level. Isadora rescued Ninian and Eliwood dropped her so she could dance Isadora to reach the Forts south of the Cavalier Castle the next turn without triggering the reinforcements as she would almost certainly die taking on that many enemies without the Fort for cover well she could use a Hand Axe for WTA but I want her to reach S Lances as soon as possible. Raven rescued Lucius and gave him to Rath the next turn so Lucius could kill a Pirate blocking Rath from taking the final Castle. I sold the Ocean Seal and bought two Mends and two Lightnings for Lucius with Florina.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord          20.00     38  20  17  16  07  19  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Lord          20.00     35  20  19  20  19  14  09   A Swords
Oswin    General       17/04.04  42  21  17  16  06  19  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/01.29  39  17  18  22  07  10  07   A Swords, E Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/02.20  27  20  17  19  06  06  17   A Light, C Staves
Ninian   Dancer        04.83     17  00  00  15  12  06  06   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/05.24  31  16  16  19  13  09  06   A Swords, A Lances, D Axes
Heath    Wyvern Rider  15.46     35  17  14  14  11  14  05   B Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/02.86  36  20  17  18  09  11  09   E Swords, A Bows

Sturm · February 27, 2018

@JudgeWargraveForgot to mention this the other day and then I forgot again now and I can't edit my post, but I was pretty impressed you managed to 6 turn Jerme's version of Chapter 27, I always hear people deride that map for LTC compared to Kenneth's version (I don't even know if I've ever even done it to be honest) but that didn't seem so bad, I don't think you could hope for any better than 5 Turns on Kenneth's map because of the Snow.

Sturm · March 10, 2018

Chapter 26: Unfulfilled Heart.

Turns - 11/91, 132.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

At long last Eliwood promoted! Eliwood, Isadora, Heath and Rath took a quadrant of the map each basically, Eliwood the northwest, Isadora the southeast, Heath the southwest and Rath the northwest. Heath dropped Oswin and NInian over the mountain on the first two turns so they could build supports with Eliwood and Hector, while Ninian spammed Rings for experience. Raven lured the Myrmidon onto the mountains and then repeatedly missed him with the Devil Axe for 10 turns, he doubled even with the Devil Axe because the Myrimidon had a Steel Blade and his hit was pretty low but he had to occasionally rescue Florina to tank his hit so he would miss so he didn't kill the Myrmidon. Raven got all the way to S Axes, Isadora got S lances and then took the Devil Axe off of Raven and whacked a few Dragonriders around to get B Axes so she can use the Brave Axe if she needs to, Rath got S Bows and D Swords and Heath promoted on the last turn. Fiora bought a bunch of killer weapons after Eliwood baited Vaida away from the Shop, I didn't kill her so I can get the second Spear later.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord          20.00     38  20  17  16  07  19  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Knight Lord   20/03.84  40  22  20  21  20  15  13   A Swords, D Lances
Oswin    General       17/04.04  42  21  17  16  06  19  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/01.47  39  17  18  22  07  10  07   A Swords, S Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/02.45  27  20  17  19  06  06  17   A Light, B Staves
Ninian   Dancer        06.73     19  01  00  16  14  08  08   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/08.62  33  17  18  22  15  10  06   A Swords, S Lances, B Axes
Heath    Wyvern Lord   20/01.00  44  20  20  20  11  17  08   E Swords, A Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/06.10  40  22  20  20  10  12  10   D Swords, S Bows

Chapter 27: Pale Flower of Darkness.

Turns - 4/95, 136.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

Turns out I was wrong when I guessed you couldn't get better than five turns on this map due to the snow though it took me a while to figure out how to do it. Rath was vital here as he can move four spaces across plains the same as a flying unit unlike Paladins that can only move two, he probably saved two turns here. I pretty quickly noticed that I could drop Ninian far enough forward on turn two that she could dance an 8 move unit far enough that they could drop Hector in range of the throne on turn three but the Mercenary was always blocking the way and I couldn't figure out how to move him while still getting Ninian in the right place to Dance. I tried using the Berserk Staff but nothing would work. After a while It came to me and it was actually much simpler than what I had been trying to do, sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees I guess. Rath, Ninian and Heath were deployed in the front three positions. Rath rescued Eliwood and then got danced and dropped him ahead, while Lucius and Heath dropped Ninian forward and Oswin rescued Hector, Raven went east to get some Experience and Isadora went to the room north of the starting point. Turn two Oswin gave Hector to Heath who gave him to Rath and Rath dropped him in range of the mercenary, Ninian danced Heath and he and Eliwood dropped her forward so she could dance Rath next turn. After that it was straight forward Rath dropped Hector in range of the Throne and Brave Bowed Kenneth while everyone else got experience. Ninian got attacked quite a lot here but the hit rates were very low so her chance of death was negligible.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord          20.00     38  20  17  16  07  19  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Knight Lord   20/04.38  41  22  21  22  21  16  13   A Swords, D Lances
Oswin    General       17/04.04  42  21  17  16  06  19  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/02.43  40  18  18  23  08  11  07   A Swords, S Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/02.67  27  20  17  19  06  06  17   A Light, B Staves
Ninian   Dancer        07.19     20  01  00  17  15  09  08   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/09.72  34  18  19  23  15  10  06   A Swords, S Lances, B Axes
Heath    Wyvern Lord   20/01.85  44  20  20  20  11  17  08   E Swords, A Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/08.36  42  23  21  22  10  12  11   D Swords, S Bows

Chapter 28: Battle Before Dawn.

Turns - 4/99, 140.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

...And I had to replay the entire game up to this point. So I had checked on FE:WoD to see where you get Chest Keys to make sure I have enough and it said there was a General in the previous map with one which is true but it turns out, unbeknown to me at the time, that there are one use Chest Keys as well as five use ones and that General has a one use one so I only had one Chest Key instead of the five I thought I'd have. So I had to replay the game and skip the 10,000g in Chapter 22 and the Secret Book in 23x so I had enough Chest Keys for the Brave Lance, Rescue and Boots. I considered skipping the Berserk to get the Delphi Shield but I'm pretty sure Heath doesn't need it so I decided against it.

I had just enough movement to get a four turn here, needing three eight move units and another unit that could attack at nine range. I required a bit of help from Jaffar though to kill some of the enemies that I couldn't reach which meant he had to move a certain way but once I worked out his AI it was pretty straight forward. Hector used a Torch to give vision of the enemies in the east and Eliwood killed the southern of the two Fighters so that Heath could full move east, he was in the southeast deployment slot which is 32 spaces from Ursula so he can reach her in 4 turns if he full moves each turn. Isadora opened the door to the west and Rath rescued her and got danced and dropped her ahead to kill a mage. Lucius used the Torch to get vision of the Stairs where the Thieves spawn. On turn two Eliwood opened the Door and Heath flew ahead, Rath went back to get Ninian and he rescue-dropped her forward with Isadora but they stayed as far back as they could so that Jaffar would move east where he could kill the enemies that I couldn't reach. I assume that he moves towards the nearest allied unit to heal which is Nino but if Isadora full moved down she would be closer and he would move west instead which would cost the four turn. Lucius slept the thief when he spawned so that the other thieves couldn't spawn, due to their non-aggresive nature I didn't have enough player phase actions to kill multiple thieves but by blocking them from spawning I could just kill the one thief on the last turn. Turn 3 Isadora moved forward and then Ninian danced her so she could kill all the enemies in the southwest area on turn four, Raven Oswin and Hector dropped Lucius so he could give Heath vision of Usula so he could kill her while she had the Bolting equipped rather than needing a Killer Lance Crit on enemy phase. On the last turn Rath killed Maxime and then got danced to kill the Thief and then everything suicided on Isadora/ Heath and Jaffar finished the last Mercenary on his phase routing the map. After that I got the treasure, built Supports and spammed Staves with Lucius until he ran out of Torches/people to heal, he hit A Staves and Ninian/Eliwood got their C support, I wonder if they can get their B Support by next map Eliwood might end up getting all 5 of his support conversations by the end of the game lol.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord          20.00     38  20  17  16  07  19  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Knight Lord   20/05.61  42  23	 21  22  22  17  14   A Swords, D Lances
Oswin    General       17/04.33  42  21  17  16  06  19  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/02.43  40  18  18  23  08  11  07   A Swords, S Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/04.97  28  22  18  20  06  07  18   A Light, A Staves
Ninian   Dancer        08.60     21  01  00  18  16  09  08   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/11.45  36  18  19  24  17  11  07   A Swords, S Lances, B Axes
Heath    Wyvern Lord   20/06.31  49  25  22  21  12  18  09   E Swords, S Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/09.29  43  23  21  23  10  12  12   D Swords, S Bows

Sturm · March 28, 2018

Chapter 28x: Night of Farewells.

Turns - 0(20)/99, 140.21 with Handicap

Spoiler

More experience! I let Raven and Isadora get most of the kills so they could get some more Strength, Heath just flew them around a bit and got a couple of kills of his own. Rath stayed at the start and killed all the Wyverns then Heath carried him over so he could kill the Pirates and Cavaliers. Eliwood killed all the Falcoknights and got his completely pointless B support with Ninian while Oswin and Hector got their ever so slightly more useful B support as well. Got the Speedwing thanks to the power of an enemy thief though everyone has capped or near capped Speed except for Hector and Rath so I don't think anyone even wants it, the other treasure I couldn't get not that any of it is useful.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Lord          20.00     38  20  17  16  07  19  04   A Axes
Eliwood  Knight Lord   20/11.13  47  27	 24  24  27  18  18   S Swords, D Lances
Oswin    General       17/04.33  42  21  17  16  06  19  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/08.65  46  23  24  26  09  12  08   A Swords, S Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/08.11  31  25  22  21  08  08  21   A Light, A Staves
Ninian   Dancer        10.30     23  01  00  20  18  10  10   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/16.51  40  22  23  25  20  13  10   A Swords, S Lances, B Axes
Heath    Wyvern Lord   20/08.14  51  27  23  22  13  18  09   E Swords, S Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/13.58  47  25  22  27  11  13  13   C Swords, S Bows

Chapter 29: Cog of Destiny.

Turns - 3/102, 140.21 with Handicap.

Spoiler

Turn one Isadora and Eliwood killed a knight each and Heath rescued Isadora and got danced and dropped her so she could kill all the enemies in the southwest and then grab the Warp Staff by turn three. Raven killed the Myrmidons but I had him wait just outside the reinforcement trigger zone and the same with Rath for the Cavaliers/Nomads so I only had to deal with the General reinforcements. Turn two Eliwood rescued Raven and got danced to give him to Heath who took him to help clear out the enemies around the south of the Shrine while Lucius killed most of the Generals. Turn three Heath ORKO'd Linus with the Brave Lance and convoyed it to switch back to a Javelin for the Snipers, Hector recruited Vaida for her Spear and Isadora got the Warp Staff and dropped it in the Convoy so Lucius could fish it out and Warp Eliwood up to take care of two Nomads one of which had a Longbow and so needed to be killed on Player Phase, everything remaining suicided on Enemy Phase.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Great Lord    20/01.00  41  20  19  19  07  20  09   D Swords, A Axes
Eliwood  Knight Lord   20/12.55  48  27	 25  24  27  18  18   S Swords, D Lances
Oswin    General       17/04.99  42  21  17  16  06  19  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/14.95  51  25  27  26  13  14  08   A Swords, S Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/10.24  32  25  23  23  08  08  22   S Light, A Staves
Ninian   Dancer        10.60     23  01  00  20  18  10  10   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/17.90  41  23  23  25  22  13  11   A Swords, S Lances, B Axes
Heath    Wyvern Lord   20/11.53  54  27  25  23  13  18  09   E Swords, S Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/14.51  48  25  23  28  11  13  13   C Swords, S Bows

Chapter 30: The Berserker.

Turns - 3/105, 143.21 with Handicap.

Spoiler

Heath rescues Hector and gets Warped and then ORKO's the Boss with the Brave Lance and Hector waddles onto the spot, got two Chest Keys from enemy thieves for the Body Ring and Dragonshield next map.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Great Lord    20/01.98  41  20  19  19  07  20  09   D Swords, A Axes
Eliwood  Knight Lord   20/12.55  48  27	 25  24  27  18  18   S Swords, D Lances
Oswin    General       17/04.99  42  21  17  16  06  19  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/14.95  51  25  27  26  13  14  08   A Swords, S Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/11.78  33  25  24  24  08  08  23   S Light, A Staves
Nils     Bard          10.60     23  01  00  20  18  10  10   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/17.90  41  23  23  25  22  13  11   A Swords, S Lances, B Axes
Heath    Wyvern Lord   20/12.86  54  27  25  23  13  19  10   E Swords, S Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/14.51  48  25  23  28  11  13  13   C Swords, S Bows

Edited March 28, 2018 by Sturm

Sturm · April 1, 2018

Chapter 31: Sands of Time.

Turns - 2/107, 145.21 with Handicap.

Spoiler

Hector killed all the Shamans and Knights southeast of the Throne, Rath killed the Snipers over the wall, Isadora killed most of the stuff in the room to the south, Heath got Warped down and killed Denning on turn one to stop the reinforcements and Raven killed the Myrmidons and Swordmaster. Lucius Berserked the Sleep!Druid on turn two so he would suicide on Heath rather than try to Sleep Isadora and he killed some Knights and Generals near the Centre. Got the Dragonshield which I don't really need and the Body Ring. Lucius spammed mend for the rest of the map for no reason and Hector and Eliwood got their A support.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Great Lord    20/04.77  43  23  20  21  09  23  09   D Swords, A Axes
Eliwood  Knight Lord   20/12.55  48  27	 25  24  27  18  18   S Swords, D Lances
Oswin    General       17/04.99  42  21  17  16  06  19  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/15.89  52  25  27  26  13  14  08   A Swords, S Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/13.93  34  25  25  24  08  09  23   S Light, A Staves
Nils     Bard          10.60     23  01  00  20  18  10  10   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/18.23  42  23  23  25  23  13  11   A Swords, S Lances, B Axes
Heath    Wyvern Lord   20/15.68  55  27  25  23  13  20  10   E Swords, S Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/16.34  50  25  25  30  12  13  13   C Swords, S Bows

Chapter 31x: Battle Preparations.

Turns - 5/112, 150.21 with Handicap.

Spoiler

What a great map! Went to the Arena a bunch even though Hector's the only person who kind of needs it and bought some Door Keys for the final map. Lucius Hammerned the Warp.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Great Lord    20/06.24  45  25  20  21  11  25  09   D Swords, A Axes
Eliwood  Knight Lord   20/13.96  48  27	 25  24  28  18  18   S Swords, D Lances
Oswin    General       17/04.99  42  21  17  16  06  19  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/18.32  54  25  29  26  13  17  08   A Swords, S Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/14.57  35  25  25  24  08  09  24   S Light, A Staves
Nils     Bard          10.60     23  01  00  20  18  10  10   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/19.34  43  23  24  25  24  13  12   A Swords, S Lances, B Axes
Heath    Wyvern Lord   20/15.68  55  27  25  23  13  20  10   E Swords, S Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/17.78  51  25  26  30  13  13  13   C Swords, S Bows

Chapter 32: Victory or Death.

Turn - 3/115, 153.21 with Handicap.

Spoiler

I have way more Warp/Rescue uses than I'll ever need so I Warped Heath on turn one and he went to the northern Forts near the centre while Rath Rescued Hector and got Danced so he could give Hector to Heath on turn two. Lucius got Rescue-Dropped onto the Forts near the start by Isadora and Raven so that he could Rescue Nils to Dance him on turn two and Warp Heath which meant that the Sniper Reinforcements were triggered on turn two instead of turn one so Heath didn't have to dodge a bunch of ballista whilst carrying Hector. Also it meant that he could get right up next to Limstella and conveniently she exactly died to two Tomahawk hits from Hector and four Brave Lance hits from Heath so that meant Heath didn't need a crit to kill her from full HP, also it meant that I got the Bolting rather than the Fimbulvetr which is slightly more useful.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Great Lord    20/07.xx  46  26  21  21  11  26  09   D Swords, A Axes
Eliwood  Knight Lord   20/18.80  51  27	 26  24  30  19  19   S Swords, C Lances
Oswin    General       17/04.99  42  21  17  16  06  19  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/18.46  54  25  29  26  13  17  08   A Swords, S Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/16.21  36  25  26  24  09  09  26   S Light, A Staves
Nils     Bard          10.90     23  01  00  20  18  10  10   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/19.46  43  23  24  25  24  13  12   A Swords, S Lances, B Axes
Heath    Wyvern Lord   20/18.17  57  27  25  23  13  20  12   E Swords, S Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/19.61  52  25  27  30  13  13  13   C Swords, S Bows

Sturm · April 7, 2018

Chapter 32x: The Value of Life.

Turns - 1/116, 154.21 with Handicap.

Spoiler

Kishuna is pretty fast but Rath still doubles so he got Warped over after a Filla's Might boost and ORKO'd him with a Silver Bow except he missed the first attack but then he crit the second so all was good. Hector Tomahawked the General for an extra level.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Great Lord    20/08.10  46  27  21  22  11  27  09   D Swords, A Axes
Eliwood  Knight Lord   20/18.80  51  27	 26  24  30  19  19   S Swords, C Lances
Oswin    General       17/04.99  42  21  17  16  06  19  08   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/18.46  54  25  29  26  13  17  08   A Swords, S Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/16.21  36  25  26  24  09  09  26   S Light, A Staves
Nils     Bard          11.00     24  01  00  20  19  10  10   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/19.46  43  23  24  25  24  13  12   A Swords, S Lances, B Axes
Heath    Wyvern Lord   20/18.17  57  27  25  23  13  20  12   E Swords, S Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/20.00  52  25  28  30  13  13  13   C Swords, S Bows

Endgame: Light I.

Turns - 2/118, 156.21 with Handicap.

Spoiler

Eliwood used the Body Ring so he could double stuff with the Durandal. Hector opened Brendan's Room and killed him with the Brave Axe. Eliwood opened Darin's Room and killed them with the Durandal. Athos moved up and weakened Darin with a Bolting and then got Danced, opened Kenneth's Room and killed Kenneth and the Druid with Luna. Lucius Warped Raven up to Lloyd/Linus' room and Heath weakened Lloyd with the Spear so Raven could finish him with the Swordslayer. Rath ORKO'd Uhai with a Killer Bow and then dropped it to equip a Longbow so the Snipers would kill themselves. Oswin opened Jerme/Ursula's room and Isadora OHKO'd Ursula with a KIller Lance Crit.

Turn 2 Hector killed the Warrior, Raven OHKO'd Linus with a Swordslayer crit, Heath killed the Sage and Isadora weakened Jerme with a Killer Lance crit + hit and Oswin finished him. Athos rescued Eliwood and then Lucius Warped him up to Nergal and Nils refreshed Athos so he could Physic Eliwood after he'd attacked Nergal and he finished him on Enemy Phase.


Unit     Class         Level     HP  Atk Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Weapon Level
Hector   Great Lord    20/09.49  47  28  22  22  12  27  09   D Swords, A Axes
Eliwood  Knight Lord   20/20.00  52  27	 26  24  30  20  19   S Swords, C Lances
Oswin    General       17/05.82  43  21  17  16  06  20  09   S Lances, D Axes
Raven    Hero          16/19.22  55  25  30  26  14  18  08   A Swords, S Axes
Lucius   Bishop        18/17.47  37  25  26  24  09  09  27   S Light, A Staves
Nils     Bard          11.20     24  01  00  20  19  10  10   ---
Isadora  Paladin       --/20.00  44  23  25  25  25  14  12   A Swords, S Lances, B Axes
Heath    Wyvern Lord   20/19.15  58  27  25  23  13  21  12   E Swords, S Lances
Rath     Nomad Trooper 17/20.00  52  25  28  30  13  13  13   C Swords, S Bows
Athos    Archsage      --/20.00  40  30  24  20  24  20  28   S Anima, S Light, S Dark, S Staves

Endgame: Light II.

Turns - 1/119, 157.21 with Handicap.

Old Greybeard Athos tells Eliwood of his role as the prophesied Dragonborn of legend and he proceeds to one v one the Dragon, ~~well with a little support from Nils and Athos but we ignore that bit.~~ Turns out Hector knew of Athos' true identity this whole time. Credit to @Finalinsanity for the inspiration for this totally original idea.

Unit Reviews:

Cost: Free. 'Athos? Never heard of her'. - Eliwood, 2018.

Cost: 5.40, Bid: 7.00. The man, the myth, the legend. I've never had a unit get so stat blessed I don't think. Just overall a solid unit with great availability. I think 7 was fine for him, I kind of regretted it at first seeing as I ended up with Heath to carry Hector but he was useful on the majority of maps and very good on a few most notably 'False Friends' plus having an extra mounted unit was needed for a few late game strategies that saved some turns and he also picked up the slack after Oswin started to fall off and before the rest of my units joined/caught up.

Cost: 9.40, Bid 11.00. Getting a flier is obviously a very important thing so bidding 11 for him is something I'd clearly agree with. I'd say he's about equal with Fiora though definitely worse than Florina. He has the advantage of being able to carry Hector after the latter promotes but Fiora has some maps she can ferry before Heath joins, he's obviously stronger and more durable but she's faster and has a bit of a level lead so I think it probably balances out. There's one thing though that really pulls Heath up in rating in my opinion and that's free Genesis aka Pinatas of experience, this map along with Unfulfilled Heart really gives him a huge boost in experience without costing turns, it's definitely very strong for any team that can get it and was for sure the right choice to sacrifice a turn on Living Legend to go there.

Cost: Free. Hand Axes are a pretty good weapon, as is the Wolf Beil. I don't know what I can say about Hector really, pretty good in rout maps I guess and not afraid of anything. Most useful in early game rout maps and Whereabouts Unknown where he just murdered his way through the castle, after the mounts joined he did very little really.

Cost: 5.40, Bid: 7.00. The real question here is why is she worse than Marcus in pretty much every way when she joins 10 or so Chapter after him? Nice job Intelligent Systems. I'm not too surprised I got Isadora to be honest I considered going a little bit higher but I took the risk and it worked. I think she's a pretty overlooked character, a Paladin is a Paladin after all and she doesn't really require any training to start being useful, just the Body Ring from the map after she joins and she's a pretty good candidate for the Angelic Robe she comes with though I horded it, actually I think I never used it, whoops. It's hard to say if how much of a difference the Afa's Drops made to her but they definitely didn't hurt and she turned out very well, honestly she was stronger than she really needed to be she could have ORKO'd most late game stuff with maybe only 18-19 Strength and pull out the occasional Spear or Silver Lance use for some enemies would have done the job.

Cost: 8.00, Bid: 8.00. Obviously having a good Warper is similar to having a flier in that they're always going to be very important to any team. I don't think there is much difference between Lucius and the other main Warpers: Erk, Canas, Pent. I don't think there's any maps that need a higher magic stat than 25 to pull of at least those that only involve one Staff user and instant C Staves doesn't really make too much of a difference as the number of defend maps make it pretty easy to get to Warp from E Rank. In terms of combat he was pretty useful for a bit through the mid game where Eliwood and Raven were Swordlocked so his 1-2 range and good Magic/Speed was useful. Late game he's too squishy to take a lot of abuse and his lack of Luck kind of mitigates his Speed in terms of avoid but I had a bunch of other units to perform the combat duties. in this sense he's maybe a bit worse than Canas, Pent and Erk as they are more durable/join earlier so they can provide better late game Combat than Lucius but his main role is to Warp people which he did very well.

Cost: 4.01, Bid: 6.00. I'm pretty happy with Oswin's performance, he was an important unit in the early part of the game, one of the better early units I would say despite his four move. His ability to pick up Hector also came in handy a couple of times being able to move Hector forward just a square or two made a difference on some maps. After Isadora, Heath and Rath joined he did almost nothing other than a couple of kills on rout maps and occasionally handing Hector of to one of the mounts on the second turn but I fully expected him to do very little late game, he was there for early-mid game and he performed nicely there.

Cost: 3.80, Bid: 7.00. I'm not sure how Rath got such a high B/W rating compared to some of the units with 1-2 range, I guess I favoured him a bit more. A late joining, underlevelled, bow-locked unit with mediocre bases doesn't sound very appealing at first, but there are a few things that redeem Rath I think. Firstly having base B Bows is very nice allowing him to use the Brave Bow immediately which makes a big difference although he didn't use it that much really. Secondly possessing the omnipotent creation known as 'a horse' but not just any horse a horse that can move very well through Snow and Forests which was great in 'Crazed Beast' and 'Pale Flower of Darkness' and of course he can ORKO Lloyd in 'Four-Fanged Offence'. The other thing that really makes him much better is Genesis even more so than someone like Heath as it's more or less tailor made for Rath to farm experience thanks to the Walls. Not really so useful on Rout maps like Cog of Destiny due to no 1-2 Range but that was more or less the only map after he joined where he really had to be on the sidelines.

Cost: 6.20, Bid: 7.00. I think actually Raven was probably the unit that performed the least compared to what I expected of him, that's not to say he was bad in any way but just overshadowed by other units. Swordlock for a while meant he wasn't really doing that much compared to Eliwood who had better stats across the board and the others who had 1-2 range. Late game he was pretty useful being durable and able to ORKO more or less anything with a Hand Axe, Devil Axe training was nice for the extra hit and crit as well, but there were a lot of maps like 'Battle Before Dawn' and 'Pale Flower of Darkness' where the strategies required a mount so he was sidelined, most useful for Cog of Destiny I guess and all right in Living Legend as well.

Overall team performance was great actually, much better than I had thought, early game was rough with no mounts but having four for late game as well as a good Warper and another good combat unit in Raven made my teams late game very strong and able to pull back a bunch of turns I didn't expect to be able to.

Final Turn Count: 119 Turns, 157.21 with Handicap.

As for the rules the idea behind bidding for units is an interesting one and I'd definitely try this style again, I also like the rule of defend as rout that was a nice idea and definitely brings something to those maps and the fact that most of my units are at or near level 20 promoted just goes to show how much experience this game throws at you though obviously Genesis and Night of Farewells made a big difference there.

JudgeWargrave · August 5, 2018

Firstly, nice job finishing Sturm, thanks for posting videos as well! It is interesting to take a peek at what others are actually doing beyond the chapter summary and it spurred me to squeeze out some extra turns myself.

I think you dropped some turns on your running total of your score with handicap: from 17x to 18 you correctly add 4 to the total turncount but only 3 to the total with handicap, and from 29 to 30 you correctly add 3 to total turncount but don't add anything to the total with handicap. Taking your total turncount of 119 turns and adding on the handicap of 42.21 your final score would be 161.21, accounting for those 4 dropped turns.

Now for my belated finish.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpKmf_dSFSo&list=PLtOZhNAJqDYnp2KXzJpHJokR6aRm4haw4&index=22&t=0s

Ch28 Battle Before Dawn, 6/107

Heath and Lyn get deployed to recruit Nino quicker. Most units book it down the right side toward Ursula, while Sain, Dart, and Matt mop up the left. Due to the rule making this a rout map, Nino gets way fewer levels and certainly can't be promoted in this chapter, sharply reducing the hope of ever making it to A staves. I actually give up on that goal pretty quick.

After all red units are exterminated, Nino gets Jaffar, Matt gets treasure, Ninian farms exp, and everyone twiddles their thumbs building supports.

Ch28x Night of Farewells, free/107

I think the number of free turns could be reduced to 15. Even with no water walking or flying units, it's not hard to get Hector to seize by that time, especially with the Boots from previous chapter. The reinforcements stop even if Sonia is still alive at that point I believe so you can't even farm exp beyond turn 15 except off Sonia herself.

Ch29 Cog of Destiny, 4/111

Matthew can gain exp again! I wish Thieves and Pirates used one consolidated promotion item as in FE8 (it would make more sense for it to be called the Fell Contract than the Ocean Seal imo) so Matt and Legault could potentially promote by Ch23--although for my team I would have used it on Dart anyway.

RIP Warp. There isn't a place where it would be worth the 4 turn penalty to deploy Pent anyway, and Athos doesn't need to use it to 2 turn Final. Filler units farm exp near the starting corner, 10-move Marcus goes boss killing, and Ninian facilitates in the center.

Ch30 The Berserker, 5/116

No one to carry or warp promoted Hector means that the only way to speed things up is with Nils. Marcus comes along too to carry Nils and kill the boss.

Ch31 Sands of Time, 2/118

Given that Sturm's completion involved a Warp to kill Denning turn 1 and a Berserk, I really didn't think I would get a 2 turn. The south, of course, was the tricky bit. Without killing Denning T1PP, there will be 3 enemies that will not suicide T2EP: Denning, another longbow Sniper, and the Thief reinforcement (technically a longbow user could counter, but would be unlikely to kill Denning, and even more enemies would non-suicide by attacking at 1-range). Therefore 3 of the 4 southern deployment slots must be dedicated to killing them T2PP. The 4th blue unit needs to kill the enemies in the room and some archers to the right, but the green units are a massive hindrance; realistically you need to pick up one, hope the other dies before turn 2, then rout the nearby enemies T2 with your skill and speed still halved. Fortunately, Bartre was up to the task. A Pure Water seemingly dissuaded the Druid from trying to Sleep Sain, and instead it suicided.

North was easy clean up, Nino promoted and started using Heal, Matt got treasure, and everyone huddled up to build support, although, spoiler, there won't be any more supports gained.

Ch31x Battle Preparations, 5/123

Bartre tries to fight Karla using a bow. She won't be deployed on the final two chapters, can't speed up the next chapter, and Matt can't even use her Wo Dao, so she truly is useless, but I send her into the arena anyway, for gold and amusement I guess.

Ch32 Victory or Death, 8/131

Like Ch30, Nils is the only way to accelerate Hector's plodding march. With Marcus, Sain, Wil, and Dart escorting them, they make it through the center with only one close call for Nils (well, two considering Limstella's Bolting can 1HKO from full health anyway). Bartre helps his future wife level up while they meet a weird old man in the north, and Nino and Matthew find some jewelry in the south.

Ch32x The Value of Life, 4/135

Nino proves her worth and actually saves a turn by Bolting an impeding Swordmaster out of Marcus's path. Hector uses up one more Devil Axe use for the sake of hitting S axes before the final chapter. Come to think it, I should have used more Elfire to try to reach S Anima on Nino. I did buy a bunch of Lancereavers, but even with the double weapon experience, neither Matt nor Karla reached S swords.

Ch33 Light, 2+1/138

Unexpectedly, the Unlock Staff proved crucial, as it allowed Athos to open the magic user room 3 tiles closer to Nergal than a door key would. Bartre got to put his beefy 30 strength and Brave Bow to good use, exactly 2HKOing Ursula before she could even counter. Hector Wolf Beil'd the Generals, Dart Swordslayer'd the brothers, Athos Luna'd the mages, and Sain killed Uhai with a Killer Lance. Everyone else was killed in fairly mundane fashion: one sniper was even 1RKO'd with an Iron Bow.

Filla's Might + Luna reduced the Dragon to 40hp, Nino used her last Bolting to get one final level, and Hector ended the game with Armads.

Final score 138 turns + 18.82 handicap = 156.82

Unit review

Spoiler

Matthew.png.067be97ec4c4447750abe8f14f45ba2b.png Bartre.png.f4f63d2e3034ece42ccf69053e1f0e4d.png Wil.png.cadd06f9bf3b00031c7db97453d590c7.png

Matthew (price 3.02) was fine early game and filler late game. Merely the fact of having another combat unit at the beginning probably saved more than 3 turns as compared to Legault, or worse, Jaffar, in the same slot, and considering they can't be rated below 0, Matthew must be worth appreciably more than 3.

Bartre (3.06) was actually fantastic. Like Matt, he helped immensely when he was 1/3 of the entire team, and he was no slouch in the late game either. It took some time to get his speed up, but soon enough he was doubling everything he needed to. I dare say he saved as many turns as Raven could have, if not more, after Raven's join time. Unlike Raven, he has 1-2 range before promotion, and can promote earlier for an extra move and even better combat. Plus, of course, he saves turns before Raven even exists. Considering Raven went for 6.2, I'm very satisfied with Bartre.

Wil (0.37) was OK. Can't complain too much about virtually free. There are a few places in the game where the lack of 1-range is irrelevant, and the ability to use ballista is occasionally helpful. At least Wil has the courtesy to show up with 2/3 of the game remaining rather than 1/3 like Louise (2.01).

Sain.png.7cf4d96e9a8e0495aa242c7382dc8b76.png Dart.png.9fa343a9d9f404b31145068a46c7a6c5.png Marcus.png.4c0eb5c262533f4490ed2eb024bbc056.png

Sain (5.05) was clearly important throughout the run. The fact that I got him at such a price exposes a bit of a flaw of the bidding system, but don't worry--I have a better system rolling out for the next one.

Dart (1.81), I also felt was undervalued. Absolutely everyone else rated him below Hawkeye, for instance, but that just makes no sense to me. There was never a point where having Hawkeye's stats instead of Dart's would have saved me any turns at all. Granted, he didn't save many turns before Hawkeye joins, probably two at most, but that's still better than Hawkeye in an LTC context. Even when he didn't save turns, he made managing the enemy easier, or could visit houses, chests, the arena, desert items....If anything, I underrated Dart relative to Hawkeye as well, because I only bid 0.5 more on him.

Aside from the Body Ring on Athos, a Secret Book on Dart was the only stat booster I used iirc.

Marcus >=20 (6.2) proved how great he was by being my best team member even when handicapped with showing up 11 chapters later than normal. I honestly think if we pushed Marcus's join time to show up 5 or 6 chapters late, he would outscore Florina. Having great weapon ranks compared to Sain often made him the better boss killer in the mid game.

Nino.png.cf33564954351625de3e8af650254b67.png Karla.png.d44af65d3ae183ac1d44183bf88884dc.png

Nino (0.27) actually did something beyond filler. I'm quite convinced that she's better than Jaffar. Neither helps much during 28x. Mainly Nino just starts closing her admittedly big stat gap, with Afa's helping by 0.35 per level. On 29 Jaffar is on cleanup duty and Nino can actually do the same job just as well. 30 neither will be deployed. 31, same story as 29. Now Nino should be promoted and can actually heal, creating some "free" exp between arena fights and keeping everyone fresh. At this point, Nino's combat in practical terms is actually better than Jaffar's because the Light Brand is pretty crap compared to Anima. Jaffar can overkill enemies more in 1-range, but overkill doesn't gain anything, and good 1-2 range does. Not to mention Bolting and maybe even Unlock have utility.

Karla did nothing except help massage the RNG by consuming RNs through combat. There is some psychological pleasure value in leveling her up rather than fighting with a capped lvl 20 unit during 32.

For your interest, the final chart, assuming our fifth member doesn't show up and overturn it.

Lacking Warp and Hector carriers lost me quite a bit in 30, 32, and 32x, but it wasn't enough to erase my lead. I'd like the final positions to get even closer, and hopefully my new auction system will succeed there. The basic idea of it is do determine how each player values their own team relative to the average of other players' teams, use that margin as the value of satisfaction, then set handicaps to exactly equalize satisfaction. In other words, the allocation will maximized net expected margin of victory, then the handicaps will equalize individual expected margin of victory. I've tested it on the data from the previous three auctions as well as randomly generated data and the results look really nice imo. I'll explain more when I actually make the post.

Probably next I'll try FE8 again. Judging how midgame Marcus was not overcentralizing to the bids, I wonder about releasing Seth starting from chapter 7 or something, and also making Myrrh and the secondary Lord non-free to see what they're worth. That would make 31 units, but either a single blank team slot or freeing the 3 worst units would make the number exactly divisible by four again.

Sturm · August 8, 2018

Nice, you finished and you managed to hold onto your lead without a flier, a Warper, or anyone to carry Hector, I'm impressed! Did you consider giving the Body Ring/Boots to Bartre to allow him to carry Hector?

I originally thought you would need to rely on Nino reaching Warp but when I remembered that chapter 28 is considered a rout map that obviously puts pay to that idea, I'd say it's pretty doable if not for that rule. I think it's pretty notable that the only map where you really lost a lot of turns is VoD, other than that the lack of a Flier/Warp user didn't seem to matter that much, lack of flier would have made a big difference in Chapter 23 as well if not for NPC!Hawkeye special delivery. The fact you only lost one turn on Cog and drew even on Sands of Time with my team, which I think was pretty clearly the best late game team, isn't something I would have expected.

On 05/08/2018 at 10:35 PM, JudgeWargrave said:

Bartre (3.06) was actually fantastic. Like Matt, he helped immensely when he was 1/3 of the entire team, and he was no slouch in the late game either. It took some time to get his speed up, but soon enough he was doubling everything he needed to. I dare say he saved as many turns as Raven could have, if not more, after Raven's join time. Unlike Raven, he has 1-2 range before promotion, and can promote earlier for an extra move and even better combat. Plus, of course, he saves turns before Raven even exists. Considering Raven went for 6.2, I'm very satisfied with Bartre.

I hadn't really considered how much Raven cost me, that was definitely a mistake on my part going anywhere near that high for him and probably cost me. I kind of just pulled numbers out of my head and went with my gut feeling because I wasn't sure what sort of values would make sense. The fact he cost me more than Oswin, Rath, Eliwood and Isadora is just stupid now I think about it. I will say that on a team that was less good he would probably have much more value, say on amg's team, but on my team he was nearly useless because of how many mounts I had, in fact the only time I can particularly remember him doing stuff was on Cog and even then I think I probably could have got around it somehow. A lot of the time I think I could get the same turn count even just working a unit down, so I agree Bartre/Dorcas would be worth more for sure, hindsight 20/20 I guess.

I suppose the problem? (not really sure if necessarily a problem) feature i guess of this style, is that without knowing who you already have on your team there's no way to build synergy or more accurately to avoid redundancy. I think this is most notably a problem with Athena's team, most obviously having two potential Warp/Rescue users is superfluous, I don't think that ever saves turns, VoD is the only map I can think were it might save a turn, I guess you could look at in the sense that it means less Staff users for others whereas usually everyone will get a Staff user. The other thing though that I think is less obvious is having early Marcus makes Lowen a lot less useful imo, without Marcus Lowen will be the go to unit for early game so he's going to get very overlevelled but Marcus just does everything making him much weaker, in itself that's not a huge issue but it means you are a unit down after Marcus leaves which is were I think the difficulty lies. Maybe early/late Marcus needs some adjustment?

On 05/08/2018 at 10:35 PM, JudgeWargrave said:

Wil (0.37) was OK. Can't complain too much about virtually free. There are a few places in the game where the lack of 1-range is irrelevant, and the ability to use ballista is occasionally helpful. At least Wil has the courtesy to show up with 2/3 of the game remaining rather than 1/3 like Louise (2.01).

At the very least Rebecca/Wil can one turn Lloyd so I guess that means they're worth at least one and Rebecca has near perfect availability, sometimes it's the little guy that makes the diffrence. :Amelia:

On 05/08/2018 at 10:35 PM, JudgeWargrave said:

Sain (5.05) was clearly important throughout the run. The fact that I got him at such a price exposes a bit of a flaw of the bidding system, but don't worry--I have a better system rolling out for the next one

This certainly seems like a major problem, the fact you got Sain more than three points cheaper than Athena got Kent when everyone bid almost the same for them (makes sense seeing as they're basically the same unit), hopefully this new system fixes that.

On 05/08/2018 at 10:35 PM, JudgeWargrave said:

Dart (1.81), I also felt was undervalued. Absolutely everyone else rated him below Hawkeye, for instance, but that just makes no sense to me. There was never a point where having Hawkeye's stats instead of Dart's would have saved me any turns at all.

I agree with you Dart is better in a draft context, I partly based my guesses on how they're valued in a ranked setting because I wasn't really sure what values to give people so I kind of used that as a measuring stick also because I'm not super familiar with FE7 which I think caused me to miss rate units like Raven (over) and Dart (under) as well as some others. For example I way overestimated how useful Raven's combat would be when it was completely unnecessary.

On 05/08/2018 at 10:35 PM, JudgeWargrave said:

Lacking Warp and Hector carriers lost me quite a bit in 30, 32, and 32x, but it wasn't enough to erase my lead. I'd like the final positions to get even closer, and hopefully my new auction system will succeed there. The basic idea of it is do determine how each player values their own team relative to the average of other players' teams, use that margin as the value of satisfaction, then set handicaps to exactly equalize satisfaction. In other words, the allocation will maximized net expected margin of victory, then the handicaps will equalize individual expected margin of victory. I've tested it on the data from the previous three auctions as well as randomly generated data and the results look really nice imo. I'll explain more when I actually make the post.

That sounds very complex :Lute: , I'll give it a go though. I think also it should be kept in mind that final turn count should get closer once people get a better idea of how much units are worth, if I hadn't majorly overbid on Raven the gap between us would probably only be a turn or two.

JudgeWargrave · August 9, 2018

59 minutes ago, Sturm said:

Did you consider giving the Body Ring/Boots to Bartre to allow him to carry Hector?

Ah, I did not, but I should have. The problem is I don't think that speeds up 30 because Nils can't keep up with 8 move Bartre alone, but ferrying Nils forward with a 10 move canto unit allows Hector to always move twice for effectively 10 move as well. Plus taking the boots from Marcus likely loses a turn for 29 Cog and 31 Sands, and definitely loses a turn for 32x considering how much movement and canto Marcus uses. Giving Bartre the Body Ring and no Boots to just carry Hector a bit farther in 32 VoD might save a turn though, I should have considered it.

4 hours ago, Sturm said:

This certainly seems like a major problem, the fact you got Sain more than three points cheaper than Athena got Kent when everyone bid almost the same for them (makes sense seeing as they're basically the same unit), hopefully this new system fixes that.

Funny how you can have an idea that seems fool-proof in your mind, then the first use case immediately exposes a glaring flaw. Did I say funny, I meant embarrassing, especially because the system I designed was flawed to my own benefit in this case....I must have only been paying attention to the bids and total handicaps when the race began, because I'm pretty sure I noticed Sain's individual price for the first time when doing the unit reviews. I was like "wtf, that can't be right, what were the bids?....oh, that's why that happened....I'm dumb."

The unit assignment system tried to allocate equal sized teams with minimal chapter join gaps and promotion delay while also giving units to the highest bidder. Of course these are sometimes incompatible goals, so compromises must be made. Because four people had very similar bids for Sain, any one of them might have got him for the sake of one of those compromises. Since the price of a unit is determined by its owner's bid and the next lowest bid, normally a cluster of close bids would result in a value near the cluster, but I didn't anticipate specifically a cluster of bids with a steep drop to the lowest bid, allowing the 4th place person to get the unit while paying a price largely influenced by a 5th placed bid nowhere near the 1st bid. Rath's price was kind of the same thing in reverse (4 similar bids and one much higher bid), except that's scenario I actually foresaw and intended. To be fair to myself, it is still much more likely for the 1st place bid to get the unit than the 4th.

Anyway, the new system doesn't do that, because it bases handicaps on "expected margin of victory". My bid on Sain informs my expected margin of victory, so if I get Sain, my handicap will increase in proportion to that bid. Another person's low bid will not give me Sain at a lower price. (Except in a relative sense, because that person's expected margin of victory over me will be higher if they rate Sain lower, therefore their handcap increases as their rating of opponents' units decreases. But the other player's expected margin of victory is only influenced by their own bids on Sain here, not another player's, including mine. In effect, it is as if each player who doesn't get a unit gets a negative handicap for not having that unit, proportional to their bid and inversely proportional to the number of opponents. Thus the highest bidding non-winner gets the largest compensation.) In this case, the impact of Sain on my handicap relative to each person would have been not 5.05, but greater than 8, except for amg who would receive a smaller benefit under the logic that amg's bid indicates a far lower advantage to me from Sain.

I'm working on a document thoroughly covering all the math involved and justification for it with formula derivations and diagrams. I'll post that as well as the program that executes it and what the output looks like on old auctions. Of course, it shouldn't be necessary to understand all of it in order to make intelligent bids, just like you don't need to understand programming to use a website. But I'm sure people would rather have the inner workings exposed than take my word about how fair they are ;):

4 hours ago, Sturm said:

is that without knowing who you already have on your team there's no way to build synergy or more accurately to avoid redundancy

That and route splits are the two biggest challenges I'd like to tackle. Fortunately I know the ideal way to handle them. Unfortunately the ideal is not practical because it involves A. separate bids for each unit on each route and B. the players submitting a comprehensive list of penalties associated with every possible pair of potentially redundant units. I do, however, have a much more general way of handling redundancy measured purely by how much above (or below) average a team is, that does not require any additional input from the players.

4 hours ago, Sturm said:

I think also it should be kept in mind that final turn count should get closer once people get a better idea of how much units are worth

Yep, for me the collective learning process is half the fun honestly. My value on the units have always been a lot different before and after each auction.

fe7 FE7 HNM auction #3, A Marcus Divided

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