Shadow Mir Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, ping said: Saying that the weapon triangle is a completely subjective statement which I very much disagree with. Calling SD gameplay "barebones" and implying that it didn't update or add to the original ranks somewhere between "gross generalization", "extreme exaggeration", and "flimsy falsehood". By the Goddesses, you didn't bother to read what I posted carefully, did you?? I didn't say anything of the second sort (the closest I got was saying that Shadow Dragon itself was barebones). And exactly why do you disagree that adding the weapon triangle hurt the game?? Edited December 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivysalt Posted December 8, 2017 Author Share Posted December 8, 2017 Personally, if Shadow Dragon had New Mystery's additional preparations features (convos, training, item rewards) then it'd easily be my preferred of the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejohnmatthews Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 I prefer FE12 for gameplay/characters, FE11 for story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeruleanCyclone Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 FE12, it has my favorite gameplay in the series, has supports and the BSFE chapters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blue Feraligatr Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Fe 12 is my favorite fe game by far with a great difficulty though out. Fe 11 is mindless when Warp Skipping get going but it still has a great early game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ping Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 On 5.12.2017 at 9:40 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said: By the Goddesses, you didn't bother to read what I posted carefully, did you?? I didn't say anything of the second sort (the closest I got was saying that Shadow Dragon itself was barebones). And exactly why do you disagree that adding the weapon triangle hurt the game?? I apologize for the late answer - busy week - but I do not apologize for any misinterpretation of your post. Yes, I read it, and I have read it again to make sure that I do not have to step back from my statement. Frankly, your style of discussion is kind of irksome to me - there doesn't seem to be a "I do not like X" to you, it's always "X is objectively bad", with an underlying tone that suggests (at least to me, I do not know if it's intentional) that the other side doesn't understand the matter if they don't agree with you. It's similar here to the discussion about Garcia in the FE8 forums, where you're running in argumental circles just to keep up the narrative that there is zero positive aspects about him. But returning to SD: Yes, it has cut down on a great number of mechanics, but that is not intrinsically bad. Creating complexity out of a relatively simple ruleset is arguable more of an art than just throwing more and more obscure mechanics that make more and more difficult to understand where the eventual Numbers come from. And I'm saying that as someone who has put quite a lot of time in various 4X and grand strategy games, i.e. genres in which it's usually impossible to properly understand the underlying mechanics without spending a few hours on the internet. You might (and probably will) disagree, but I find FE6, FE11 (and, from what I can see, FE15) to be important steps in the series; less because of what they add, and more because of what the do not keep. Neither FE6 nor FE11 are easier than their predecessors, even though they are more mechanically simple, but they manage to create difficulty through clever map design or enemy placement. About the weapon triangle: I can't answer your question because I have no fucking idea what your problem with it is. You've written a few time that it's shit/hurts the game/is a bad addition, but you never bothered to specify why. Anyway, I will not continue the discussion with you because as I said, I find your rhetorical style a bit irritating, and given how annoyed your answers to my posts sound, I suppose that feeling might be mutual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, ping said: I apologize for the late answer - busy week - but I do not apologize for any misinterpretation of your post. Yes, I read it, and I have read it again to make sure that I do not have to step back from my statement. Frankly, your style of discussion is kind of irksome to me - there doesn't seem to be a "I do not like X" to you, it's always "X is objectively bad", with an underlying tone that suggests (at least to me, I do not know if it's intentional) that the other side doesn't understand the matter if they don't agree with you. It's similar here to the discussion about Garcia in the FE8 forums, where you're running in argumental circles just to keep up the narrative that there is zero positive aspects about him. But returning to SD: Yes, it has cut down on a great number of mechanics, but that is not intrinsically bad. Creating complexity out of a relatively simple ruleset is arguable more of an art than just throwing more and more obscure mechanics that make more and more difficult to understand where the eventual Numbers come from. And I'm saying that as someone who has put quite a lot of time in various 4X and grand strategy games, i.e. genres in which it's usually impossible to properly understand the underlying mechanics without spending a few hours on the internet. You might (and probably will) disagree, but I find FE6, FE11 (and, from what I can see, FE15) to be important steps in the series; less because of what they add, and more because of what the do not keep. Neither FE6 nor FE11 are easier than their predecessors, even though they are more mechanically simple, but they manage to create difficulty through clever map design or enemy placement. About the weapon triangle: I can't answer your question because I have no fucking idea what your problem with it is. You've written a few time that it's shit/hurts the game/is a bad addition, but you never bothered to specify why. Anyway, I will not continue the discussion with you because as I said, I find your rhetorical style a bit irritating, and given how annoyed your answers to my posts sound, I suppose that feeling might be mutual. If I sounded exasperated, it's because your putting words in my mouth accomplished just that. Anyways, WRT Garcia, I didn't try to make it sound like he has nothing going for him - just that he doesn't have very much going for him (literally the only positives I can think of that he has are availability, high HP, and high Strength). So that's naught but yet another instance of you putting words in my mouth... if you're aiming to piss me off, then congratulations, because it's working. Anyways, I dunno about you, but when it comes to determining who's a good unit, HP and Strength aren't the main stats that I look at - and they most definitely don't make up for Garcia having mediocre to bad everything else, especially Speed. I'm also not so naive, idealistic, or optimistic as to try to see the best in everything - sometimes there just is no best to see... Going back to SD, I had said long ago that Shadow Dragon was a massive step backwards relative to the series at large, and even considering some of the improvements it brought to the table, I see no reason to think any differently. It also felt rather archaic for a remake, in no small part BECAUSE it cut out a bunch of features. Its implementation of the new stuff (I'm not talking about mechanics changes) DOES NOT HELP its case at all - it was mostly poorly done, especially the extra characters. Anyways, as for the weapon triangle, I see it as yet another design flaw because they didn't bother to change how common certain weapon types were - lances are still dominant in the enemy ranks, and axes are still virtually nonexistent (after chapter 4, at least). TL;DR Shadow Dragon destroyed any hope I had in trusting IS with any other FE remakes. Edited December 14, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxyGrandpa Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Though the DS games are flawed, I still enjoyed them immensely. Both games featured a lot of nice QoL changes, a balanced class system that gave most classes in the game some niche / advantage over one another, great music, and overall very good map design. Biggest flaw I have with the games personally is the small size of the bottom screen since you can't see your character's full movement range, the lack of eyes on the battle models (and map sprites in Shadow Dragon), and the lack of green units. Personally, I'm a bigger fan of NMotE due to the greater effort it places on developing the games characters and lore compared to shadow dragon. I liked the changes the developers made to a handful of maps , as it gave the game better enemy density and made the weapon triangle more important. The additional elements added that helped develop the story such as the BS archenea saga maps and the DLC maps were great as well. That being said, I wasn't a fan of the pacing in the story compared to Shadow Dragon. The events in the later half of the story felt rushed, with marth saving one kingdom after another in rapid succession, wheras in Shadow Dragon, there was at least one chapter dedicated to him approaching the kingdom before he could even save it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FootwaySublong Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 Shit. Haven't even played FE12, gonna say 11. Except that the game forces you to use General Sedgar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivysalt Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 Definitely give 12 a try sometime! It improves on the formula of 11 gameplay-wise quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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