How Should IS Fix the Power Creep?

[LuxSpes]

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The meta is determined by the available spread of character stats and skills. Saying that the meta is the source of the problems is identical to saying that the pool of characters is the source of the problems. You don't create a meta and then fit characters to it, you create characters and the meta naturally forms based on mathematical optimization.

 

CYL first place winners have +10 to their growth rate total, which is really no more or less arbitrary than any other class modifier. That's the only difference they have with other units in their class. It still follows the rules, albeit doing so by adding a new class modifier to the game.

I think the 'problem' with the meta has less to do with OP characters and more to do with skill availability. For anyone who isn't a whale, there are a ton of skills that allow people to use a more diverse range of characters. Armors are pigeonholed to enemy phase units with little player phase presence due to their horrible movement, but Armor March and Guidance allows them to be more versatile. However, the 2 skills are locked to 5* units, meaning that if you missed out on them on their banners, you have no way of giving your armor units more movement. 

Same with interesting skills like Wrathful Staff, Dazzling Staff, Shield Pulse, Infantry Pulse, Close/Distant Defense or even Hone Fliers, whose counterparts are easily found on 3-4 units and some of those are even worst off since they were only available on seasonal characters.

[Sire]

Regarding Elicina, I don't see an issue with her being a power creep user, especially if the focus is on her legendary weapon, Amiti.

We already have "Legendary Killer Weapons" (16 MT || -1 Special Charge Cooldown). Elincia simply has a "Legendary Brave Weapon" (11 MT, -2 SPD) All she has is a legendary variant of an existing weapon type. The bonus for Elincia is a lessened SPD penalty, as the bonus MT is innate to all "Legendary Weapons."

Killer Weapon+ [11 MT || Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1).]
Hauteclere [16 MT || Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1).]

Brave Weapon+ [8 MT || Spd-5. Attack twice when initiating combat.]
Amiti [11 MT || Spd-2. Attack twice when initiating combat.]

Now, exceptions can be made for the Brave Tome, Dire Thunder, which keeps the -5 SPD penalty despite it's "Legendary" status. I write this off because it is a Magical Weapon and it targets RES, which many units are weak to.

Then again, I may be biased because I made a character "similar" to Elicina's stat spread in the Create-A-Hero Thread a long while back (Crystal). My "Brave Legendary" has 10 MT but no SPD penalty compared to Amiti, and Amiti is probably more balanced than my proposed weapon stats.

[sirmola]

THe introduction of units that are strictly better than other units does not imply power creep, if the initial unit was bad to begin with. It is only if the initial unit is good that this is power creep. Similarly, i heard that killer weapons are one of the worse weapon types (although I have not gotten far enough to test that), so the existance of slayer weapons is not nesesairaly power creep if all it does is make them usable competitavly. There is another way to prevent power creep: introduce skills and weapons that are qualitativly different (like isted of introducing weapons that are like other weapons, only buffed, introduce weapons that come with attached skills that you have not attached to a weapon yet..

[MrSmokestack]

Oh, this topic again.

I'm not sure what leaves people so concerned about power creep now, since it's been prevalent in the game for the past several months. You could even argue that it started as early as the Sibling Bonds banner, which gave us the infamous Dire Thunder duo, as well as Klein to a lesser extent--a base game unit that functioned at the level of a post-SI unit.

It happened again during the Spring Festival banner when Camilla became the game's first mage flier, weakening every other option for a flier team almost immediately. And again during Bridal Blessings, when Bride Cordelia and her 35/35 offenses made her the best Brave Bow user in the game by a substantial margin...only to be powercreeped herself just a few months later when Lyn came back on a horse.

People like to point toward Alm/Celica's Army as the first major examples of powercreep, but as you can see above it really is a process that has gone on for much longer than that.

While Slaying weapons do have a flat Mt bonus that would irritate players that spent 20,000 feathers to give a unit a weaker Killer version before their release, they remain weaker than Wo Dao / Wrath / Brave sets due to their inherent enemy phase nature, so in my opinion it does not constitute power creep. But I digress.

The best way to improve viability has always been to make weaker options stronger, not by making stronger options weaker. Your units are only as strong as you're willing to make them, and the tools that stronger units enjoy, so long as they are not locked behind SI restrictions, are free for "lower-tiered" units to play with too.

Power creep is a natural part of any metagame. Without it, there would be very little to retain player interest and the game would eventually die out, no matter how popular it is.

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

I think the 'problem' with the meta has less to do with OP characters and more to do with skill availability.

You can say that for a lot of things, though.

A friend of mine who has been playing since launch has no access to Raudhrblade due to never having pulled Tharja before (despite the fact that she is available as a 4-star pull) and even no access to Raudhrraven until very recently (despite the fact that Henry is available as a 3-star pull).

If you missed the Grand Hero Battles for Xander, Camus, and Ursula, you're basically SoL for them until their re-runs happen.

Bad luck and back timing happen, so availability will never not be an issue unless every skill is available from a non-time-limited free character, which is simply not going to happen.

Furthermore, the availability issue has nothing to do with power creep.

[Kruggov]

6 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

Same with interesting skills like Wrathful Staff, Dazzling Staff, Shield Pulse, Infantry Pulse, Close/Distant Defense or even Hone Fliers, whose counterparts are easily found on 3-4 units and some of those are even worst off since they were only available on seasonal characters.

Hell, even Distant Counter/Close counter. I mean, I play since the day one and I never drawn either Hector or Takumi.

[Arcanite]

You don't "fix" power creep

You let it happen ;)

It's a gacha game anyway. Everyone knew this was gonna happen. Even so, they're giving us good units for free anyway (Like Lyn, and eventually Black Knight) so it makes no difference to me

As long as you can go with the flow and spend your Orbs on things you need, you can power creep your whole roster heh

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

17 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

  Klein 

Can we remove this guy from the game?

 

Kthx

 

More on topic, i honestly think the issue about "nature" of units is an interesting thing to talk about. Elincia is obvious topic, she's a Brave Melee hitting as hard as Chrom while having 33 speed, but at the end of the day.... she's a 2 Mov Braves.

Edited September 15, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Ice Dragon]

36 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Can we remove this guy from the game?

I need my 4-star Death Blow 3 fodder, though.

Klein is the weakest of the top-line archers. His only advantage over them is his starting skill set, which you can just as easily feed off to someone else who can use it better.

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, Arcanite said:

You don't "fix" power creep

You let it happen ;)

It's a gacha game anyway. Everyone knew this was gonna happen. Even so, they're giving us good units for free anyway (Like Lyn, and eventually Black Knight) so it makes no difference to me

As long as you can go with the flow and spend your Orbs on things you need, you can power creep your whole roster heh

there is no power creep tough.

Olde Lyn just got alot better because of Wrath 3 synergizing very well with her Legendary Weapon. I would say it Synergizes as good as Armads with Distant Counter on Hector. It basicly eliminates her Weakness (attack) below 50% when Sol Kattis Desperation kicks in, just like Hectors Aramads coupled with Distant Counter allows him to double counter units above 80% even tough he has horrible speed nullifying his 2 week spots to some degree: Movement range and Speed.

New Skills open up new possible builds for older units. The only thing stoping everyone to run such builds is Skill availability which will soften over time as seen on some skills.

[Arcanite]

16 minutes ago, Hilda said:

there is no power creep tough.

Olde Lyn just got alot better because of Wrath 3 synergizing very well with her Legendary Weapon. I would say it Synergizes as good as Armads with Distant Counter on Hector. It basicly eliminates her Weakness (attack) below 50% when Sol Kattis Desperation kicks in, just like Hectors Aramads coupled with Distant Counter allows him to double counter units above 80% even tough he has horrible speed nullifying his 2 week spots to some degree: Movement range and Speed.

New Skills open up new possible builds for older units. The only thing stoping everyone to run such builds is Skill availability which will soften over time as seen on some skills.

Then it looks like we have no problems then huh?

Now I want to do that build wth my Lyn :o

[sirmola]

7 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Power creep is a natural part of any metagame. Without it, there would be very little to retain player interest and the game would eventually die out, no matter how popular it is.

Magic: the gathering has been going on for, like 20 years without much power creep (partly because cards "expire" from the most common tournament format, which allows them to modulate difficulty levels, and partly because things that are accidentally too powerful get nerfed via errata,  or get banned altogether) THing is, neither of those solutions would go over well in this setting.

 Also, Extra credits did some realy interesting vidios on what is and is not power creep. the hearthstone video is especially interesting, because it deals speccaly with things that look like power creep but arn't, or that don't look like power creep that totaly are :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b3hDvRjJA

 

[Ae†her]

I think they could fix power creeping by increasing the viability of more skills and weapons for units, but only in a manner that can only benefit the player. For example, making Sanaki's Cymeline give Atk+4 to all allies regardless of range, or giving Hauteclere Def+2 or Atk+2 so it's not completely outclassed by Urvan, and somewhat things like Cursed Lance...etc.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

I need my 4-star Death Blow 3 fodder, though.

Klein is the weakest of the top-line archers. His only advantage over them is his starting skill set, which you can just as easily feed off to someone else who can use it better.

I wish we could just be able to inherit more than up to 3 skills at a time; it's such a waste. The only reason I haven't gotten rid of my +Atk/-Def Klein is because his kit is so good, I just can't bare to give him up for just one skill set or weapon set.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Logos

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

14 minutes ago, sirmola said:

Magic: the gathering has been going on for, like 20 years without much power creep (partly because cards "expire" from the most common tournament format, which allows them to modulate difficulty levels, and partly because things that are accidentally too powerful get nerfed via errata,  or get banned altogether) THing is, neither of those solutions would go over well in this setting.

 Also, Extra credits did some realy interesting vidios on what is and is not power creep. the hearthstone video is especially interesting, because it deals speccaly with things that look like power creep but arn't, or that don't look like power creep that totaly are :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b3hDvRjJA

 

What was HS power creep again? The last one i remember that is EXTREMELY obvious is 2 Mana Discover Meteor

[sirmola]

Just now, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

What was HS power creep again? The last one i remember that is EXTREMELY obvious is 2 Mana Discover Meteor

The one they mention in the video is "piloted shredder", which was power creep of the accidental variety, although they also mentioned that the next set was full of counters to it, so i don't know how that worked out (this video is two years old).

[Asumi]

Imho this is a nonexistant issue for now. 

Of 3 units released, ONE is the best in her role (Red flier brave user): well, the competition is only day 1 fliers with notorious infamous stat spread, and even than, I'll take Palla over Elincia anyday anyway just for the way better enemy phase, since for playerphases we already have cherche and summer corrin. She has crazy good stat spread, yes, she has crazy good weapons: yes, she is strong, yes? Does she breaks the game? No. Does she make the game all of a sudden a cakewalk? No? Does she make Arena unsufferable? No. 

Do you even need a specific counter to deal with her? hell no.
You know who does, though? Reinhardt. Yep, that guy that came 5 months ago. I'll take 3000 elincia over 1 reinhardt, anyday.
So yeah, Elincia's powercreep is totally natural and fine, it makes new unit more interesting, it lets people play stronger combos and lets other people still have fun with the game.

 

slaying weapons,on the other hand, are an issue, but that's really the only thing of this banner who could realistically offend someone, and even than: it's not news. 

 

 

PS: f. bowlyn 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bartozio]

I honestly fail to see why power creep bothers people so much in this game. Good units are going to stay good even other units do their job better.

I mean, sure Brave!Lyn is now the best brave bow user, but does that mean that Klein someone put all that work in is suddenly useless? No, he can still do the exact same job as before. If it was PvP it might matter a little, but all you need your units to be capable of in this game is destroying AI controlled enemy units.

The only thing that might really change for you is you now need to able to plan around killing more possible enemy units, but the degree of improvement is low enough that it shouldn't have that much of an impact (it only makes shaky checks even more shaky).

I mean, if they suddenly bring out a unit with 40/40 offence or something, then it becomes a different story, but if it's going to stay at this level then they can keep power creeping all they want in my opinion.

Just my two cent.

1 hour ago, Arcanite said:

Then it looks like we have no problems then huh?

Now I want to do that build wth my Lyn :o

Still don't think you need that Nephenee now? :P

[Ice Dragon]

15 minutes ago, Logos said:

or giving Hauteclere Def+2 or Atk+2 so it's not completely outclassed by Urvan

Except that Hauteclere is not outclassed by Urvan because no unit in the game has access to both. There is no context where the two are in direct comparison with each other, and there is no case where the two are competing against each other for one to render the other less desirable. (In other words, any relevant comparison between Hauteclere and Urvan is necessarily a comparison between the character builds using those weapons and not a comparison between the weapons themselves.)

If I made a weapon "Hauteclere EX", gave it the stats +47 Atk, +33 Spd, +32 Def, +22 Res, and locked it to an axe flier with base stats 40/0/0/0/0, it's actually functionally identical to Hauteclere (if you remove Michalis out of the picture).

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

3 minutes ago, sirmola said:

The one they mention in the video is "piloted shredder", which was power creep of the accidental variety, although they also mentioned that the next set was full of counters to it, so i don't know how that worked out (this video is two years old).

From what i know what ended up happening is Pilloted Shredder proceed to utterly dominate 4 slot until he's removed from the game completely. IIRC he's still pretty dominant in the older wild(no rotation) format when they introduce a card that synergizes with it so well that dominates the wild meta

I lowkey dislike the example they took for that video though. The part where he said its unlikely for a future release to synergizes with them is kind of eh because the example used was not a particularly complex card.

 

The second video is basically some sort of description on why Slayer Lance probably isn't a power creep with the whole "dev team tried to experiment with failed older project to put it in the right place" aspect. After all why give a shit about "power creep" when it fucking sucks?

Although its kind of interesting that there are some games where the intentional power creep where you experimentally boost stuff higher in the power scale become disastrous because the previous version was a terrible design that is weak because of their numbers, in which case doing that can be pretty bad. Something that Gamefreak basically did for pokemon and why Mega Beedrill is the worst thing to ever happen to that game

 

Like i'm pretty sure at this point the only broken pokemon they haven't created a broken version of are Bidoof and Chatot, the later is hilarious since its nearly impossible for gamefreak to mess this up what with Chatot being banned completely in every official metagame. Even Smogon's meme creative metagame bans it.

[Ae†her]

20 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Except that Hauteclere is not outclassed by Urvan because no unit in the game has access to both. There is no context where the two are in direct comparison with each other, and there is no case where the two are competing against each other for one to render the other less desirable. (In other words, any relevant comparison between Hauteclere and Urvan is necessarily a comparison between the character builds using those weapons and not a comparison between the weapons themselves.)

If I made a weapon "Hauteclere EX", gave it the stats +47 Atk, +33 Spd, +32 Def, +22 Res, and locked it to an axe flier with base stats 40/0/0/0/0, it's actually functionally identical to Hauteclere (if you remove Michalis out of the picture).

Yeah, I knew I should've edited it to phrase my earlier comment better. I meant specifically for legendary weapons, a lot of units are just straight up getting even better legendary weapons that outclasses others even though Legendary weapons in a way are meant to have their own unique effects. I simply thought ",Is not fair that units with their own legendary weapons have their own equally viable effects to one another?" In the end everything comes down to characters, and it just seems like they're intentionally giving better abilities (via legendary weapons and uninheritable skills) to units, limiting the viability of a lot units. If it happens this way there will be a lot of units with literally much better potential than others, and they'll in a way be outclassed. Yes. Michalis is a flier, different Stats than Brave Ike..etc. (although it's clear Ike literally has his stats, but with a little more to everything except HP), but again it's just like the point of having a legendary weapon with the high Mt and unique special effect is going down into the trash bin. I guess you can say I have an agenda with these kinds of things, but I say it's for a good cause. Really I just think it sucks a lot of the legendary weapons (even the killer weapons) are being out-shined by newer and more potent skills and weapons, and I just think it could be easily remedied with an update to balance things out.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Logos

[Arcanite]

23 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

Still don't think you need that Nephenee now? :P

I've already pulled 2 5 stars from this banner.... not pushing my luck heh

[Arthur97]

Okay, can someone explain why Brave Ike and Lyn supposedly have inflated stats yet Tobin still has a higher rating than my Ike? Even taking into account skills, he has a 2 point lead on Ike and even Spring Chrom pulls out ahead in stats when adjusting for weapons and with weapons, Brave Lucina is only 1 point less (yes, her weapon gives def + 3, but that might as well be a part of her since why would you ever change that weapon?).

[Arcanite]

2 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Okay, can someone explain why Brave Ike and Lyn supposedly have inflated stats yet Tobin still has a higher rating than my Ike? Even taking into account skills, he has a 2 point lead on Ike and even Spring Chrom pulls out ahead in stats when adjusting for weapons and with weapons, Brave Lucina is only 1 point less (yes, her weapon gives def + 3, but that might as well be a part of her since why would you ever change that weapon?).

Ike and Lyn are first place finishers so they got special treatment 

Tobin counts as a villager like Donnel

[Arthur97]

Just now, Arcanite said:

Ike and Lyn are first place finishers so they got special treatment 

Tobin counts as a villager like Donnel

I get the why, but Ike isn't really special stat wise as far as I can tell. Like I said, even bunny Chrom has a higher stat total, just a weaker weapon. Don't get me wrong, I don't like that they supposedly beefed the winners just because they were winners, but I'm not seeing it in Ike's stats.

[Bartozio]

1 minute ago, Arthur97 said:

Okay, can someone explain why Brave Ike and Lyn supposedly have inflated stats yet Tobin still has a higher rating than my Ike? Even taking into account skills, he has a 2 point lead on Ike and even Spring Chrom pulls out ahead in stats when adjusting for weapons and with weapons, Brave Lucina is only 1 point less (yes, her weapon gives def + 3, but that might as well be a part of her since why would you ever change that weapon?).

Tobin has a more balanced stat spread and is considered a trainee unit. There's several units like that in the game.

Spring Chrom has lower total amount of stats (3 points less), although his natural A-skill gives him 4 extra stat points. Counting extra stat points  from skills and weapons is kind of weird, since while it might seem Chrom has better stats, he uses his A-slot to get better points, while Ike has a different (better) skill there.

The same applies for CYL Lucina. Yes, she gets extra speed from her weapon, but all CYL weapons have two effects. One of those for Lucina is extra speed. Ike's weapon also gets two effects, they just don't affect his stats.