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Is the Laguz-Alliance justified in starting a war?


Noni
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I understand, that they want justice for the Heron-Genocide, but even though Begnion killed the Messengers, they didn't seemed to do anything, that would bring Gallia itself in Danger and the ones that would suffer the most from a war, are the normal soldiers and not necesseralily the Culprits behind the Heron-Genocide.

The Thing in 3-4, where they rejected the Possibility of a Peace Treaty, because their Soldiers are too blood-thirsty for that, makes this Thing even worse for me.

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Killing a messenger is often a deceleration of war by itself. 

Also if Begnion is led by people who orchestrated the genocide of one Laguz clan for no particular reason then the other Laguz tribes that neighbor Begnion can never really be assured of their safety until those people are gone from power. 

The Hawks are rather justified not to accept peace with the people who butchered their island too. 

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While I am absolutely not happy how everyone was so quick to jump at the opportunity to burn all the bridges that had been build two years prior, killing an ambassador is a very huge deal. ...and one that probably shouldn't have happened offscreen. Not sure what IS was thinking with that whole "Btw, there is a war now" approach.

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9 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

While I am absolutely not happy how everyone was so quick to jump at the opportunity to burn all the bridges that had been build two years prior, killing an ambassador is a very huge deal. ...and one that probably shouldn't have happened offscreen. Not sure what IS was thinking with that whole "Btw, there is a war now" approach.

I agree with your thoughts. About the off-screen part, the game suffered from the "show don't tell" problem. Especially if this is going to  affect the rest of the story. What I would have done is  Rafiel explaining to the Laguz royals what really happened to the Serenes Forest in real time during act 2. Then they send messengers that soon be killed causing the war.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, they are but it was a dumb move. Assume that all goes well for the Laguz Alliance such as Daein not intervening and Naesala not betraying them. While the Laguz Alliance could take control of large parts of Begnion, they are still going to have a hard time against the powerful central army. Also, they have no safe zones in Begnion. The people of Begnion loath the Laguz so expect some setbacks in areas that were previously secured. The more they advance, the more they stretch themselves thin. Their only hope was for Sanaki to get freed and then rebel against the Senate. Though if there are laguz invaders, most of the populace would side with the Senate. Also, they completely ignored the medallion. Apparently reviving a dark god is of no concern to them. 

Edited by Icelerate
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On 9/15/2017 at 2:11 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Also if Begnion is led by people who orchestrated the genocide of one Laguz clan for no particular reason

Wasn't the Serenes Massacre intended as a cover for Misaha's assassination?

On 9/15/2017 at 2:51 PM, Jingle Jangle said:

What I would have done is  Rafiel explaining to the Laguz royals what really happened to the Serenes Forest in real time during act 2.

My interpretation of Part 2 has always been for all the serious stuff that happens during it, it's supposed to be relatively light compared to the depths of Part 1 and Part 3. For them to explain it all then would have made the Part 2 heavier. Plus it'd be something of a total disconnect from what's happening in Crimea and possibly put too much mandatory to view text into P2.

 

10 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Well, they are but it was a dumb move. Assume that all goes well for the Laguz Alliance such as Daein not intervening and Naesala not betraying them. While the Laguz Alliance could take control of large parts of Begnion, they are still going to have a hard time against the powerful central army. Also, they have no safe zones in Begnion. The people of Begnion loath the Laguz so expect some setbacks in areas that were previously secured. The more they advance, the more they stretch themselves thin.

I don't think they'd need to conquer Begnion, only dealt a heavy decisive blow that'd force them to sue for peace. After which, the Laguz Alliance would be able to extract proper compensation for the Serenes Massacre and the messenger killing. So basically, 3-3 but much bigger, and yes, the attempt to make peace after 3-3 was wasted, I, Ike and Zelgius agree on this. However, would the Senate have really agreed to this when they sought Laguz eradication deep in their hearts?

The LA didn't even know Sanaki was being actually held captive for until she showed up, it was only a guess prior to that. As for the Dark God awakening, there is a slight excuse in there having been a continental war which lasted from 432-478 in Tellius's history, somehow, I don't know how it didn't happen, but the Medallion never broke then. The LA-Begnion War by comparison takes less than a year.

 

On 9/15/2017 at 2:27 PM, BrightBow said:

While I am absolutely not happy how everyone was so quick to jump at the opportunity to burn all the bridges that had been build two years prior,

The Senate silently overthrew Sanaki, and they hadn't built any bridges with Gallia and Phoenicis, only the Apostle had. The LA did build its half of the bridges, so yes, they're culpable on that front.

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TBH, the whole war in Radiant Dawn was pretty irrational for the most part.

The Senate in Begnion were racist, and wanted to destroy the Laguz. Also, the Senate appeared to be aware of the curse of Lehran's Medallion, so they were probably fine with Ashera placing judgment on the world because they believed they would saved (partially true). You know how crazy super religious types can get.

Meanwhile, the Laguz Alliance wanted revenge for the Herons, but their motivations can also be seen as self-defense. If Begnion was able to wipe out almost an entire clan, it would only be a matter of time before they start to target the others. Phoenicis and Kilvas would especially be in danger, due to their geography being closer to Begnion than the other clans.

As for Lehran's Medallion, I doubt most of the people were aware of the Medallion's curse, and were already gung ho on the war idea. 

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5 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Also, the Senate appeared to be aware of the curse of Lehran's Medallion

Nope. I don't think so:

Ike vs Lekain

Lekain: Tah ha ha! Laughable mercenaries! Sanaki could certainly have chosen better allies. If only she had sided with me, she wouldn’t be damned now. Oh well…
Ike: Yeah, whoever chose you as an ally has had better days, too. So who is it? Who’s pulling your strings?
Lekain: Pulling my strings? What are you saying? I alone have been chosen to protect her! I masterminded the plan to resurrect the goddess and become Ashera’s chosen one! It is my right! Mine alone!
Ike: Really? I didn’t see you around when the galdr of release was sung to the medallion…
Lekain: What medallion? What nonsense are you talking about? [emphasis mine]
Ike: Wow… You don’t have any idea what’s going on, do you, “mastermind”? I’m just wasting my time.
Lekain: You… You! Urghh! I am Lekain, Duke of Gaddos! The one and only!

 

If the Vice-Minister and leader of the Senate didn't know, I doubt anyone else in the Senate did that mattered.

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16 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Nope. I don't think so:

Ike vs Lekain

Lekain: Tah ha ha! Laughable mercenaries! Sanaki could certainly have chosen better allies. If only she had sided with me, she wouldn’t be damned now. Oh well…
Ike: Yeah, whoever chose you as an ally has had better days, too. So who is it? Who’s pulling your strings?
Lekain: Pulling my strings? What are you saying? I alone have been chosen to protect her! I masterminded the plan to resurrect the goddess and become Ashera’s chosen one! It is my right! Mine alone!
Ike: Really? I didn’t see you around when the galdr of release was sung to the medallion…
Lekain: What medallion? What nonsense are you talking about? [emphasis mine]
Ike: Wow… You don’t have any idea what’s going on, do you, “mastermind”? I’m just wasting my time.
Lekain: You… You! Urghh! I am Lekain, Duke of Gaddos! The one and only!

 

If the Vice-Minister and leader of the Senate didn't know, I doubt anyone else in the Senate did that mattered.

Oh shoot I got CLOCKT.

Good find.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/29/2017 at 1:00 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't think they'd need to conquer Begnion, only dealt a heavy decisive blow that'd force them to sue for peace. After which, the Laguz Alliance would be able to extract proper compensation for the Serenes Massacre and the messenger killing. So basically, 3-3 but much bigger, and yes, the attempt to make peace after 3-3 was wasted, I, Ike and Zelgius agree on this. However, would the Senate have really agreed to this when they sought Laguz eradication deep in their hearts?

The LA didn't even know Sanaki was being actually held captive for until she showed up, it was only a guess prior to that. As for the Dark God awakening, there is a slight excuse in there having been a continental war which lasted from 432-478 in Tellius's history, somehow, I don't know how it didn't happen, but the Medallion never broke then. The LA-Begnion War by comparison takes less than a year.

2

Well when they did attempt to make peace, the senators refused and forced the laguz alliance on the retreat. Though I guess the main reason this happened was that Skrimir was beaten by Zelgius or did they make peace after Skrimir was defeated? I don't remember the exact details and SF doesn't have them for some odd reason. 

Assuming Daein and Kilvas didn't join hands with Begnion due to the random and unpredictable blood pact, I don't think the laguz army occupying large parts of Begnion territory would necessarily lead to concessions. Central Begnion isn't a region that the LAA can hold on for too long considering how powerful the Begnion central army is and the fact it is in the dead centre of the country. The laguz allaince would probably be forced to retreat north of Ribahn river. After all, the main reason the laguz alliance advanced south of Ribahn river was because the GMs managed to divert the Begnion Central Army's attention away from the LAA. If the war continued perpetually, they wouldn't be able to keep the central army distracted for an extended period of time, forcing the laguz alliance to retreat to north of the river. After that, it would be a war of attrition which Begnion would win due to superior tech (siege tomes, ballistas, rewarp staves, etc.) and because they are fighting on the home front with knowledge about the countryside unlike the invasion force and due to angry Begnion citizens who'd be willing to fight to the death. In summary, due to the fact that the LAA doesn't have the means to keep their gains, I don't think they'd deliver a heavy decisive blow that would force Begnion to pursue peace.

Do you have any details of that continental war? I've always been interested in Tellius lore. 

From a plot perspective, I'm completely fine with the laguz going to war with Begnion unlike some people who think the conflict was contrived. I just don't think it was the smartest decision but the laguz don't always make smart decisions so it isn't out of character. 

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21 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Do you have any details of that continental war? I've always been interested in Tellius lore. 

We don't sadly, this is all we know. Just that the timeline says it happened, why it happened, and who fought. Nothing on how it was fought, but presumably (according to me) it entered a stalemate. Gallia couldn't invade, but couldn't be invaded because guerrilla tactics were the linchpin of Gallian warfare. Begnion was probably too stretched out to crush Daein and Kilvas completely, and invade Crimea or Phoenicis.

It was Begnion's war to lose, their goal was reestablishing continental hegemony, a high bar to set. Daein just had to stay alive and wait for Begnion to get tired, Crimean and Gallian intervention probably sealed the fate of Begnion's hopes. Ironically, Daein, the Laguz bigot nation, owes its independence partly to Laguz and Laguz friendly Beorc.

 https://serenesforest.net/general/timelines/path-of-radiance-radiant-dawn/official/

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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