DisobeyedCargo

Awakening/Fates hate?

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I've played awakening, and I though it was a good game. I have not played Fates, but the general mechanics seem similar to awakening. They don't seem like horrible games, But whenever I hear about these games, fans seem divided into either absolute love or hatred of these games. What reasons garners this extreme hatred towards these games?

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I'm not even sure, actually. This is coming from someone who hated a bit of the shift towards a more "fanservice-y" in some aspects, but for me, that's basically it. I basically started not caring about the games as well as somewhat bashing them for that, but I actually ended up highly appreciating them. Fates feels very "alien-like", at least in terms of it's mechanic (actually a pretty bold move on their part), but it becomes very rewarding since you can see the appeal in it's level-design from their ownwards, and even carried over to Heroes.

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Just different opinions, with a mix of nostalgia for the older fans.

Some will tell you that it's because those games turned FE into "Waifu Emblem".  I don't know if I believe that's 100% the issue, but I can see how people view it that way.  There are also those who felt Awakening dumbed down the difficulty I think, but Fates fixed that with CQ.  And I've heard some people complain about how the characters in those games are "too gimmicky", though at that point it's entirely subjective.

I think what the extremes of the divide really boil down to is elitism on both sides, but I think it only seems so bad because the people who complain will always be the loudest.  I'd like to imagine most people are like myself in that while I have favorites among the series I'm generally fine with the series as a whole, even if I criticize elements of any particular game.

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4 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

I'm not even sure, actually. This is coming from someone who hated a bit of the shift towards a more "fanservice-y" in some aspects, but for me, that's basically it. I basically started not caring about the games as well as somewhat bashing them for that, but I actually ended up highly appreciating them. Fates feels very "alien-like", at least in terms of it's mechanic (actually a pretty bold move on their part), but it becomes very rewarding since you can see the appeal in it's level-design from their ownwards, and even carried over to Heroes.

What exactly was that mechanic that made it very alien-like. Haven't played Fates.

 

that is a big complaint I have heard before, about the more fan serviceyness of them. But other than that I don't really see any other major reasons.

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2 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

What exactly was that mechanic that made it very alien-like. Haven't played Fates.

From (generally) no weapon uses count, varieted skills with awkward effects (in previous games, stuff was a lot more straightforward) as well as the addition of knife/shuriken users being very debuff-based. Stuff like that, just look at a gameplay.

2 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

that is a big complaint I have heard before, about the more fan serviceyness of them. But other than that I don't really see any other major reasons.

I think someone people dislike how easy Awakening was? Or at least, the disgusting potential amount of power creep you could have, since Pair Up was broken.

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1 minute ago, Soul~! said:

From (generally) no weapon uses count, varieted skills with awkward effects (in previous games, stuff was a lot more straightforward) as well as the addition of knife/shuriken users being very debuff-based. Stuff like that, just look at a gameplay.

I think someone people dislike how easy Awakening was? Or at least, the disgusting potential amount of power creep you could have, since Pair Up was broken.

Pair up I will fully admit is kinda broken. It made Apotheosis kinda easy.

 

ohhh okay. Didn't realize that started in Fates.

i also haven't noticed this kind of hate towards Echoes (which I am currently playing). Although that may just be because the game is still relatively new. 

 

I think that the ease in difficulty can be justified with how awakening was to be the last game in the series, so they wanted to make it easier so a wider audience could play and enjoy it without too much frustration. 

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Just now, DisobeyedCargo said:

I think that the ease in difficulty can be justified with how awakening was to be the last game in the series, so they wanted to make it easier so a wider audience could play and enjoy it without too much frustration. 

That's why you have multiple difficulty settings

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1 minute ago, Soul~! said:

That's why you have multiple difficulty settings

Good point. Kinda forgot about that. 

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Lunatic is actually a pretty mean stretch off of "Hard" Mode. Hard Mode may as well be the standard, and I don't think I'm the only one who started with it (at least from people who've played other FEs). Lunatic almost seems unfair, at least in the first chapters (you know, assuming you don't grind the shit out of the Avatar and basically solo with it).

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My main complaints about Awakening and Fates are the increased forced fanservice, the character designs generally being worse than in older FE games, the stories not being so great, and the gameplay kind of being dumbed down as mentioned before. And I agree with the characters being too gimmicky at times. I also don't like how it's now become the joke of "Waifu Emblem." That wasn't the FE I loved.

However, I do still like Fates to some degree. Just not so much Awakening.

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I love Conquest but I think Awakening is a bad game. 

My issues with that game include its awful map design (most of them are open maps, simple and bland with enemies scattered through it without any thought put behind their positioning) and the fact that the game is full of broken mechanincs. The easiest way to beat the game is by pairing up a pair of characters (mostly Robin and first Frederick then Chrom) and then having them demolish the entire game without doing anything. They can do it even on Lunatic, and in fact the game sort of forces you to get an overleveled Robin, and after that there's no challenge left in the game. I have beaten Awakening on Lunatic/Classic in less than three hours just by using frederick to feed Robin kills in the prologue and then everything suicide on him for the rest of the game, there's no strategy in it. The exp system in Awakening allows you to get way overleveled compared to the enemy, since you still get decent exp even if you're overleveled, and there are just so many enemies that you won't even get less overleveled, quite the opposite.

Fates (well, conquest) pretty much fixed all the issues I have with Awakening though.

Edited by Nobody

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I figured a big part of veteran complaints about Awakening boiled down to selling out, shifting in focus towards waifus and fanservice at the expense of good story and map design.  The busted nature of Pair Up in that game certainly didn't help.

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They're hated because there's only one thing worse than your favorite series being unpopular: your favorite series being popular.

I suppose that some (not all) players of the older games got sick of newer players praising Awakening, since it was the only FE that most newcomers played at first. Awakening was designed as a last ditch effort to make the series popular (which it succeeded at), and since it was meant to capture a new audience rather than appealing to the existing one (as that approach evidently was not working as well as Nintendo wanted), older players felt "left out" since the maps and plot were simplified. Or something like that. I was one of the people who got into the series through Awakening, so I guess my testimony is biased to some degree.

As for Fates it's just because the series is still popular, Birthright and Revelation inherit Awakening's "dumbed down" gameplay, and the plot apparently wasn't as good as people wanted.

Edited by Lightchao42

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49 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Just different opinions, with a mix of nostalgia for the older fans.

Some will tell you that it's because those games turned FE into "Waifu Emblem".  I don't know if I believe that's 100% the issue, but I can see how people view it that way.  There are also those who felt Awakening dumbed down the difficulty I think, but Fates fixed that with CQ.  And I've heard some people complain about how the characters in those games are "too gimmicky", though at that point it's entirely subjective.

I think what the extremes of the divide really boil down to is elitism on both sides, but I think it only seems so bad because the people who complain will always be the loudest.  I'd like to imagine most people are like myself in that while I have favorites among the series I'm generally fine with the series as a whole, even if I criticize elements of any particular game.

I'd have probably been able to provide thoughts, if they weren't just laid out like this already. Personally, my biggest gripe with Fates is that it felt rather hollow to me, Revelation even feeling like a full copy of Awakening but with a new coat of paint.

Every entry has a fantastic reason to be played. It's just up to the individuals to decide which entry is right for them.

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I feel that most of it comes down to elitism. Like, sure, there are valid points against Awakening and Fates but there are also valid points against literally every game ever made. But what they say is true, the vocal minority will always be the loudest. 

My opinion on the matter is that both games are fine. They have their strengths and weaknesses, just like every other game ever made. I'll also add that i see Genealgoy of the Holy War and Conquest as polar opposites. Genealogy of the Holy War has an amazing story but shitty gameplay. Conquest has a shitty story but amazing gameplay, probably the best in the series.

Fortunately for me, i care more about the characters than the story itself, which is why i like Awakening and Fates a lot. I found a lot of their characters memorable.

Speaking of story, that seems to be the biggest complaint regarding Fates in particular. Like, sure, the story is bad, but i've seen people outright refuse to play it because of the story. Even though the story isn't the only thing the game offers. But ehh, opinions.

47 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

i also haven't noticed this kind of hate towards Echoes (which I am currently playing). Although that may just be because the game is still relatively new.

Echoes has gotten some hate but not to the extent that Awakening and Fates have gotten. The most you'll hear of regarding Echoes complaints is complaints with the gameplay.

38 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I also don't like how it's now become the joke of "Waifu Emblem."

See, this is something i heavily disagree with. I never understood how Awakening and Fates are "Waifu Emblem" when that can be applied to any game in the series. I'm well aware that Awakening and Fates have an Avatar that can marry characters but that's not what i'm referring to. I'm referring to the concept of waifus (and husbandos) itself. It's a concept that's been around since forever. Awakening didn't invent it.

Don't know how true this is but i've heard that "waifu wars" between the Whitewings have existed since the Famicom days.

 

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1 hour ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

I've played awakening, and I though it was a good game. I have not played Fates, but the general mechanics seem similar to awakening. They don't seem like horrible games, But whenever I hear about these games, fans seem divided into either absolute love or hatred of these games. What reasons garners this extreme hatred towards these games?

For fates it was a plethora of things but the main reasons are as follows

1. Pheonix mode

2. Waifu emblem

3. melodramatic plot with a number of lame devices

4. Explanation of child units was lame

5. Revelation had a lot of gimmicky levels

6. birthright can be beaten with a single unit on lunatic.

7. Its becoming too mainstream

If I am forgetting any the others can let me know.

I personally enjoy fates though, and that's because 1. instead of complaining about phoenix mode you can just not pick it. 2 While waifu emblem it indeed a thing you can look at it in a tactical viewpoint and choose who to s rank based on the stat boosts they give. 3. A lot of gameplay elements help balance out the bad writing the plot has, such as castle customization between missions. 4. The children, while being explained poorly, are way more balanced than awakening and will be different every play through depending on who you marry. 5. Even though the levels are gimmicky in revelation there are a ton of units, so you can replay it with completely different teams if you want to. 6. you can choose not to use Ryoma...... I mean thats all I got. 7. While I wish it still had the flavor the old games did the approach they took in awakening saved the series from ending. The haters and veterans of the series are not as numerous as some think and fire emblem was a pretty niche genre until awakening was released.

If this doesn't persuade you in my opinion the gameplay of conquest more than made up for the story of fates. And I think it has some of the best gameplay and level design fire emblem has seen period.  

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So it's sounding like a combination of eliteism and Bad design choices. 

I get the bad design choices. After playing a few more FEs, the map design in awakening does seem lackluster. Awakening is also downright broken with pair up, that doesn't make it a bad game though. 

I just don't like the eliteism. I had been hesitant about playing FE for years just because I just always viewed it as something the Normal gamer shouldn't play because of all the veteran and eliteism I had seen before. It really discourages others from games because all they say is "X game is ruining the franchise!!!"

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Armagon said:

See, this is something i heavily disagree with. I never understood how Awakening and Fates are "Waifu Emblem" when that can be applied to any game in the series. I'm well aware that Awakening and Fates have an Avatar that can marry characters but that's not what i'm referring to. I'm referring to the concept of waifus (and husbandos) itself. It's a concept that's been around since forever. Awakening didn't invent it.

Don't know how true this is but i've heard that "waifu wars" between the Whitewings have existed since the Famicom days.

It's because of the marriage system in combination with the Avatar. People can now kind of virtually marry just about any character they want.

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1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

It's because of the marriage system in combination with the Avatar. People can now kind of virtually marry just about any character they want.

It's not just this, but also the fact that this one side feature has been made such a point of emphasis compared to the core gameplay.  Though, whether or not this is the fault of the game's players or the game itself is still up for debate.

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5 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

It's not just this, but also the fact that this one side feature has been made such a point of emphasis compared to the core gameplay.  Though, whether or not this is the fault of the game's players or the game itself is still up for debate.

Yeah, though the main reason I hate the joke is because I think the terms "waifu" and "husbando" themselves are silly.

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Just now, Anacybele said:

Yeah, though the main reason I hate the joke is because I think the terms "waifu" and "husbando" themselves are silly.

Also, if you want to sound authentic, start saying "hasubando" instead.

If you try to write husbando (フスバンド) in Japanese, you'll end up pronouncing it "hoosband".

But I digress.

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Just now, Von Ithipathachai said:

Also, if you want to sound authentic, start saying "hasubando" instead.

If you try to write husbando (フスバンド) in Japanese, you'll end up pronouncing it "hoosband".

But I digress.

Oh lord... Yeah, no thanks. xP

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52 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

i also haven't noticed this kind of hate towards Echoes (which I am currently playing). Although that may just be because the game is still relatively new. 

Well, there certainly is hate for Echoes (just ping Thane if you wanna hear about that; heck, I'm sure he'll have some insights on this topic in general), but I get what you mean.

And to answer that inquiry, it's because unlike the other two 3DS games, it's a remake of an older game and it doesn't include the pair-up/marriage/offspring mechanics a number of vets bash on.  So the same people who hate on Awakening and Fates won't be found hating on this one as well unless they only like a very narrow amount of games from this series.

6 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

I just don't like the eliteism. I had been hesitant about playing FE for years just because I just always viewed it as something the Normal gamer shouldn't play because of all the veteran and eliteism I had seen before. It really discourages others from games because all they say is "X game is ruining the franchise!!!"

The only people who like elitism are the elitists themselves.  The rest of us get tired of that crap, and I definitely understand how it can turn off others.

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, though the main reason I hate the joke is because I think the terms "waifu" and "husbando" themselves are silly.

I, too, hate those words, and I started with those games.  Even when I say them ironically, I can't help but cringe (another word I mostly hate) upon hearing them leave my lips.

Then again, I just have an issue with people mixing in random foreign words with English.  It comes across as them trying too hard to sound "exquisite" and "refined".

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From what I have seen it seems that there are multiple reasons.

 

For FE13  the main complaints I have seen are about the map designs, pair up, fanservice, Avatar, story and the characters being too "gimmicky" due to some of them following an anime trope.
Personally I quite enjoyed some of its characters and even the story a bit but I can see why someone would hate these aspects. I must admit that I am not a fan of the map designs too. 

There are also some tensions between the old and the new fans.

 

Some of these complaints are also the same in FE14 too. For example Revelation is often bashed for its map design, some mechanics and a questionable unit balance. Compared to Awakening, the children system don't particulary have a reason to be in the game story wise. Fanservice is often criticized too for stuffs like skinship, characters' designs like Camilla's and her during 2 cutscenes, etc...

Look at some discussions about the most recent Voting Gauntlet in FE Heroes and you would see some people hating Camilla and even insulting her fans for example.

Also it was said in the Japanese Direct that in Conquest, one of the themes would be changing Nohr from the inside, (in NoA it was about a revolution from what I remember) so people got hyped at first and then were disappointed to see it wasn't the case. 
An another major theme of Fates is also not respected and pretty much ruins this game's original premise but I am not going to spoil it.

So story wise we can say that people were pretty much disappointed and felt lied to. From what I have seen, currently some people seem to feel lied to as well because of Warriors including Lyn.

Some people also hate how the localization was handled for FE14 as well.

Personally, I am not a fan of Revelation, the map designs overall  (even for Conquest especially during the midgame where I didn't like most of them) , the story and most of the characters as well. I don't mind the fanservice but I must admit that the Camilla cutscene in Birthright and the one with Corrin bumping into her boobs in Conquest feel ridiculous.

FE14 is definitely not one of my favorite games in the series but there are some aspects and characters I quite enjoyed from this game.

So I would say the main reasons for the hate are generally the gameplay, story, characters, fanservice and the tensions between the new and old fans.

 

1 hour ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

i also haven't noticed this kind of hate towards Echoes (which I am currently playing). Although that may just be because the game is still relatively new. 

I have seen people complaning about Echoes' gameplay and story as well but yes, Echoes seem to be less hated than Awakening and Fates.
I guess the game not having some of Awakening/Fates mechanics like marriage and pair up and Echoes having a decent worldbuilding and maybe because of some of its characters having less supports and "feeling less gimmicky" probably help.

Edited by Thunderstar

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27 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

For fates it was a plethora of things but the main reasons are as follows

1. Pheonix mode

2. Waifu emblem

3. melodramatic plot with a number of lame devices

4. Explanation of child units was lame

5. Revelation had a lot of gimmicky levels

6. birthright can be beaten with a single unit on lunatic.

7. Its becoming too mainstream

If that 7th complaint is true then wow. Just wow. God forbid this series becomes mainstream amirite? 

8 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

It's because of the marriage system in combination with the Avatar. People can now kind of virtually marry just about any character they want.

Ok but it's still a gameplay mechanic. The concept of waifus existed long before Awakening was even thought of. Sure, people make jokes about it but they are just that: jokes. They aren't meant to be taken literally. I get that you don't like the joke but blaming the game itself is unfair imo.

5 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

It's not just this, but also the fact that this one side feature has been made such a point of emphasis compared to the core gameplay.  Though, whether or not this is the fault of the game's players or the game itself is still up for debate.

I'd argue it's the player's fault honestly. It was clearly intended as a gameplay mechanic, especially in Awakening, where the gameplay was taken from other games in the series.

 

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