So Nephenee can 1RKO Hector and B!Ike

[HTakara82]

While under the effects of Wrath, which is 29 HP for me, making her double moonbow wrath proc on them...
My Nephenee's stats (HP bane ATK boon, with summoner buff, no ally buff included)
HP 39
ATK 53
SP 40
DEF 39
RES 25

Moonbow, Fury, Wrath

+ATK Hector
she deals 27 x 2 damage to him, killing a neutral or HP bane Hector, but will be short on killing a +HP / +DEF Hector by a few HP. (+ATK Hector does 27 damage to her, leaving her with 2HP, if exactly at 75%)

+DEF B!Ike w/ Steady Breath
She deals 23 x 2 damage to him, no variation of Boon / Bane will save him, and he deals 23 damage to her. 

In conclusion, Wrath is broken.

[Junkhead]

So I take it the myth is also true, in which the thing does really stack with Wo Dao...they really should fix that. The kill itself is an amazing idea, and it's cool it takes up a B-slot because a lot of characters generally want either QR, Desperation or some sort of Breaker (if not, Vantage).

Going off of stats alone, I knew she's really good. I want one for Wrath (for Charlotte) and the other for keepers.

[HTakara82]

1 minute ago, Soul~! said:

So I take it the myth is also true, in which the thing does really stack with Wo Dao...they really should fix that. The kill itself is an amazing idea, and it's cool it takes up a B-slot because a lot of characters generally want either QR, Desperation or some sort of Breaker (if not, Vantage).

Going off of stats alone, I knew she's really good. I want one for Wrath (for Charlotte) and the other for keepers.

yeah, but personally, I would NOT attempt to attack WTD without having reasonable attack, good bulk and speed. Without it, you'll die before you can kill 'em. Only Nephenee and B!Lucina with the right setup can kill severe WTD with this setup. Although B!Lucina is an expensive option as it requires you to sack two Nephenee's, so unless you're super whaling or super lucky, and for some reason just don't like Nephenee, you can do it. Nephenee is a low investment high return unit, all she needs is Ardent Sacrifice and Fury, all easy to get and cheap to learn. 

[Seafarer]

So... a specific unit with a specific asset and flaw can, within a very narrow range of HP values, ORKO units with WTA against them? And this makes one of the skills needed to make it happen broken? I'm not seeing it, tbh.

For reference, vanilla Nino with vanilla Eirika's buffs can survive and ORKO an unbuffed Tharja, if she's on full HP (which is easier than getting down to 28-29 HP for your Neph). She also ORKOes a substantial number of other reds, so long as they don't have Triangle Adept.

Basically, the ability to handle enemies you have WTD against doesn't make a unit broken; it makes that unit good. (And the results you're getting are a result of Nephenee, not Wrath. A broken skill should make every unit that gets it broken, and I don't see Wrath breaking Selena or Laslow...)

[Junkhead]

5 minutes ago, HTakara82 said:

yeah, but personally, I would NOT attempt to attack WTD without having reasonable attack, good bulk and speed. Without it, you'll die before you can kill 'em. Only Nephenee and B!Lucina with the right setup can kill severe WTD with this setup. Although B!Lucina is an expensive option as it requires you to sack two Nephenee's, so unless you're super whaling or super lucky, and for some reason just don't like Nephenee, you can do it. Nephenee is a low investment high return unit, all she needs is Ardent Sacrifice and Fury, all easy to get and cheap to learn. 

Actually, my -Atk Charlotte can kill H4xtor if she has an Armouslayer.

Like, normal Armourslayer even.

[HTakara82]

5 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

So... a specific unit with a specific asset and flaw can, within a very narrow range of HP values, ORKO units with WTA against them? And this makes one of the skills needed to make it happen broken? I'm not seeing it, tbh.

For reference, vanilla Nino with vanilla Eirika's buffs can survive and ORKO an unbuffed Tharja, if she's on full HP (which is easier than getting down to 28-29 HP for your Neph). She also ORKOes a substantial number of other reds, so long as they don't have Triangle Adept.

Basically, the ability to handle enemies you have WTD against doesn't make a unit broken; it makes that unit good. (And the results you're getting are a result of Nephenee, not Wrath. A broken skill should make every unit that gets it broken, and I don't see Wrath breaking Selena or Laslow...)

actually only a specific Boon, she MUST be a +ATK, she can actually accomplish it with any flaw. B!Ike and Hector are the heftiest and most powerful Greens, so if she can kill them, she can kill any Green. Like Titania for instance is an Emerald Axe user still dies to her. Thanks to the wonders of Wrath of Specials ignoring WTA. a Neutral HP and DEF Titania would get hit for 25x2 damage, even with her Emerald Axe on. Unless he kept her guard, which will stop Moonbow from triggering on the second hit. 

But you are correct in the line of thinking though, that the unit has to be good on it's own to take full advantage of it. If the unit has middling stats all around, it'll be wasted on them.

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, HTakara82 said:

actually only a specific Boon, she MUST be a +ATK, she can actually accomplish it with any flaw. B!Ike and Hector are the heftiest and most powerful Greens, so if she can kill them, she can kill any Green. Like Titania for instance is an Emerald Axe user still dies to her. Thanks to the wonders of Wrath of Specials ignoring WTA. a Neutral HP and DEF Titania would get hit for 25x2 damage, even with her Emerald Axe on. Unless he kept her guard, which will stop Moonbow from triggering on the second hit. 

But you are correct in the line of thinking though, that the unit has to be good on it's own to take full advantage of it. If the unit has middling stats all around, it'll be wasted on them.

My Brave Ike would like to way in and tell you that he will instantly counter your Nephenee with Bonfire. So unless she runs Desperation (which she wont due to Wrath 3) she will die with only 29 HP. I only run B!Ike with Aether when i am doing stuff outside of the Arena. in the Arena he runs Bonfire. This is even before considering that he has S rank with my Avatar.

You might want to consider that other Players run other builds. Wrath 3 is not broken. Its okeish but it doesnt prevent your unit from dieng, because you cant run Desperation and Wrath 3 in the same slot, unless your name is Lyn and you have a Sol Katti.

In that sense i might also call my Sonya broken because she can ORKO Red mages due to her Tome and Infantery Pulse on Turn 1, but i dont because it all boils down on the other units built.

[Rezzy]

2 hours ago, Seafarer said:

So... a specific unit with a specific asset and flaw can, within a very narrow range of HP values, ORKO units with WTA against them? And this makes one of the skills needed to make it happen broken? I'm not seeing it, tbh.

For reference, vanilla Nino with vanilla Eirika's buffs can survive and ORKO an unbuffed Tharja, if she's on full HP (which is easier than getting down to 28-29 HP for your Neph). She also ORKOes a substantial number of other reds, so long as they don't have Triangle Adept.

Basically, the ability to handle enemies you have WTD against doesn't make a unit broken; it makes that unit good. (And the results you're getting are a result of Nephenee, not Wrath. A broken skill should make every unit that gets it broken, and I don't see Wrath breaking Selena or Laslow...)

It sounds like it also requires the unit to have the Summoner Support Buff, which makes it something that not many people will be able to replicate.

[HTakara82]

3 minutes ago, Hilda said:

My Brave Ike would like to way in and tell you that he will instantly counter your Nephenee with Bonfire. So unless she runs Desperation (which she wont due to Wrath 3) she will die with only 29 HP. I only run B!Ike with Aether when i am doing stuff outside of the Arena. in the Arena he runs Bonfire. This is even before considering that he has S rank with my Avatar.

You might want to consider that other Players run other builds. Wrath 3 is not broken. Its okeish but it doesnt prevent your unit from dieng, because you cant run Desperation and Wrath 3 in the same slot, unless your name is Lyn and you have a Sol Katti.

In that sense i might also call my Sonya broken because she can ORKO Red mages due to her Tome and Infantery Pulse on Turn 1, but i dont because it all boils down on the other units built.

Summoner support doesn't effect enemy controlled units aka Arena / Arena Assault, so that's a moot point. And yes people run different builds, but many do run Aether, so it shouldn't be discounted. 

Desperation is NOT good with Wrath + Moonbow, why? because the 2nd hit won't be a moonbow hit. Wrath only deducts -1 on the start of the turn. And since sol katti doesn't have a CD reduction on it, it's simply not efficient. She'll only be able to fire off 1 moonbow at a time. If she wants to take out tankier units, she'll need double moonbow proc, and for that to happen, she needs to take a hit inbetween attacks. And if she's in desperation range, she'll die, period. She doesn't have the bulk to survive hits. Lyn will never be able to win against any lance user even with wrath. They will all survive her attack and one shot her.

The point of the topic is that Nephenee has the capacity to take out bulk greens when she has a color disadvantage. Which is excessively rare for a melee unit. 

Also, a +ATK Sonya with 0 CD Moonbow with Death Blow 3, still can't 1RKO a neutral uninvested Celica, and dies on counter.

Should you attack a unit when you have the disadvantage? of course not, you should avoid it if possible, but it's nice to know that you have the option if you're forced to. 

[Hilda]

6 minutes ago, HTakara82 said:

Summoner support doesn't effect enemy controlled units aka Arena / Arena Assault, so that's a moot point. And yes people run different builds, but many do run Aether, so it shouldn't be discounted. 

Desperation is NOT good with Wrath + Moonbow, why? because the 2nd hit won't be a moonbow hit. Wrath only deducts -1 on the start of the turn. And since sol katti doesn't have a CD reduction on it, it's simply not efficient. She'll only be able to fire off 1 moonbow at a time. If she wants to take out tankier units, she'll need double moonbow proc, and for that to happen, she needs to take a hit inbetween attacks. And if she's in desperation range, she'll die, period. She doesn't have the bulk to survive hits. Lyn will never be able to win against any lance user even with wrath. They will all survive her attack and one shot her.

The point of the topic is that Nephenee has the capacity to take out bulk greens when she has a color disadvantage. Which is excessively rare for a melee unit. 

Also, a +ATK Sonya with 0 CD Moonbow with Death Blow 3, still can't 1RKO a neutral uninvested Celica, and dies on counter.

Should you attack a unit when you have the disadvantage? of course not, you should avoid it if possible, but it's nice to know that you have the option if you're forced to. 

Did you run the numbers on Lyn? because i did and a +SPD/-RES Sol Katti Lyn running Wrath 3 in Desperation (SPD Seal+1) range kills 116 units that run Fury 3 as their A Skill and have a SPD+ Boon, 134 wins if they run ATK+ boon. that number spikes up to 142 with Brave Lucina SPD buffs on Lyn and to 156 with additional Delthea buffs. You only need that 1 reduction at the start of the turn to kill a unit with Lyn!

I do see your point, but that can be achieved by other units too (see Lyn above) if the opponent doesnt run an optimal built and Aether is not an optimal Arena Defense built imho.

[HTakara82]

27 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Did you run the numbers on Lyn? because i did and a +SPD/-RES Sol Katti Lyn running Wrath 3 in Desperation (SPD Seal+1) range kills 116 units that run Fury 3 as their A Skill and have a SPD+ Boon, 134 wins if they run ATK+ boon. that number spikes up to 142 with Brave Lucina SPD buffs on Lyn and to 156 with additional Delthea buffs. You only need that 1 reduction at the start of the turn to kill a unit with Lyn!

I do see your point, but that can be achieved by other units too (see Lyn above) if the opponent doesnt run an optimal built and Aether is not an optimal Arena Defense built imho.

Yes I did run the numbers, and I overridden to give all enemies Fury 3 to account for variations in stats. and skill setups and her numbers are 79 wins 59 losses and 30 Draws, I'm not sure what you're doing to get those numbers.

[dragonlordsd]

6 hours ago, HTakara82 said:

While under the effects of Wrath, which is 29 HP for me, making her double moonbow wrath proc on them...
My Nephenee's stats (HP bane ATK boon, with summoner buff, no ally buff included)
HP 39
ATK 53
SP 40
DEF 39
RES 25

Moonbow, Fury, Wrath

+ATK Hector
she deals 27 x 2 damage to him, killing a neutral or HP bane Hector, but will be short on killing a +HP / +DEF Hector by a few HP. (+ATK Hector does 27 damage to her, leaving her with 2HP, if exactly at 75%)

+DEF B!Ike w/ Steady Breath
She deals 23 x 2 damage to him, no variation of Boon / Bane will save him, and he deals 23 damage to her. 

In conclusion, Wrath is broken.

Wait, wait.

I might be missing something, but how does the math work out?

So, she hits for 27. Nifty.

But first, she has to be at least below 29 hp (probably lower, tough to hit on the mark)

But then Bike counters with Bonfire, for, what, 52 + 20% = 62 ish,

62-39= 23. 23+19 = 42

So, how the heck does she survive the counter?

Take it further with Hector, +att hits for 27, so if you're even one or two points of hp off, he doesn't even need bonfire to wipe the floor with you (same with +att ike)

I mean, maybe if you're going on a full neutral Hector this works, but that assumes no buffs. I mean, if he grabs, say, even a single attack buff, she's toast.

And no, she can't possibly be running desperation, Wrath takes up her B skill.

I mean, I just can't see any way she could kill either of them.

Maybe you could have Bike run Aether instead, but I've never seen a Bike actually doing that.

Edit:

Also, she doesn't match up great against Brave Lucy either.

Lucy has more neutral speed, so she won't get doubled, and fury Lucy will take 37. Which hurts, sure, but Lucy will then return a solid 14, and then with moonbow and vantage takes her out on the next round no matter what.

What does trouble me much more than neph is the implication that wrath stacks with wo dao. That's where things start really getting ugly (i'm looking at you, Lucina and Elincia)

Edited September 17, 2017 by dragonlordsd

[Hilda]

45 minutes ago, HTakara82 said:

Yes I did run the numbers, and I overridden to give all enemies Fury 3 to account for variations in stats. and skill setups and her numbers are 79 wins 59 losses and 30 Draws, I'm not sure what you're doing to get those numbers.

I am getting this numbers because Lyns Legendary Weapon has built in Desperation below 50% HP ;) which means she wont get counterattacked inbetween her 1. and 2. hit. In other words she cant die unless the opponents survives both hits or has high speed that Lyn can only attack once. (Considering she has the 3. highest Speed of all the units there are only a couple that can do that)

[HTakara82]

47 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Wait, wait.

I might be missing something, but how does the math work out?

So, she hits for 27. Nifty.

But first, she has to be at least below 29 hp (probably lower, tough to hit on the mark)

But then Bike counters with Bonfire, for, what, 52 + 20% = 62 ish,

62-39= 23. 23+19 = 42

So, how the heck does she survive the counter?

Take it further with Hector, +att hits for 27, so if you're even one or two points of hp off, he doesn't even need bonfire to wipe the floor with you (same with +att ike)

I mean, maybe if you're going on a full neutral Hector this works, but that assumes no buffs. I mean, if he grabs, say, even a single attack buff, she's toast.

And no, she can't possibly be running desperation, Wrath takes up her B skill.

I mean, I just can't see any way she could kill either of them.

Maybe you could have Bike run Aether instead, but I've never seen a Bike actually doing that.

Edit:

Also, she doesn't match up great against Brave Lucy either.

Lucy has more neutral speed, so she won't get doubled, and fury Lucy will take 37. Which hurts, sure, but Lucy will then return a solid 14, and then with moonbow and vantage takes her out on the next round no matter what.

What does trouble me much more than neph is the implication that wrath stacks with wo dao. That's where things start really getting ugly (i'm looking at you, Lucina and Elincia)

You do know that not all B!Ikes run bonfire right? I've run into more with Aether than Bonfire, everything is anecdotal, just because you prefer Bonfire doesn't mean everyone else does. 

Also it's excessively easy to to hit 29 HP, 1 Ardent Sacrifice puts her exactly at 29. You're assuming you'll always be under 29 hp. 

Match up against Lucina? you mean vs? if they were to fight each other, whoever attacks first loses. And who the hell puts vantage on Lucina? Everyone knows vantage mostly goes on units that can DC. If you slapping vantage on her just to fuck with Nephenee, Nephenee can slap on vantage to fuck with her too. I don't see where you're going with this.

[HTakara82]

39 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I am getting this numbers because Lyns Legendary Weapon has built in Desperation below 50% HP ;) which means she wont get counterattacked inbetween her 1. and 2. hit. In other words she cant die unless the opponents survives both hits or has high speed that Lyn can only attack once. (Considering she has the 3. highest Speed of all the units there are only a couple that can do that)

I did put her at 18hp which is her 50% range, and that's the numbers I got.

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, HTakara82 said:

I did put her at 18hp which is her 50% range, and that's the numbers I got.

Life and Death 3.

[Tenzen12]

2 hours ago, HTakara82 said:

You do know that not all B!Ikes run bonfire right? I've run into more with Aether than Bonfire, everything is anecdotal, just because you prefer Bonfire doesn't mean everyone else does. 

Also it's excessively easy to to hit 29 HP, 1 Ardent Sacrifice puts her exactly at 29. You're assuming you'll always be under 29 hp. 

Match up against Lucina? you mean vs? if they were to fight each other, whoever attacks first loses. And who the hell puts vantage on Lucina? Everyone knows vantage mostly goes on units that can DC. If you slapping vantage on her just to fuck with Nephenee, Nephenee can slap on vantage to fuck with her too. I don't see where you're going with this.

Well not all Bikes run Bonfire yet. Given he comes with complete skill set And have one most expensive special, even after Hitting lv. 40 not many people would have enough sp  to add bonfire already. I am sure that mine Ike doesn't. 

Also Vantage Lucina is legit. DC is nice bonus, but what is prime requirement is high attack. Which she certainly has. 

[HTakara82]

14 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Life and Death 3.

Same... You sure you didn't like over buff her?

11 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:

Well not all Bikes run Bonfire yet. Given he comes with complete skill set And have one most expensive special, even after Hitting lv. 40 not many people would have enough sp  to add bonfire already. I am sure that mine Ike doesn't. 

Also Vantage Lucina is legit. DC is nice bonus, but what is prime requirement is high attack. Which she certainly has. 

I'm acquainted with a number of whales, and they all run Aether and they're never dropping out of t20. 

[dragonlordsd]

15 hours ago, HTakara82 said:

Match up against Lucina? you mean vs? if they were to fight each other, whoever attacks first loses. And who the hell puts vantage on Lucina? Everyone knows vantage mostly goes on units that can DC. If you slapping vantage on her just to fuck with Nephenee, Nephenee can slap on vantage to fuck with her too. I don't see where you're going with this.

No, see, that's my point, my friend.

Neph CAN'T run vantage and wrath. So she'd have to give up wrath to run it.

But you are right, on your specific neph, ardent sacrifice does have her hit the hp on the mark, but it's still a big risk to run that with no desperation.

[HTakara82]

8 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

No, see, that's my point, my friend.

Neph CAN'T run vantage and wrath. So she'd have to give up wrath to run it.

But you are right, on your specific neph, ardent sacrifice does have her hit the hp on the mark, but it's still a big risk to run that with no desperation.

mmm, not really, Nephenee takes so much punishment that it's not even funny.... here's a acquaintance of mines +10 +SPD Nephenee without any support bonuses

Edited September 17, 2017 by HTakara82

[dragonlordsd]

3 minutes ago, HTakara82 said:

mmm, not really, Nephenee takes so much punishment that it's not even funny.... here's a acquaintance of mines +10 +SPD Nephenee without any support bonuses

Sorry, don't get me wrong. Neph is a great character, Wrath is a crazy powerful skill,

but she's not Reinhardt levels of broken.

Even with those stats, there are still plenty of blue units that can effectively duel her (Lancina, Lukas, etc.) and while she can definitely do some amazing things in the right situations, I don't think wrath is broken.

On her, at least. Now, on some other characters....

[HTakara82]

1 minute ago, dragonlordsd said:

Sorry, don't get me wrong. Neph is a great character, Wrath is a crazy powerful skill,

but she's not Reinhardt levels of broken.

Even with those stats, there are still plenty of blue units that can effectively duel her (Lancina, Lukas, etc.) and while she can definitely do some amazing things in the right situations, I don't think wrath is broken.

On her, at least. Now, on some other characters....

those other blue units play excessively different roles. If those other units are built ideally for what they are, they'll all lose to her in offensive prowess simply due to how deadly Wrath is. If she has Ignis charged up, she can 1 HIT KO virtually everyone with excessively minor exceptions. It's very hard to find units that can survive Wrath proc'ing. 

Reinhardt is indeed currently the king of offense due to targetting Res with a brave effect, but he also dies to anything that sneezes at him.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, HTakara82 said:

Same... You sure you didn't like over buff her?

Did you remember to set her Moonbow cooldown to 1?

[eclipse]

18 hours ago, HTakara82 said:

I did put her at 18hp which is her 50% range, and that's the numbers I got.

Due to the timing of this, I'm going to assume that Hilda's reply popped up mid-typing or something.  Regardless, I know editing in quotes is a gigantic pain in the neck, but it's doable, so please don't double-post!

Anyway, there's a lot of things that are "broken", given the right nature.  Most of us won't have a +10 Neph (or a +10 5* for that matter), so I'm "meh" on this.

[Tenzen12]

I think everyone should have at least one 5*+10, at least I definitely planing do exactly that with my Cecilia (though I am not that far yet) 

 

She is totally broken being cappable of 1HKO Neph without initiating even! Wrath suddenly doesn't feel that big deal...