The Class You Hate the Most

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Assuming Pirates and Berserkers are included, speed and critical, as well as terrain versatility.

Which isn't really enough to make them must-haves on teams, when they still have glass defenses and (in some cases, most notably FE6) can't hit worth a damn. Terrain versatility in particular is pretty weak as an argument since sea terrain isn't that advantageous, and mountain peaks tend to be out-of-the-way.

2 hours ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

Maribelle has the following over Lissa:

• A better magic growth
• More mobility
• She comes with Mend, which Lissa cannot use because she starts with an E rank in staves
• Availability isn't much of an issue when Maribelle comes in only 4 chapters after, taking into account how little you need a healer for the first four chapters because they're very easy 
• She has a better resistance growth and base
• Her defense base is the same as Lissa's
• Her higher level means that you can reclass her sooner, and considering how hard it is to level up healers and how not needed they are in Awakening, that is such a blessing

And Lissa has the following over Maribelle:

• Healtouch, which you do not get until Lv.10, by which point Maribelle most likely has a better magic stat.
• Better strength, HP and defense growths
• That's it.

You have to pick one, really, because there's not much need for two healers when there's hardly enough reason for one, and also because it's so hard just to raise up one because healers get experience really slowly :\

• Her Magic growth is better... by all of 10%. That translates to a grand total of... one extra magic point over 10 levels.
• Fair enough.
• Unless you really went out of your way to avoid using her during those opening chapters (why), Lissa would have D rank in staves by the time Maribelle joins, so this isn't an advantage
• I'd only really see this as plausible on normal mode
• I don't see that as important when enemy mages tend to be in the minority.
• That's true
• The irony of that is that Lissa gets more out of it since for one, she'd be closer to reclassing unless, again, you went out of your way to not use her for those opening chapters, which would get you wrecked on anything above Normal (unless you really wanted an extra Mage when I already have Robin and Miriel, and maybe Ricken as well). And I'm still not seeing how healers are not needed in Awakening.

As for Lissa, what's essentially the equivalent of 10 extra Mag for healing purposes is huge, especially when Maribelle won't get anywhere near having that much of a Mag advantage over her ever. Also, I've gotten away with using both of them on the same team because I can (and because some chapters will go much more smoothly with two healers instead of just one, like chapter 6) - I mean, who the hell is going to take the spot of whichever healer I didn't bring and actually put it to good use? Virion? Gaius??? Panne??? And it ain't like healers are nearly as much of a pain in the arse to raise as they are in GBA.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emperor Hardin]

22 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Which isn't really enough to make them must-haves on teams, when they still have glass defenses and (in some cases, most notably FE6) can't hit worth a damn. Terrain versatility in particular is pretty weak as an argument since sea terrain isn't that advantageous, and mountain peaks tend to be out-of-the-way.

Berserkers may not be Swordmaster good in FE6, but 30% critical is nothing to sneeze about. There are a good deal of maps in which sea tiles can be used.

FE6 is because of how Axe's work more then the class.

Walking on water was useful very often in the DS remakes, many stages had shortcuts with that ability.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Cats, as someone else pointed out, are also bad. Even worse than Taguels perhaps. They're comparable to SMs but lack crit and 1-2 range, and now have to worry about transformation gauge issues.

 

A planned port to the 64? Why didn't he think ahead and port it to the Gamecube? By the time the 64 port was complete, it might have been less than a year until the GC release.

Lethe's transformation activating at the start makes her an above average unit in POR Anyhow. Nowhere near Taguel bad. 

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

A planned port to the 64? Why didn't he think ahead and port it to the Gamecube? By the time the 64 port was complete, it might have been less than a year until the GC release.

Thracia 776 was released pretty late.

[Von Ithipathachai]

38 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I guess I sorta hate Cavalry for being overly dominant over most infantry classes in pretty much every FE.

This.

I think after seeing it so often (especially in Genealogy of the Holy War), it actually made me feel sorry for axe infantry and armors, which I why I tend to favor them so much.

[Magical Glace]

Infantry axe users - I basically can never bring myself to use a lot of them, with the sole exception of Swimsuit Xander in Heroes (if you're wondering why he's an exception, he's tanky, has a great skill in Infantry Pulse, the meme weapon is great, and his lines are incredibly funny).  Be they Fighters/Warriors or Brigands/Pirates/Berserkers, I can never bring myself to like them.

Armored Knights - The usual reasons.  Low move compared to others is no fun.  I find it especially noticeable in Heroes, since without the rare Armor March (locked to 5* only Amelia) skill they move at effectively half the pace of Infantry/Fliers and one-third the pace of Cavalry.  They take forever to actually get anywhere and I hate it.

[Shadow Mir]

25 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Lethe's transformation activating at the start makes her an above average unit in POR Anyhow. Nowhere near Taguel bad. 

I would imagine he was talking about Radiant Dawn specifically.

26 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Berserkers may not be Swordmaster good in FE6, but 30% critical is nothing to sneeze about. There are a good deal of maps in which sea tiles can be used.

FE6 is because of how Axe's work more then the class.

Walking on water was useful very often in the DS remakes, many stages had shortcuts with that ability.

30 crit is nothing to sneeze at, but it doesn't make up for needing to gamble every time a Berserker sees combat. Also, chapter 14x is about the only chapter in FE6 where sea tiles are in a position where they can be walked on without diverting from the objective... except this is the same game where Pirates and Brigands need a Hero Crest, which can easily go to better classes, to promote (17I is about the only other chapter I can think of with sea tiles that aren't out of the way... and a path opens after several turns).

As for the DS games, I'm not sure if you're talking about Sea terrain specifically or River terrain as well (the latter can be crossed by Thieves, Marth, Snipers, Swordmasters, and Heroes in addition to Pirates and Berserkers).

Anyways, other classes I'm not fond of are Taguel, Cat, and Myrmidon/Swordmaster (to a lesser extent than the former two).

[Anacybele]

I don't really HATE any class in particular, but I'd say my least favorites are armor knights and mages. Dishonorable mention to the myrmidon line. Armor knights just aren't good very often and their poor movement makes them fall behind too much. I also don't find many armor characters I actually care for.

Mages are just too squishy a lot of the time and are also sometimes pretty slow. I also find I don't care about many of them as characters.

[Rezzy]

I generally don't like the hybrid one physical/one magical weapon classes that were way too common in Fates.  I like a split in magical/physical classes because I'm a purist, and they tend to be gimmicky or pale shadows of the other alternatives available.

It also bugs me that Mist got a sword instead of a Tome in PoR.

[EricaofRenais]

I like most units in FE hell I make Amelia a general in SS, but Armor Knights are a pain to train and I tend not to use them and they end up sitting on the bench.  I only make Amelia a general because SS is so easy and with the training towers it is easy to get her leveled, plus I can train healers while I train her.  GBA healer are also classes I don't like as much as others because they take a long time to train.

[Arcanite]

Probably Lord

[Shadow Mir]

19 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I generally don't like the hybrid one physical/one magical weapon classes that were way too common in Fates.  I like a split in magical/physical classes because I'm a purist, and they tend to be gimmicky or pale shadows of the other alternatives available.

Speaking of which, I generally tend to not have anything to do with Oni Chieftain, Malig Knight, or Basara (the former in particular has only one character who can be in it without seal shenanigans... and she sucks. I find it hard to warrant promoting someone into the other two, either - most potential Malig Knights are physically inclined (this includes Camilla, who starts off in said class), and Basara has the same problem of the units that can access it being specced such that they can only use one of its weapon types well. Oh, and the skills they have to offer are nothing special, either).

Edited September 17, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Rezzy]

8 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Speaking of which, I generally tend to not have anything to do with Oni Chieftain, Malig Knight, or Basara (the former in particular has only one character who can be in it without seal shenanigans... and she sucks. I find it hard to warrant promoting someone into the other two, either - most potential Malig Knights are physically inclined (this includes Camilla, who starts off in said class), and Basara has the same problem of the units that can access it being specced such that they can only use one of its weapon types well).

I like the idea of a Flying Mage, but wish they stopped giving the Peg Knights staves and had the Malig Knight (or some other class whatever they want to call it) have Tomes and Staves.  I had my Corrin as a Malig Knight in Birthright, and I only used my Tome pretty much 100% of the time.

I wanted to have a Flier Corrin, but why the heck does Fates not have a single Flying unit that can use Swords?  We have dumb combinations like Lance/Tome, but nary a flying sword wielder.

16 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Probably Lord

I'm going to tell Ephraim you said that.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Rezzy

[Arcanite]

1 minute ago, Rezzy said:

I'm going to tell Ephraim you said that.

Let me post crap in peace, dang it!

I guess it's for story purposes, but the thing I don't like about lords is that if they die you lose... 

Like, did I even need Eirika anyway?

[Florina's #1 Fan]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

• Her Magic growth is better... by all of 10%. That translates to a grand total of... one extra magic point over 10 levels.
• Fair enough.
• Unless you really went out of your way to avoid using her during those opening chapters (why), Lissa would have D rank in staves by the time Maribelle joins, so this isn't an advantage
• I'd only really see this as plausible on normal mode
• I don't see that as important when enemy mages tend to be in the minority.
• That's true
• The irony of that is that Lissa gets more out of it since for one, she'd be closer to reclassing unless, again, you went out of your way to not use her for those opening chapters, which would get you wrecked on anything above Normal (unless you really wanted an extra Mage when I already have Robin and Miriel, and maybe Ricken as well). And I'm still not seeing how healers are not needed in Awakening.

As for Lissa, what's essentially the equivalent of 10 extra Mag for healing purposes is huge, especially when Maribelle won't get anywhere near having that much of a Mag advantage over her ever. Also, I've gotten away with using both of them on the same team because I can (and because some chapters will go much more smoothly with two healers instead of just one, like chapter 6) - I mean, who the hell is going to take the spot of whichever healer I didn't bring and actually put it to good use? Virion? Gaius??? Panne??? And it ain't like healers are nearly as much of a pain in the arse to raise as they are in GBA.

I guess it's just a matter of preference. I never had any issues on Hard mode without using Lissa too often, but a healer is good to have on occasion. She never gets past like level seven or so, except on one playthrough where she became a falcon knight. Maribelle's extra movement and immediate staff experience is normally enough for anyone to abandon Lissa simply because there isn't that much of a difference between them otherwise, and I'd rather have Gaius, Virion, or Panne with me because they can participate in combat instead of simply patching up wounds and being useless otherwise. I mean, I'm not saying they're top tier Awakening units, but I would never want a second healer over another offensive unit, not when the game's difficulty isn't that high.

[Rezzy]

27 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Let me post crap in peace, dang it!

I guess it's for story purposes, but the thing I don't like about lords is that if they die you lose... 

Like, did I even need Eirika anyway?

Ephraim needs his Queen.

[Chconroy]

Hunters. Why do they exist? They're basically a slightly different archer in Shadow Dragon. Granted, they can promote into a mounted unit with a sword, but considering how long it takes for a unit to reach max level and the scarcity of Master Seals, that will only become a factor by the point you're almost done with the game. Making them a playable class feels like a wasted effort.

Ballisticians are annoying to deal with in Shadow Dragon. Normally, the fact that ballistas have a 3-10 range is offset by not being too accurate and not possessing many uses. In Shadow Dragon, ballistas are weapons to be used by a certain class, so they get different types that pose threats to most of your units instead of just a few, certain types are accurate enough to hit, and have enough uses to be a problem.

 

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

I guess it's just a matter of preference. I never had any issues on Hard mode without using Lissa too often, but a healer is good to have on occasion. She never gets past like level seven or so, except on one playthrough where she became a falcon knight. Maribelle's extra movement and immediate staff experience is normally enough for anyone to abandon Lissa simply because there isn't that much of a difference between them otherwise, and I'd rather have Gaius, Virion, or Panne with me because they can participate in combat instead of simply patching up wounds and being useless otherwise. I mean, I'm not saying they're top tier Awakening units, but I would never want a second healer over another offensive unit, not when the game's difficulty isn't that high.

The thing about Maribelle being better because of immediate staff experience is nothing but grasping at straws, and you know it. Extra movement - her main advantage - only does so much. And even if Awakening isn't that hard, I never found myself wishing that I had an extra combat unit over an extra healer, especially ones that either don't do anything that others couldn't do better, like Gaius (between Robin, Chrom, Stahl, Sully, Frederick, Lon'qu, and Gregor, there are a bunch of sword users that outclass him), or ones that are limited by their class, like Panne and Virion (Taguel is just bad, and Archer isn't that good either).

Edited September 17, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Dark Holy Elf]

To be perfectly honest both Lissa vs Maribelle is a mostly irrelevant debate because Libra/Anna render both near-obsolete; why bother going to the trouble of raising healers when the game hands you two good promoted ones like a third of the way through the game? If you twist my arm I'll say I prefer Maribelle out of the two for the +2 move but heck, Anna matches her move until you give her a Master Seal.

 

To be on-topic, the general suspects:

Archers - In principle, a class crippled by lack of 1 range can be interesting. However, outside Fates/RD to some extent, they rarely get stat advantages that you would think a class literally only useful for player phase should; in fact often archers have some of the lowest str/spd in your army (Wolt/Dorothy, Wil/Rebecca, Virion, etc.) which is crazy.

Knights - Bad move does not need to be coupled with bad speed unless there are clear advantages to offset this. There often aren't.

 

Particulars:

Fates suffered a bit of a class glut from the two paths, a few are really weird.

Merchant - Combat merchants? Yeah whatever. Their skills are derpy too, you pay gold and get a huge stat boost? Wut?

Blacksmith - Slightly less nonsensical than the above, but still kinda weird and didn't really have any sort of niche.

Master of Arms - This one bothers me for a different reason. It should be a cool class. Unfortunately being stuck with E ranks in a game where weapon ranks build as slowly as Fates means they're not much of a master at all. Give them base weapon ranks of D, give them Discipline as a skill at Level 1, do something. Wasted potential.

Awakening wasn't as bad about this, but sure I'll give a shout-out to Griffon Knight for being really weird lore-wise when the main playable wyvern rider in the game talks about her wyvern 24/7. FE8 has this problem too, but I give Wyvern Knight a pass because it's got such a cool design. (Though the pierce glitch is annoying.)

[Interdimensional Observer]

 

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I would imagine he was talking about Radiant Dawn specifically.

3 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Correct. I acknowledge that PoR Lethe is for her joining time a pretty good unit, she fades over time sure, but for the early-midgame she's very solid. RD made Cats too weak, and in a reversal of fates, Mordecai got relatively good for a Laguz and the Hawks of mediocrity turned into great-ish units.

 

I'm in agreement that hybrid classes never seem to work out all that well. Staff-physical hybrids are okay since Mend and Recover exist. But mixed offense is generally problematic because most units only have one viable offensive stat. Fates did have some viable dual cannons, like Bolt Axe Malig Camilla, +Mag Corrin, Adventurer Nina/Niles, Saizo, and the okay-ish (this isn't a ringing endorsement) Oni Chieftain Hayato/Rinkah.

There are the related issues of certain weapon types ending up being better than others- an Awakening Dark Knight or SoV Priestess is going to be hard pressed to find a use for Swords when Magic demolishes all. Then there is the fact that hybrid classes have their stat spreads being less than optimal to accommodate their dual offensive nature (Basara). There isn't that great a need of hybrids in FE too since you can field many units and generally they be in proximity of each other. Encounter a General? Bring in a Mage. Encounter a Pegasus Knight? Bring in an Archer or Fighter. You're never so pressed for slots or spread out that you can't field both. And of course, all damage is calculated using only one offensive stat barring Ignis.

 

10 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Blacksmith - Slightly less nonsensical than the above, but still kinda weird and didn't really have any sort of niche.

 

I really liked the designs and ideas of Oni Chieftain and Blacksmith, but we got stuck with one cruddy unit (with a Personal Skill that'd be wonderful on anyone else) for the entire class family, and few others, the crappy Hinata and okay Hayato, being able to naturally reclass into it. Didn't help it didn't have amazing skills- Shove is okay, Death Blow is neat if not consistent like Quick Draw, Lancebreaker is the life companion Ryoma dreams of, but it comes so late and so few can get it. What a shame. I don't think IS even remembered Blacksmith- they show up in like one Rev chapter, maybe two, but thats it. A lament to the unorthodox Hero.

I agree MoA was a waste too, perhaps it was because the D-C minimums of SD and NM were too good in hindsight that IS stuck with the E minimum for promoted classes in 13 & 14, but it made secondary weapon types on promotion near useless (unless we're talking Lord to Great Lord- then you want to build Lances ASAP).

[Mackc2]

I wonder if giving a mixed class a skill that allows them to use the average of their two attacking stats or always uses their highest attacking stat when using any weapon type would make them better. 

[Dismissed]

Personally, Pegasus Knights are too fragile for me unless I'm playing FE1/2/3/11/12/15. I use Heath over Florina and Cormag over Vanessa and Tana. If they are designated to be mage killers, there are viable alternatives:

FE7: Canas and to a lesser extent Lucius.

FE8: Seth

FE13: War Cleric/War Monk is obviously a class designed to be a mage killer with high Res and Axes, which have high might.

FE14: Ninjas, Maids, and Butlers.

[Lerandel]

Mages, Knights and Archers are historically my least favorite classes to use. Mages can be quite frustrating to use, especially on maps with an abundance on physical attackers. Knights' problems are that they are slow and if they have low luck, they're critical bait.

Archers in most games are completely helpless in melee range, and if they get jumped on by incoming enemies, they're good as dead. Villagers and Trainees are honorable mentions, because besides maybe Ross, they have too many faults and there are alternates to trainees' classes that are likely better in the long run.

[ping]

9 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Gaiden/Echoes: Shadows of Valentia.

They're also comparatively better then usual in Radiant Dawn and New Mystery of the Emblem.

As well as in Binding Blade, thanks to 1-2 range weapons (other than magic) being meh, and to wyverns being the most scary enemy type in the game.

@ topic: If enemy classes are included, it would be wyverns (the feral kind) in New Mystery. Other than that, it really depends on the game. Fir is one of my favourite units in FE6, but in most other games, I don't really care about myrmidons and swordmasters, I guess.

€: Did I just miss that the topic had three pages, not one? -.- Sorry bout that.

Edited September 17, 2017 by ping

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

why bother going to the trouble of raising healers when the game hands you two good promoted ones like a third of the way through the game?

Perhaps, but frankly, I generally find they both have the same weakness, that being relying on their lesser stat for offense, Libra especially.

[Emperor Hardin]

4 hours ago, Chconroy said:

Hunters. Why do they exist? They're basically a slightly different archer in Shadow Dragon. Granted, they can promote into a mounted unit with a sword, but considering how long it takes for a unit to reach max level and the scarcity of Master Seals, that will only become a factor by the point you're almost done with the game. Making them a playable class feels like a wasted effort.

Class roll always claims Hunters are faster and powerful then archers in exchange for being less accurate and less defense. However this unfortunately doesn't pan out to gameplay, despite it being an interesting idea.

5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

30 crit is nothing to sneeze at, but it doesn't make up for needing to gamble every time a Berserker sees combat. Also, chapter 14x is about the only chapter in FE6 where sea tiles are in a position where they can be walked on without diverting from the objective... except this is the same game where Pirates and Brigands need a Hero Crest, which can easily go to better classes, to promote (17I is about the only other chapter I can think of with sea tiles that aren't out of the way... and a path opens after several turns).

As for the DS games, I'm not sure if you're talking about Sea terrain specifically or River terrain as well (the latter can be crossed by Thieves, Marth, Snipers, Swordmasters, and Heroes in addition to Pirates and Berserkers).

Most enemies in FE6 are slow Knights/Generals, Wyvern Riders/Lords, and Cavaliers/Paladins with Lances, giving a high chance for people like Geese and Gonzales to get good hits in with their axes. Fast and dodgy enemies with swords are a minority in the game.

Sea terrain is in a lot of maps in both Shadow Dragon and Mystery, crossing it is very useful, particularly because Pirates/Berserkers are much harder to hit on them.

Related note, Tearring saga made Warriors, Axe Swordmasters, with high speed and skill.

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Correct. I acknowledge that PoR Lethe is for her joining time a pretty good unit, she fades over time sure, but for the early-midgame she's very solid. RD made Cats too weak, and in a reversal of fates, Mordecai got relatively good for a Laguz and the Hawks of mediocrity turned into great-ish units.

She can also be used effectively lategame too, good strategy is to equip the demi band or use a laguzstone after her initial transformation wears off.

Radiant Dawn was not kind to cat Laguz for sure.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Lau]

I dislike Knights and Generals. Low movement, poor aesthetic design...they're strong, but by the time they reach the battle, it's already over.

Not a fan of Fighters or Berserkers, purely from a design standpoint, though Hawkeye saved my ass a lot during Blazing Blade.