The Weapon Triangle

[bethany81707]

Recent events have brought me to consider the weapon triangle more closely than I did when Oscar, Boyd and Titania first explained it to me. Namely, it's good when you have your choice in warriors (which Tellius's class system does remarkably well despite Radiant Dawn's pastiche story somewhat undermining this), but take that away and it becomes more of an hindrance. After all, most dodge-tanks use swords, most heavy hitters use axes, and while there are exceptions, they are just that- exceptions, not means to think moreso about exactly which sword users you should put on your team, and why you use them over the other sword users. Fire Emblem Heroes, for all the watering down it did, brought the weapon triangle to greater prominence by doing this- and even then, some colours still gravitate towards the traditional archetypes (high speed low damage reds, high damage and bulk with low speed greens, and blues rule the roost).

I guess what I'm trying to say is: do you think the Weapon Triangle still holds up, or does the way the game play begin to make the Weapon Triangle feel secondary? I think the fact we're asking this question at all about one of the series' most iconic gameplay elements says a lot already, but...

[Armagon]

Tbh, I think the Weapon Triangle doesn't really matter that much in the long run. Sure, it'll matter on higher difficulties (just try playing Conquest Lunatic without paying attention to the Weapon Triangle) but i think it says something when one of the series' most iconic mechanics only matters on the higher difficulties, and even then, it depends on the game.

Overall, i found the Weapon Triangle to only really matter in the early game, when your units were still pretty weak. But once things get going, the Weapon Triangle honestly doesn't add that much to the gameplay. In fact, i feel like it detracts from the strategy element. With the Weapon Triangle, all you have to do to take care of a pack of axe users is to send one of your sword guys at them. It wasn't that simple in the pre-Weapon Triangle days. And i know SoV is a different type of game, but after playing that game, i really felt like the Weapon Triangle isn't really needed. They sometimes try to change it up with the reverse weapons but those things are rare. The games without the Weapon Triangle actually make stats and weapons matter more imo.

Heroes is probably the only game where the Weapon Triangle truly matters, which is ironic.

 

With all of that said, i do think the Magic Triangle should stay, specifically the one seen in the GBA era.

[Reality]

The weapon triangle is pretty redundant in a lot of games 

FE4 - Almost totally pointless for player hit rates. Can sometimes positively affect player avoid but usually isn't steep enough to negatively affect it.

FE5 - Some very low skill users might struggle (bryton/marty), but almost all lance, sword, magic users and many of the other axe users othin/halvan/dagda) will probbably have 80-99 hit for their entire careers. In any case it's only +-5 and the 1 RN causes much bigger hit rate problems than the weapon triangle anyway.

FE6 - Fairly substantial, it's not called sword emblem for nothing- That said the magic triangle IS pointless.

FE7 - Still important for weighed down lance units using Steels and Axe users, still unimportant for magic/swordies.

FE8 - Almost completely unimportant due to enemy stats in this game. If it factors at all, it's solely for throne boosted bosses.

FE9 - Same as FE8 except even the bosses are weak.

FE10 - Can matter in DB chapters, a few times in Part 2. Doesn't matter very much in the tower regardless of difficulty. 

FE11 - On normal mode doesn't matter at all, you can bulldoze everyone with marth the whole game if you want to. In H2 the earlygame makes it obvious that it wasn't in the original game (as you are forced into triangle disadanatage for the majority of like 12 chapters solely due to what the first recruits are versus the first enemies) H4 onward yeah it matters a lot.

FE12- Like FE11, except the early game recruits are better balanced across weapon types.

FE13- Totally irrelevant.

FE14 - Matters on Conquest Lunatic. Try to use it to improve avoid doesn't work very well though. For player units their Hit is the stat that you have to worry about being positively or negatively affected. Can matter for more inaccurate units in Rev and Birthright (eg Takumi, rinkah). 

So it's only seriously mattered in 5 games. I kind of feel like even then, 3 of those are more due to giving unneceasry bad hit rate on ceirtain weapon families or low skl/spd to player units, or in the case of FE11 and SoV, lack of planning when implementing modern features into the old game.

Overall I think Weapon Triangle has been a badly used feature of the FE franchise.  It matters more for LTC because in many games (especially GBA) units might need the extra damage to hit OHKO thresholds on maps, especially early-midgame. 

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

I'm fully aware that in most FE games, the effects of the triangle are not significant enough that your best units will get hampered by a disadvantage, especially the later in the game. Despite that, in my tiny world of self-created rules, I still play according to the triangle lol.

[Nobody]

I like the weapon triangle, specially when it matters. I also only play the games on the hardest difficulty, so I see it in its full effect, which makes me like it even more. I hope it stays, and I don't think IS has any reason to remove it.

I don't care about the magic weapon triangle, though. i'd rather it was incorporated in the main weapon triangle just like fates did. Magic units tend to have high resistence, so it's not like you'd use magic against them anyway.

Just to give an exemple on the weapon triangle being effective: Kaze wouldn't be as good if it weren't for the weapon triangle. You shouldn't rely on dodge tanking on Conquest that much due to it using 1RNG for hit rates below 50%, BUT Kaze can dodge at least one enemy reliably in a group of 3 or 4 mages, which improves his survivability. It also reduces the damage he takes from mages even more and increases the damage he deals to them, which makes him the perfect mage killer, allowing him to one round them on Conquest Lunatic even with his mediocre STR.

Another exemple of it mattering in the same game is chapter 25 on Lunatic. You need to dodge the ninjas to clear it without breaking your head or skipping it by killing Ryoma. WTA + Shuriken breker is what makes the Master Ninjas have single digit hit rates on your bow user of choice. Just one of them isn't enough. I don't know what I'd do in that chapter without the weapon triangle.

The Kotaro boss kill on Den of Betrayal and the Fuga boss kill in Winds of Change would also be way more problematic without the existance of the weapon triangle. Dealing with Ryoma would be almost impossible in chapter 12 without the Weapon Triangle (particularly using the Dual Club). Killing Kagero and Saizo in the same chapter would also be way more annoying without it. Conquest in itself showed through many small ways why it matters.

 

Most important than all, there's NO reason for the weapon triangle to be removed. It's a nice cool feature that helps make the units differents even more. It mattering the most on early game is natural, considering hit rates tend to be worse then. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Nobody

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

It's an absolute shame that my favorite game in my favorite difficulty doesn't feature it :,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,(

Unfortunately the WT doesn't really matter much in most games because of several reasons.
FE4 did it best because of the higher boost / penalty (+/-20%) than in other games. Also it's the only part where the magic triangle is relevant.

[Shadow Mir]

As for the weapon triangle, it mainly matters early on and in the higher difficulties of the more recent games. But that's still a better track record than the magic triangle, which is the very definition of "afterthought".

6 hours ago, Aya Shameimaru said:

FE4 did it best because of the higher boost / penalty (+/-20%) than in other games. Also it's the only part where the magic triangle is relevant.

I would disagree there, if only because of the absolute lack of balance between weapon types.

10 hours ago, Armagon said:

With all of that said, i do think the Magic Triangle should stay, specifically the one seen in the GBA era.

I dunno about that - I don't think the magic triangle serves any purpose since mages are already a minority as is.

[Interdimensional Observer]

For dodgetanking, I generally find the WT matters since every point counts there. For damage dealing, not so much unless you're already on shaky hit to begin with or are using an effective weapon. For direct damage reducing, well I can see it being useful, but not essential.

I do think it is more relevant in 13 & 14 by virtue of their attempts from the DS duo to make it more important with the Rank bonuses, but that doesn't mean the WT has to stay.

I was thinking they could make the WT a feature of certain weapons in a given type (as in some swords, but not all swords), they could make the WT more stronger if not everything is a part of it.

FE has plenty of other ways to be strategic, surely IS can see this and try abandoning this rock-paper-scissors trick.

8 hours ago, Reality said:

Can matter for more inaccurate units in Rev and Birthright (eg Takumi, rinkah).

How is Mr. 75% Skill growth and a 17+2 base stat inaccurate? If anything, I wish Takumi was a little more inaccurate so he could be a little faster or stronger.

 

12 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Fire Emblem Heroes, for all the watering down it did, brought the weapon triangle to greater prominence by doing this- and even then, some colours still gravitate towards the traditional archetypes (high speed low damage reds, high damage and bulk with low speed greens, and blues rule the roost).

I did like Fates attempt to undermine the archetypes with Rinkah being fast but weak, Subaki the tanking Peg, Laslow rather slow for a Merc, Hana being loaded on Str, and Effie on Spd... you get my point. Things didn't work out perfectly unfortunately, Rinkah is something of a statistical eunuch as an Oni, and making her anything else just ruins her already average offense. Subaki and Hinata suffered similar issues.