The current roster (Spoilers!)

[Folt]

2 minutes ago, Nanima said:

Oh really? So you don't see any way a template can have it's moveset diversified for another character? I haven't played any other Warrior games, but I am pretty sure they feature more than one archer moveset among them. Even if you base everything off of Takumi's moveset, there are ways to make it more unique and different for other characters. Like with Oboro and Azura. Like with Ryouma and all the other sword-users. I don't see how you can think they can't do that with Takumi and the other archers. They might as well just make all other archers in the series skins then.

Well, since you've said it, what kind of diversions? And don't just say "swap out all the wind effects for *insert element here* effects".

[Nanima]

23 minutes ago, Folt said:

Well, since you've said it, what kind of diversions? And don't just say "swap out all the wind effects for *insert element here* effects".

Take for instance, Sakura's priestess class in Fates. It also uses the bow, but has much more grounded animations for it befitting of the class. Imo a priestess set for Sakura, which would be a bit slower, but also incorperated some of her light magic into the actual moveset (as in actual bursts of homing light missiles chasing the target or something). The Thief animations were also very different from the archer/sniper ones in Fates. Also the next game might feature mounted archers, which would bring with them their own moveset uniqueness. There are multiple different techniques for shooting a bow in real life and I do think it's possible to play around with that in these games.

Also tone down the condescending attitude, or this conversation might as well end here.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Nanima

[Folt]

44 minutes ago, Nanima said:

Take for instance, Sakura's priestess class in Fates. It also uses the bow, but has much more grounded animations for it befitting of the class. Imo a priestess set for Sakura, which would be a bit slower, but also incorperated some of her light magic into the actual moveset (as in actual bursts of homing light missiles chasing the target or something). The Thief animations were also very different from the archer/sniper ones in Fates. Also the next game might feature mounted archers, which would bring with them their own moveset uniqueness. There are multiple different techniques for shooting a bow in real life and I do think it's possible to play around with that in these games.

Also tone down the condescending attitude, or this conversation might as well end here.

Takumi's archer moveset is fitting for pretty much all archers because the slow-charging C1 perfectly fits how Archers must keep away in order to get in good damage and must thus be wary of high-movement or high-defence units. This sits at the core of every FE archer, and while their other attacks are serviceable if they get into close-quarters combat due to their better speed, they are underpowered in comparison (but are perfectly fine for launching the enemy away or keeping them busy while you get the space required to fire of a C1, or getting the crits that the C1 opens up for once you know the moveset). Essentially, you must be able to aim and snipe when playing as them. A homing missile would go against this. This philosophy behind Archer movesets is probably gonna carry over to the mounted variant too, possibly giving them a slower charge time to make up for their mobility (or maybe like the mounted mage variant where the charge doesn't guard break).

Thieves are interesting! They don't actually have a style to call their own, besides being fast, having used different kinds of weapons over the years (mostly swords), something which both the current archer moveset and Ryoma's moveset are capable of fulfilling (actually, any of the sword sets with the possible exception of the Aytolisian Lord moveset can fulfill this, as Chrom's moveset is actually much faster than I gave it credit for: They're much better at exposing and taking down stun gauges than Navarre and Lyn are, but don't have as big a crowdclearing potential). It's why the generic thief class is simply a variant of the generic sword infantry and why the two "Thief" characters are playable archers using Takumi's moveset. If we're getting a sword thief, odds are that they'll be using Ryoma's moveset.

[r_n]

They are not beholden to keeping that same C1 (or the rest of the moveset) exactly the same for every single archer just because it fits archers in the main series. You can take liberties to better suit different characters or to offer different play styles and not 

Sakura is by nature a nervous person and that could carry through as well. She could have a variant of Takumi's C1 where she's not as fast on the draw and does fewer, but maybe stronger ones.Or weaker, but a stronger finish with her C1 gimmick charging more light into the bow resulting in a larger blast that deals more damage/leaves them stunned. Homing missiles I don't think would suit her very well, but it shouldn't be thrown completely off the table just beause C1 happens to fit generic archers. And let's move away from C1 in general: Sakura could have less certain steps during her normal string (maybe she is slower and fires more forward, maybe she does a sort of trip slash in an early combo, like how the white crit does) and then takes more precise movements in her combos. She could do something like fire down then slowly up. Overhead volleys. The light stream specials itnrigue me and I feel there's potential there than just swapping all the wind for light: explosions of light, arrows of light centered around her, light tornados, shooting a ball of light and then that light explodes (could be a nice variant for her C...5< tihink, the one with the big wind orb).

Anna could have summoned a ballista for her C1 and had this be the basis for her combos. Note: not to ride, but to ssummon and have it do things. Charge forward, do delayed cannon fire, reference different ballista shots from earlier in the series by throwing out rocks or giant arrows, steal some tips from lana's summoning gate. She also could throw more gold, like she does in some of her specials.

Niles who knows. I've seen it floated by that he could base a moveset on his chains and capturing people in some fashion. Maybe HE could have the homing missiles, he seems like someone that would do trick shots like that.KT has, presumably, done assorted bow movesets in the past and I'm sure they could come up with SOMETHING here if they dont want him on a mount.

[Anomalocaris]

If we're gonna talk about the archers, I'm under the impression that there should have been three different styles- Takumi can keep his as the basic "Archer", but Sakura should have had a slower, more graceful moveset that makes use of some staff effects as a Priestess moveset, and Anna and Niles could share a more acrobatic, fast-paced Outlaw moveset.

But it's a moot point now. Perhaps a sequel will give them new movesets.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Anomalocaris

[Folt]

17 hours ago, r_n said:

They are not beholden to keeping that same C1 (or the rest of the moveset) exactly the same for every single archer just because it fits archers in the main series. You can take liberties to better suit different characters or to offer different play styles and not 

Sakura is by nature a nervous person and that could carry through as well. She could have a variant of Takumi's C1 where she's not as fast on the draw and does fewer, but maybe stronger ones.Or weaker, but a stronger finish with her C1 gimmick charging more light into the bow resulting in a larger blast that deals more damage/leaves them stunned. Homing missiles I don't think would suit her very well, but it shouldn't be thrown completely off the table just beause C1 happens to fit generic archers. And let's move away from C1 in general: Sakura could have less certain steps during her normal string (maybe she is slower and fires more forward, maybe she does a sort of trip slash in an early combo, like how the white crit does) and then takes more precise movements in her combos. She could do something like fire down then slowly up. Overhead volleys. The light stream specials itnrigue me and I feel there's potential there than just swapping all the wind for light: explosions of light, arrows of light centered around her, light tornados, shooting a ball of light and then that light explodes (could be a nice variant for her C...5< tihink, the one with the big wind orb).

Anna could have summoned a ballista for her C1 and had this be the basis for her combos. Note: not to ride, but to ssummon and have it do things. Charge forward, do delayed cannon fire, reference different ballista shots from earlier in the series by throwing out rocks or giant arrows, steal some tips from lana's summoning gate. She also could throw more gold, like she does in some of her specials.

Niles who knows. I've seen it floated by that he could base a moveset on his chains and capturing people in some fashion. Maybe HE could have the homing missiles, he seems like someone that would do trick shots like that.KT has, presumably, done assorted bow movesets in the past and I'm sure they could come up with SOMETHING here if they dont want him on a mount.

Yeah, about that: If your Class name is not Merchant or Bow Knight, Archers in Fates use pretty much the same animations for normal attacks. Outlaw/Adventurer, Archer/Sniper, and the War Priestess... none of these classes are exempt from this. Now, remember what classes all the playable Bow users come from again.

[r_n]

5 hours ago, Folt said:

Yeah, about that: If your Class name is not Merchant or Bow Knight, Archers in Fates use pretty much the same animations for normal attacks. Outlaw/Adventurer, Archer/Sniper, and the War Priestess... none of these classes are exempt from this. Now, remember what classes all the playable Bow users come from again.

Okay great!

Take liberties anyway because who cares. What matters is the character and how their personality or shtick can bring differences to the table

[SMinairo]

5 hours ago, Folt said:

Yeah, about that: If your Class name is not Merchant or Bow Knight, Archers in Fates use pretty much the same animations for normal attacks. Outlaw/Adventurer, Archer/Sniper, and the War Priestess... none of these classes are exempt from this. Now, remember what classes all the playable Bow users come from again.

Marth and Lucina had the same animations in Fates, that doesn't mean that they should have the same moveset. A shy character like Sakura, in a class like priestess, which animations at the end of each battle shows a kind of curtsy/ bow (pun 100% intended), with elegance and class, isn't suited to use acrobatic archery imo, it creates a dissonance between what I'm seeing and what I feel I should be seeing.

[Folt]

18 hours ago, r_n said:

Okay great!

Take liberties anyway because who cares. What matters is the character and how their personality or shtick can bring differences to the table

 

17 hours ago, Sbuscoz said:

Marth and Lucina had the same animations in Fates, that doesn't mean that they should have the same moveset. A shy character like Sakura, in a class like priestess, which animations at the end of each battle shows a kind of curtsy/ bow (pun 100% intended), with elegance and class, isn't suited to use acrobatic archery imo, it creates a dissonance between what I'm seeing and what I feel I should be seeing.

Incidentally, I actually went back to look up the archer animations, and there do seem to be differences between them. My apologies.

However, I also saw something interesting at the same time: It appears that the archer moveset have taken animations from the aforementioned classes. The C4 for example actually comes from the Outlaw/Adventurer class than from the Archer/Sniper class. So Takumi/Sakura/Anna/Niles are clones because the archer moveset contains animations taken from all of their classes. It basically suits all of them equally because it takes from all of them.

[r_n]

2 minutes ago, Folt said:

 

Incidentally, I actually went back to look up the archer animations, and there do seem to be differences between them. My apologies.

However, I also saw something interesting at the same time: It appears that the archer moveset have taken animations from the aforementioned classes. The C4 for example actually comes from the Outlaw/Adventurer class than from the Archer/Sniper class. So Takumi/Sakura/Anna/Niles are clones because the archer moveset contains animations taken from all of their classes. It basically suits all of them equally because it takes from all of them.

It's not about the fact that it suits the series' archers as a whole, it's about the fact that there are 4 characters in the game who share the same exact moveset. And the ONLY weapon in the game, aside from Dragons who only has one character regardless (who I guess technically gets 2 if you differentiate human & Dragon...), to not have any different variations to it. It's boring and a big missed opportunity to not do anything interesting that plays to those characters' characters.

Really it just amplifies the clone issue the game has. I really wish they had done even a semiclone type thing, where they at least differ by a couple combos. or even 1 move. Like their combo 6 being unique, that'd be cool, since it's generally the biggest flashy attack short of a special.

On 3/6/2018 at 1:07 AM, Anomalocaris said:

If we're gonna talk about the archers, I'm under the impression that there should have been three different styles- Takumi can keep his as the basic "Archer", but Sakura should have had a slower, more graceful moveset that makes use of some staff effects as a Priestess moveset, and Anna and Niles could share a more acrobatic, fast-paced Outlaw moveset.

But it's a moot point now. Perhaps a sequel will give them new movesets.

I'm not optimistic about them touching any of the clones in a sequel. They'll probably focus resources on new characters with new movesets. We'd probably have archer #5 be unique than them touching any of the original 4.

[Anomalocaris]

8 minutes ago, r_n said:

I'm not optimistic about them touching any of the clones in a sequel. They'll probably focus resources on new characters with new movesets. We'd probably have archer #5 be unique than them touching any of the original 4.

Ah, but what if Archer #5 is a proper Priestess/Outlaw moveset, and Sakura/Anna/Niles is retroactively made a clone of Mambo #5 Archer #5 instead of Takumi?

Or, you know, any other applicable scenario. Like if we got a new Troubador/Strategist character and Elise was made a clone of them instead of a Leo clone.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Anomalocaris

[r_n]

8 minutes ago, Anomalocaris said:

Ah, but what if Archer #5 is a proper Priestess/Outlaw moveset, and Sakura/Anna/Niles is retroactively made a clone of Mambo #5 Archer #5 instead of Takumi?

Or, you know, any other applicable scenario. Like if we got a new Troubador/Strategist character and Elise was made a clone of them instead of a Leo clone.

If the cloned archers got moved into other clones I guess that'd be...fine. Not ideal but it would add a little variety. But seems like something they wouldn't bother with, especially on the sets that only have one clone.

[Folt]

On 7.3.2018 at 10:09 PM, r_n said:

It's not about the fact that it suits the series' archers as a whole, it's about the fact that there are 4 characters in the game who share the same exact moveset. And the ONLY weapon in the game, aside from Dragons who only has one character regardless (who I guess technically gets 2 if you differentiate human & Dragon...), to not have any different variations to it. It's boring and a big missed opportunity to not do anything interesting that plays to those characters' characters.

Really it just amplifies the clone issue the game has. I really wish they had done even a semiclone type thing, where they at least differ by a couple combos. or even 1 move. Like their combo 6 being unique, that'd be cool, since it's generally the biggest flashy attack short of a special.

I'm not optimistic about them touching any of the clones in a sequel. They'll probably focus resources on new characters with new movesets. We'd probably have archer #5 be unique than them touching any of the original 4.

Honestly, the biggest problem to more archer movesets is likely the fact that regular Fire Emblems have only one infantry bow class that's relatively iconic, and it's the Archer themselves. Besides that, the one that has the biggest chance of being relatively different from that again is the mounted archer, which was only separate in the original first Fire Emblem game and the Jugdral/Elibe games (everything else has it as a promotion of an infantry archer, sometimes the Mercenary too). Indeed, Archers are usually alone in being a primary bow user so there's actually little variety in on-foot archers by principle. Fire Emblem Warriors's class movesets tend to follow very closely in how a normal Fire Emblem game does things, meaning one archer moveset will cover all infantry archers because we never get more than one infantry archer class in your typical Fire Emblem. It's the same story with the Pegasus Knight moveset: It includes both thrusting and slashing moves in pretty much equal measure which covers both the normal Peg. Knight variant and the Hoshido Sky Knight variant.

(TL;DR: Your biggest chance at a new, and probably only other archer moveset is a horse archer.)

The generic enemies also tend to closely follow the usual FE class suspects: Infantry Swords, Lances, Axes, Bows, Tomes, Cavaliers, Knights, Peg. Knights, Wyvern Knights, and Manaketes are extremely recurring staples in Fire Emblem and this is also why only Leo and Elise are the only mounted mages you can fight against (as the mounted mage class tends to be rather uncommon).

Edited March 10, 2018 by Folt

[Deva Ashera]

I'll be honest, clones never bother me unless they feel unfitting like Ganondorf in Smash Bros and I honestly don't think any of the ones in Fire Emblem Warriors feel out of character. Yes, Sakura fights like Takumi, but it seems in-character that if Sakura wished to learn archery, she'd have her brother, the archer, teach her how, just like she'd have Ryoma teach her how to use a sword or Hinoka teach her how to use a lance if she so desired. I always felt that Sakura's uncertain and unconfident nature was shown mostly in her social interactions.

On the flip side, had we gotten an infantry axe, such as Hector or Arthur, reusing Lissa's moveset as a playable character, THAT would have felt out of character.

As I've said before, sharing movesets in Fire Emblem Warriors fits well enough as it's also done a lot in Fire Emblem itself. I'd also much rather have more characters with a lot sharing movesets then less characters that all have unique movesets. Like I'd much rather play as Lucina, Lyn, and Sakura then Chrom, Navarre, and Takumi despite enjoying the base movesets.

That said, some 'Luigi-fication' of clones to make them more unique is typically a good thing.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Deva Ashera

[SMEDIA]

Huh? No Sacred Stones characters? Not even Ephraim and Erika.

[Emperor Hardin]

2 hours ago, SMEDIA said:

Huh? No Sacred Stones characters? Not even Ephraim and Erika.

I can say most would have preferred over Rowan and Lianna.

The original cast certainly didn't receive the same fan love that HW original characters such as Lana and Volga got.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Emperor Hardin

[Tediz64]

On the side of Nanima and disagreeing with Folt I have to say the Archer copy template is a weak excuse, the "idea" behind it being a catch all for achers  is also weak, and the lack of effort on Koei is disappointing. Sorry if I sound too brash but here is why.

 

So I'll start with refuting away the  template excuse first. They could have pulled a generic Archer template from the actual dynasty warriors game. If Koei is really the developer why not pull from previous work? You got the backing of over 8 Dynasty Warrior games and spin offs with plenty of generic Archer fighting.

 

Next point to refute. What makes Takumi unique and cool is his legendary bow. Take that from him and he is no different then Wil, Virion, Rebecca, Shinon, Rolf, etc. Using him as a template was super lazy. Folt you can't use any logic to argue that ONE point away. So I'll repeat, his BOW makes him unique. (Edit: So by extension making other archers copy Takumi or be clones of him diminishes his unique-ness)

 

Now the lazy Koei point to. Now take the generic soliders in DW and compare them to two unique playable characters in the game (which proves they can do it) Huang Zhong and Xaihou Yuan. Completely different and unique and not suffering from the "template" excuse. Also note how both those characters ALSO additionally have different movesets that set them apart. Huang is an older gentleman and use a long sword where all his C (strong) attacks where bow based and in DW8 all his light/strong attacks where converted to bow based. Xaihou Yuan used a club and stumbled after attacking but his C attacks where bow based and in DW8 they made him all bow attack too. If they can do this in DW games they can do it in Fire Emblem Warriors. 

 

Using Takumi as a template was horrible and stripped from him his Fujiin Yumi special-ness. I understand Sakura copying it since she could have learned the bow from him but Niles and Anna? They should have given them a different bow animation and movesets. I think Folt missed the point Nanima brought to the table. What they did was terrible and the excuses they have are pretty weak. Your so called catch all or idea of how archers fight and being "anti air" or "wind" based is pretty bad. Takumi should have been the only wind based Archer and they should have given the other 3 archers different movesets. Not make clones because that is just lazy. Niles being a thief they could have Incorporated poison tip arrows or at least C strong attacks based on that or make them explosive. Sakura could be light based and Anna...eh I dunno. Being a new developer and improving along the way is ok but Koei has the backing of way too much experience and DW games to make this mistake. Hopefully in sequels we see improvements or no more copying movesets.

 

I'd like to add that hey have over 55 playable characters in the latest DW games and they INSIST on each having unique movesets not only from each other, but from generic solider. Which is kinda annoying to be honest.  As unrealistic as it is they have characters fighting with yo-yos, shields, and for christ's sake a freaking FAN!. Let's not forget tonfas, nunchucks, and the list goes on for more than 50 weapon styles! These people are at war and they are "killing" over a THOUSAND with a yo-yo.....let that sink in a bit. Fire Emblem has templates and copy cats is the very sad part. Not enough Lance users. I share your grief Nanima. But I still love the game oddly enough. Especially since I have MY Tharja.

 

I'd like to add this whole paragraph to further the point, as in-game joke they added TINGLE! He has his own signature move set in Hyrule Warriors. He literally shows up in 1 game, is a grown man wearing tights and a red speedo, has a dream of becoming a fairy, and his role is to provide maps in Legend of Zelda Major's Mask. His fighting style inclues BALLOONS. Let that sink in too. Hyrule gets that and Fire Emblem gets replica Takumi(s) and Leo/Elise and so forth. You can't even blame Nintendo because in Hyrule Link has over 5 different fighting styles, Lana and Zelda have over 3, Ganondorf has 2, and the following have unique styles: Wizzro, Volga, Cia, Tingle, Midna, Fii, Goron guy, Princess Ruto, and so forth which means Nintendo didn't shove the short end of the stick on Fire Emblem. I think it's Koei.... Hyrule and FE:W have roughly the same cast size yet it seems like they had WAY MORE resources and effort put into Hyrule. I just think Nanima (i know i'm driving this point) is saying that they gave us a sloppy half @$$ Fire Emblem Warriors whic is disappointing. Koei has the resources and the ability but they didn't do it. So why? Why no unique movesets for everyone? They could totally do it. It is feasible. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Tediz64
Added a few things