Story discussion (Spoilers)

[Nanima]

Basically, let's talk about what we have learned from the story so far, either by playing it or watching/reading about it.

I'll start:

 I am currently playing through the game and just finished chapter 9 on the Nohrian side.

From my experience so far, Awakening's opening arc was pretty good, focusing on introducing each character properly, having lots of pretty CG-cutscenes and building up to the reveal of Lucina and Owain decently.

Now with the Fates arc, things are.. contrived. They thought fighting the siblings would be a pretty good idea, but the excuse they gave for that is... a little lacking.
Basically it amounts to each sibling, except Sakura and Elise, coming to the conclusion that the others are being held hostage by the heroes and trying to rescue them.. even as said sibling fights alongside the Heroes.. Yeah, it's that dumb.

Also, Rowan falls victim to Fates plot-illness, so Takumi is relegated to a side-show in his own chapter while Sakura and Hinoka try to find a cure. Meanwhile, Leon straight up attacks Lissa, because he thinks she is threatening or trying to hurt Camilla..?? (will he get the same heat as Takumi shooting Elise in Conquest did? Probably not.)

Anyway, feel free to discuss, I'll probably post some updates here and there on what else I find.

[Ertrick36]

I'm assuming that if you pick Rowan as your main character, Lianna is the one who falls ill instead?

And of course the Fates arc is contrived.  Could it be any other way? ;)

[Nanima]

1 minute ago, Ertrick36 said:

I'm assuming that if you pick Rowan as your main character, Lianna is the one who falls ill instead?

And of course the Fates arc is contrived.  Could it be any other way? ;)

No, for the Fates chapters, the group is split and Rowan goes for the Hoshidan characters, while Lianna goes for the Nohrians. It's pretty dialogue heavy, so I doubt they have written two different scenarios for it.

[Sire]

After skimming through the main story stream, the story is fairly standard. If one played the focus games, then one basically knows what to expect going in. The Warriors storyline is also rather predictable. The only thing I wish I could know more about is the Shadow Dragon side of things, provided there is any story for them at all...

As for awesome moments, I do recall two Fates characters doing something amazing later on, so at least there is that.
* * * * *
It disappoints me that the storyline for Fates is terrible as always, but a part of me wonders if it is intentional. I wonder if the english localization will somehow make it better than the JP version, although I doubt it.

[Captain Karnage]

does the power of friendship save the day in the end?

or is it deus ex machina?

I'm genuinly curious how I'm going to facepalm when I finish the game

[Thane]

1 hour ago, Sire said:

It disappoints me that the storyline for Fates is terrible as always, but a part of me wonders if it is intentional. I wonder if the english localization will somehow make it better than the JP version, although I doubt it.

If someone at least acknowledges that in the English version, I will be so happy.

At least the Fates siblings remain in-character.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Thane

[Zangetsu]

6 hours ago, Nanima said:

Basically, let's talk about what we have learned from the story so far, either by playing it or watching/reading about it.

I'll start:

 I am currently playing through the game and just finished chapter 9 on the Nohrian side.

From my experience so far, Awakening's opening arc was pretty good, focusing on introducing each character properly, having lots of pretty CG-cutscenes and building up to the reveal of Lucina and Owain decently.

Now with the Fates arc, things are.. contrived. They thought fighting the siblings would be a pretty good idea, but the excuse they gave for that is... a little lacking.
Basically it amounts to each sibling, except Sakura and Elise, coming to the conclusion that the others are being held hostage by the heroes and trying to rescue them.. even as said sibling fights alongside the Heroes.. Yeah, it's that dumb.

Also, Rowan falls victim to Fates plot-illness, so Takumi is relegated to a side-show in his own chapter while Sakura and Hinoka try to find a cure. Meanwhile, Leon straight up attacks Lissa, because he thinks she is threatening or trying to hurt Camilla..?? (will he get the same heat as Takumi shooting Elise in Conquest did? Probably not.)

Anyway, feel free to discuss, I'll probably post some updates here and there on what else I find.

You understand Japanese?

[wissenschaft]

6 hours ago, Nanima said:

No, for the Fates chapters, the group is split and Rowan goes for the Hoshidan characters, while Lianna goes for the Nohrians. It's pretty dialogue heavy, so I doubt they have written two different scenarios for it.

So wait, you have to pick Lianna to go on the Nohr route? I guess that adds some repeatability to the story which is a good thing. I already wanted to pick Lianna first so I'm fine with this.

Oh and thank you for sharing details on the story mode.

Edited September 28, 2017 by wissenschaft

[Konnor97]

3 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

So wait, you have to pick Lianna to go on the Nohr route? I guess that adds some repeatability to the story which is a good thing. I already wanted to pick Lianna first so I'm fine with this.

Oh and thank you for sharing details on the story mode.

IIRC You play both routes no matter your main lord. There are a few Nohr chapters, and a few Hoshido chapters, and you need to do all of both in order to progress further.

[Kazuya]

I don't expect the best of plot but I was questioning why the plot felt just like "how did this get written?" 

[Corbin]

Just saw footage of the last Fates chapter. I'm not fluent in Japanese but basically Corrin, Ryoma, and Xander are all brainwashed by Iago and it's up to our heroes to break them out of it. Admittedly, I kind of liked the irony of the whole switcheroo between Corrin and Takumi. 

"Also, Rowan falls victim to Fates plot-illness, so Takumi is relegated to a side-show in his own chapter while Sakura and Hinoka try to find a cure."

Ah, Rowan, Rowan, Rowan, I always figured you were going to be relegated to butt monkey status.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Corbin

[Nanima]

6 hours ago, Zangetsu said:

You understand Japanese?

I am far from fluent, but I can understand most of what is being said that isn't Owain's poetics. Everything being voiced is a huge help when dealing with unknown kanji. Menus are the only thing I struggle with.

6 hours ago, Corbin said:

Just saw footage of the last Fates chapter. I'm not fluent in Japanese but basically Corrin, Ryoma, and Xander are all brainwashed by Iago and it's up to our heroes to break them out of it. Admittedly, I kind of liked the irony of the whole switcheroo between Corrin and Takumi. 

Is that so? Haha That's pretty damn ironic indeed. Can't say I won't enjoy seeing that. (Don't think I can play much today though, sadly)

[DragonFlames]

15 hours ago, Thane said:

At least the Fates siblings remain in-character.

I don't know why, but that genuinely made me laugh, thank you!

That the Fates part would be terrible story-wise was almost a self-fulfilling prophecy, given the source material they had to work with.

Also @Nanima on the Leo threatening Lissa part: The reason Takumi gets so much heat for shooting Elise - at least from me, I don't know about everyone else - is that his justification for it is just stupid. He shoots her because he wants her to stop talking. I mean... what the hell kind of sense does that make? The answer: none. It's just another check off the list of things that make Takumi an unbearable a-hole.
I don't know the context for Leo threatening Lissa, of course, since I have neither played nor seen Warriors up until now, but if it really appeared as if she was threatening Camilla, I do believe we could justify it as a misunderstanding on Leo's part.
Though that begs the question why Leo would think that a 15-year old girl - a Cleric, no less - can somehow threaten his older sister, who is a trained soldier of Nohr, rides an undead wyvern (it's not a dragon if it doesn't have arms), uses an axe herself and is possibly way more experienced a fighter than Lissa, even if Lissa has an axe, too.

By the way, who did they pick for the villain side? I know Validar is in there from promotional materials, and someone here said that Iago is there as well, but who else will make an appearance?
Is Medeus the final boss, since he is (sort of) FE's Ganon? Or is the final boss someone else entirely?

[Thane]

3 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

He shoots her because he wants her to stop talking. I mean... what the hell kind of sense does that make? The answer: none. It's just another check off the list of things that make Takumi an unbearable a-hole.

Or, you know, because she's part of the royal family that is currently invading his homeland. One or the other.

[DragonFlames]

Just now, Thane said:

Or, you know, because she's part of the royal family that is currently invading his homeland. One or the other.

Sure, that WOULD be the logical justification, but Takumi didn't say anything along those lines and he made no attempt to shoot Camilla, who is also a Nohrian princess, not to mention a much bigger target, either, so... take it or leave it, I guess.
Fates' story is stupid and contrived anyway. It and its royal families it liked to wank off to can rot in hell for all I care. I am SO glad Azura is not going to be in the base game, you have no idea.

More importantly, how is Warriors' overarching plot anyway? To be completely honest, I'm on the fence of getting this game or not, since a few characters I like are in it and musou games are usually very fun to play, so the only thing stopping me from buying it (aside from the idiot siblings being part of it - and I'm not talking about Rowan and Lianna) is a bad / uninteresting storyline. 

[Nanima]

12 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Also @Nanima on the Leo threatening Lissa part: The reason Takumi gets so much heat for shooting Elise - at least from me, I don't know about everyone else - is that his justification for it is just stupid. He shoots her because he wants her to stop talking. I mean... what the hell kind of sense does that make? The answer: none. It's just another check off the list of things that make Takumi an unbearable a-hole.
I don't know the context for Leo threatening Lissa, of course, since I have neither played nor seen Warriors up until now, but if it really appeared as if she was threatening Camilla, I do believe we could justify it as a misunderstanding on Leo's part.
Though that begs the question why Leo would think that a 15-year old girl - a Cleric, no less - can somehow threaten his older sister, who is a trained soldier of Nohr, rides an undead wyvern (it's not a dragon if it doesn't have arms), uses an axe herself and is possibly way more experienced a fighter than Lissa, even if Lissa has an axe, too.

He is also at least partially possessed at that point, so it's hard to make moral statements on his character over that action.

Also, Leo doesn't just threaten Lissa, he actually hurts her (complete with sound effect and Lissa yelping in pain). He does (somehow) believe that his sisters are being held hostage by the Heroes, but Lissa was literally just standing next to Camilla entirely unarmed and not making any direct moves against her. He also struck from the shadows with literally no warning. I am not trying to argue about which action was worse, I just want them to be held to the same standard.

[Thane]

15 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Sure, that WOULD be the logical justification, but Takumi didn't say anything along those lines and he made no attempt to shoot Camilla, who is also a Nohrian princess, not to mention a much bigger target, either, so... take it or leave it, I guess.

So, wait, Takumi now has to explain the reason why he's shooting his enemies - you know, the aggressors in the conflict? What's so strange about him shooting Elise for drawing attention to herself? If there's something off it's the fact that Corrin and Elise tank a hit from a legendary bow without any sort of lasting consequences.

[donkeykhang]

7 minutes ago, Nanima said:

He does (somehow) believe that his sisters are being held hostage by the Heroes

My impression was that Niles witnessed at least the conclusion of Camilla's battle with the party and believed her to be held captive after her loss. He then reports her defeat to Leo and that's as much as I remember. Granted, the scenes do feel a kinda forced for the sake of action gameplay.

[Nanima]

5 minutes ago, donkeykhang said:

My impression was that Niles witnessed at least the conclusion of Camilla's battle with the party and believed her to be held captive after her loss. He then reports her defeat to Leo and that's as much as I remember. Granted, the scenes do feel a kinda forced for the sake of action gameplay.

From what I remember (I'll have to watch the scene again once I get home to be sure.), Niles doesn't witness the end of the fight so much as simply notice Camilla and Elise in the presence of the Heroes. Literally all the siblings immediately believe their siblings to be prisoners with little justification (and continue to do so even as said sibling fights alongside their "captors". 

And even if that were the case, it's pretty questionable for Leon to immediately target the cleric girl (who might be a prisoners herself for all he knows) instead of say, the fully grown Pegasus Knight in the same group. Come to think of it, Cordelia's presence setting him off would almost be logical, too bad it's never brought up at all. 

[Ertrick36]

21 minutes ago, Thane said:

So, wait, Takumi now has to explain the reason why he's shooting his enemies - you know, the aggressors in the conflict? What's so strange about him shooting Elise for drawing attention to herself?

Because attacking designated medical personnel is typically seen as extremely scummy, so much so that there are actual regulations against such practices in times of war (at least among 1st-world governments).  And I'm pretty sure this sentiment dates back to centuries ago.

Granted in Warriors, Elise most certainly can fight, so it's less of an issue in this context.  But still, Elise is known first and foremost for being a healer and a relatively pacifistic person, so regardless of who she's actually working for, it still seems cruel and unnecessary.  Same goes for Lissa.

In any event, I'm sure they write off these ill-conceived acts as just "oh, they were slightly possessed" or whatever anyway.  Because that's how evil or meanness is always justified in Fates unless you're just some villainous mook that no one's supposed to care about.

[Thane]

1 minute ago, Ertrick36 said:

Because attacking designated medical personnel is typically seen as extremely scummy, so much so that there are actual regulations against such practices in times of war (at least among 1st-world governments).  And I'm pretty sure this sentiment dates back to centuries ago.

Even if we exclude the fact that you can make Elise into a combatant and that's her class' natural progression, and that her heritage guarantees she'll always be more powerful than the men serving her, she's still one of the few people capable of being able to influencing what's happening due to her position. She doesn't try this, however, and willingly invades another nation. If that doesn't warrant Takumi shooting such a person to defend his country, I don't know what does.

5 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

In any event, I'm sure they write off these ill-conceived acts as just "oh, they were slightly possessed" or whatever anyway.  Because that's how evil or meanness is always justified in Fates unless you're just some villainous mook that no one's supposed to care about.

I mean, it's pointless to even discuss this considering Birthright and Conquest effectively being non-canon bad endings. The true ending is the one that ends with kittens and sunshine.

[Nanima]

1 hour ago, Ertrick36 said:

Because attacking designated medical personnel is typically seen as extremely scummy, so much so that there are actual regulations against such practices in times of war (at least among 1st-world governments).  And I'm pretty sure this sentiment dates back to centuries ago.

Granted in Warriors, Elise most certainly can fight, so it's less of an issue in this context.  But still, Elise is known first and foremost for being a healer and a relatively pacifistic person, so regardless of who she's actually working for, it still seems cruel and unnecessary.  Same goes for Lissa.

In any event, I'm sure they write off these ill-conceived acts as just "oh, they were slightly possessed" or whatever anyway.  Because that's how evil or meanness is always justified in Fates unless you're just some villainous mook that no one's supposed to care about.

Well, typically a wounded soldier is pretty much down for the count in real life, and the medical personell moving in are just trying to collect the body for further, prolonged treatment. One has to wonder if attitudes aren't different in a fantasy setting where healers can bring someone back into fighting shape within seconds. Also FE healers have never been considered invalid targets, or did I miss the protags getting dragged in front of a jury for killing dozens of healers during gameplay?

[DragonFlames]

1 hour ago, Thane said:

Even if we exclude the fact that you can make Elise into a combatant and that's her class' natural progression, and that her heritage guarantees she'll always be more powerful than the men serving her, she's still one of the few people capable of being able to influencing what's happening due to her position. She doesn't try this, however, and willingly invades another nation. If that doesn't warrant Takumi shooting such a person to defend his country, I don't know what does.

I mean, it's pointless to even discuss this considering Birthright and Conquest effectively being non-canon bad endings. The true ending is the one that ends with kittens and sunshine.

The pointlessness of the discussion starts with Fates' shitty plot being what it is.

2 hours ago, Nanima said:

He is also at least partially possessed at that point, so it's hard to make moral statements on his character over that action.

Also, Leo doesn't just threaten Lissa, he actually hurts her (complete with sound effect and Lissa yelping in pain). He does (somehow) believe that his sisters are being held hostage by the Heroes, but Lissa was literally just standing next to Camilla entirely unarmed and not making any direct moves against her. He also struck from the shadows with literally no warning. I am not trying to argue about which action was worse, I just want them to be held to the same standard.

Well, from a pure morality standpoint (let's leave the pragmatic stuff aside for the moment), Not!Leon makes himself seem like quite the scumbag with his actions. Even more so than (unnamed owner of Fujin Yumi), because at least (unnamed owner of Fujin Yumi) had the balls to attack head on.
Isn't that great? The only halfway decent Royal (as if that is a great accomplishment...) and the storytellers insist on making him out to be an a-hole, too. Good job.

Yes, I have officially stopped recognizing (unnamed owner of Fujin Yumi)'s existence.

In all seriousness, though I won't go in-depth on this because everyone's specific moral standards are very different, I think it's part of 'justice' (inb4 someone quotes Xanderp) to judge everyone the same, regardless of who they are. Their race, gender, age, wealth, fame, social status or home country should not matter. I know it's different in reality as sad as it is, but that's the way I see it, the way I always saw it and the way I always will see it.

EDIT: Well, in PoR and New Mystery, there are chapters where you can choose to spare the healers. You even get some decent rewards out of it, as far as I can remember (BEXP in PoR, something else in New Mystery and presumably FE3 Book 2 as well).

Edited September 29, 2017 by DragonFlames

[wissenschaft]

As much as I enjoy ragging on Takumi, he is partially possessed which explains his aggressiveness and obsession with fighting Nohr. #NotTakumiFault

As for Leo striking from the shadows at an easy target (poor Lissa), doesn't seem out of character to me. His personal skill is literally called Pragmatic (bonus damage for picking on the injured).

But lets not argue over Fates Royals. Back to what this thread is about. Please share more story details, Nanima. And thank you!

Edited September 29, 2017 by wissenschaft

[Nanima]

9 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

But lets not argue over Fates Royals. Back to what this thread is about. Please share more story details, Nanima. And thank you!

No problem! It's nice to be able to stay civil on these kind of debates even if our opinions on the characters may differ.

As for the story, I haven't made too much progress, since I had little time to play yesterday and then got busy grinding maps to unlock supports and translate them (Reaching A rank actually takes more time than I thought.). I did however complete the last of the Nohrian chapters (same deal as the Hoshidan one, though I was surprised they didn't get a reunion CG like the Broshidos).

Also the second-to-last Fates chapter. It starts out with both the Nohrian and Hoshida royals accusing each other of having taken Corrin captive. Lianna and Rowan manage to confirm that neither of them have done so, and so they come across Ryouma and Marx having a standoff at a bridge. Both also accuse the other of harboring Corrin when suddenly an arrow flies from the Hoshidan side at Marx, who just swats it aside with his sword. Ryouma reacts surprised, since he didn't order anyone to shoot (even wondering where it came from). Marx however takes this as a sign that Ryouma isn't interested in talking anymore and orders his men to attack, forcing Ryouma to do the same. Clearly the situation is being manipulated by someone.

You the have to try and fight your way through both armies before either Marx or Ryouma falls at the hands of the other. (Happened to Ryouma during my first attempt, which is the opposite of what usually happens in Fates.) All the while the siblings comment that something strange is going on with both armies. (Didn't catch what exactly was wrong with it, over the game shouting HURRRY HURRY HURRY at me. I hate time-limits.) Afterwards Marx and Ryouma just vanished somewhere, so I am assuming the possession thing happens next chapter.

I'll tell you about once I played it.