blah the Prussian Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41461032 What a damn mess, seriously. Basically, the Catalan government wanted an independence referendum that was illegal under the Spanish Constitution, and that Madrid had no obligation to respect. So, they have their referendum, and what does PM Rajoy do? He sends in riot police! I can't put into words how stupid this choice is. This is Corrin in Conquest stupid(Serenes's law). If this referendum is no threat to you(and make no mistake, the referendum is illegitimate; there are, for example, no restrictions on people voting twice) you don't send a bunch of riot police and make everyone pissed off at you! Frankly, I don't know if Catalan independence can be avoided. For now, though, congratulations, Rajoy, you just made me sympathize with secessionists. Never thought I'd see the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Spain is very protective of Catalonia, aren't they? I remember them basically telling Scotland they would deny them joining the EU if they were to go independent because they are afraid that this would embolden Catalonia to do the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punished Dayni Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Last I checked, 92 people were injured by police trying to stop the referendum from happening. This is a mess that the Spanish government could have prevented by letting it be calmer and of course the referendum is a mess and the result should be in doubt before the government responded. Irregardless of what side you're on, this referendum can't be held as legitimate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetragrammaton Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 6 hours ago, blah the Prussian said: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41461032 What a damn mess, seriously. Basically, the Catalan government wanted an independence referendum that was illegal under the Spanish Constitution, and that Madrid had no obligation to respect. So, they have their referendum, and what does PM Rajoy do? He sends in riot police! I can't put into words how stupid this choice is. This is Corrin in Conquest stupid(Serenes's law). If this referendum is no threat to you(and make no mistake, the referendum is illegitimate; there are, for example, no restrictions on people voting twice) you don't send a bunch of riot police and make everyone pissed off at you! Frankly, I don't know if Catalan independence can be avoided. For now, though, congratulations, Rajoy, you just made me sympathize with secessionists. Never thought I'd see the day. Imagine when the first world countries supported Yugoslavia/Kosovo and then said Russia/Crimea is illegal. I'd say I want to see a Civil War. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moblin Major General Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) Franco would be proud, Minister Rajoy. Edited October 2, 2017 by Hylian Air Force Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, hanhnn said: Imagine when the first world countries supported Yugoslavia/Kosovo and then said Russia/Crimea is illegal. I'd say I want to see a Civil War. . . .do you even know what a civil war entails? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 6 hours ago, hanhnn said: Imagine when the first world countries supported Yugoslavia/Kosovo and then said Russia/Crimea is illegal. I'd say I want to see a Civil War. Well, Kosovo had a reason for independence, in that they were the victims of atrocities. Atrocities against Catalans ceased after Franco died. There is no equivalency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetragrammaton Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 30 minutes ago, blah the Prussian said: Well, Kosovo had a reason for independence, in that they were the victims of atrocities. Atrocities against Catalans ceased after Franco died. There is no equivalency. In fact, it is the other way around, people want their independence, and what they get is always atrocities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, hanhnn said: In fact, it is the other way around, people want their independence, and what they get is always atrocities. The Federal Government of Yugoslavia was overreaching in terms of its powers to a degree that the Spanish government clearly is not doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Water Mage Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Honest question, what does Catalonia have that Spain wants to keep so much? What's so important that they would send the riot police? Because seriously, it was a peaceful protest, and sending the riot police makes you look like a tyrant. It's the fastest way to lose support from others countries. Hell, I would say it even backfired because now, it has caught the attention of the world, and they are siding with Catalonia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetragrammaton Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 6 hours ago, blah the Prussian said: The Federal Government of Yugoslavia was overreaching in terms of its powers to a degree that the Spanish government clearly is not doing. Things change over time. Being a western European country does not automatically make Spain superior than a former Soviet country. 23 minutes ago, Water Mage said: Honest question, what does Catalonia have that Spain wants to keep so much? What's so important that they would send the riot police? Because seriously, it was a peaceful protest, and sending the riot police makes you look like a tyrant. It's the fastest way to lose support from others countries. Hell, I would say it even backfired because now, it has caught the attention of the world, and they are siding with Catalonia. I guess not every source gives you this information Quote It would have a gross domestic product of $314 billion (£195bn), according to calculations by the OECD, which would make it the 34th largest economy in the world. That would make it bigger than Portugal or Hong Kong. Its GDP per capita would be $35,000, which would make it wealthier than South Korea, Israel or Italy. And Catalonia's contribution to the Spanish economy is twice that of Scotland’s to the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 7 hours ago, Water Mage said: Honest question, what does Catalonia have that Spain wants to keep so much? What's so important that they would send the riot police? Because seriously, it was a peaceful protest, and sending the riot police makes you look like a tyrant. It's the fastest way to lose support from others countries. Hell, I would say it even backfired because now, it has caught the attention of the world, and they are siding with Catalonia. It being part of the country is reason enough, but it's also a very prosperous region. They sent riot police to try to stop an illegal referendum, but the really stupid thing is that they had no real reason to attempt to stop this referendum. 7 hours ago, hanhnn said: Things change over time. Being a western European country does not automatically make Spain superior than a former Soviet country. ...yeah, and when Rajoy pulls half the shit Milosevic pulled we can talk about independence. Until then, there is no region for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Water Mage Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 38 minutes ago, hanhnn said: Things change over time. Being a western European country does not automatically make Spain superior than a former Soviet country. I guess not every source gives you this information 20 minutes ago, blah the Prussian said: It being part of the country is reason enough, but it's also a very prosperous region. They sent riot police to try to stop an illegal referendum, but the really stupid thing is that they had no real reason to attempt to stop this referendum. Ah, I was aware it was prosperous region, but I wasn't aware of the full numbers. But it still it was pretty stupid that resorted to violence. Like I said before, it backfired for a number reasons. Besides it makes Spain look desperate in the eyes of other countries, as if Spain believes that they can't be a prosperous country without Catalonia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 7 hours ago, Water Mage said: Ah, I was aware it was prosperous region, but I wasn't aware of the full numbers. But it still it was pretty stupid that resorted to violence. Like I said before, it backfired for a number reasons. Besides it makes Spain look desperate in the eyes of other countries, as if Spain believes that they can't be a prosperous country without Catalonia. Yep, Spain gets the bad optics of beating up protesters for a reward that would have been worse than doing nothing in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetragrammaton Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 9 hours ago, Water Mage said: Ah, I was aware it was prosperous region, but I wasn't aware of the full numbers. But it still it was pretty stupid that resorted to violence. Like I said before, it backfired for a number reasons. Besides it makes Spain look desperate in the eyes of other countries, as if Spain believes that they can't be a prosperous country without Catalonia. They even don't speak the same language, and don't share the same culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) I would guess there's also the setting up a precedent behind the objection. They let the Catalans go... and what then if the Basque ask for the same? The Galicians? Any other non-Castillians? Other Castillians? It's nothing new, really, considering the situation of people living within borders. Or cross-borders, for that matter (like what do you think an independent Catalunya would mean for the French Catalans?). Edited October 3, 2017 by Acacia Sgt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetragrammaton Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 A few images Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 7:16 AM, Water Mage said: Honest question, what does Catalonia have that Spain wants to keep so much? What's so important that they would send the riot police? Because seriously, it was a peaceful protest, and sending the riot police makes you look like a tyrant. It's the fastest way to lose support from others countries. Hell, I would say it even backfired because now, it has caught the attention of the world, and they are siding with Catalonia. They pay more in taxes to Spain than they get back. They're not sovereign but one of many states in Spain -- and let's be real, secession like this has the potential to lead to widespread revolution that can cause a sense of destabilization. Domestic issues especially dealing with sovereignty sends ripples. It's equivalent to basically California and Texas seceding. It also subverts democracy by giving people a voice but they would secede if they disagree with any actions taken up top. Catalonia also has a lot to lose with vying for independence and it ends up being a zero-sum game if it is handled the best that can possibly be. But the best case scenario won't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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