Res Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Blaming it on unspecified 'mental illness is a cop out to avoid talking about/understanding any of the other motives shooters have. That's an article from 2015 that is every bit as applicable here; as in the case of the Charleston shooter, Paddock was not diagnosed with any mental illness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushen Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Just because you're not diagnosed with a mental illness doesn't mean you don't have one - especially when you get over the age of 60. The story fits better than any crazy conspiracy theories people are trying to come up with. His girlfriend said his mental state was declining. His neighbors said he was extremely anti-social. His family said he was very introverted. Why the hell is everyone so against the fact that a mental illness can cause people to go crazy? It happens all the time. Is this just one of those things where we avoid the truth because we don't want to upset anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, Lushen said: Just because you're not diagnosed with a mental illness doesn't mean you don't have one - especially when you get over the age of 60. The story fits better than any crazy conspiracy theories people are trying to come up with. His girlfriend said his mental state was declining. His neighbors said he was extremely anti-social. His family said he was very introverted. Why the hell is everyone so against the fact that a mental illness can cause people to go crazy? It happens all the time. Is this just one of those things where we avoid the truth because we don't want to upset anyone? Did you read the post directly above yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushen Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Just now, eclipse said: Did you read the post directly above yours? Yes. Which is why I said that just because it's not diagnosed doesn't mean it's not present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Just now, Lushen said: Yes. Which is why I said that just because it's not diagnosed doesn't mean it's not present. Do disagree with the logic presented in that post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 11 minutes ago, Lushen said: Why the hell is everyone so against the fact that a mental illness can cause people to go crazy? - stigma. it can get quickly out of hand by mental illness hysteria; they already have ISIS hysteria, so imagine being stigmatized for any mental illness (including depression). it's already pretty fucking bad, don't get me wrong, but it's going to actively make it worse. - point 2: "Blaming it on unspecified 'mental illness is a cop out to avoid talking about/understanding any of the other motives shooters have." - @Res Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushen Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 1 minute ago, eclipse said: Do disagree with the logic presented in that post? I'm sure mental illness is used as a cop-out occasionally. But I disagree that it should be thrown out as an impossibility in this case. I even think the article mentioned quite a few cases where it was used in court to get the killer a reduced sentence. However, these individuals had a clear motive - such as hatred for a specific demographic that caused them to target said demographic. In this case, the shooter didn't really have a motive other than to kill as many people as possible. Unless a motive is determined, I don't see how it could be anything but a declined mental state. I have a family member with a mental illness and she is incredibly violent without medicine. Yes, mental illness alone cannot cause you to be a murderer and not all mental illnesses make you more violent, but some make you considerably more violent or react significantly more aggressively than normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Lushen said: Unless a motive is determined, I don't see how it could be anything but a declined mental state. I have a family member with a mental illness and she is incredibly violent without medicine. depression is a mental illness. you don't want to go down this route. regardless, why not wait until the facts come out? that's pretty much the point that we are making that you seem to be missing. Edited October 8, 2017 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushen Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Just now, Lord Raven said: depression is a mental illness. you don't want to go down this route. regardless, why not wait until the facts come out? that's pretty much the point. I encourage waiting for the facts to come out. I just didn't like how people seemed to be dismissing mental illness like it's, for some reason, not a valid reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) I don't understand why it cannot be multiple factors. I'd say mental illness is an often stigmatised issue in the US and other countries, and deserves to be given more attention to. At the same time, you don't just say "mental illness, that's it, nothing we could do." If these things are ever to be addressed it is likely they will require a multiple pronged approach. Edited October 8, 2017 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, Lushen said: I encourage waiting for the facts to come out. I just didn't like how people seemed to be dismissing mental illness like it's, for some reason, not a valid reason. the people in this thread that are telling you to hop off the mental illness accusation did not make any speculative posts about potential motive. most of this thread was about gun control and how it's likely not ISIS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoblongoo Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) This sorta goes back to the point I made in the thread that popped up after the terrorist attacks in Manchester arena. But you will never, ever, ever, ever, ever see the Lushen's of the world pipe in with "...well the guy was obviously mentally ill..." ater a jihadist attack. And this should go without saying. But we can imagine how radically different his response and the response of Trump and co. would be under the same set of facts...only except instead of Stephen Paddock, the shooters name is Abdul Al-Wahim. And he's a first-generation immigrant. Then--ohhhhhhhh, lord have mercy--we'd be hearing nonstop how unacceptable it is that something like this could happen in America. How we can never allow something like this to happen again. How we immediately need to change our laws and our policies, and you don't care about keeping Americans safe if you don't support "common sense laws" against gun violence immigrants and refugees. ...but the attacker is Stephen Paddock... So its all good. This is just "the price of freedom." Theres nothing we can do; you can't prove that any law would have stopped this from happening. Attacks like this are just a part of living in a free country. And if you don't get that, you're trying to exploit a tragedy for political gain. ...that's that subtle racism we keep talking about. Edited October 8, 2017 by Shoblongoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peener weener Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 2 hours ago, Lushen said: I encourage waiting for the facts to come out. I just didn't like how people seemed to be dismissing mental illness like it's, for some reason, not a valid reason. it's reductive, dismissive, misinformed, baseless speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moblin Major General Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 57 minutes ago, fartboi said: it's reductive, dismissive, misinformed, baseless speculation. So, terrorism? The Manchester bridge attack had nothing to do with terror, and yet it was immediately labeled such. Which one scares people more? Someone who lost it due to (most of the time) no fault of their own? Or a fanatic who instills nothing but fear and hatred for his cause by targeting innocent people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 He didn't 'just lose it'. This was apparently months in the planning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moblin Major General Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 21 minutes ago, Res said: He didn't 'just lose it'. This was apparently months in the planning. San Bernadino was planned in minutes. Pre-meditation is not always a cornerstone of terrorism, nor does a terrorist attack require any sort of planning (Nice was a good example of that.) Being able to plan and calculate does not mean, at least in criminal law, sanity. The Joker is a good example of this, especially in the 90s cartoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetragrammaton Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think "mass shooting" is kind of a feature in US. When you get so bored, you can try to kill as many people as you can. You can't do that elsewhere, US is the only country that can allow you to do it with free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said: So, terrorism? The Manchester bridge attack had nothing to do with terror, and yet it was immediately labeled such. Which one scares people more? Someone who lost it due to (most of the time) no fault of their own? Or a fanatic who instills nothing but fear and hatred for his cause by targeting innocent people? Is anyone in this thread calling him a terrorist? actually let me back up: HFA, I have no idea how what you said had anything to do with what stolypin said. 1 hour ago, hanhnn said: I think "mass shooting" is kind of a feature in US. When you get so bored, you can try to kill as many people as you can. You can't do that elsewhere, US is the only country that can allow you to do it with free will. I don't know what you're trying to say either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 5 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said: San Bernadino was planned in minutes. Pre-meditation is not always a cornerstone of terrorism, nor does a terrorist attack require any sort of planning (Nice was a good example of that.) Being able to plan and calculate does not mean, at least in criminal law, sanity. The Joker is a good example of this, especially in the 90s cartoon. Getting a hotel room in the middle of a giant music fest requires a lot of foresight. Those things tend to go like hotcakes. This definitely wasn't a spur-of-the-moment attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushen Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 12 hours ago, eclipse said: Getting a hotel room in the middle of a giant music fest requires a lot of foresight. Those things tend to go like hotcakes. This definitely wasn't a spur-of-the-moment attack. Additionally, there were notes found in the room calculating trajectories. And he was seen stocking up on supplies at various gun stores and asking about how some of them work. This was highly premeditative. However, that doesn't mean it's not that he's crazy. It just means that he didn't just get really frustrated one day and do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ping Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 36 minutes ago, Lushen said: However, that doesn't mean it's not that he's crazy. That's poor reason to just assume that he was "crazy". You don't have to be mentally ill in order to be evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lushen Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 14 minutes ago, ping said: That's poor reason to just assume that he was "crazy". You don't have to be mentally ill in order to be evil. I've said this several times. I am not saying he is definitively crazy. I am saying that it is a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Lushen said: I've said this several times. I am not saying he is definitively crazy. I am saying that it is a possibility. Which mental illness would you say he has? Mental illness/crazy is a broad term i mean I suffer from pretty awful depression and that makes me mentally ill. But I wouldn't shoot up a concert Edited October 9, 2017 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ping Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lushen said: I've said this several times. I am not saying he is definitively crazy. I am saying that it is a possibility. I'm not saying he is definitely hired by the GOP. I am saying that it is a possibility. Actually, no, I'm not saying that either, because it would silly to just throw around wild theories with no factual backing. Edited October 9, 2017 by ping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peener weener Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Lord Raven said: Which mental illness would you say he has? Mental illness/crazy is a broad term i mean I suffer from pretty awful depression and that makes me mentally ill. But I wouldn't shoot up a concert He said his father was "diagnosed with psychopathy" so my guess is he doesn't really know the first thing about mental illness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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