Is Camilla that good in conquest? (lunatic)

[JimmyBeans]

I've seen so many threads and tier lists saying Camilla is the best unit in the game which I don't see why that is true in the slightest. She joins as early as chapter 10 (which is heaven sent) as a pre-promote and is very useful at the time and is decently good through the whole mid game, but she always seems to fall off pretty hard at the end with lower hp and mediocre defenses, which I don't think qualifies her in the slightest to be the best unit in conquest. Were these polls talking about hard-conquest? or what? And before you say I got screwed with the level ups I'll say that I am about to finish my 4th lunatic run of conquest and every result has been the same, I even re classed her to wyvern lord and the same result  happened (given she was a little better). After all my play throughs I would argue that Beruka scales a bit better as a mobile bulk unit given her better defenses. Also anyone who has played conquest knows that every enemy does a lot of damage in the late game, so even the tankiest unit, Benny, who takes 0-1 damage from any physical attack in the mid game, will get hit 10-18 damage attacks from sword users and the like in the late game. So I am not expecting some crazy awesome frontline unit that is unbreakable, but it's to the point the Camilla has trouble killing a single unit without a high risk of death, Alls she can do in my runs late game is sit back and then use her high movement to clean up after we break through the enemy line.

So tell me why you guys think she is, or at least why  you think she is so high tier in the game. I for one think Xander and effie are better given that xander( with a speedwing or paired up charlotte) can wall off anything and OHKO his weakness which are mages, and effie with a forged javelin and wary fighter can do the same. Let me know what makes Camilla so good, I only find her as a decent mid game unit at best. Maybe I just am really that unlucky with level ups....

[Agro]

Camilla is a useful unit because she joins with great stats for her level and remains usable until the endgame. She has fantastic utility for a long time and is absolutely critical for pulling off a lot of strats in the first half of the game with minimal investment from the player. She does indeed begin to fall off by the end but her usefulness in the first half outweighs this. She can be patched up with a Bolt Axe and Spirit Dusts (no one else really needs them). Many recommend reclassing her to Wyvern Lord which reduces her magic stat so I don't really think this is the best idea. Maybe just for Rally.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Agro

[Dark Holy Elf]

I didn't find her to fall off in the slighest any of the times I played the game. Her Def is quite good even late, and her Str/Spd combo is basically unmatched. Her HP/Res could be better but they're not horrid; any other unit would kill to have those as their weak stats.

I for one think Xander and effie are better given that xander( with a speedwing or paired up charlotte) can wall off anything and OHKO his weakness which are mages, and effie with a forged javelin and wary fighter can do the same.

Level 15 General Effie only beats Level 20 Wyvern Lord Camilla by 4 def and 3 HP. She's tankier but not dramatically; as you note enemy atk is high so Effie will often only be able to take one more hit, if that. Meanwhile Camilla has comparable attack (lower Str but has Trample [and/or potentially Axefaire]), can actually double, has 3 more move (Effie can close this gap as a Great Knight but then loses 2+ points off her Def lead), and needed less exp to get to this point. Even if you find Effie better late (which I strongly disagree with), Camilla is obviously a better unit overall because a small win at lategame doesn't offset a big win early.

Xander may be able to OHKO some mages (though not the tankier ones in my experience, Xander's Str is not that special) but they still threaten him on the enemy phase. He's an outstanding unit but he has some drawbacks of his own compared to Camilla, namely significant losses in all of Str, Spd, and Res.

[UNLEASH IT]

If Camilla falls off at endgame, who stays on?

[SavageVolug]

Well, I always use BOTH Camilla and Beruka. And while the skills in Malig Knight are probably better I find that Camilla performs better as a Wyvern lord than a malig knight. Usually her magic is alright at best and if she needs to do a ranged attack generally she does more damage with a hand axe or javelin than she does with magic. Basically Wyvern lord has better stats than malig knight. Is she the best Wyvern unit? Initially yes, long term well that depends on how your level ups go.

[JimmyBeans]

1 hour ago, UNLEASH IT said:

If Camilla falls off at endgame, who stays on?

Corrin (if hes a ninja or paladin, if you keep him a nohr noble then hes really squishy), Effie I still find her really good late because she can still 2 hit enemies, Xander paired with charlotte is a legend, Peri as a great knight scaled really hard actually( because of her personal skill). There are plenty more, but it seems for me that Camilla always becomes one of my weakest units besides the pair up fodder out of my endgame team.

[JimmyBeans]

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I didn't find her to fall off in the slighest any of the times I played the game. Her Def is quite good even late, and her Str/Spd combo is basically unmatched. Her HP/Res could be better but they're not horrid; any other unit would kill to have those as their weak stats.

 

 

Level 15 General Effie only beats Level 20 Wyvern Lord Camilla by 4 def and 3 HP. She's tankier but not dramatically; as you note enemy atk is high so Effie will often only be able to take one more hit, if that. Meanwhile Camilla has comparable attack (lower Str but has Trample [and/or potentially Axefaire]), can actually double, has 3 more move (Effie can close this gap as a Great Knight but then loses 2+ points off her Def lead), and needed less exp to get to this point. Even if you find Effie better late (which I strongly disagree with), Camilla is obviously a better unit overall because a small win at lategame doesn't offset a big win early.

Xander may be able to OHKO some mages (though not the tankier ones in my experience, Xander's Str is not that special) but they still threaten him on the enemy phase. He's an outstanding unit but he has some drawbacks of his own compared to Camilla, namely significant losses in all of Str, Spd, and Res.

Your right about Xander, maybe I found him so good because I S ranked Charlotte with him, which covers his weaknesses pretty well giving him more strength and a lot more speed. And from you description it sounds like she can be really good even late game, I'm probably gone try her again (because I love conquest and play it to much), and try some things out, like maybe giving her some spirit dusts (since you get a lot of those for some reason) for a bolt axe. I also probably just didn't get good level ups, which I though wasn't possible considering I've played lunatic conquest like 4 times, because I never found her doubling anyone late game. (at least no one doubled her)

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

Your right about Xander, maybe I found him so good because I S ranked Charlotte with him, which covers his weaknesses pretty well giving him more strength and a lot more speed. And from you description it sounds like she can be really good even late game, I'm probably gone try her again (because I love conquest and play it to much), and try some things out, like maybe giving her some spirit dusts (since you get a lot of those for some reason) for a bolt axe. I also probably just didn't get good level ups, which I though wasn't possible considering I've played lunatic conquest like 4 times, because I never found her doubling anyone late game. (at least no one doubled her)

If you have the save data remaining, compare to her averages available here. Then you'll be able to see if you got screwed with her again and again.

[JimmyBeans]

38 minutes ago, SavageVolug said:

Well, I always use BOTH Camilla and Beruka. And while the skills in Malig Knight are probably better I find that Camilla performs better as a Wyvern lord than a malig knight. Usually her magic is alright at best and if she needs to do a ranged attack generally she does more damage with a hand axe or javelin than she does with magic. Basically Wyvern lord has better stats than malig knight. Is she the best Wyvern unit? Initially yes, long term well that depends on how your level ups go.

That's mainly what I was thinking, Beruka seems to be better late in my runs, Which I am ok with a payoff like that considering you get her as a level 9 and Camilla as a prepromote on the same mission. I usually tend to go for beruka over Camilla for that reason, since I have found a way to get away with not using her on some levels.

[guedesbrawl]

Camilla will only ever fall off if you keep her in a class with low SPD caps.

The Fighter line (which she gets from Beruka as well as her best hubby, Keaton) offrs Camilla exactly what she needs to succeed.

She can also be a surprisingly good support unit with Rally STr stacking with her Personal. That's 14 extra damage if the unit doubles, if imy math is correct.

[JimmyBeans]

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

If you have the save data remaining, compare to her averages available here. Then you'll be able to see if you got screwed with her again and again.

I only have the data for one of them still... and ya, she has 31 hp by the end, and 29 spd. I think she was especially weak on this run, bu the other ones I  don't remember being any better. On the other hand these stats averages look good, she seems way better than I've seen for sure.

[guedesbrawl]

4 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

I only have the data for one of them still... and ya, she has 31 hp by the end, and 29 spd. I think she was especially weak on this run, bu the other ones I  don't remember being any better. On the other hand these stats averages look good, she seems way better than I've seen for sure.

Like I said, take a look at her fighter spread.

Reclassed at level 5:

48 HP (+5)

37 STR (+2) (+5 with Faire down the line)

29 SKL

34 SPD (cap)

16 LCK

22 DEF

18 RES

Keaton gives her +7 STR, +4 SPD, +2 DEF at S Rank (+1 STR/-1SPD if he's a zerk instead of wolf), ending up with something like 51 ATK before weapons, and with the SPD to double most things (Azura's song by itself lets her double ninjas. She will need Rally Speed and Laslow's personal to double a Swordmaster... assuming no tonics/meals).

Fairly insane stuff. She can also do a quick swap to Bow Knight in Hinoka's map if she A+s Selena to grab shruikenbreaker.

[Shadow Mir]

8 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

Corrin (if hes a ninja or paladin, if you keep him a nohr noble then hes really squishy), Effie I still find her really good late because she can still 2 hit enemies, Xander paired with charlotte is a legend, Peri as a great knight scaled really hard actually( because of her personal skill). There are plenty more, but it seems for me that Camilla always becomes one of my weakest units besides the pair up fodder out of my endgame team.

How is Nohr Noble Corrin squishy but Master Ninja Corrin not???

7 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

Camilla will only ever fall off if you keep her in a class with low SPD caps.

The Fighter line (which she gets from Beruka as well as her best hubby, Keaton) offrs Camilla exactly what she needs to succeed.

She can also be a surprisingly good support unit with Rally STr stacking with her Personal. That's 14 extra damage if the unit doubles, if imy math is correct.

Personally, I fail to see what Fighter offers her that's worthwhile other than HP+5. And I find Berserker really unappealing, especially on someone like Camilla who already has issues with facing crit chances.

[JimmyBeans]

45 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

How is Nohr Noble Corrin squishy but Master Ninja Corrin not???

I should of clarified that part, While the master ninja is still squishy he has safety with shurikens because of 2 range. and still has access to the yato. he gets more speed as well which helps with dodge and helps him double more people to get dual guard up faster. My argument was that master ninja corrin was better late game, not that it was tankier. I just didnt explain that specifically.

I hope that makes sense.

[joshcja]

Nhorble has 1-2 range via levin, it's not terrible, ninja just offers (Significantly weaker than diviner/mage) 1-2 a bit earlier along with +1 move in guard stance (sightly earlier). The earlier +1 move is way more relevant but it's also much weaker than draco, because flight and servant flight (this also has stronger 1-2 because bolt axe, tomes, and SuperFelecia).

Camiia only falls off when compared to the games EP blender builds (vantage+lod!sorc. sol+damage stack!MN, Talismanspam!xander) past that she's a pre-promote bird with comparable stats at 20/20 to trainer birds and fast exp growth with very good support adds and an abusive personal skill. She also has access to the bolt axe+aurastack MK and damage stack Be builds for some serious lategame shenanigans if you feel like investing.

Edit: Camilia is not the best unit in the game because she's not Niles. Kidnap is beyond busted and effectively reads "Niles has every skill in the game, at the same time, with no relevant investment".

Levant, we know you hate zerker, but, hp+5/axefaire/axebreaker/rally str on top of the highest class growths/bases in the game is pretty strong. Even just dipping 4 levels for faire is reasonable as Camilia has a laughably low internal level that lets her hit xl15 by ch22 reliably without heavy investment.

Edited October 4, 2017 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

I should of clarified that part, While the master ninja is still squishy he has safety with shurikens because of 2 range. and still has access to the yato. he gets more speed as well which helps with dodge and helps him double more people to get dual guard up faster. My argument was that master ninja corrin was better late game, not that it was tankier. I just didnt explain that specifically.

I hope that makes sense.

Erm, it isn't like Nohr Noble's helpless at range... Also, I'm not sure that the extra speed would do much in the way of defensive implications. As for the dual guard argument, I honestly find pairing up more situational in this game.

[guedesbrawl]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

How is Nohr Noble Corrin squishy but Master Ninja Corrin not???

Personally, I fail to see what Fighter offers her that's worthwhile other than HP+5. And I find Berserker really unappealing, especially on someone like Camilla who already has issues with facing crit chances.

As per the average spread i posted above: Fairly huge STR (not Effie/Charlie levels but pretty good), great SPD because her cap isn't 28 (Malig) or 30 (Wyv. Lord) but 34, great HP, reasonable DEF/RES/SKL. She should be wrecking things with no difficulty, and smart positioning (Especially with Lunge) should ensure people benefit from her Personal's +3ATK/-1DMG

Crit? lol. Arthur is low tier and Kaze shouldn't be fighting weapons that can crit him unless they hit for RES (only an issue if he tries fighting the Mjolnir mage in C26). Dump all your Goddess Statues on Camilla. Always.

 

[guedesbrawl]

3 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

I should of clarified that part, While the master ninja is still squishy he has safety with shurikens because of 2 range. and still has access to the yato. he gets more speed as well which helps with dodge and helps him double more people to get dual guard up faster. My argument was that master ninja corrin was better late game, not that it was tankier. I just didnt explain that specifically.

I hope that makes sense.

I'm sorry but Nohr Noble Corrin is not fragile. Not unless you want him to be--you've got access to Dragonstone+ for god's sake. Nevermind you can reap the benefits from Jakob's personal because you're Corrin.

The basic HP/LCK Corrin is tanky as hell. Not Benny tank, okay. But DgS+ makes his expected 20/20 defensive spread be 51 HP, 34 DEF, 28 RES. Then you consider Rallies(4DEF/RES), Auras (Strategist Elise can give up to +7 RES/DEF, but not always viable), Pair-up (GK!Jakob gives +7 DEF/3RES)... and that's one beefy dragon. Never mind adding tonics and mess hall to this mix.

[Shadow Mir]

11 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

As per the average spread i posted above: Fairly huge STR (not Effie/Charlie levels but pretty good), great SPD because her cap isn't 28 (Malig) or 30 (Wyv. Lord) but 34, great HP, reasonable DEF/RES/SKL. She should be wrecking things with no difficulty, and smart positioning (Especially with Lunge) should ensure people benefit from her Personal's +3ATK/-1DMG

Crit? lol. Arthur is low tier and Kaze shouldn't be fighting weapons that can crit him unless they hit for RES (only an issue if he tries fighting the Mjolnir mage in C26). Dump all your Goddess Statues on Camilla. Always.

 

You laugh, but I assure you, having to restart an annoying chapter because your Berserker died to a crit from a random grunt is no laughing matter. Also, Berserker Camilla gets a grand total of 6 crit evade at most (she has a -2 luck modifier, and Berserker ties for the lowest luck cap in the game).

Edited October 4, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[joshcja]

2 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You laugh, but I assure you, having to restart an annoying chapter because your Berserker died to a crit from a random grunt is no laughing matter.

I have never seen this happen. Ever.

Seriously stop complaining that the second bulkiest thing in fates can die to a random crit.

Edited October 4, 2017 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

10 minutes ago, joshcja said:

I have never seen this happen. Ever.

Good for you. Not everyone is that lucky. Fates, especially Conquest, being as unforgiving as it is, I just cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that Berserkers auto-lose to bad RNG.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[UNLEASH IT]

Why would you need to reclass to Fighter though? Wyvern Lord is more than enough.

[JimmyBeans]

21 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Erm, it isn't like Nohr Noble's helpless at range... Also, I'm not sure that the extra speed would do much in the way of defensive implications. As for the dual guard argument, I honestly find pairing up more situational in this game.

Of course... Nohr noble corrin is in no way a bad unit, im not saying that he is at all. I'm just saying that ninja is actually better at the late. Lots of conquest lunatic veterans will say that paladin and ninja corrin are the ways to go, and that is because they are better later in the game, remember the topic of the discussion

12 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

I'm sorry but Nohr Noble Corrin is not fragile. Not unless you want him to be--you've got access to Dragonstone+ for god's sake. Nevermind you can reap the benefits from Jakob's personal because you're Corrin.

The basic HP/LCK Corrin is tanky as hell. Not Benny tank, okay. But DgS+ makes his expected 20/20 defensive spread be 51 HP, 34 DEF, 28 RES. Then you consider Rallies(4DEF/RES), Auras (Strategist Elise can give up to +7 RES/DEF, but not always viable), Pair-up (GK!Jakob gives +7 DEF/3RES)... and that's one beefy dragon. Never mind adding tonics and mess hall to this mix.

I'm thinking that if you played this game on lunatic the only way you pulled off dragonstone+ in the late game is having a speed boon or a tonic/speedpairup. Dragonstone+ drops speed by 4, and that might not seem like much, but most corrins will get doubled by lunatic late game units with drag+. What your saying is completely true but we are talking mainly about late game and they get a lot of speedy units that cancel out that tankiness with double attacks.

[joshcja]

Pulling off DST+ in lunatic is a really complex build. You equip DST+, and then you don't die.

0x2 = 0

It's not 1-2 though so it's situational.

[UNLEASH IT]

Just now, joshcja said:

I have never seen this happen. Ever.

Seriously stop complaining that the second bulkiest thing in fates can die to a random crit.

Berserkers aren't bulky though