Is Camilla that good in conquest? (lunatic)

[guedesbrawl]

It's also worth noting Camilla, if she stays as a Malig, is your best user of Spirit dusts. Everyone else either has too much MAg for +2/4 to make a difference (Elise/Nyx) or are too slow to make use of the boost consistently (Leo/Odin)

Edited October 5, 2017 by guedesbrawl

[Shadow Mir]

17 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

Obsessive crit worrying aside, Zerks are always good when they have reasonable skills. Best one-rounding class in fates, especially in the Lance/Shuriken fest that CQ is. Camilla, and zerks in general, don't have that problem unless a crit happens, which is unlikely when you know what you're doing.

Camilla's crit problems as a Zerk are the same as her problems as a Malig since the swap changes neither growths nor caps. Her average is 16, cap 23. 2 Goddess Icons that nobody wants leaves her capped. Dodge is Luck/2, and that moves her natural dodge from 8 to 11 or 12. Guard Stance gives her +5 passively.

Crit is (SKL-4)/2 + Weapon Bonuses + Class Inherent Bonuses + Attack stance bonuses + Skill bonuses. Before applying all of those bonuses, assuming Camilla's dodge is rounded down, you'd need an enemy with around 40 SKL to have any crit on camilla: 38-4/2 > 34/2 -> 17. 17-16 = 1%. Just as an aside, Subaki in C22 has 32 SKL.

Most enemies with crit chance Camilla will have WTA against and negate their bonuses (which are already passively halved for the player, cuz IS loves us). If you send her against a killing edge it's just your fault.

Honestly, this is just overblown. Bad Strategizing is what makes you die from crits.

If you stick with strategist Elise (which I did because i banned reclassing), you'll see that there are plenty of enemies in PP she could kill if not for their counter attack, because she's too frail. That's all I meant. Camilla and zerks in general don't have that problem because of sheer HP, which Elise has none of.

That doesn't mean much when it comes with very high risk, due to crits being much more powerful for the enemy than they are for the player.

If you ignore the crit evade penalty that Berserkers have, that is, which you clearly did. Also, using guard stance means using up two units' turns at once, and unlike in Awakening, that cost is actually noticeable.

See above.

Heh. It's not like halved crit boosts manage to stop Berserkers from being much better on the enemy side than they are on the player side. And killer weapons are quite rare, frankly, so...

Correction: It's overblown to you, because you fail to see that crits are more powerful for the enemy.

Well, that's true... If you ignore that situations involving Berserkers are volatile ones with extremely high risk and very little reward, that is. You're only deceiving yourself if you think they're safe because of their high HP, because they aren't. Also, fwiw, I used Maid Elise in both my CQ runs, and aside from that, I still fail to see the comparison unless enemies started using those 1-2 range enemy only weapons.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[joshcja]

On dusting Cam.

There are 4 free dusts in cq not 2 + shop. +8-10 puts some units at the games soft damage cap and allows for silly things like the murderphelia build.

Camilia can bolt axe aurabot and she's solid at it but Elise/Elise's kid is better at it and the servants get the money skills faster. Still you only ever want 2 of this build tops so most team compositions prefer to use Cam elsewhere. (Example: It only takes 2 statues and 2 drops for a +12 stack be cam holding be hp/str boon be corin to orko lunatic takumi with the brave axe).

For raw damage bolt axing the gold standard is ohkoing the ch21 stonies and orkoing ch17/25 master ninja's and cam misses this even with the dark knight dip and every dust. She can brave axe/forged hand axe these as a WL/Be though with a drop.

It's viable to dust cam just not remotely optimal. She hits her benchmarks on the magic side off stack and the slight mag growth boost from dips.

Side note: Sorc's give 0 shits about doubling in this game. Thier shtic is nos and vantagestack abuse. Lighting is busted and kills everything on player phase regardless of unit speed if you can sling C tomes.

Levant, it is mathmaticly impossible for random mooks to crank out enough damage to ohko zerks on a crit under anything but the most humiliating and preventable circumstances (example: sorc lightning/killer/giddyup on ep vs heavy axe Be without rally or aura support). This is not random unpredictable time bomb death. This is bad play.

Edit: Pretty sure Nyx fails to cap mag on average. Her mag growth after the class boost is not significantly higher than Odin. it's her only tolerable growth sure, but it's still really low considering her base mag is only 2 points over an average not-rigged Odin at the same level and she's mostly denied sorc access by her negative bulk so her final mag should be within 2-3 points of him... in sorc. Gods Nyx is so bad.

Edited October 5, 2017 by joshcja

[Agro]

joshcja can you please speak in English so we don't all have to read your posts 5 times to understand them

Edited October 5, 2017 by Agro

[joshcja]

41 minutes ago, Agro said:

joshcja can you please speak in English so we don't all have to read your posts 5 times to understand them

I can say stack, or I can say malific aura/trample/whatever other boosts she grabs off A+/S support (probably elbow room+defender and strong riposte).

Etc.

Long hand would be a true wall of text 

Agree on a commonly used shorthand for complex recuring themes already. I'm tired of reading short novels of text for one relevant idea.

Edited October 5, 2017 by joshcja

[guedesbrawl]

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That doesn't mean much when it comes with very high risk, due to crits being much more powerful for the enemy than they are for the player.

If you ignore the crit evade penalty that Berserkers have, that is, which you clearly did. Also, using guard stance means using up two units' turns at once, and unlike in Awakening, that cost is actually noticeable.

See above.

Heh. It's not like halved crit boosts manage to stop Berserkers from being much better on the enemy side than they are on the player side. And killer weapons are quite rare, frankly, so...

Correction: It's overblown to you, because you fail to see that crits are more powerful for the enemy.

Well, that's true... If you ignore that situations involving Berserkers are volatile ones with extremely high risk and very little reward, that is. You're only deceiving yourself if you think they're safe because of their high HP, because they aren't. Also, fwiw, I used Maid Elise in both my CQ runs, and aside from that, I still fail to see the comparison unless enemies started using those 1-2 range enemy only weapons.

I genuinely forgot the crit evade penalty. But like Josh said, you need to play very badly to ever get done in by crits. (or you are too greedy. I believe Leo and Kaze both can solo-tank the mage room in C26 but can die if the Mjolnir one nets that crit). you forget that Camilla has more def than usual for a zerk, and again, that her LCK problem is easily fixable.

Yeah pair-up is not optimal for someone like Camilla who can solo people and likes attack stance hit bonuses more. But then again, it's a desperation tactic for people traumatized by crits like you. (though i will say some people might boost dodge on attack stance, but i play without battle cutscenes and can't find a database on attack stance bonuses) The risk is not high, at all, as long as your strategy isn't half-assed.

What I mean to say is that Strategist Elise does so much damage that she can ORKO lots of units. But some units have 1-2 weapons and will kill HER on counterstrike. Meaning she cannot attack those units without dual guard, def stack or maybe lightning (i forget how braves affect the flow of battle, but she probably kills with it). Camilla and most zerks, however, have enough bulk to eat a counterattack and kill the enemy without needing to worry. That's all.

4 hours ago, joshcja said:

 

Edit: Pretty sure Nyx fails to cap mag on average. Her mag growth after the class boost is not significantly higher than Odin. it's her only tolerable growth sure, but it's still really low considering her base mag is only 2 points over an average not-rigged Odin at the same level and she's mostly denied sorc access by her negative bulk so her final mag should be within 2-3 points of him... in sorc. Gods Nyx is so bad.

So you mean you'd reclass her out of Sorc while leaving Odin as one, right? Because they have a 8 MAg difference at Sorc endgame averages.

[joshcja]

38 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

I genuinely forgot the crit evade penalty. But like Josh said, you need to play very badly to ever get done in by crits. (or you are too greedy. I believe Leo and Kaze both can solo-tank the mage room in C26 but can die if the Mjolnir one nets that crit). you forget that Camilla has more def than usual for a zerk, and again, that her LCK problem is easily fixable.

Yeah pair-up is not optimal for someone like Camilla who can solo people and likes attack stance hit bonuses more. But then again, it's a desperation tactic for people traumatized by crits like you. (though i will say some people might boost dodge on attack stance, but i play without battle cutscenes and can't find a database on attack stance bonuses) The risk is not high, at all, as long as your strategy isn't half-assed.

What I mean to say is that Strategist Elise does so much damage that she can ORKO lots of units. But some units have 1-2 weapons and will kill HER on counterstrike. Meaning she cannot attack those units without dual guard, def stack or maybe lightning (i forget how braves affect the flow of battle, but she probably kills with it). Camilla and most zerks, however, have enough bulk to eat a counterattack and kill the enemy without needing to worry. That's all.

So you mean you'd reclass her out of Sorc while leaving Odin as one, right? Because they have a 8 MAg difference at Sorc endgame averages.

No, Odin ends as a 20/20 sorc on ch 24. Nyx spends her promoted life in dark knight and is lucky to scape 20/15 in the last real chapter (26). In a fantasy world where Nyx hits 20/20 (or see's actual use ever) and feels like resetting to sorc fsr she has a small mag lead in that class after her time in DK. As a DK she has less.

Even if she goes sorc the entire game somehow Odin has significantly more bulk in sorc with freaking life-or-death active than a robed and shielded DK Nyx. Let's ignore my endless love for Odin's stupid busted class/support tree combo for a moment though...

She fails to cap mag on average. Just saying. Squeaky toy loli is really bad as a combat unit. Great pairup bot though.

Edited October 5, 2017 by joshcja

[guedesbrawl]

Tell me something, I'm considering to do another CQ!Luna run, but I'm restricting stuff.

Would you say I should take Odin over Nyx if reclassing, mess hall, tonics DLC/Wireless stuff, gen2 and prepromotes are banned?

My experience with Sorc!Odin is... muddy, because my anniversary item was Odin's Grimoire. I ended up with him constantly having 50% chance of OHKO'ing everything he met.

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by guedesbrawl

[joshcja]

44 minutes ago, guedesbrawl said:

Tell me something, I'm considering to do another CQ!Luna run, but I'm restricting stuff.

Would you say I should take Odin over Nyx if reclassing, mess hall, tonics DLC/Wireless stuff and prepromotes are banned?

My experience with Sorc!Odin is... muddy, because my anniversary item was Odin's Grimoire. I ended up with him constantly having 50% chance of OHKO'ing everything he met.

 

Banning reclassing and ignoring dusts Sorc!Odin has a fatter version of DK!Leo's stat spread with nos access.

Basicly magic Benny, but he can ohko on player phase just fine with lightning once you open up 2nd shop. Also enemies actually attack him. So yeah he'll be a workhorse in the run that flat bans Xander.

I'd consider both. Don't get me wrong Nyx is still awful and may be better off as a 10/1 bot even here, but heartseeker/mal aura are so damn strong it's hard to turn down any unit with that sweet sweet utility in this utility starved run you've described.

Edited October 5, 2017 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, guedesbrawl said:

I genuinely forgot the crit evade penalty. But like Josh said, you need to play very badly to ever get done in by crits. (or you are too greedy. I believe Leo and Kaze both can solo-tank the mage room in C26 but can die if the Mjolnir one nets that crit). you forget that Camilla has more def than usual for a zerk, and again, that her LCK problem is easily fixable.

Yeah pair-up is not optimal for someone like Camilla who can solo people and likes attack stance hit bonuses more. But then again, it's a desperation tactic for people traumatized by crits like you. (though i will say some people might boost dodge on attack stance, but i play without battle cutscenes and can't find a database on attack stance bonuses) The risk is not high, at all, as long as your strategy isn't half-assed.

What I mean to say is that Strategist Elise does so much damage that she can ORKO lots of units. But some units have 1-2 weapons and will kill HER on counterstrike. Meaning she cannot attack those units without dual guard, def stack or maybe lightning (i forget how braves affect the flow of battle, but she probably kills with it). Camilla and most zerks, however, have enough bulk to eat a counterattack and kill the enemy without needing to worry. That's all.

I have three words for you: Give. Up. Already. Also, citing someone who talks so much yet says so little isn't helping your case. And I haven't forgotten anything - if anything, YOU'RE the one who's forgotten who he's dealing with. Looking at the stats you yourself posted, it'd take only 38 ATK to threaten to OHKO Camilla with a crit.

It's not about having a good strategy alone - if even good strategies have significant risk attached to them, like would be the case with Berserkers, the problem lies with who they involve.

Yeah, they don't need to worry... if they're attacking a weakling or an enemy using a weapon incapable of critting, that is. Anyway, outside of mages and ninjas, is 1-2 range even common?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

12 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I have three words for you: Give. Up. Already. Also, citing someone who talks so much yet says so little isn't helping your case. And I haven't forgotten anything - if anything, YOU'RE the one who's forgotten who he's dealing with. Looking at the stats you yourself posted, it'd take only 38 ATK to threaten to OHKO Camilla with a crit.

It's not about having a good strategy alone - if even good strategies have significant risk attached to them, like would be the case with Berserkers, the problem lies with who they involve.

Yeah, they don't need to worry... if they're attacking a weakling or an enemy using a weapon incapable of critting, that is. Anyway, outside of mages and ninjas, is 1-2 range even common?

A shit ton of enemy have exclusive 1-2 actually

[joshcja]

It would take 38 atk on base Be!Cam at wtn. At wta they need low 40ish atk. This is a stupidly high value regardless lol, there are a sparse handful of enemies in this game that break 38-44 atk and even fewer do so with displayed crit values on zerks. (Read: No generic has these values when facing S Wta)

At wta+aura's+rally+tonic that jumps up into the 70's, with pairup adds you're in the 80's. No enemy in this game has that damage output. It's not a thing. It does not exist. No.

So a very high atk enemy can low% crit a completely unsupported zerk if you play like a complete moron and leave your zerk unsupported in atk stance with a non-avoid/percy support unit completely unbuffed with a heavy axe. Unit's that hit Wtn, have a +crit hidden, and have atk values high enough to kill are exclusively enemy sniper's and zerks. Ignoring the pants on head retarded of this hypothetical setup... you're leaving a completely unsupported unit in range of the hardest hitting enemies in the game...why? Fuck man, even the big 3 ep blenders use pairup and tonics.

Did... you seriously just ask what relevant enemy in CQ has 1-2 range? It's CQ ffs.

Edited October 6, 2017 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

A shit ton of enemy have exclusive 1-2 actually

So Lunatic makes Hankyus, Maces, Kukris, etc. more common on enemy units? Because most of the units I remember using those tend to be stationary.

On October 4, 2017 at 11:40 AM, joshcja said:

Levant: Elise gets used as a front line unit in any run that uses Elise for reasons other than "is waifu". Provided you kick her out of troub she's straight up no holds barred the most useful unit in the game to have up front.

The problem is, Wyvern Elise is awful until you get to C rank, which means either using two Arms Scrolls or watching her deal next to no damage to pretty much everything. And even then, she's dependent on the Bolt Axe, which costs 3300 gold, and has only 65 base hit. And on top of all this, Elise has awful skill (assuming an immediate reclass, which I wouldn't do, she only has 3 skill to start out). So yeah... I'm not seeing the appeal of Wyvern Elise. At all.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

11 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

So Lunatic makes Hankyus, Maces, Kukris, etc. more common on enemy units? Because most of the units I remember using those tend to be stationary.

The problem is, Wyvern Elise is awful until you get to C rank, which means either using two Arms Scrolls or watching her deal next to no damage to pretty much everything. And even then, she's dependent on the Bolt Axe, which costs 3300 gold, and has only 65 base hit. And on top of all this, Elise has awful skill (assuming an immediate reclass, which I wouldn't do, she only has 3 skill to start out). So yeah... I'm not seeing the appeal of Wyvern Elise. At all.

I remember seeing a tons of them in CH.

Anyway

Elise offensive Specs is 10/11 after Reclass. This become 12/11 when you get a single level.

Since this is actually very easy to argue lets put it this way

 

Niles, at level 1 have 9 STR. He have 17 ATK at base with Iron Bow Niles with 17 ATK at base is infamous in Conquest for being able to ORKO most generic

And Elise ATK is HIGHER

If theres any issue with Wyvern Elise, its definitely not early game offense.

 

 

Conquest ability to allow silly builds is legit ridiculously high. Like theres actually a super easy execution build that allows you to get a character at chapter 14 or so that one shot Camilla with a Bronze Axe

[joshcja]

Forged bronze axe is accurate with Elise's fucknormous luck stat and str+2 with immediate doubling speed gives her better combat than Niles (with flight) after one level up.

Corrin/servant/mozu use fren/waifu/ch9 seals anyways in optimal resource management so the ch7 seal is really really free in not balls hard ltc. (Balls hard ltc runs superfelecia +dracocorrin anyways because early flight is busted as hell.)

You get C axes before second shop.

Heartseeker + skill books + huge luck = accuracy.

If she goes into a combat class late you just use forged fire/thunder and pony tome till 3rd shop/ch21 drops 3 arms scrolls and another bolt axe into the bank while first servant picks up the second shop bolt axe. You still end with double aurabots wielding bolt axes but early wyvern!Elise has better hp/skill/def while still capping mag/res/luck/speed and servant prefers midgame dips over early dips when setting up full aura's so if you're running aurabot Elise you go wyvern early.

Edited October 6, 2017 by joshcja

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Forged Bronze Axe is legit super underrated for casual plays

 

Early game you basically have no proc. It have no downside

+3 Bronze Axe iirc have 12 MT and around 90 ACC

It costs about as much as Silver, but its power is on par with Steel Axe but with +30 ACC, and +3 SPD

Compared to other weapon its as powerful as Silver Sword with no downside

Even if you lowball it, at 2000 gold investment that is used by like every good unit in the game its as powerful as a Steel Lance with none of the downside and better ACC than Iron Lance

 

Its basically the closest Fates have as an answer to FE12 Forged Iron Bow as far as a really amazing cost efficient Forge goes

 

Mind this doesn't make Arthur "good". But its less Arthur being bad and more "X + Arthur is always better than Arthur + X". His pair up bonus is too ridiculous for his own good

[joshcja]

4 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Forged Bronze Axe is legit super underrated for casual plays

 

Early game you basically have no proc. It have no downside

+3 Bronze Axe iirc have 12 MT and around 90 ACC

It costs about as much as Silver, but its power is on par with Steel Axe but with +30 ACC, and +3 SPD

Compared to other weapon its as powerful as Silver Sword with no downside

Even if you lowball it, at 2000 gold investment that is used by like every good unit in the game its as powerful as a Steel Lance with none of the downside and better ACC than Iron Lance

 

Its basically the closest Fates have as an answer to FE12 Forged Iron Bow as far as a really amazing cost efficient Forge goes

 

Mind this doesn't make Arthur "good". But its less Arthur being bad and more "X + Arthur is always better than Arthur + X". His pair up bonus is too ridiculous for his own good

I thought the +3 bronze bow was fates early iron bow? :p

(Early bronze axe forge is still really good)

(Early iron knife/thunder forge is also hero tier)

Edited October 6, 2017 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

 

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

So Lunatic makes Hankyus, Maces, Kukris, etc. more common on enemy units? Because most of the units I remember using those tend to be stationary.

The problem is, Wyvern Elise is awful until you get to C rank, which means either using two Arms Scrolls or watching her deal next to no damage to pretty much everything. And even then, she's dependent on the Bolt Axe, which costs 3300 gold, and has only 65 base hit. And on top of all this, Elise has awful skill (assuming an immediate reclass, which I wouldn't do, she only has 3 skill to start out). So yeah... I'm not seeing the appeal of Wyvern Elise. At all.

I remember seeing a tons of them in CH.

Anyway

Elise offensive Specs is 10/11 after Reclass. This become 12/11 when you get a single level.

Since this is actually very easy to argue lets put it this way

 

Niles, at level 1 have 9 STR. He have 17 ATK at base with Iron Bow Niles with 17 ATK at base is infamous in Conquest for being able to ORKO most generic

And Elise ATK is HIGHER

If theres any issue with Wyvern Elise, its definitely not early game offense.

Well, it does become 10 after a level, but other than that, she's getting nowhere fast, at least not until C rank. Also, losing a healer isn't really ideal, especially early on.

2 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Forged Bronze Axe is legit super underrated for casual plays

 

Early game you basically have no proc. It have no downside

+3 Bronze Axe iirc have 12 MT and around 90 ACC

It costs about as much as Silver, but its power is on par with Steel Axe but with +30 ACC, and +3 SPD

Compared to other weapon its as powerful as Silver Sword with no downside

Even if you lowball it, at 2000 gold investment that is used by like every good unit in the game its as powerful as a Steel Lance with none of the downside and better ACC than Iron Lance

 

Its basically the closest Fates have as an answer to FE12 Forged Iron Bow as far as a really amazing cost efficient Forge goes

 

Mind this doesn't make Arthur "good". But its less Arthur being bad and more "X + Arthur is always better than Arthur + X". His pair up bonus is too ridiculous for his own good

If you ignore the resource problem, that is. Which, incidentally, is why I'm EXTREMELY hesitant to look at forge arguments as anything other than straw-clutching - I don't see much legitimacy in arguments that revolve around a forged weapon that I'm far and away more likely to NOT have access to, especially if I don't have the needed resource at my castle, and thus need to get lucky with interactions with other party members or the lottery.

2 hours ago, joshcja said:

Forged bronze axe is accurate with Elise's fucknormous luck stat and str+2 with immediate doubling speed gives her better combat than Niles (with flight) after one level up.

Corrin/servant/mozu use fren/waifu/ch9 seals anyways in optimal resource management so the ch7 seal is really really free in not balls hard ltc. (Balls hard ltc runs superfelecia +dracocorrin anyways because early flight is busted as hell.)

You get C axes before second shop.

Heartseeker + skill books + huge luck = accuracy.

If she goes into a combat class late you just use forged fire/thunder and pony tome till 3rd shop/ch21 drops 3 arms scrolls and another bolt axe into the bank while first servant picks up the second shop bolt axe. You still end with double aurabots wielding bolt axes but early wyvern!Elise has better hp/skill/def while still capping mag/res/luck/speed and servant prefers midgame dips over early dips when setting up full aura's so if you're running aurabot Elise you go wyvern early.

See above for forge-related arguments. Also, her high luck isn't helping shore up her accuracy as much as you think, with only 1 point of hit every 2 points of luck, and secret books are only good for 3 hit each. Heartseeker is on two units that have issues that might turn me away from using them.

[DragonFlames]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

See above for forge-related arguments. Also, her high luck isn't helping shore up her accuracy as much as you think, with only 1 point of hit every 2 points of luck, and secret books are only good for 3 hit each. Heartseeker is on two units that have issues that might turn me away from using them.

Can confirm that this is true. I played Normal/Casual CQ for funsies the other day and had Elise reclass to Witch. She hit like a truck and nuked people with a standard Fire tome... if she managed to actually hit things. That skill penalty on top of an awful base on top of an awful growth means you're not hitting stuff unless you patch her up with every Skill Book ever + pair up + Horse Spirit + tonics + food (the latter of which is RNG reliant and sometimes, the boosts go to the wrong people... learnt that one the hard way).
And with all those dodge tanks running amok in CQ, well... let's just say using her wasn't as much fun as it should have been.

On the topic of a Berserker Camilla: Swordmasters, Snipers and Spear Masters have built in crit bonuses. Her luck growth and cap sucks. That's all I will say on this matter.

On the topic of Camilla herself: If you train your units well, she'll fall off hard toward the end, especially in the hitting and damage department. Sure, she's fast and can fly, but that doesn't mean squat when everything 2-shots her anyway because her sucky HP renders her as defensive as a wet paper bag and she's too inaccurate to hit back. As far as I'm concerned, not being able to hit stuff is a huge deal breaker. I'll take Beruka, Kinshi!Mozu, Keaton or Selena over Camilla in any form any day of the week. She is good for damage stacking with her personal, I will admit to that much, but her usefulness to me begins and ends there, to be honest.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

On the topic of Camilla herself: If you train your units well, she'll fall off hard toward the end, especially in the hitting and damage department. Sure, she's fast and can fly, but that doesn't mean squat when everything 2-shots her anyway because her sucky HP renders her as defensive as a wet paper bag and she's too inaccurate to hit back. As far as I'm concerned, not being able to hit stuff is a huge deal breaker. I'll take Beruka, Kinshi!Mozu, Keaton or Selena over Camilla in any form any day of the week. She is good for damage stacking with her personal, I will admit to that much, but her usefulness to me begins and ends there, to be honest.

Stop. Average time!

Level 20 Camilla (transitions out of Malig into WL at level 5):

40.1 32.35 10.35 30.15 30 20.5 30.05 19.15

20/20 WR-WL Beruka:

41.5 28.5 3.55 35 23 26 35 15.5

20/20 Wolf Keaton:

57.2 39 0 18 26 18.4 33.4 14

20/20 Merc/Hero Selena:

43.4 28.05 4.45 28.05 34 20.15 28.95 17.2

20/20 Archer/Kinshi Mozu:

33.1 27 6.7 34 32 29.7 23 26.05

 

So is Camilla... inaccurate? Not really, 30 Skl is plenty, axes are a bit inaccurate, but not that much when once we add WTA and weapon rank bonuses. Her HP is comparable with all of the above except against Keaton's, and her extra Speed makes her much better than Beruka, since Beruka is subject to being doubled without help. Her stats are perfectly viable, and it's reasonable she can hit 20/20, whereas everyone else listed, particularly Mozu, will be less likely to max out without late use of child paralogues, 20/15 is more appropriate for comparing them vs. Camilla.

[UNLEASH IT]

Just now, DragonFlames said:

On the topic of Camilla herself: If you train your units well, she'll fall off hard toward the end, especially in the hitting and damage department. Sure, she's fast and can fly, but that doesn't mean squat when everything 2-shots her anyway because her sucky HP renders her as defensive as a wet paper bag and she's too inaccurate to hit back. As far as I'm concerned, not being able to hit stuff is a huge deal breaker. I'll take Beruka, Kinshi!Mozu, Keaton or Selena over Camilla in any form any day of the week. She is good for damage stacking with her personal, I will admit to that much, but her usefulness to me begins and ends there, to be honest.

Was just about to reply to you but the guy above me beat me to it

[joshcja]

5 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Can confirm that this is true. I played Normal/Casual CQ for funsies the other day and had Elise reclass to Witch. She hit like a truck and nuked people with a standard Fire tome... if she managed to actually hit things. That skill penalty on top of an awful base on top of an awful growth means you're not hitting stuff unless you patch her up with every Skill Book ever + pair up + Horse Spirit + tonics + food (the latter of which is RNG reliant and sometimes, the boosts go to the wrong people... learnt that one the hard way).
And with all those dodge tanks running amok in CQ, well... let's just say using her wasn't as much fun as it should have been.

On the topic of a Berserker Camilla: Swordmasters, Snipers and Spear Masters have built in crit bonuses. Her luck growth and cap sucks. That's all I will say on this matter.

On the topic of Camilla herself: If you train your units well, she'll fall off hard toward the end, especially in the hitting and damage department. Sure, she's fast and can fly, but that doesn't mean squat when everything 2-shots her anyway because her sucky HP renders her as defensive as a wet paper bag and she's too inaccurate to hit back. As far as I'm concerned, not being able to hit stuff is a huge deal breaker. I'll take Beruka, Kinshi!Mozu, Keaton or Selena over Camilla in any form any day of the week. She is good for damage stacking with her personal, I will admit to that much, but her usefulness to me begins and ends there, to be honest.

Heartseeker.

WTA.

Supports.

Cam's damage is fine lategame, +12 stack off forged axe/brave axe mt and wl/be bases is strong.

Also Heartseeker.

WTA.

Supports.

A unit has to be wielding lances, low acc gamble, or be named Nxy to have hit issues post second shop.

Pony tome has 70 hit if memory serves, you use it for bulk not accuracy.

Give Peri a chef's hat.

Edited October 7, 2017 by joshcja

[DragonFlames]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Stop. Average time!

Level 20 Camilla (transitions out of Malig into WL at level 5):

40.1 32.35 10.35 30.15 30 20.5 30.05 19.15

20/20 WR-WL Beruka:

41.5 28.5 3.55 35 23 26 35 15.5

20/20 Wolf Keaton:

57.2 39 0 18 26 18.4 33.4 14

20/20 Merc/Hero Selena:

43.4 28.05 4.45 28.05 34 20.15 28.95 17.2

20/20 Archer/Kinshi Mozu:

33.1 27 6.7 34 32 29.7 23 26.05

 

So is Camilla... inaccurate? Not really, 30 Skl is plenty, axes are a bit inaccurate, but not that much when once we add WTA and weapon rank bonuses. Her HP is comparable with all of the above except against Keaton's, and her extra Speed makes her much better than Beruka, since Beruka is subject to being doubled without help. Her stats are perfectly viable, and it's reasonable she can hit 20/20, whereas everyone else listed, particularly Mozu, will be less likely to max out without late use of child paralogues, 20/15 is more appropriate for comparing them vs. Camilla.

I'd love to agree with you and I appreciate the time you took to calculate / look up the average stats for each unit, but for whatever reason, Camilla in my several CQ playthroughs always - ALWAYS - had worse stats than everyone else once they started hitting their promoted classes. It may have something to do with the fact that I don't really like using a pre-promoted unit when I have so many unpromoted ones that can make more use of the EXP, especially when said pre-promote happens to be a character I can't stand (Leo suffers the same problems, pretty much). She gets used as a fail-safe on chapters where I am unsure my strategies are up to the task (10, 12 and 13, mostly and I don't really need her for the latter two anymore), but that's pretty much it, so by the time everyone else promotes and has gained ten or more levels, Camilla has gotten like three levels at most - and even that number is me being generous - with usually pretty crappy stat gains on top of that. The result? All my then promoted units have better stats than her, making her a pair-up bot, carrier or damage stack bot.

Regardless of the argument - whether it's my style of play or Camilla's growth rates belying her actual usefulness -, I have thus learned to never trust average stats.

Also I am unwilling to give her a Heart Seal that can be better spent elsewhere (Odin, Mozu, Laslow, Corrin, any child) because I really don't like her character and characters I don't like always get the shaft in the items department. Also I don't like having story-important people outside of their 'canon' classes (with the exception of Avatar units), but that is neither here nor there.

Last thing to note: Everybody is subject to being doubled by lategame CQ, with the exception of hopefully Corrin and some units so squishy you wouldn't want them near anyone on Enemy Phase anyway (Elise, Azura, Nyx, Kaze, Niles). Even if they aren't, with the density of enemies and the damage they put out, your units will die in two or three hits regardless of what you do, since for whatever reason, IS has decided to give everybody shit for HP growths and those who do have a good HP growth (only Kaze and Charlotte, to my knowledge) are so squishy it won't even matter.

5 hours ago, joshcja said:

Give Peri a chef's hat.

That still doesn't guarantee the people you want get the boosts, though. Also, Chef's Hat is a little hard to come by if you don't have the resources or a lot of luck to find multiple Castles that have them.
Disclaimer: I don't really know what, let alone how much, you need to get the Chef's Hat.

On that note: Has anyone noticed how some resources appear more than others when starting a new game? I have rarely gotten Crystals or Pearls, but for whatever reason, Rubies and Onyxes appear very frequently.

[Harvey]

Camilla is a very solid unit. She may not be that tanky but if you give her Sol, Savage blow, Vengence, Bowbreaker and good fortune, she is practically invincible.

 

[Shadow Mir]

4 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Camilla is a very solid unit. She may not be that tanky but if you give her Sol, Savage blow, Vengence, Bowbreaker and good fortune, she is practically invincible.

 

Yeah... one of those isn't going to be seen until near the end of the game, and at least three of the others are just bad, with two of those even getting in each other's way.