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Making Healers Viable


Rezzy
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The consensus in Heroes is that healers are pretty bad.  Full disclaimer that these changes will probably never happen, since gacha apparently cannot make big changes to game mechanics for reasons, but it can be fun to speculate all the same.

Healers are borderline useless in Arena, and the modes where they actually pull their weight somewhat in Tempest and Chain Challenges, but a Falchion wielder with Renewal and Reciprocal Aid can do their job better and still contribute offensively.

They main drawback with Healers is dealing half damage.  Wrathful Staff fixes this a bit, but is locked behind a 5* unit as well as taking up the B slot.  I find Dancers are superior to Healers, and they do not get the penalty to their damage dealt.  They get a slight BST penalty, but that barely makes a difference.

One fix would actually be making Wrathful Staff more accessible, by letting a 4* by more available for SI fodder.  A more extreme would be more drastic, but I suggest just nixing the half damage mechanic altogether.  Healers already cannot get damaging specials, as well as being restricted from a multitude of other skills.  On top of that, their best (in terms of might) spell only deals 10 damage with no secondary effect.  I've heard people say that not giving healers the half damage buff would let them take on low Res units, but I don't see that as a problem.  Being effective against a small array of units is hardly game breaking where a meta revolves around OHKOing units seldom leaves healers with a job to do anyway.

If the damage nerf was changed, I could see healers getting a BST penalty along the lines of Dancers, which I think is what they should have done in the first place.

 

It will probably never happen, but pulling Lachesis and breaking my pity rate made me ponder on what could have been.

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3 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I know it wouldn't be a full fix, but how does the idea of an "Assault+" staff with super-high Might sound?

Even if they gave them 14 Might, that would still only be about 2 more damage with the half-damage mechanic.

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I think the introduction of staves with more interesting and/or useful support options would help a lot. BrideLyn's Candle + Dazzling Staff combo is an interesting tool for enabling counterless kills (though there are already a lot of ways of subverting such a thing with a unit that can actually kill lol to be fair)...

Something like Silence Staff that disables all attacks for Tomes on a character like Deirdre (who we may or may not be getting soon?) might help as well, but honestly the hole has dug for IS' staff users in this game is pretty deep. Personally, I enjoy using them in modes like Tempest and Chain Challenge, but I totally get where people are coming from when people say they're not very useful, and because of the restrictions that have been set forth on them, I'm not sure there's a whole lot that can be done to recover from it. Because of the short-lived nature of battles in this game, it's kind of hard to see healers having ever had too much of a use TBH. 

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1 minute ago, BANRYU said:

I think the introduction of staves with more interesting and/or useful support options would help a lot. BrideLyn's Candle + Dazzling Staff combo is an interesting tool for enabling counterless kills (though there are already a lot of ways of subverting such a thing with a unit that can actually kill lol to be fair)...

Something like Silence Staff that disables all attacks for Tomes on a character like Deirdre (who we may or may not be getting soon?) might help as well, but honestly the hole has dug for IS' staff users in this game is pretty deep. Personally, I enjoy using them in modes like Tempest and Chain Challenge, but I totally get where people are coming from when people say they're not very useful, and because of the restrictions that have been set forth on them, I'm not sure there's a whole lot that can be done to recover from it. Because of the short-lived nature of battles in this game, it's kind of hard to see healers having ever had too much of a use TBH. 

Silence would be nice, although I can see a stalemate where the healer can't deal any damage and the mage gets silenced over and over.

3 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Who says they have to stop at 14?  Why not as high as 20?

Whoa there, buddy.  I guess that would be one way to fix it, but might be easy to spiral on a unit with Wrathful Staff, making the damage too OP on a unit like Elise.

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8 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Silence would be nice, although I can see a stalemate where the healer can't deal any damage and the mage gets silenced over and over.

Whoa there, buddy.  I guess that would be one way to fix it, but might be easy to spiral on a unit with Wrathful Staff, making the damage too OP on a unit like Elise.

It'd certainly be one way to discourage people from all mages in the arena haha. x3

And y'know, people with their slipslope logical fallacies, what can you do lol

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Move away from Wrathful Staff because its a stupid design for what they are trying to do. lets be real full damage healer would still suck because they don't allow them to have A slot. Trying to make Healer fix from that direction is like trying to use Archers defensively, you literally need CRAZYNUMBERS to make it work since the circumstances around it is so lopsided its not going to work

It fucking says something that Elise is the only Staff offense that is acceptable(100+ Kill score) and to reach the acceptable offensive level she need a stack of Hone Cavalry AND a Goad Cavalry. In this sense, Wrathful Staff is an "ok" skill and should stay as it is as a trap that sometimes give option

Make more Dazzling Staff esque skills or anything that passively improve healing capability. Literally only skill of this kind in the game is fucking Live to Serve or something

Have healing much more potent and better special. Currently their heal value is inconsistent(Rehab) or like 15(Recover).

Special wise, Balm is like holy shit what is this magic where i need to wait 2 turns AND took damage instead of using Hone ATK instantly and it don't even have high value. Its dong. I mean i complained that Dance abilities are too restrictive before, but Balms are on another level.

Another way they can make a good staff is creating "buff staff". FE12 for example have Muscle Staff, and Barrier exists. These kind of staff have a very interesting interaction with FEH CD, and they can even slap CDR.

Honestly I think atm Healers are fine. Brave Ike is such a great design he made Healers work, so unit along those lines with devastating Enemy Phase could be the way to go

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
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A Wrathful staff Seal. I'm just sick of people who think it's okay to slaughter innocent sheep like that.

I'm not bothered so much that Healers are unviable for Arena. I'm comfortable with my weekly arena placements, and most of my units are built with Tempest Trials in mind. Plus the main issue is in how the Arena algorythms score healers, not so much their capabilities. Healers can break the game. Make tanky units better. Make skills that shut off after a HP threshold better.

Really the only reason I want to see them release more Healers is to make the colorless pool more varied. Maybe create some new healing skills that compete with Rehabilitate and Recover. Mist was a wasted opportunity. Dagger units are 80% unsalvageable. And we value archers based on how well they can wield a Brave or Firesweep bow, so they face a similar issue until more great fliers can get released that aren't flying tomes. Elincia is the first of those we've seen.

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...so the thing about healing is that with short missions and no permadeath, there really isn't much of a need for it.

Right now Tempest Trials and Chain-Missions are the only times where you absolutely need to keep your units alive and topped off. (so right there...something you could do to make healers more viable is add more of those kinds of missions)

...aside from that...just for making them better for things like Arena and standard story maps...

Give them some measure of utility besides healing to compensate for their lack of combat skills.

Like make an "anew" stave for dancer utility, or warp/rescue to rapidly move units like Hector and Effie around the map.

Or something like the +3/+3/+3/+3 buff on healing that the new Azura gives when she sings.

That would make for some incredibly useful healers.

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25 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Whoa there, buddy.  I guess that would be one way to fix it, but might be easy to spiral on a unit with Wrathful Staff, making the damage too OP on a unit like Elise.

Well, the strongest weapons in the game right now have 16 Might, but they typically have some kind of extra effect added on as well.  Making a weapon that has more Might than even those but no special effect whatsoever seems fair enough.  Of course, such a powerful weapon would need to be restricted to one or two new units who could learn it naturally, but I did say when I put the idea forward that it wouldn't be a complete fix.

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4 minutes ago, Ciarre said:

I would be so down for warp/rescue on healers. It's probably not that viable, but I can dream.

Rescue is definitely viable if its anything like main series. Reposition is the second strongest skill in the game and its literally just a worse Rescue

The UI disaster is something else though

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
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Rescue is a cool idea; the best way I can think of it being implemented is as basically a 2-range Reposition, since one 2-range staff currently exists in the form of Physic, which means that the concept of a ranged assist is at least viable with the UI. 

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It would probably be a better design choice for the healers to specialize in being support units as in make them the best at providing both heals and buffs. Right now, they're mainly fine in modes like Chain Challenges and Tempest Trials but the issue is that ever since the release of skill inheritance, players have found reliable and versatile substitutes over dedicated staff units.

Problem units:

-Falchion users (especially with Reciprocal Aid and Renewal 3)

-Linde, PA Olivia, PA Inigo, PA Shigure (especially with Breath of Life 3 and Breath of Life 1 seal)

-Buff bots (looking at the Renais twins)

-Dancers (especially PA Azura because of her Urdr weapon, and PA Olivia, PA Inigo, and PA Shigure as listed above)

 

In addition, there's also the game promoting a ORKO meta, hence the multitude of glass cannon builds (such as units that use Life and Death 3 in conjunction with Desperation 3 and similar builds).

 

Possible solutions:

-Give staff units access to the Again assist; heal some limited amount of HP (looking at 5-10) and allow a unit that has already made an action to make another action. This can make colorless hell potentially more bearable as it can allow staff units to have potential to act like dancers with skill inheritance (the main caveats are that colorless units cannot achieve WTA at all (and therefore cannot learn TA3), staff units deal halved damage without Wrathful Staff 3, and RNG potentially not being in the player's favor, especially if the unit with base Again assist is a 5-star exclusive).

-Give staff units HUGE buff skills that are exclusive to staff units. If troubadours have the ability to learn cavalry buff skills, why not allow the infantry staff units to learn exclusive and better C-slot support skills that can rival (if not be superior to) (movement) Emblem buffs (and have the buff effects affect ONLY infantry units)?

-As seen in other suggestions, implementing Warp and Rescue assists.

-Introduce the Freeze and Entrap staves. Freeze can be like the more expensive and rare version of Gravity (by shutting down target's movement to 0 (aka. cannot move at all without repositioning assists from other units and may or may not be bypassed by Escape Route or Wings of Mercy) for the turn). Entrap staff can force an enemy unit over to the staff user after combat so that the staff user's allies can take out a potentially troublesome unit.

-Introduce more staff-exclusive specials that are direct upgrades of existing staff-exclusive specials. Heck, why not introduce a staff-exclusive special that boosts the movement of the user and its allies for 1 turn (like the Infantry Boots item in Arena Assault)?

-Taking notes from games like Team Fortress 2, why not allow staff units to have the ability to "overheal" (as in heal their allies to above the listed HP caps)? This more directly benefit tank units but may also benefit glass cannon units as well.

-Cooldown reduction specials/passives similar to Infantry Pulse but exclusive to staff units.

-Introduce the Amaterasu skill from Fire Emblem Fates and make it exclusive to staff users.

Since the game is pretty much in a ORKO meta, why not allow healers to be like dancers in more directly enabling ORKOs?

Edited by Roflolxp54
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1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

Being effective against a small array of units is hardly game breaking where a meta revolves around OHKOing units seldom leaves healers with a job to do anyway.

And that's basically the problem right there. The mere fact that they are restricted to something as trivial as doing half damage means they didn't expect the game to head this direction. They weren't thinking along the lines of "meta". They were thinking healers contribute in the way that they've always done, which giave them their unique edge in traditional FE. Utility isn't the problem, but the direction the meta has headed is. The creators had actual strategy in mind, beyond maximizing the ability to kill everything quickly (which is why it's basically narrowing down to Brave everything). Healers work just fine at what they're useful for, and the problem is the player base needs to open up their minds beyond expecting characters to 1RKO everything as quickly as possible as "meta". I mean, that works just about right in the Arena, but it isn't actually the only game mode. I also hardly consider having to take up an action on somewhat unique fighter (since Chrom's the only Falchion wielder that isn't *5-exclusive and that would narrow down to simply always having one of those in the team) better than actually having someone dedicated to that when other characters could be re-enabled to keep fighting and not have to worry about that.

It's also worth mentioning healers do more than just heal: Balms. People always overlook these. This is literally a 1-turn cooldown special that basically throws an Hone/Rally at the whole team while re-enabling people to do their thing (which also means more for skills like QR & Breakers).

 

Edited by Soul~!
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I think Dagger users have it just as bad, given how Daggers have low might, Dagger users generally below average attack (we're talking 32 with a benefitial nature) and how the "best" Dagger and the best "Dagger user" have their niche being "targeting Infantry units", which used to be what kept them in S+ in the old days of the Wiki Tier List. They're pretty much meant to WEAKEN enemy units with no alternative. At least Staff users support their teammates by keeping them alive, which...well it can let someone trigger Quick Riposte more than once or twice per match.

Edited by Xenomata
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I actually find healers super useful in AA because now the enemy is more tanky and you don't always have the best units to orko. Their problems are the pathetic bst and skills which make them not exactly great for arena score. Would be great if they could get a high might staff first. 

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4 hours ago, Soul~! said:

 I also hardly consider having to take up an action on somewhat unique fighter (since Chrom's the only Falchion wielder that isn't *5-exclusive and that would narrow down to simply always having one of those in the team) better than actually having someone dedicated to that when other characters could be re-enabled to keep fighting and not have to worry about that.

 

'Marth' and Marth are also commonly used with Falchion, reciprocal aid and renewal three, one of them being a  tempest trial reward and the other a 4* summon.

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I'm in the minority that think staff users are useful. It's so nice that I can outlast people that are stronger than me, thanks to having a healer.

I also have a 5 star Genny with physic, so I can keep my healer out of danger but still heal up my shield.

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6 hours ago, BANRYU said:

I think the introduction of staves with more interesting and/or useful support options would help a lot. BrideLyn's Candle + Dazzling Staff combo is an interesting tool for enabling counterless kills (though there are already a lot of ways of subverting such a thing with a unit that can actually kill lol to be fair)...

Something like Silence Staff that disables all attacks for Tomes on a character like Deirdre (who we may or may not be getting soon?) might help as well, but honestly the hole has dug for IS' staff users in this game is pretty deep. Personally, I enjoy using them in modes like Tempest and Chain Challenge, but I totally get where people are coming from when people say they're not very useful, and because of the restrictions that have been set forth on them, I'm not sure there's a whole lot that can be done to recover from it. Because of the short-lived nature of battles in this game, it's kind of hard to see healers having ever had too much of a use TBH. 

This pretty much, my Arena Team runs B!Ike Nohr!Azura Sonya and Azura (all +10 ecxept for Sonya). My Azama runs Bride Lyns Candle + Dazzligh Staff combo, and even tough my Team consists of purely Green units, Azamas Staff allows me to kill units i usually wouldnt by preventing them from countering. However this only works because B!Ike is such a Monster with Urvan +Bonfire+ Distant Counter coupled with a Healer behind him that can heal him from low HP instantly to full (Rehabilitate) and can make up for the lack of attack power from Azama on Enemy phase. This wouldnt work with any other Tank unit because they all take too much dmg most of the time and cant kill on counter.
I have built Azama of course to optimize his Utility: He runs the Panic Ploy Seal due to haveing high HP, he has a +DEF -ATK nature makeing a great path blocker against physical units (not all mind you) due to his high DEF stat in general.
However in any other Team this wouldnt be enough, this only works because of B!Ike and his Urvan allowing him to Survive almost anything and makeing a Healer there viable.
With the recent Dancers added even the Healing part on healers isnt that great... I mean a Festival Dancer can heal for 18 Hp.. 21 HP if you upgrade the Breath of Life Seal to max while attacking. A healer ant even heal for that much with a normal assist they have lol unless they activate a special or run Rehabilitate. Healers definitly need better utility as a buffer with exclusiv skills that are as valuable as a Dancers.

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Going to agree with more interesting uses for staves. Aside from Silence, the other annoying main game debuffs like sleep and berserk or movement assists like Rescue, Warp and Anew could be introduced too (don't ask me how to balance them). Also, because healers can't use large part of the standard skills, they really should get more healer-specific skills (that are more easily accessible than on a single 5* exclusive unit). Or just make more of the standard skills inheritable by them.

7 hours ago, Rezzy said:

 Full disclaimer that these changes will probably never happen, since gacha apparently cannot make big changes to game mechanics for reasons, but it can be fun to speculate all the same.

For the record, this is totally a myth, there's nothing actually stopping companies from changing their gacha game mechanics aside from willingness (or almost nothing, one stupidly specific form of gacha is banned). And buffs happen all the time. Core mechanic changes or nerfs I admit are really rare, but that's mostly due to resource costs for the former and fear of negative backlash from the paying customers for the latter.

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Another possible thing to consider: since special cooldown is pretty important, why not give staff users a staff/staff-exclusive special/staff-exclusive passive that provides allies special cooldown charges in addition to heals? This can make tanking specials (namely Sacred Cowl, Escutcheon, Aegis, and Pavise) more viable, especially for tank units, or make specials that have longer cooldowns (specially AoE ones, Galeforce, and Aether) easier to perform with less of a need for a seal or a (usually inherited) A-passive.

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The first account I played I got a 5* Elise, she was my 3rd 5* unit and I was amazed about how lucky I was.

That was until I realized how useless healers are.

I think they were introduced for the sake of being there (as they are in the main games) or to create colorless hell on purpose :).

The problem with FEH and healers is that teams consist of just 4 units - larger teams and larger maps might be required to give healers a purpose. 

Healers are good for levelling up units (alongside two dancers)

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