Making Healers Viable

[Dark Holy Elf]

I do think healers are a bit underrated (they're not as bad as knife-users, that's for sure) but the current design isn't very friendly to them. I think a lot of it comes down to a lack of 5* weapons, which in particular is what makes them disappointing to draw as 5* (a 5* healer isn't that much better than a 4*). Make an Assault+ with 18 power, Slow+ and Fear+ with a power boost and a stat drop of 10, etc. It's a small thing but would help with perception of them quite a bit, and make some other builds (like Wrathful Staff) more viable.

[Roflolxp54]

Welp, with the Breath of Life seal now upgradable, any staff unit not using Rehabilitate or Physic has lost its niche as a healer even more than before if the player has summoned and built Linde or any Performing Arts unit not named Azura as a combat medic.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Roflolxp54

[Ice Dragon]

Making Wrathful Staff more accessible doesn't help.

Elise and possibly Priscilla are still going to be the only staff users that have any offensive presence in any level-40+ content. The problem is not that Wrathful Staff is hard to come by, it's the fact that all other staff users even with Wrathful Staff have little to no offensive presence, meaning they are relegated to healing and support. Unfortunately, healing is a role that can already be performed by other units through Reciprocal Aid, and support is unnecessary when you could have simply killed the enemy instead with buffs that any unit can provide.

Furthermore, maps in Heroes are typically four against four or five. In these maps, healing and support are simply inferior choices to having another offensive unit. Because you aren't outnumbered, you can typically have each unit only fight one or two rounds of combat without the need for healing in between or afterwards.

What needs to happen to make staff users more relevant is making staff users have better offensive or support options. Staff users need significantly more powerful support options or access to offensive skills to actually earn a position on a team. In terms of support options, I'm thinking things like a Silence weapon (opponent tome or staff user is prevented from attacking or counterattacking until the end of its next action, preferably 3 range) or boosted staff-exclusive Drive skills (+25% of this unit's Spd, Def, or Res for all allies within 2 squares).

 

6 minutes ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Welp, with the Breath of Life seal now upgradable, any staff unit not using Rehabilitate or Physic has lost its niche as a healer even more than before if the player has summoned and built Linde or any Performing Arts unit not named Azura as a combat medic.

Needing to attack to trigger your heal is horrendously inconvenient and oftentimes impossible without getting yourself killed.

[Roflolxp54]

Another solution is to introduce staves that are direct upgrades of existing staves. Like Panic staff can be upgraded into a staff that causes Panic as an AoE to the target’s nearby allies (like Veronica’s tome) in addition to putting Panic status on the target.

 As for buffs (can be displayed buffs or in-combat buffs though for the case of the latter, they preferably should be AoE ones like Drive skills), staff units need powerful buffs that only they alone can access and apply; I’m talking about buffs of +8 for 1-2 stats in a single skill or even as big as +12 for 1-2 stats in a single skill.

 For overhealing, the staff unit could heal above the target’s max HP cap to a certain point (like up to 50% above the HP cap so that a unit with an HP of 40 can be overhealed to 60/40) which can be a huge boon for users of Quick Riposte, Hardy Bearing, Weaponbreaker, Fury, etc. The overheal can also be pretty strong on units like Celica and Lloyd because of their unique weapons.

 Does any of that seem overpowered? Maybe, but they do give staff users a defined role as support units (the best at it) given their limited combat potential. Sure, non-staff units could do what staff units already do but the point is to make staff units the best at support roles.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Roflolxp54

[Hilda]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Making Wrathful Staff more accessible doesn't help.

Elise and possibly Priscilla are still going to be the only staff users that have any offensive presence in any level-40+ content. The problem is not that Wrathful Staff is hard to come by, it's the fact that all other staff users even with Wrathful Staff have little to no offensive presence, meaning they are relegated to healing and support. Unfortunately, healing is a role that can already be performed by other units through Reciprocal Aid, and support is unnecessary when you could have simply killed the enemy instead with buffs that any unit can provide.

Furthermore, maps in Heroes are typically four against four or five. In these maps, healing and support are simply inferior choices to having another offensive unit. Because you aren't outnumbered, you can typically have each unit only fight one or two rounds of combat without the need for healing in between or afterwards.

What needs to happen to make staff users more relevant is making staff users have better offensive or support options. Staff users need significantly more powerful support options or access to offensive skills to actually earn a position on a team. In terms of support options, I'm thinking things like a Silence weapon (opponent tome or staff user is prevented from attacking or counterattacking until the end of its next action, preferably 3 range) or boosted staff-exclusive Drive skills (+25% of this unit's Spd, Def, or Res for all allies within 2 squares).

 

Needing to attack to trigger your heal is horrendously inconvenient and oftentimes impossible without getting yourself killed.

Since the healers A Slot is basicly/mostly (ecxept for Fortress Defense on Azama since his attack is so low even more -Attack wont matter) i would opt to add healer exclusiv A Slot support skills like:
- Defensiv Aura 1-3 (this lets healers also use heals on units that are at full HP):
[1] When healing an ally, a Glowing Defense tile is built below the ally granting 20% Def and 20% Res for the next turn
[2] When healing an ally, a Glowing Defense tile is built below the ally and unit granting both 20%Def and 20%Res for the next turn
[3] When healing an ally, a Glowing Defense tile is built below the ally and unit granting both +30%Def and +30% Res for the next turn

- Virtue of Courage 1-3 (can only be used on units that have taken damage allready, you need to heal them)
[1] When healing an ally, their Special Charge timer is reduced by 1
[2] When healing an ally, their Special Charge timer is reduced by 1 and they are granted +5 Damage on Special attacks on the next turn
[3] When healing an ally, their Special Charge timer is reduced by 1 and they are granted +10 Damage on Special attacks on the next turn

An Urvan Style defense buff that lasts for 1 Turn when healing the unit.

A Offense buff that grants the unit Distant Counter for 1 Turn when healing the unit (and ignores Saccaes blessing and Windsweep)

A Offense buff that grants the unit Close Counter for 1 Turn when healing the unit (that ignores Watersweep).

etc.
There is alot of options to make Healers just as desirable as Dancers

Also more exclusiv more potent Infantery/Armored unit only buffs. Basicly the Infantery Emblem buffs for the C Slot
a Silence Ploy in Cardinal Directions against tome and staff users (based on RES check)
a no Counter Ploy in Cardinal Directions based on HP check

Couple this with new Staffs that have above effects built in is a Stage 2 and you are set to go.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Hilda

[Skirt_chaser]

19 hours ago, Roflolxp54 said:

Since the game is pretty much in a ORKO meta, why not allow healers to be like dancers in more directly enabling ORKOs?

We should fix ORKO meta, not encourage it. Healers and daggers never will be viable if it never stops. 

[Hilda]

12 minutes ago, Skirt_chaser said:

We should fix ORKO meta, not encourage it. Healers and daggers never will be viable if it never stops. 

you cant fix the ORKO meta unless you give everyone and his mother an Urvan like weapon coupled with Beorcs blessing. If you wanted the ORKO meta gone you would need to throw alot of Skills out the window (Emblem, Litrblades, Dire Thunders, Brave Weapons) or introduce very powerfull defense skills. Hell the fact that the SPD stat works as an offensiv AND Defensiv stat allready tells you that the Defensiv gameplay in FEH is irked to hell (hey you got very low SPD? ===> welcome to the club of takeing double dmg and dealing only half dmg...)

[Junkhead]

17 hours ago, Raptok said:

'Marth' and Marth are also commonly used with Falchion, reciprocal aid and renewal three, one of them being a  tempest trial reward and the other a 4* summon.

And that just goes with what I was saying, that it basically forces you to have one of them as a so-called "healer". The only thing I think justifies not fielding them is that they may potentially be replaced with a dancer.

[BANRYU]

Now, I have to preface this by saying that I think Recover was tied with Rehab for the best healing staff, since with Imbue or Heavenly Light it can get a LOT of HP recovery very quickly without needing the infirm ally to be on their last legs; really I'd say it's down to preference, but...

Yeah, WAS tied with Rehab. Now we have Breath of Life 3+3 that gets you 14 HP recovery AND lets you attack IN THE SAME TURN, compared to staffers who can do only 1 HP more than (that barring specials), but still can't kill jack shit even with WrathStaff (having pulled a Genny, she still does not feel like much of an attack unit for anything but emergency situations where an enemy needs a not-huge chunk of health polished off or something)... Rehab still has its uses, but when you can get 14 HP recovered to adjacent allies with every Attack-- and a ridiculous 21 if you're running the PA weapons over others for any reason-- it's hard to see the point of even Rehab. In ideal (not remotely frequent, ofc) conditions, PA Olivia can heal a total 63 HP in one turn WHILE attacking someone. It's unlikely that the stars would ever align for that scenario to happen, but all the same, it's pretty absurd in its potential.

Sad to say I think the added features with Sacred Coins + Seals is the final nail in the coffin for any widespread utility of staffers. 

The only thing keeping healers relevant right now is the fact that the BoL Seal is less of a priority than stuff like Distant Defense and Spurs, but after folks have enough time to accrue coins, I'm not sure why healers would be needed for much besides maybe providing backup healing in Chain Challenges or TT for teams that can afford to run only 3 attackers (which, admittedly, is my usual setup for those modes, but if I get PA Olivia..... well then). 

Edited October 10, 2017 by BANRYU

[Hilda]

9 hours ago, Skirt_chaser said:

We should fix ORKO meta, not encourage it. Healers and daggers never will be viable if it never stops. 

on the matter of Dagger users: A way to make them maybe slightly better would be for their debuffs to not wear off... like at all unless the units gets healed by a Healer! And for their (and only Dagger users) Debuffs to not be overrideable by normal buffs.
They could add a new Poison debuff that chips away each round 6 damage and wont wear off unless a healer heals the unit
A non counter debuff that wont wear off unless the unit gets healed
A fatigue debuff that starts at -3 debuff on all stats and doubles up on each round unless the unit gets healed (-3 on all stats on 1. turn, -6 on all stats on 2. turn etc.)
a Movement Ploy C-slot debuff that checks speed and limits the oponents movement range to 1.
Endless possibilitys.

[Interdimensional Observer]

On 10/9/2017 at 12:31 AM, Xenomata said:

I think Dagger users have it just as bad, given how Daggers have low might, Dagger users generally below average attack (we're talking 32 with a benefitial nature) and how the "best" Dagger and the best "Dagger user" have their niche being "targeting Infantry units", which used to be what kept them in S+ in the old days of the Wiki Tier List. They're pretty much meant to WEAKEN enemy units with no alternative. At least Staff users support their teammates by keeping them alive, which...well it can let someone trigger Quick Riposte more than once or twice per match.

It doesn't help that buffs and Panic are generally preferred over debuffs, right? How to fix this? Maybe a Dagger-user exclusive skill (programming that might not be easy) that reduces Atk but increases non-Panic debuff numbers by a certain amount?

Maybe a skill anyone can use that causes them when fighting a foe, to fight them with any debuff they may have being larger than they are outside of combat (so a -3 outside of battle, becomes a -6 in battle, but only for the unit with the skill). Or a weapon that serves as a "Debuff -Blade (add up all the debuffs on the foe to unit's Atk".

 

Colorless as a whole seems to be built around ideas of utility over offense-:support, debuff, and anti-flier, with Bows being standard offense with the utility more its side bonus. It's a matter of expanding the unique utility which they can provide. I'd love the idea of shutdown team being big on binds and ailments as I am in Etrian Odyssey. But to do this, standard weapon types can't be allowed in on it. They have to settle with having their nuclear offense counterbalanced by utility restrictions.

[Ice Dragon]

19 hours ago, Hilda said:

(hey you got very low SPD? ===> welcome to the club of takeing double dmg and dealing only half dmg...)

Taking double damage doesn't matter if you take zero damage, and that's what Quick Riposte is for. Everything else that's slow has Brave weapons, Weaponbreakers, Triangle Adept, and whatnot.

 

12 hours ago, BANRYU said:

Now we have Breath of Life 3+3 that gets you 14 HP recovery AND lets you attack IN THE SAME TURN, compared to staffers who can do only 1 HP more than (that barring specials),

I've previously said earlier that needing to attack to trigger the healing can be incredibly inconvenient because it requires (1) an enemy to attack in the first place, (2) your healing target to be standing next to the square you are attacking from, and (3) your attacker to be in an advantageous match-up. Being able to heal and attack with a single action sounds great when you word it that way, but it's less impressive when you realize you cannot heal unless you also attack.

Giving up a turn to use a healing assist is far more convenient than using Breath of Life for healing, not to mention Breath of Life also comes at the cost of losing a buff skill in the C slot.

 

12 hours ago, BANRYU said:

but still can't kill jack shit even with WrathStaff (having pulled a Genny, she still does not feel like much of an attack unit for anything but emergency situations where an enemy needs a not-huge chunk of health polished off or something)

Genny is not Elise, and Elise is arguably the only good user of Wrathful Staff (Priscilla is borderline).

Elise can one-round kill every slow, low-Res opponent in Tempest Trials with Hone Cavalry up, which is good enough to earn a slot in every single Tempest Trials team I field.

The problem with Genny is that she's slow, Wrathful Staff prevents her from using a Weaponbreaker or Quick Riposte, and being colorless means she can't use the weapon triangle to reliably tank with her good Res stat.

[eclipse]

Dunno about you guys, but it's damn satisfying to have Azama choke a point.

IMO some of the skill restrictions that healers have is really stupid.  Why NOT give them access to Seal skills?  -5 Atk/Spd and -1 movement is great for hindering an opponent.  Likewise, Pain + Poison Strike + Savage Blow turns them into the ultimate chip units.  Let the creativity flow~!

[BANRYU]

33 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I've previously said earlier that needing to attack to trigger the healing can be incredibly inconvenient because it requires (1) an enemy to attack in the first place, (2) your healing target to be standing next to the square you are attacking from, and (3) your attacker to be in an advantageous match-up. Being able to heal and attack with a single action sounds great when you word it that way, but it's less impressive when you realize you cannot heal unless you also attack.

Giving up a turn to use a healing assist is far more convenient than using Breath of Life for healing, not to mention Breath of Life also comes at the cost of losing a buff skill in the C slot.

That is certainly true, though in the same vein that many folks would argue for running a Falchion healer in place of a staffer, likewise such units can simply toss BoL 6 onto their build for additional healing utility on top of RecipAid/ArdSac, which just offers further argument against running a healer at all. 

But it's true, and I will concede the point that having to attack in order to heal is not always easy to put into practice. And for what it's worth, I personally prefer to run a healer for CC/TT over my Medic Alm the vast majority of the time, and might still even with the extra BoL access, but the point is more that this game continues to give players ways to heal without the units SOLELY DEDICATED to that, and doesn't give those units enough options to either do their job better or branch out and have additional utility. Not well enough IMO, anyway. 

37 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Genny is not Elise, and Elise is arguably the only good user of Wrathful Staff (Priscilla is borderline).

Elise can one-round kill every slow, low-Res opponent in Tempest Trials with Hone Cavalry up, which is good enough to earn a slot in every single Tempest Trials team I field.

The problem with Genny is that she's slow, Wrathful Staff prevents her from using a Weaponbreaker or Quick Riposte, and being colorless means she can't use the weapon triangle to reliably tank with her good Res stat.

It's true, and I realize that Genny is very slow and that hurts her offensive potential a lot, I was more trying to make the point that Wrathful Staff isn't particularly super useful on the majority of healers, largely for the reasons you cite as well.