Why does everyone think Takumi is so great?

[Alastor15243]

This continues to puzzle me. I've constantly heard people say that Takumi is a top-tier unit, and tons of people say he's better than Leo, and this just makes no sense to me. Leo has 1-2 range and great all-around growths (and even passable bases when he starts) and thus is one of the only units, alongside the avatar, Xander, dread fighters and a sufficiently babied Odin, who can do no-strings-attached 1-2 range combat without being extremely fragile, which is essential for clearing out enemies on the enemy phase. Takumi, meanwhile, is basically locked to player phase combat, and while the game took great pains to make archers more powerful, he still suffers the inevitable downside to being a player-phase unit: he gets several times less experience than other units who can fight multiple enemies a turn on the enemy phase, and this, combined with his mediocre speed, means that unless you really baby him he really falls off in the late game.

Why does Leo have such a bad reputation, and why does Takumi have such a good one?

Edited October 10, 2017 by Alastor15243

[May]

I can't really say...

I just didn't use him because I didn't think he was special. I didn't gravitate towards Takumi because I didn't like his resistance (or I just didn't like him in general, lol).  He was very fragile, so I tended to use Hinata and Oboro. If the retainers are blessed from RNG, they will outperform the Royal family. Hana and Ryoma were the same level, Hana's speed and attack were significantly higher than Ryoma's.

Leo was great for me, especially the Wind Tribe chapter because he wouldn't get doubled because he had marginal speed. Not only that, he had good defense and resistance. The only siblings I used in Revelations was Elise and Leo. 

 

[Shadow Mir]

Frankly, the only thing I can think of is that people love to overhype the hell out of archers and myrmidons.

[Shoblongoo]

He's great compared to other archers in the series and what archers typically bring to the table. An excellent personal skill + high-stat custom bow + the ability to ignore movement penalties on terrain as though he were a flier (without suffering flying weaknesses or losing the ability to abuse terrain bonuses) all help distinguish him from the pack.

Excluding Echoes and Gaiden---where archers are off in their own busted universe of Hunter's Volleys and 5-range attacks and don't really behave the way archers in any other fire emblem game behave--I'm trying to think of an archer thats out-right better then Takumi.

The only one that comes to mind as clearly better then Takumi is FE10 Shinon. (I don't think I'm breaking any new ground here when I say that archer curse notwithstanding, FE10 Shinon is an outrageously good unit)

Edited October 10, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[Shadow Mir]

15 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

He's great compared to other archers in the series and what archers typically bring to the table. An excellent personal skill + high-stat custom bow + the ability to ignore movement penalties on terrain as though he were a flier (without suffering flying weaknesses or losing the ability to abuse terrain bonuses) all help distinguish him from the pack.

Excluding Echoes and Gaiden---where archers are off in their own busted universe of Hunter's Volleys and 5-range attacks and don't really behave the way archers in any other fire emblem game behave--I'm trying to think of an archer thats out-right better then Takumi.

The only one that comes to mind as clearly better then Takumi is FE10 Shinon. (I don't think I'm breaking any new ground here when I say that archer curse notwithstanding, FE10 Shinon is an outrageously good unit)

Bold: I'm not really seeing his personal skill as much of a factor, at least in Birthright, where almost no one is going to have outleveled him before he comes along.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Bold: I'm not really seeing his personal skill as much of a factor, at least in Birthright, where almost no one is going to have outleveled him before he comes along.

To be fair, that is one of the ways that his reduced opportunities for experience works in his favor.

[Shadow Mir]

8 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

To be fair, that is one of the ways that his reduced opportunities for experience works in his favor.

But at the same time, with two maps where he has good matchups against most of the enemy units (his join chapter, and the one after that) to start out, it might take a while before other units start to surpass him. Level-wise.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

But at the same time, with two maps where he has good matchups against most of the enemy units (his join chapter, and the one after that) to start out, it might take a while before other units start to surpass him.

But they don't need to surpass him, they just need to be as good. Competitive works with equal or greater level than him, not just greater than.

I agree Takumi's underwhelming obviously, but I don't think his skill is one of the reasons why. It's pretty much the best skill a unit in his situation could ask for.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Takumi is only above average at best I think. His Archer competition on BR and Rev. is handicapped by low starting levels and stats, barring Rev. Shura. Takumi has a good start, coming right before or during the Mokushu chapter on both routes means auto-contribution making, with the powerful Fujin Yumi and his bases. 

But in the long run, Mozu and even Setsuna will outdo him (get them Silvers- and no, they aren't bad at all on bow units), and so will a Kiragi with a good mother. Or Apo!Azama, and Reina can last you pretty much until the end too. A reclassed Hana or Kagero (which can't happen without Takumi's sweet embrace), would outshine him too once they get the weapon rank up.

Takumi's ease of use is key to his viability- he's only a little above average in Spd at best, about the same in Str, and his Skill is overkill and HP is not needed by a bow user. Make Takumi anything but a Sniper/Kinshi Knight, and you'll see how bland and not really special he actually is; unlike Azama and Hinoka who shine more once they escape their base classes.

Is Takumi better than Leo? Leo is on a harder route, has a horse, and contributes a more meaningful (Res targeting vs. anti-fliers) offense utility. Leo like Takumi shares in weak competition barring a well-mothered kid (Ophelia in his case). Both of these royals are the worse in their family (the big sisters have growths and good classes, the brothers have good classes and personal superweapons, the little sisters are healbots with good personals skills and nice stats), and both should stick to the player phase (but Leo can go enemy phasing too under the right conditions). Yet even so, the little brothers aren't lacking and are still in the upper half on any tier list. I'd say Leo > Takumi overall though.

[Shadow Mir]

36 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

But they don't need to surpass him, they just need to be as good. Competitive works with equal or greater level than him, not just greater than.

I agree Takumi's underwhelming obviously, but I don't think his skill is one of the reasons why. It's pretty much the best skill a unit in his situation could ask for.

True, but still, with most Hoshidan units not being able to take many hits, it might be a while before you can have it active without needing to be selective in who he's partnered with.

[DragonFlames]

Wow, I fully expected to see the OP getting flamed to hell and back for 'daring' to even THINK about criticising the great, godlike Takumi, sue-st of all Mary Sues. (writing that almost made me throw up, just now)
My hope in humanity remains yet intact.

All jokes and personal happiness of once again finding out that I am not alone with a somewhat unpopular opinion (that being Takumi being generally underwhelming) aside, I have to agree with the OP and seemingly everyone else who replied until now. The one thing that makes Takumi "good" is his Fujin Yumi. That's literally all there is to him. Give him any other bow and his lack of Strength and Speed will screw him over sooner rather than later.
It's honestly ridiculous how some people think he can solo Birthright if he has Point Blank, especially considering that a certain someone packs Bow Breaker on the harder modes, not to mention the hoops you have to jump through to get it... you know, with Point Blank being hidden behind a pay-wall and all.

Let me just say this: I played both Birthright and Revelations multiple times by now and I have never found myself thinking: Man, if only Takumi was here. I got by with Mozu, promoted Sakura, promoted Mitama, Midori and / or Setsuna just fine without needing a walking, talking, derpy pineapple.
The same goes for Ryoma, by the way.
I normally hate the word 'overrated', I really do, but I think in Ryoma's and Takumi's cases, it's appropriate to call them that.

[ChaoticHoundoom]

It's mostly the Fujin Yumi and not Takumi. It's a decent bow so I think it tends to go the way of "Oh we have a guy with a good bow that's just for him. Why use anyone else?" more than anything else.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

Wow, I fully expected to see the OP getting flamed to hell and back for 'daring' to even THINK about criticising the great, godlike Takumi, sue-st of all Mary Sues. (writing that almost made me throw up, just now)
My hope in humanity remains yet intact.

All jokes and personal happiness of once again finding out that I am not alone with a somewhat unpopular opinion (that being Takumi being generally underwhelming) aside, I have to agree with the OP and seemingly everyone else who replied until now. The one thing that makes Takumi "good" is his Fujin Yumi. That's literally all there is to him. Give him any other bow and his lack of Strength and Speed will screw him over sooner rather than later.
It's honestly ridiculous how some people think he can solo Birthright if he has Point Blank, especially considering that a certain someone packs Bow Breaker on the harder modes, not to mention the hoops you have to jump through to get it... you know, with Point Blank being hidden behind a pay-wall and all.

Let me just say this: I played both Birthright and Revelations multiple times by now and I have never found myself thinking: Man, if only Takumi was here. I got by with Mozu, promoted Sakura, promoted Mitama, Midori and / or Setsuna just fine without needing a walking, talking, derpy pineapple.
The same goes for Ryoma, by the way.
I normally hate the word 'overrated', I really do, but I think in Ryoma's and Takumi's cases, it's appropriate to call them that.

 

Ryoma is actually busted. He's actually close to underrated if anything(because some people argued he's not that good because Saizo can be Ryoma). Saizo is good, but Ryoma is like

Heres how you make broken character in Fates

 

Step 1: Make it a Swordmaster

 

Step 2: Give it 1-2 Range weapon

 

 

No shit, Ryoma starts with both

Edited October 10, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[wissenschaft]

The real power of Ryoma is vantage + high crit rate + Astra allowing him to obliterate multiple opponents in the enemy phase as long as his luck holds out. Personally, I prefer to use a tank that just softens the enemy so I can feed kills to my other units. That said, Ryoma is still worth using. Even if Hana can end up with more str and speed, Ryoma has 1-2 ranged which is a big advantage.

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

 

Ryoma is actually busted. He's actually close to underrated if anything(because some people argued he's not that good because Saizo can be Ryoma). Saizo is good, but Ryoma is like

Heres how you make broken character in Fates

 

Step 1: Make it a Swordmaster

 

Step 2: Give it 1-2 Range weapon

 

 

No shit, Ryoma starts with both

Ryoma in the same sentence as underrated... Ha. Wishful thinking. That isn't something I can buy into when everyone and their horse treats him as a god of war. And I fail to see what being a Swordmaster has to do with anything when Swordmaster honestly feels like a lackluster class in Fates.

2 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

The real power of Ryoma is vantage + high crit rate + Astra allowing him to obliterate multiple opponents in the enemy phase as long as his luck holds out. Personally, I prefer to use a tank that just softens the enemy so I can feed kills to my other units. That said, Ryoma is still worth using. Even if Hana can end up with more str and speed, Ryoma has 1-2 ranged which is a big advantage.

Vantage isn't that reliable, you know.

[Shoblongoo]

Do a no-grind lunatic run on birthright, and the endgame makes it very clear how top-of-the-pack Ryoma is. He's not perfect. Hes still going to get dicked by generals on enemy phase of running the raijinto to murk berserkers, and dicked by berserkers if running the dual katana to murk generals. But holy hell...you don't want to tackle that endgame without him.

[shadowofchaos]

9 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Wow, I fully expected to see the OP getting flamed to hell and back for 'daring' to even THINK about criticising the great, godlike Takumi, sue-st of all Mary Sues. (writing that almost made me throw up, just now)
My hope in humanity remains yet intact.
 

I can admit some of the criticisms here are viable...

But Mary sue?

Takumi is more human than any of the characters I've seen.

He has insecurities.

He has doubts. In the drama CD he is the first along with Saizou to doubt accepting Kamui/Corrin into the kingdom so openly.

He distrusts Kamui/Corrin because they got his mother KILLED.

Is that really Mary Sue ish to any extent?

If anything we can berate his character for being under the Corrin influence at the end of Conquest just like the rest of the cast.

Takumi is one of the few that brings reality of characters to the power fantasy that is Kamui/Corrin.

That is not being a Mary Sue by any extent.

I mean I might be missing your sarcasm here with the "writing that made me throw up" bit... But the way you're doing it in that case, you're making it sound like Mary Sue is a statement people use to praise him.

If you were mocking the Mary sue phrase you would have said the OP being flamed calling Takumi a Mary Sue... Not using it as a title.

You're pretty much coming off as confusing with your mocking and you can't blame me for taking you seriously above.

Edited October 10, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[DragonFlames]

27 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

I can admit some of the criticisms here are viable...

But Mary sue?

Takumi is more human than any of the characters I've seen.

He has insecurities.

He has doubts. In the drama CD he is the first along with Saizou to doubt accepting Kamui/Corrin into the kingdom so openly.

He distrusts Kamui/Corrin because they got his mother KILLED.

Is that really Mary Sue ish to any extent?

If anything we can berate his character for being under the Corrin influence at the end of Conquest just like the rest of the cast.

Takumi is one of the few that brings reality of characters to the power fantasy that is Kamui/Corrin.

That is not being a Mary Sue by any extent.

I mean I might be missing your sarcasm here with the "writing that made me throw up" bit... But the way you're doing it in that case, you're making it sound like Mary Sue is a statement people use to praise him.

If you were mocking the Mary sue phrase you would have said the OP being flamed calling Takumi a Mary Sue... Not using it as a title.

You're pretty much coming off as confusing with your mocking and you can't blame me for taking you seriously above.

I honestly have no idea why I wrote that the way I did, either. I should have put that elsewhere in my statement. Asthma medication does that to you, I guess.

Though yes, I will call Takumi a Mary Sue, since that is what he and his fellow Royals ultimately are. The entire world is praising them constantly no matter how stupid they or their decisions may be, the brothers all have OP weapons without needing to go through any trial whatsoever, they have retainers that constantly wipe their behinds - and here's Takumi, still complaining he doesn't get enough attention. Freaking Puh-lease.

Or maybe I got the definition of a Mary Sue wrong. That is also possible.

I never criticised Takumi for distrusting Corrin. I distinctly remember praising him for that. Though that praise was short-lived because apparently it is some sort of privilege to be allowed to say his name or something...

As for the insecurity stuff, I'll just say this: Insecurities are not an excuse to be an asshole to your general surroundings.

[joshcja]

BR has the lowest number of early seals.

That's the only reason I can think of to like him as a unit.

His personality is pretty human in one route.... but he's also a firstworldproblems posterchild. Shrug.

Edit: Never got the "you killed mom" thing. Spoileragi pops out of the aether jacks Corrins sword and blows up everyone including Corrin. Corrin lives because momshield was equipped. Spoileragi trys to finish the job and Corrin turns into a 4kids anime. The invisifuckers were even clearly visable here for the only time ever. Was Takumi off making a sandwich while shit went down? Not entirely certain how he could confuse this...

Edit again: Most +Mag Corrins can just walk casually through birthright lunatic nogrind because Vantage isn't Odinlocked. Camilia even hands out free vantage in ch23.

Edited October 10, 2017 by joshcja

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

Though yes, I will call Takumi a Mary Sue, since that is what he and his fellow Royals ultimately are. The entire world is praising them constantly no matter how stupid they or their decisions may be, the brothers all have OP weapons without needing to go through any trial whatsoever, they have retainers that constantly wipe their behinds - and here's Takumi, still complaining he doesn't get enough attention. Freaking Puh-lease.

 

If there are two whole families of them, are any of them really capable of being called the term?

I think it's just Fates wanting to focus in on families with Corrin being caught in a deeply personal struggle over which family to side with, and they overdid the focus. They gave each side a prim and proper royal Crown Prince, a strong big sis, an antisocial little bro, and a sweet little sis. The retainers weren't a terrible idea either, or the personal weapons. The former is realistic since you'd expect royalty to have loads of servants, and personal weapons in themselves are cool and add uniqueness to characters. But they overdid it. A near DV/First Blood monopoly, good personal skills, average to wicked growths, solid bases, nice weapons for the little bros, busted ones for the bigs (and nobody else save Corrin and Ophelia has personals weapons, and the princely weapons have infinite uses without any drawbacks). 

The royalty could have been handled better. Slash the retainer count, nix a few royals or make not all of them heroically good, add drawbacks to the personal weapons, expand the DV user pool, nerf their other gameplay boons.

 

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

I never criticised Takumi for distrusting Corrin. I distinctly remember praising him for that. Though that praise was short-lived because apparently it is some sort of privilege to be allowed to say his name or something...

Here's a tip- skip on the FE fanbase if they ruin your appreciation of the game! Or at least certain sites. Anything where "praise praise praise" and "damn damn damn" is without restrain, consider skipping. I don't think SF falls into this problem.

 

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

Do a no-grind lunatic run on birthright, and the endgame makes it very clear how top-of-the-pack Ryoma is. He's not perfect. Hes still going to get dicked by generals on enemy phase of running the raijinto to murk berserkers, and dicked by berserkers if running the dual katana to murk generals. But holy hell...you don't want to tackle that endgame without him.

This is my stance on Ryoma pretty much. Balanced between the extreme of "he's broken nothing stops him" and "he's awful Hana is the goddess"; just because he's No. 1 on BR doesn't mean he can't die- Marcus can die on HHM, but he is still the best.

I did manage to get through Lunatic BR without Ryoma on a Female-Only run. I forget how I survived Shura, but Spear Master Hinoka was ferried over to kill Hans (his battle is too brutal if you try to fight your way to him). I held in an alley with just Paired SpM Hinoka, Paired Dstone Corrin, and Sakura healing in between them fielded for Camilla 2. For Iago 2 I had Paired SpM Hinoka tank the left while everyone else cleared the right. I didn't get to slaying Garon, but it's clearly possible, if not that easy, to do BR Lunatic lategame without Ryoma. It's "enemies enemies enemies!" which defines the difficulty of late Lunatic BR.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[B.Leu]

I don't see what you are talking about babying Takumi, he is good right of the bat. :/
Maybe you are just unlucky.

Imo, I repeat, in my opinion, it's Leo who have a problem, he is like a very watered down version of Camilla. poor stats, bad promoted class. Camilla too is a magic knight type of character, but she is actually good at both, even if she is better at STR.
And his legendary weapons, while not bad, suffer from being compared to the others.
 

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Vantage isn't that reliable, you know.

It is, on Ryoma, or characters that are broken, great stats, great skills, 1-2 weapons, it is reliable 98% of the time.
You don't even need that unit to be a swordmaster. Just the above. Having Prf weapons that give +4 STR is just the cherry on top the cake.
If only other characters could wield those Prf weapons, so Mozu would have those Fujin Yumi power.
 

Story wise, Takumi have the dubious honor of not immediatly treating Corrin as if s/he was the best shit ever, I say dubious,
well, at first, the distrust is 100% reasonable, Corrin was raised by Nohrian, middle child, dad was killed, lalala, it's cool. Then simply put, it quickly goes out of hands. Like I said one or two years before, bad writing doesn't forgive more bad writing or something like that. And then, there is the trainwreck that is Conquest as whole.
And second, because he does eventualy treat Corrin like he was the best thing ever.

[Res]

27 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

I don't see what you are talking about babying Takumi, he is good right of the bat. :/

I agree; at least in Birthright, he usually saves Ch. 10 for me; for me it's a challenge to do it without him.

I do see that a lot of his viability is due to the Fuujin Yumi and yes, Mozu can be leveled to be his superior, but I've never not found Takumi to remain useful throughout hard, no-grind runs. Maybe he just suits my play-style better? I'm not always very patient so the fact he ignores terrain effects is a huge boon to me. I do also always keep him as a sniper, too. 

[Shadow Mir]

40 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

It is, on Ryoma, or characters that are broken, great stats, great skills, 1-2 weapons, it is reliable 98% of the time.
You don't even need that unit to be a swordmaster. Just the above. Having Prf weapons that give +4 STR is just the cherry on top the cake.
If only other characters could wield those Prf weapons, so Mozu would have those Fujin Yumi power.

In the same game that nerfed evasion and dodge tanking???  No. Just no. I don't see it as a big help unless you either get lucky with critical hits or get attacked by an enemy weak enough that you can one shot them before they get the chance to attack. Otherwise you're doing nothing but digging your unit's grave, as I see it.

 

 

40 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

in my opinion, it's Leo who have a problem, he is like a very watered down version of Camilla. poor stats, bad promoted class. Camilla too is a magic knight type of character, but she is actually good at both, even if she is better at STR.
And his legendary weapons, while not bad, suffer from being compared to the others.
 

>Says Camilla is actually good with both weapons and magic

>Camilla has a worse magic base than Leo has strength

You were saying?

[UNLEASH IT]

Takumi (or rather archers in general) are a mismatch with Birthright's map design

[eclipse]

I consider Leo to be one of the stronger units in Conquest.  He doesn't need much to get going (Speed tonic is one of them, might need a couple more disposables like that), but once he does, he'll hold his own and then some.

Likewise, I consider Takumi to be pretty strong in his own right.  Being able to fly through terrain without an arrow weakness is really cool.  He's not going to have solo-endgame stats, but what he has will serve him for most of his existence.