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Why does everyone think Takumi is so great?


Alastor15243
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A lot of it has to do with the fact that Takumi has a very powerful bow. If you compare the stats of a Silver bow/Yumi and Takumi's Fujin Yumi you will find that Takumi's bow is only marginally below that of Silver bows. In other words Takumi's bow ALMOST has the same stats as a silver bow with NONE of the drawbacks. Now Takumi is a base archer with decent stats but the reason he's good is largely due to his bow. If you could give the Fujin Yumi to either Mozu or Niles they would be just as good if not better. Now yes, Xander and Ryoma also have weapons that are almost as strong as silver BUT, they are promoted. And from the moment you get them, they are good regardless if they are using their signature weapons or an iron equivalent. Takumi on the other hand is not promoted and only shines when he's using his personal bow.

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3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

In the same game that nerfed evasion and dodge tanking???  No. Just no. I don't see it as a big help unless you either get lucky with critical hits or get attacked by an enemy weak enough that you can one shot them before they get the chance to attack. Otherwise you're doing nothing but digging your unit's grave, as I see it.

"
Well, this stategy works like a charm for me. Ryoma was such a big help for that reason in particuliar to the point where he could solo part of a lot of maps by himself. (well, paired with another character)

Obviously, you need a bunch of skill (Like say, Sol) for it to work. And that's without going on the other units who have vantage build.
I'm sorry, but this is a real thing, a real strategy, it works, and it was a big help on lunatic. Or maybe I'm just that lucky, but I don't think so. This very rarely fail. We are talking about a Swordmaster who have a ton a def, res and HP.

 

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

>Says Camilla is actually good with both weapons and magic

>Camilla has a worse magic base than Leo has strength

You were saying?


Man, I suck at arguments. I suck so much. :/
I explained myself poorly. My mistake. But how to explain it... Camilla, in her chapter, you use her, she is good at everything, she fly, and she is almost mandatory to have. More than that she have a good skillset. She level up fast.
Meanwhile, Leo in his chapter... is problematic, to me at least, he is all just magic, and his skillset is (imo) lackluster (again imo). And yeah,  he have +9 base magic compared to Camilla, but she is better in everything else, except for HP and not by much, and she come sooner than Leo. And her mag is still practical in certain situation.
It doesn't help that Leo's map is a pain.

Or maybe I was lucky slash unlucky with stats growth, that... that can happens. Or maybe it's just me. Agree to disagree ?
 

3 hours ago, Res said:

I agree; at least in Birthright, he usually saves Ch. 10 for me; for me it's a challenge to do it without him.

I do see that a lot of his viability is due to the Fuujin Yumi and yes, Mozu can be leveled to be his superior, but I've never not found Takumi to remain useful throughout hard, no-grind runs. Maybe he just suits my play-style better? I'm not always very patient so the fact he ignores terrain effects is a huge boon to me. I do also always keep him as a sniper, too. 

Oh yeah, I remember ! The ninja chapter that seems to have been made for Takumi to level up !
Personally, I prefer to take Takumi and Mozu as Sniper. They are really good. It help that the S-Rank Bow is actually a good weapon.

Edited by B.Leu
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4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

>Says Camilla is actually good with both weapons and magic

>Camilla has a worse magic base than Leo has strength

You were saying?

Bar for Magic is WAYYYYY lower than Bar for STR. A character with High STR and Middling Mag(Camilla) would definitely be better than character with High Mag and Middling STR(Leo) on both offenses. 

Level 15 Malig Camilla wielding Better Siegfried would have around the offense of Level 15 Camilla wielding +1 Iron Axe

Theres a good reason why all the Magic Weapons are stupid strong in Conquest, they took the innate power of Magic and double dip it with super high MT

 

 

But people had shit taste and did not use BERSERKER LEO anyway

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1 hour ago, B.Leu said:

Well, this stategy works like a charm for me. Ryoma was such a big help for that reason in particuliar to the point where he could solo part of a lot of maps by himself. (well, paired with another character)

Obviously, you need a bunch of skill (Like say, Sol) for it to work. And that's without going on the other units who have vantage build.
I'm sorry, but this is a real thing, a real strategy, it works, and it was a big help on lunatic. Or maybe I'm just that lucky, but I don't think so. This very rarely fail. We are talking about a Swordmaster who have a ton a def, res and HP.

Maybe it works for you, but I wouldn't expect it to work for me. Anyways, it sounds much more like a Russian Roulette-esque gimmick than a legitimate strategy. Also, Sol has definitely seen better days, as has Vantage itself.

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1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Maybe it works for you, but I wouldn't expect it to work for me. Anyways, it sounds much more like a Russian Roulette-esque gimmick than a legitimate strategy. Also, Sol has definitely seen better days, as has Vantage itself.

Well, Russian Roulette is a fun game...when you are risking the lives of characters of a video game, and not yours and tha they won most the time and that you have save-loading power. :p
It help that I make sure they can take it, healing, pair up, that kind of thing.

So yeah, agree to disagree then ?

Hail Margaret by the by. I'm sorry, I had to get it out of my chest sooner of later. Meg is an ultimate class waifu imo.

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20 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

 

Ryoma is actually busted. He's actually close to underrated if anything(because some people argued he's not that good because Saizo can be Ryoma). Saizo is good, but Ryoma is like

Heres how you make broken character in Fates

 

Step 1: Make it a Swordmaster

 

Step 2: Give it 1-2 Range weapon

 

 

No shit, Ryoma starts with both

Why don't you try a little experiment: Play Birthright and Conquest ironman. Any difficulty is fine, but I suggest at least hard. And then tell me with a straight face if you still think Ryoma is better than Xander or Leo. I'm betting you won't. Mark my words, do ironman once and you will never look at dodgetanks the same way again.

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I personally found Takumi more useful than Leo. To me Leo has the problem of being average across the board when Conquest really wants you to specialize. The Hoshidan units he has WA against are either incredibly dangerous to fight at range (Snipers) or absolute trash that any sword/magic user can pulverize (Oni Chieftains, Blacksmiths). The most dangerous Hoshidan units have high Spd and Res (Swordmasters, Master Ninjas, Falcon Knights), plus WA for the latter two, which means Leo does pants for damage against them. Unlike Xander his Defense isn't high enough to protect him, and his high Res is mostly worthless as Onmyojis can be killed extremely easily by Jakob, Felicia, and Kaze. In short, there's nothing Leo can really do outstandingly, and Conquest isn't a game that rewards balanced stats.

Takumi's not very fast either, but Nohrian units are generally slow, so he can still easily double. Since clubs and their associated units are for the most part bad, yumi become useful for taking out lances, not to mention sniping wyverns. Because of how squishy your units in BR are, softening up the enemies from range before finishing them off is important, so he finds more use there. He's fantastically handy in his join chapter and the one after it, plus Ch. 15 where he can freely run over the mountains to snipe Wolfskins and Ch. 23 where standing on the water allows for more flexibility in attacking. I tend to turn Mozu into a Spear Master, so he doesn't have much competition.

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47 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Why don't you try a little experiment: Play Birthright and Conquest ironman. Any difficulty is fine, but I suggest at least hard. And then tell me with a straight face if you still think Ryoma is better than Xander or Leo. I'm betting you won't. Mark my words, do ironman once and you will never look at dodgetanks the same way again.

Xander I can see though I disagree (as someone who does in fact pseudo-ironman Birthright, both on Hard and Lunatic). Leo though? Really? Leo's not even more durable than Ryoma before dodging is taken into account, except against magic, and Ryoma has far more offence. Thanks to Duelist's Blow, Ryoma's avoid on player phase can in fact get reliable (that is, in many cases enemy hit drops to zero with WTD), which is the only time I really count on it. Any enemy phase dodges are a nice bonus.

 

Anyway, Takumi is pretty good, but yeah, not amazing. Sure, he's probably one of the best archer/snipers in the series along with RD Shinon but that's damning with faint praise; just like Shinon, despite being good for his class, was outclassed by Ike/Titania/Haar/Gatrie/etc., so too is Takumi outclassed by Corrin/Ryoma/Hinoka/Scarlet/etc.

I think Takumi is slightly overrated for two reasons, one of which is that people overrate him because he's unusually good for his class; the other is that many people are allergic to using prepromos (unless they are both very good and have lots of plot importance like Ryoma or Camilla or Seth, and even then...) so they don't notice that another archer joins the chapter right after Takumi with better everything for a long time, and focus on the fact that Takumi is better than the mediocre/projecty Setsuna and Mozu.

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32 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Xander I can see though I disagree (as someone who does in fact pseudo-ironman Birthright, both on Hard and Lunatic). Leo though? Really? Leo's not even more durable than Ryoma before dodging is taken into account, except against magic, and Ryoma has far more offence. Thanks to Duelist's Blow, Ryoma's avoid on player phase can in fact get reliable (that is, in many cases enemy hit drops to zero with WTD), which is the only time I really count on it. Any enemy phase dodges are a nice bonus.

Not quite. Bushido may make it seem like that, but after a bit of training, Leo decisively comes out on top. Leo starts at a lower level, with an internal level that is five levels lower still just like with Camilla, and he still has an equal defense score and a superior defense growth, not to mention way better resistance base and growth. Leo will outpace Ryoma in the defense department very quickly since his experience gain will consistently taper off five levels later than it would for Ryoma or indeed any other normal character. He's a fantastic candidate for an eternal seal considering his internal level all but guarantees he'll hit level 20 with several maps to spare if you've been wise about your paralogue usage, so yes, he's all but guaranteed to be more durable than Ryoma.

Edited by Alastor15243
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26 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

so they don't notice that another archer joins the chapter right after Takumi with better everything for a long time

Ah Reina. She's what I call a balanced Jagen-like character. She's fragile from the very beginning and never gets better here, but suffices as a Yumi user. Her D base rank is worse than you'd hope, but it's usable.

At 20/20, she is only 2.5 Str less than Takumi. Although she lacks the great Quick Draw and the frivolities of Bowfaire, the Sniper crit boost, and the bonuses of an A/S rank. She is also bad at hitting between low Skill and Yumis being inaccurate (though few want Skill Books, so she can have them). But her Spd base and growth plus Darting Blow means she can double forever, and as a Kinshi she has flight, mobility, and can pop a Naginata once in a while (her personal skill helps here).

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9 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Ah Reina. She's what I call a balanced Jagen-like character. She's fragile from the very beginning and never gets better here, but suffices as a Yumi user. Her D base rank is worse than you'd hope, but it's usable.

At 20/20, she is only 2.5 Str less than Takumi. Although she lacks the great Quick Draw and the frivolities of Bowfaire, the Sniper crit boost, and the bonuses of an A/S rank. She is also bad at hitting between low Skill and Yumis being inaccurate (though few want Skill Books, so she can have them). But her Spd base and growth plus Darting Blow means she can double forever, and as a Kinshi she has flight, mobility, and can pop a Naginata once in a while (her personal skill helps here).

The thing about fates is that I find myself not wanting to use units like reina not because they're prepromotes, but because they can only support with Corrin. Ideally--if I'm not grinding but just trying to use all the resources and opportunities for growth that the campaign gives me optimally--I want my active roster to be a 50/50 split of males and females that can all pair off into S-supports, so that I can maximize the number of paralouges that I'm hitting and the number of gen 2 units that I'm unlocking. 

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19 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Not quite. Bushido may make it seem like that, but after a bit of training, Leo decisively comes out on top. Leo starts at a lower level, with an internal level that is five levels lower still just like with Camilla, and he still has an equal defense score and a superior defense growth, not to mention way better resistance base and growth. Leo will outpace Ryoma in the defense department very quickly since his experience gain will consistently taper off five levels later than it would for Ryoma or indeed any other normal character. He's a fantastic candidate for an eternal seal considering his internal level all but guarantees he'll hit level 20 with several maps to spare if you've been wise about your paralogue usage, so yes, he's all but guaranteed to be more durable than Ryoma.

 

Leo is only 2 internal levels lower than displayed, not 5 like Reina/Camilla.

Ryoma with Bushido active has 18 def at base level, while Leo has only 16. True, once Leo reaches the same effective level, he'll be only 0.2 points behind (though it's a definite negative that he needs to gain 4 extra levels to catch up; on Revelation he joins one chapter later to boot), and thus will indeed pull ahead by 1 point or so lategame. I would consider that 1 point barely noticeable, especially compared to the fact that Dark Knight Leo is relatively sluggish and is in far more danger of being doubled than Ryoma is.

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1 minute ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

Leo is only 2 internal levels lower than displayed, not 5 like Reina/Camilla.

Ryoma with Bushido active has 18 def at base level, while Leo has only 16. True, once Leo reaches the same effective level, he'll be only 0.2 points behind (though it's a definite negative that he needs to gain 4 extra levels to catch up; on Revelation he joins one chapter later to boot), and thus will indeed pull ahead by 1 point or so lategame. I would consider that 1 point barely noticeable, especially compared to the fact that Dark Knight Leo is relatively sluggish and is in far more danger of being doubled than Ryoma is.

It's the combination of good defense and resistance that makes him a reliable enemy-phase unit, since he has way more resistance than Ryoma does. Thanks for the clarification about the internal level though. Strange, it definitely felt like more than 2 levels. But yeah, while it's a close call, Leo still wins defensively in the long run and kicks Ryoma's ass in terms of resistance immediately, and also has a much more reliable and predictable dual guard pattern without astras and crits to throw it off.

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Fujin Yumi gives Pineapple instant Acrobat skill and is overall a good unit. Also, I find Tomato to be a very good unit, and easily the best mage in Conquest from my experience (apart from Ophelia when you pair Samurai Odin with Elise but since you have to use Odin at all to get her she suffers in availability.)

Edited by TheZakkAttack
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On 10/11/2017 at 10:36 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Xander I can see though I disagree (as someone who does in fact pseudo-ironman Birthright, both on Hard and Lunatic). Leo though? Really? Leo's not even more durable than Ryoma before dodging is taken into account, except against magic, and Ryoma has far more offence. Thanks to Duelist's Blow, Ryoma's avoid on player phase can in fact get reliable (that is, in many cases enemy hit drops to zero with WTD), which is the only time I really count on it. Any enemy phase dodges are a nice bonus.

 

Anyway, Takumi is pretty good, but yeah, not amazing. Sure, he's probably one of the best archer/snipers in the series along with RD Shinon but that's damning with faint praise; just like Shinon, despite being good for his class, was outclassed by Ike/Titania/Haar/Gatrie/etc., so too is Takumi outclassed by Corrin/Ryoma/Hinoka/Scarlet/etc.

I think Takumi is slightly overrated for two reasons, one of which is that people overrate him because he's unusually good for his class; the other is that many people are allergic to using prepromos (unless they are both very good and have lots of plot importance like Ryoma or Camilla or Seth, and even then...) so they don't notice that another archer joins the chapter right after Takumi with better everything for a long time, and focus on the fact that Takumi is better than the mediocre/projecty Setsuna and Mozu.

Eh honestly after playing the series a lot, i'd put Takumi below FE12 Archers. He's still on the upper side though. Not at the insane level that Gordin is(who is bar none the best Archer the series ever had), but Top 5/6

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I've played FE12 much less than I have most other games in the series (just twice) but I didn't find archers too useful when I did, same meh offensive stats and no melee counter as always. Is this specific to Lunatic Reverse (which does have a specific mechanic that makes archers more useful), or is it true in the game in general in your opinion?

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5 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I've played FE12 much less than I have most other games in the series (just twice) but I didn't find archers too useful when I did, same meh offensive stats and no melee counter as always. Is this specific to Lunatic Reverse (which does have a specific mechanic that makes archers more useful), or is it true in the game in general in your opinion?

Ryan is just really good.

Also Archer = Hunter for better overall stats and ponybow with lunatic reclassing unlocked. #EarlyBowForge.

Edited by joshcja
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35 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I've played FE12 much less than I have most other games in the series (just twice) but I didn't find archers too useful when I did, same meh offensive stats and no melee counter as always. Is this specific to Lunatic Reverse (which does have a specific mechanic that makes archers more useful), or is it true in the game in general in your opinion?

 

Generally the problem of Archer comes from:

1. They can't counter at enemy phase

This is an advantage in FE12, where a lot of time making lines to reduce enemy phase exposure is an effective strategy. FE12 practically have no enemy phase, because if you get hit like 2-3 times you likely died the most it gets is 1 unit intercepting 1 enemy

Granted this is without factoring Kris. Super Kris would be hilariously good in enemy phase early on, especially after CH4 promotion(my most recent run was doing this with Ryan, so its definitely possible). I haven't used Kris, but its kinda obvious he can reach 14 speed early, makes Ch 1 and 3 trivial, and promotes at ch 4 to cheese until ch8.

2. EXP

Mind i don't think i ever played FE12 in any mode but Lunatic, but as far as FE12 Lunatic goes, Archers had the easiest time getting EXP.  Prologue Athena, Ryan basically get shit tons of EXP by chipping/finishing behind the walls. Enemy EXP is just generally high so their 1 kill per turn isn't much of a deal as in other series(Thieves gave you 50 EXP a pop, and chip EXP is 12 which is huge). Chapter 1, they have safer time killing in 2 range. Chapter 2, you have Dracoknight showing here that Arran 3HKO, and your Cavalier would likely fare badly against so you definitely want an Archer preferably with Forged Bow. Chapter 3, is famous for its Dracoknight spam. Chapter 4 is the first time the main game did not have Archer bias. Chapter 5, 4 more Dracoknights

EXP simply won't become an issue. And for what it worth Base Arena exists to catch up the rest

3. Offense

In regards to FE12, this is actually the reverse. Cavalier had worse offense than Archers, in a sense that all of them: dies in 2 hits, kills in 2-3 hits but Cavalier need to take a hit to attack regardless while Archers are safely attacking at 2 range, and both of them would had a hard time reaching 14 Speed Benchmark. The reccomended investment in Chapter 1 of FE12 is to make a forged Bow in preparation to Chapter 2, as a result, I dare say Archers class is actually heavily contested in FE12, where almost every unit would rather be an Archer than Cavalier.

Palla and Caeda happened because their base stats is even more ridiculous than Draug

Mid game, Cavalier gets 1 speed on promotion. Draco gets 0 on promotion. The most likely way you can get doubling offense on the 18-19 speed enemies without using the monster speed trio(Caeda, Palla, Kris) is through Sniper Reclass(who gets 5 speed on promotion) or SM, both of which laugh at weapon rank requirements with their Auto C Rank. I guess we can agree Sniper did not have offense issue?

 

Also Javelin in FE12 is like 3 MT. Which is actually huge. Its 4 MT less from FE11. Considering 1-2 enemies isnt uncommon in FE12, Bows are the best choice to intercept them because of much higher MT

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
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On 10.10.2017 at 6:40 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

If there are two whole families of them, are any of them really capable of being called the term?

I think it's just Fates wanting to focus in on families with Corrin being caught in a deeply personal struggle over which family to side with, and they overdid the focus. They gave each side a prim and proper royal Crown Prince, a strong big sis, an antisocial little bro, and a sweet little sis. The retainers weren't a terrible idea either, or the personal weapons. The former is realistic since you'd expect royalty to have loads of servants, and personal weapons in themselves are cool and add uniqueness to characters. But they overdid it. A near DV/First Blood monopoly, good personal skills, average to wicked growths, solid bases, nice weapons for the little bros, busted ones for the bigs (and nobody else save Corrin and Ophelia has personals weapons, and the princely weapons have infinite uses without any drawbacks). 

The royalty could have been handled better. Slash the retainer count, nix a few royals or make not all of them heroically good, add drawbacks to the personal weapons, expand the DV user pool, nerf their other gameplay boons.

Yes. Thank you! That's exactly how I feel about the Royals as well. They overdid it.

Here's a tip- skip on the FE fanbase if they ruin your appreciation of the game! Or at least certain sites. Anything where "praise praise praise" and "damn damn damn" is without restrain, consider skipping. I don't think SF falls into this problem.

I meant more that Takumi himself says to some people (Corrin, Azura, Zola, maybe Leo, too) to stop calling him by name because they didn't 'earn the right' to do so. Though your tip is duly noted.

 

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I actually like the royals and how great they are. Much better than the cast of nobodies that the story for the most part ignores which is how I feel about most FE casts. I like having several powerful characters with unique weapons or connections to the main lord.

Edited by wissenschaft
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